Mark:

Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization. Through thoughtful conversations.

It’s interesting to um Recognize that this what we offer is just a snippet.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But yeah, as we have these conversations It’s like my mind continues to ruminate in some ways and say, okay, where does that come from? How come This happens or why do I see it this way? Or oh wow, we really didn’t even get into the you know the neuropathways that are created you know those kind of things and you recognize how complex certain words are.

Justin:

Which word?

Mark:

Well you think of humor and it’s like Okay, it’s just being able to tell a joke. You know what I’m saying? But then as you talk about it for 45 minutes, you recognize how it’s developed over time. you you recognize how you learn it out in age appropriate manners. You know, and it and I and the other part and Maybe you know part of where I’m is is that is the word power. It’s like I not even necessarily uh feeling that we can uh the it it’s so complex you feel inadequate to basically take one word and describe it in such a way that it it that covers all the nuances.

Justin:

Right. Especially in 40, 45 minutes.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

We just scratch the surface.

Mark:

That’s exactly it.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But yeah, I think part of that is the ability to be able to say, okay, yeah, well at least we scratch the surface. And other people who might hear, who might might continue to listen, um, can take that and say, okay. Huh, I hadn’t thought about it like that. Because I think that’s what this is between you and I, you know. Cause like even even in that ability to say, you know, in that lot the humor podcast sarcasm.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

We didn’t have necessarily the same

Justin:

definition. Yeah.

Mark:

So to be able to have that conversation that says, okay, this is how I see sarcasm. Yeah. Yeah, sarcasm. This is how I see power. This is how I see God. This is how I see you know, family life.

Justin:

Yeah, and and you know, talking again back to sarcasm. To get to a closer version of the truth, right? Like in that conversation, it’s like there’s nuance to sarcasm in recognizing that sometimes when I use the word sarcastic or sarcasm. Some people will immediately hear that to my kids, I say, oh great job.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Way to go, you know. And it’s like, no, that’s I would never condone that. It’s certainly not humor to me.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

You know? And uh Yeah, but just that nuance and understanding that every every word is loaded and you know, for every person and sometimes we get so offended both ways, right? Sometimes we’re offended at their use of a certain word and like obviously they’re this then.

Mark:

Mm-hmm. Right?

Justin:

And it’s ’cause our perspective or s our chasm is is that way one way. And and then sometimes we can get offended like how dare you say I’m like that to my kids. I would never do that. You just said you’d do that, right? Like and this this give and take uh where the truth is somewhere in the middle, right? Like

Mark:

Yeah. And I and I guess and I and it’s I’m not trying to make it relative. But I think, you know, that’s that’s where unearthing, you know, mining and being able to wrestle with, you know, okay, where does this come from? And is it true? Is it, you know, is this a bent? You know, is it a gener a generational thing that I’ve just learned as true? And yet I need a I need a pattern to help me understand what straight really is.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Versus being bent in a certain fashion.

Justin:

I like that old bench. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Cause I think that I think a lot of the the words we use bring a personal bent to them.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

That we don’t even always it’s it’s it’s part of that um Well I you know as we as we develop our vocabulary, you know, I look I look at things, you know, almost like they’re they’re the schemas, if you will, the little pictures that we have that represent all those words in our mind.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah yeah.

Mark:

So it’s like, you know, it’s in some ways I think this is about rewriting or you know redrafting some of those pictures, those schemas that we have that say, okay, this is what power looks like. This is what and I and I think that’s what that’s what makes even that word you know if we if if you will power It’s like it’s gonna depend on what my experience has been with power. You follow me? It’s like is it is it a point where I’ve grown up where might makes right? Cause that’s a bent.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Or is it or is it a a matter of where where I’ve come out of an abusive home or situation and I will never have power? Or I can never

Justin:

or power represents danger.

Mark:

Yes. Right. Yes. But yet even in hurt people, hurt people. It’s something that I attain I desire to attain. I want to get me some of that someday. When I grow up, nobody’s ever gonna do that to me. And therefore I just bring this this bent. you know, into that view of what power is and I think that’s what makes it, you know, complicated.

Justin:

Yeah, ’cause i if you think about it in terms of it being danger, right? Like a as a young person dealing with abuse in one way or another, power represents danger. And like you said, when I get old, I want to be the danger.

Mark:

Yeah. Right?

Justin:

I don’t want to ever experience that feeling again. I want to be on top.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I want to be the day. Because in that spectrum, yeah, that’s the safe side.

Mark:

Sure, yes I view that as the safe side and to allow people to hurt me. And not not in an abusive sense, but in the process, in the aspect of being wronged. I think that’s the danger there, is because I can never allow myself to be wronged. When I have that viewpoint.

Justin:

Because it represents getting back to that other

Mark:

it represents that that part of my life when I was powerless. Now I’m perceiving that I have something in this w form of power. So anything that represents that prior powerlessness. becomes very confusing and it and it’s and it’s almost react is scary. Reactive is the word I was going to use.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

And I and I think, you know, uh for me, even the how our culture has defined words You know, what is what is what is power look like? I think, you know, we can look at it from a you know uh political, we can look at it from an ethnic, we can look at it from a gender. you know, perspective and say, you know, well that’s not right, or, you know, I need some of that And I I think the the attainment of it is empty.

Justin:

Hmm Yeah. Yeah, tipping the scales still means the scales are off balance, right?

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I I mean I’m I’m processing what you said in that tipping the scales. And yeah, I’m not to say that’s not to say that the scales are always balanced either. And sometimes, yeah, they probably need to be tipped. But yet tipping for the sake of tipping.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

versus truth and being able to define, you know, things, words, and say, okay, what does that mean to you? What is that? And I and I think even there again with the the word power versus the word powerless, if you will, two sides of a scale. You know, I’m one end of the continuum. I’m I’m the king.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Authoritative end of the scale. And then on the passive or powerless end of the scale, it’s like that can be a a negative thing.

Justin:

Yeah, I’m in the dungeon of the the castle.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

The other side of that equation Yeah.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

When reality is clo a closer is closer to us being both.

Mark:

Yes. Right.

Justin:

And I think about Victor Frankel, who was a psychiatrist who

Mark:

He came to mind earlier as well. Did he?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

He got put in a pr uh you know prison camp, Nazi prison camp.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Endured insane, you know, di difficulties, right? And, you know, after he wrote some books and wrote some stuff, but one of the things he’s he basically said is that he has the power to decide his response to a situation, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And so in between stimulus and response, we have the power to choose what our response is. In other words Input doesn’t have to equal output.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I can step in the middle there and choose and so in his context it was I can let them steal my freedom. I can let them steal my power. I can let them have what they believe they’re taking from me.

Mark:

Yeah. Or

Justin:

I don’t have to. You may have me locked in a cage, but I still have my freedom.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

I can think what I want. I can you know within the confines of what this cage I can do what I want. Like You can’t change me from the inside out. You don’t have that power.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

You know? And I think yeah. So I think about

Mark:

that person, that individual, is never powerless at that point. point.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

That’s the that’s the beauty of it.

Justin:

That’s the beauty of the the the dichotomy, right? They’re both true. You will always have that power. uh you in an abusive relationship you’ll always have the power to say no I won’t endure this and and you know, take your steps towards the door or whatever. Now I of course I don’t want to simplify this too much.

Mark:

Nope, I hear you.

Justin:

I understand that. Yeah.

Mark:

You’re sensitive to those who are in an abusive situation.

Justin:

Right. I understand it’s not always that simple. But I just want to say like we we always have power. We don’t have to give it away.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And then on the flip side, we’re always powerless Hmm. We can walk out the door and a tree could fall on us, right? Or I could get in the car and like I talked about my friend earlier, get in a car and get in a car accident, get out of my car after the accident, get hit by another car and Did I plan that that is it that is that within my power to control? Of course not.

Mark:

Or your power to avoid.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

No, I’m completely powerless to that and in any given point I may feel a relationship is at a certain state where another person doesn’t. And I’m powerless to control other people’s thoughts.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Other people’s behaviors. Other people’s interactions with me. But I’m fully powerful in how I respond back to them. Or I’m not because I gave it up, right? And that’s where reactivity comes. comes in the play versus but just the reality is so nuanced and it’s a dichotomy that we’re always powerful and we’re always powerless and understanding that balance is so important. Right?

Mark:

Yeah, and it and it I think for me personally, you know That is some that’s a view that has been learned over time as well. Because I don’t think in who I was as a young teenager, young man, it’s like I was desiring I think I was desiring that power. You know, it’s like no b nobody ever, you know, grows up desiring to be you know, the the abused person.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You know, we want to be black belts, we want to be, you know, football players or, you know, and then granted I’m saying this as a male, you know, it’s like, you know, but I d even even females, even you know, other individuals, I don’t think anybody desires to lose what power they have. But yeah, I’m also recognizing that As I attain, you know, more abilities, I’ll say, you know, there is more responsibility. that goes along with that. So as I’m offered opportunity or power, however you want to describe it, you know, I think there’s a responsibility that goes along with that. And It’s something that I can share. It’s something that I can give away. You know, in the in sense that says it’s okay. You know, follow me in in the in the sense that I don’t have all the answers and I am, I too am powerless in these situations. And I think, you know, that is a learning. that comes with time is to be able to recognize that yes, I am powerless. I can’t short of my ability to uh my heart to beat, my lungs to breathe, I can’t generate any more air, you know, than I currently can. You know, that kind of thing. I don’t know.

Justin:

And you’re dependent on your lungs so doing what they do.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

You’re not deciding.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

And that, you know, and there are many things like that that happen.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That I am powerless over Fortunately, I’d say. By God’s grace.

Justin:

Yes. Hmm.

Mark:

So yeah.

Justin:

And that’s where I mean that’s where we miss um how much power Is God, right? Like

Mark:

sure.

Justin:

And again, I’m not waking up every morning saying, okay, lungs, remember you gotta do this. And uh you know, knees, make sure you You move this way, not that way, you know.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

All these things and I’m not, you know, reminding you know, my my legs how to Locomote, right?

Mark:

Sure. Yeah.

Justin:

Is that a word?

Mark:

Yes, it’s all good with it. It is now

Justin:

Webster. Uh right. Like I’m not making these conscious decisions and you know, also like I’m not telling the boards above me to not cave and fall in on me. I’m not telling, you know, the meteors is to stop hitting the earth, you know, or avoid us, right? Somebody is. And that’s where we m miss it. Like believers, atheists alike. Something’s keeping it all together The Bible says in him we m we live and move and have our being, right? Like

Mark:

sure

Justin:

uh there’s there’s a power that we have access to that’s beyond ourselves, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I think we can talk about, you know, our our personal power all day long, but if we miss that, you know, then we’re missing the most important capability that we have

Mark:

sure

Justin:

on this earth, which is to tap into the supernatural power, right?

Mark:

Sure. So I’m gonna ask I’m gonna ask Justin, how much are you thinking about CR at this moment? while we’re having this conversation.

Justin:

It’s a good question. Uh so the joke it well so the second lesson Of celebrating recovery. The first lesson is denial. Because until you get a denial, there’s no moving forward. But the second lesson is powerless. Stop

Mark:

stop with denial for just a moment though. Isn’t that to a a great degree? what we were talking about with that abuse of power or you know what I mean that

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

the I that I can on my own

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

I have this power.

Justin:

I can do it.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

I can quit anytime, Mark.

Mark:

That’s right. You just don’t understand. I can quit anytime I decide to. I want to

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Although I’ve had this same pattern in my life for 60 years.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But I can decide anytime I want to. That in and of itself would be denial.

Justin:

Denial, yep.

Mark:

Not a river in Egypt, as they say, but yeah.

Justin:

Well, and denial comes in so many flavors in like we like we were just talking about power being a dichotomy.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You can have denial that you’re powerless But you can also have denial that you have power, you have responsibility, you should choose a different response, right?

Mark:

Like

Justin:

and so a lot of times denial is coming in the form of like I can’t do anything about it. I’m powerless over this situation. It’s like, well you could put your shoes on and walk out the door Or you could just not drive into that parking lot. Right? Or you could call that person who said, Call me anytime you need, because I know, you know, whatever, I know you need some support. You could pick up the phone and call that person.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um, you could put um meetings in place in your life where every Tuesday morning or Wednesday morning in our case I’m at this place at this time meeting with this person.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Because I know it’s gonna uh be an accountability situation for me.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, and so denial comes in both forms of I I have all the power, I don’t need anyone’s help and I don’t have any power and I can’t control anything and have you know

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Denial covers all of that ground, you know?

Mark:

Yep. And I think that’s where I’m is it’s this ability to learn because I do I think I think I think power is multifaceted. Because I may have power in this realm, but I may feel powerless in this realm.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I may feel powerless over my finances. Depending on where I’m at. Or I may feel I may be on that verge of um I’m trying to uh s not sacrilegious, but where I think I know it all where religion is concerned. There’s a word for that. But yeah, you know, in a in a spiritual realm you know, I got it all figured out. You know, there isn’t a you know, so I think that’s that’s the multifaceted part. You know, because some areas it it may be comfortable for me. Other areas aren’t going to be comfortable for me to recognize that dichotomy between power and powerless but yet back to Victor our buddy Victor you know it’s like am I That far in either direction. And yes, I still have a choice to put my shoes on. I still have a choice to open up that book. You know, I still have an opportunity to learn and take baby steps in such a way that says, okay, this isn’t how it has to be. This is where this is who I am, but that’s not who I have to be.

Justin:

I’ll be honest, I didn’t hear the last couple sentences because I’m trying to figure out who our buddy Victor is.

Mark:

Victor Frankel. Victor Frankel. Sorry. Yeah. Sorry, I that was just, you know, we I I was yes, he had come to mind as you should

Justin:

He is my buddy, I’ll give you that. Yeah.

Mark:

Is he still living?

Justin:

I don’t know.

Mark:

I don’t think I don’t think he is. Concentration camp.

Justin:

He made it out of there. He did it.

Mark:

He wrote some wonderful books.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. He did it. I just I you know I forgot that detail that it’s my buddy.

Mark:

That’s okay. Sorry I lost you there.

Justin:

You didn’t say like I say. I did not. So I missed the connection.

Mark:

I didn’t say I hear you either yet. But that being said back to we were at the first denial, first data. So so going now, sorry, I d now now go forward Justin as well.

Justin:

So once I mean that’s the whole thing is like again if you can’t if you can’t step away from yourself and look back and go, Where am I missing it?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That that that’s a recognition that’s that’s getting through some denial. If you know you you can’t progress. But once you get past that then the very next thing we we put in front of you is, okay, guess what, kid? You’re powerless. Right? And it’s so I mean I think it’s counterintuitive. to come to a recovery program and the second thing you hear about is how you’re powerless ’cause it’s like, well, what the flip? How am I supposed to get better? Like this is how’s this supposed to help me? Well it’s like

Mark:

It’s offensive.

Justin:

Yes. It’s offensive and it’s also d depending on your paradigm of power, scary.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Is it I talking about that person who ‘s power represented danger and I finally got that power and I’m the danger and you’re saying I don’t have that or I have to r give it up. Ah you know like I don’t know if this thing’s worth it, right? Like

Mark:

Yeah. I’m not sure I want to come back here.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

I’m not sure I want to deal with that.

Justin:

Yeah, and so what we are what we’re always trying to encourage people to understand is This is a step-based program

Mark:

,

Justin:

right? And we’re not gonna leave you here, but it’s important to start here.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah, it’s important to recognize where I am powerless.

Justin:

It’s important to recognize that you are powerless to on your own, right? To dig your way out of the mess you’ve gotten into.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And recognize That you need help.

Mark:

Yeah, it’s it’s almost it’s to that point of I need to be able to recognize there is another source of power. Or there is the ability to have this power infused into me because I don’t have the ability on my own to generate it.

Justin:

Hmm. That’s yeah.

Mark:

And I think I think uh the you know uh I think it’s John 15 where he talks about, you know, he uh we he is the vine and we are the branches.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and how that his power is able to flow into us when we recognize we need it as a source. Because all we’re doing is basically wilting on the vine by saying, I don’t need, I don’t need nurturing. I don’t need I don’t need your power, thank you. I got this And yeah, I’m wilting on the vine, having all of the resources available to me, all the power, if you will, available to me. I just have to be able to recognize that I’m powerless to be able to do it on my own.

Justin:

And it’s ironic when we s when we have that thought of that, you know, or like when we’re just Disregarding his power, right? When again, ironically, if we’re like, I don’t need that power, thank you. Okay, well, good luck keeping your heart beating

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Good luck keeping that wood above your your head from caving in while you sleep. Good luck keeping the meteors away. Yeah. And yet, you know, it makes me think of that verse that the Bible says, God is not slow concerning his promise but he has I gotta look it up. Because I’m gonna But butcher it. Um but he’s patient, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And he’s patient with Go ahead. No. You finish it that way.

Mark:

Well no, I’m just I’m just saying he’s not in a hurry to change us.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

He is able to he’s I able to wait on the power is always right there.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And it’s and it’s like plugging into the outlet in the wall.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

It’s always there.

Justin:

And I guess I mu the point I was trying to make is his power isn’t removed from us because we don’t believe it, or else we would wilt.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? And that’s where I was thinking about the Lord is not slow and keeping his promise as some understand slowness. In other words, he’s not slow to respond to our s you know uh uh our I guess pride, right? Um he is patient with you not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord uh will come like a thief as you look forward to the got day of god and speed it’s coming. But but the whole thing there is like he’s not slow in responding to our arrogance.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

He’s patient and it’s comes from a place of love and it comes from a place of just wait because you’re gonna come back to this and you’re gonna remember Remember when I said I don’t need your power?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I now recognize how much I need it, you know?

Mark:

Daily.

Justin:

Daily, yes. and how much you’ve granted it to me to so many degrees that I couldn’t even fathom before. And I thought it was all just me being independent and powerful on my own. But really, you’re the one again keeping my heart beating.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Keeping the cars from slamming into me on the the highway. Like I don’t have control over all this. You’re the one who keeps my spouse loving me, you know? Like I know me and they shouldn’t love me, right? Yeah. And uh Yeah. So I just think I don’t know that verse came to mind, but his patience, right?

Mark:

Yeah. And I and I think that that slow part In the process. He’s not slow in his process. It’s our view of him being slow in the process. That’s what makes it a step program.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I have to do my part on the individual steps and yet it’s it becomes a process and in our in our momentary circumstance we want instantaneous change So yes, from a view of have desiring instantaneous change, just take it away. You know, I don’t want to go through the work of having to deal with this. His process is slow. Mm-hmm.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

But yet it’s beneficial and he is patient. And it’s not about us being able to, you know, have the power on our own. It’s about us being able to recognize that the power is available to us and his desire is to do it in us through us like like we talked about dynamic power You know, our our word, what was it, our word for dynamite, you know, that’s the word that describes the Holy Spirit is that dynamo power, but yet we tend to think of it as dynamite, but no, you know, the word for power, you know, in that sense is 2,000 years old versus 200 years old.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So the 200 is I have the ability to do what needs to be done in you, this dynamic power. It’s not just a linear power that blows everything out of the way because that’s what we want.

Justin:

Right, right.

Mark:

Okay, God, slay my enemies.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

But no, he works in my heart in a dynamic way. He doesn’t just blow things up. He works in and around and through our circumstances in a dynamic way that no dynamite type power ever could. And I think that’s the, you know, when we understand dynamic power versus the dynamite power You know, that’s that’s that’s a powerful thing.

Justin:

Yeah, it is, yeah. It’s so good.

Mark:

Because he’s working in and around and through my circumstances. To in this patient, loving, and kind way, that’s not just go before me and slay my enemies. It’s like, okay, there’s a process here And I can trust you in the process and you working through me produces change. And I think that’s yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, and if you’re if you are able to reflect, right, and look at the landscape of your life and see how Essentially he moved heaven and earth to get you to this moment in time. Again, it takes it takes the ability to see, which he grants. And I think perspective for

Mark:

such a time as this.

Justin:

But to be able to see how all those things lined up to put you like you said, for such a time as this, to put you here right now in this situation to do what you’re doing.

Mark:

With these gifts.

Justin:

Right. compare that power to be able to manipulate all those situ if if you believe in God’s sovereignty and how he folds all these pieces of your life together to produce this one result, this one day, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Compare that to dynamite power, like boom.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

You know, the face of the mountain’s gone and it’s like, that was powerful but there wasn’t a control there was you know

Mark:

yeah where

Justin:

the like you said that dynamic power that that he has naturally you know is immensely more powerful because it is perfectly controlled.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

So as we as we describe this this dynamic power, uh Jess, I’m gonna turn it towards you just a little bit can you remember share however you want a a time when that dynamic power was just so evident in your personal life

Justin:

Hmm.

Mark:

I realize that’s a big question. I just threw I just threw it at you

Justin:

Well, I mean we we briefly touched on some of the things when we talked about the Holy Spirit

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

You recall

Mark:

your conversation with Megan and s and that kind of thing? Was that in that one?

Justin:

Yeah, uh not necessarily Megan, it was just with with certain people where

Mark:

Oh yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Where the results And even mid-conversation, it was clear, like you said, there’s a dynamic power here that’s coming from outside of myself. It is an infusing to use the word you mentioned earlier.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

The vine is clearly, you know, I’m clearly attached to the vine and it is flowing through me to the degree where I I’m happy to not take credit, but also happy to be the branch that it’s flowing through today, right? Like that balance of um so that’s the first thing that comes to mind is just certain conversations or difficult decisions that had to be made that were made made easy because of a dynamic power and were typically that same conversation, that same decision, that same situation would be immensely difficult.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know what I mean?

Mark:

I do. I know it’s and it’s funny that you as you share, I have a sp uh a memory comes to my mind. It’s like um Chris and I, my wife, we we built a house in upstate New York prior to moving here. And I can remember uh in in the process of building that house it was just it was it was a task and it was but yet it was something we felt called to do It was something that we, you know, we had just looked at houses and, you know, and everything was so expensive. And it’s like crying out loud, we can take these same resources. And we can make our own house with the same money or less money than it would cost to buy a house under this market. And so we endeavored and we had great family support in the whole process. But I just remember, you know, the work that I did in my in, you know. uh just organizing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, you know, just the the not not in an arrogant sense, but you know, taking the steps that I needed to take. And I can remember this one morning and it was just it was just I had prepared to get the shingles on the roof because we were, you know, we had a wedding coming up and we were gonna be going away. I just wanted to be able to get these shingles on the roof, get them down so, you know, weather, you know, it’s just it’s just it’s um it’s a hurdle, you know, when a house is under roof. You know, there’s a I can breathe. And I uh remember I was prepped, I’d gotten there early, and I had a boom truck, you know, ready to be able to Boom the shingles to the second story, you know, that morning at you know eight o’clock. So I was there, I was pumped, I was ready, you know, just waiting for that boom truck to show up. And it’s like phone rings, you know, and flip phone back in those days. I open it up, it’s like the company. Nope. We’re not gonna be able to get you your shingles. today the boom trucks down it’s like crap I’m powerless what am what I can’t I can’t get mad at them things break You know?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Um, and it’s like, and I hung up the phone and I mean I was I just felt defeated.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

It’s like all this preparation, all this time, and Ha yeah. Um I looked down the driveway just like 15 minutes later and uh my friend, a friend of mine, on that Friday morning, he uh He chose, he said, I’m not doing anything today. I’ll come up and help Mark put his shingles on his roof. And not only did my friend come to help But my friend owned an autobody shop. And uh he had he had a Mustang and he had a rollback. And he said uh he came rumbling up the driveway and he said, and I told him my story and uh He says, well, you know, he says, I was thinking about bringing the Mustang this morning, but it must have been God that shows me that told me I needed to bring the roll back. He says, there’s no reason we we we can’t drive my truck down to that place. Put have them load your shingles on. We’ll put them all the way to the front and we can lift the roll back up and we can get the shingles off the front of the rollback lifted up onto the porch roof of y of house and we were able to shingle that whole front porch, get shingles up on the main roof. And it was just that was that was a moment for me when I just understood I mean it was a reality for me that there was this power that was so much bigger than my circumstances. And it was in that moment that he desired to make that evident to me. You know, and I just, and I just. It’s just one of those things in moments when I’m thinking I am powerless that I can be thankful for that because just because I am. Doesn’t mean that God is powerless, you know, in that moment. And it’s and I think that’s where scripture comes into play. You know, in our weakness, he is strong. And he’s always strong.

Justin:

Yes. Yeah.

Mark:

And that and it’s that that’s and so even as I apologize, I threw that question at you that was deep, but it was like Yeah, that that moment is one that still comes back to me every now and then when I’m thinking about it. It’s like, okay, it’s not me. The the boom trucks down. You know, what am what am what am I supposed to do? It’s like, hold on Just just a second.

Justin:

Help is on the

Mark:

help is help is already help has been released already. Yeah, dispatched. Help has already been dispatched And it’s not something that I have to control. And it’s not a reflection or there’s nothing wrong with me. It’s not a reflection of who I am when I don’t have the ability. There’s nothing wrong with me. And if anything, it’s a part of who I am. And it allows God to be my father. Who basically says, okay, talk with me About that problem. Because, you know, I’m bigger than any of the problems that you have, but what you have to do it differently. You can’t just do the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. You can’t ha you can’t take that same problem. It’s w what were you thinking? I saw the I saw the gears turn in there for a moment.

Justin:

Uh

Mark:

still.

Justin:

Just as you They don’t stop

Mark:

right now.

Justin:

Um No, just as you were sharing that story, I was just trying to think about other times of my life where I felt that it’s a profound sense of he’s bigger and he’s in control, right?

Mark:

And

Justin:

It’s interesting, like uh my theol theologically I transitioned um in my late teens. before you know a little bit before I got married I guess maybe college years from free will and mm, my power to do and accomplish and be righteous and all that to a much stronger understanding of God’s sovereignty.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And at the time I was going to uh a church, John Piper’s church, and John Piper is, you know, he’s a modern-day theologian who writes about God’s sovereignty. 24-7, right? Like this it’s his passion topic. And um and so I started to experience a whole nother side, you know, theology of like, oh He can and will do whether I do or don’t. You know, and

Mark:

Yeah. Whether I can or can’t.

Justin:

Yeah. And there was a a distinct shift where all of a sudden it was like the the dark you know how sometimes y some sunglasses, right? They’re very dark.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

And they’re only good in a very specific circumstance. Like you’re staring in the sun, you’re on a dune in the Sahara, and like those are the right. Right, exactly. But every other time it’s like these are overkill, you know? And It felt like taking those off and looking at the situations around me. And my car would break down and it’d go Oh, you got this. You wanted this to happen. You’re in control.

Mark:

Alright,

Justin:

what do you got for me today? What does this mean? Like how can I you know and it was like for a good s couple years I would say it felt like it was that clear whenever anything would go wrong. It used to be, what am I doing wrong?

Mark:

How did

Justin:

how are my sins catching up to me?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And it transitioned to, oh, okay, I bet you got something in this. And I’m looking forward to seeing what it is.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And just a complete shift there and a trust, right?

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

And you know, that’s been it’s been a while twenty years.

Mark:

Years.

Justin:

Yeah. Since that moment and it’s it’s not that clear anymore. Like I still I I put some glasses back on. I would say they’re not as dark. But and and but but because of that time the proof was given to me. And so now even though I don’t feel it like I felt it then like it would just be this profound feeling of like cool like what are we gonna do here? Like God you know, like let’s see what he’s got planned. I was given the gift of the the truth, the proof. And so now I carry that with me and I still know that’s true. The feelings don’t always come for free. But it’s like I know there’s something to this. I know he’s in control.

Mark:

It’s interesting you use those words interchangeably. I feel this and I know.

Justin:

Well they’re not interchangeable. Well that’s

Mark:

that’s the interesting part of it is how much of it is something we can tend to think. This is another podcast in itself, the difference between our thinking and our feeling and how the two tend to interact. Positively or negatively.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Because uh what I can feel when I think, I think our tendency is to say, when I feel God

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

He’s close.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

But if I don’t feel God in this moment, I’ve sinned and he’s far away. Mm-hmm. You follow me?

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And I and so when you used it just clicked in my ha head when you were talking about the feeling and then what we know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I think that’s that’s an imp that’s another podcast.

Justin:

Yeah. And that’s been a life journey effort for me to understand the difference and allow them to be different separate but equal.

Mark:

And it and I but yeah. And I think that’s important. though when we recognize how power comes into play. What I think about power, how I feel when I may feel powerless, you know, I think that’s a that’s a that’s another topic for another time. So yeah. And I and I while you were sharing, I did think self-righteous was the word that I was looking for.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Before. But still I just uh appreciate you sharing that perspective of how the glasses have come off and that you know they came but now they’re back on to a certain degree in that process. And uh yeah, I didn’t mean to completely uh derail that with the thinking and the feeling, but I think I think it’s important to recognize How much power is available through Christ, even if I’m not necessarily feeling it in the moment.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, I guess that’s kind of what I was saying too about just the proof was given to me.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And so now I can hold on to that as truth, as something I know. The feelings have faded. They’re not as free

Mark:

,

Justin:

freely tr given to me, right? Like, oh, I just trust. It’s like I know that I can trust. I don’t feel it. It feels like this is like you’re doing the wrong thing, God, you know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But I know the truth. And I was yeah, so and I think that Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It’s good.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

We we should talk about feelings versus you know thinking at some point because that I mean that’s something you we you challenged me on when we first met. I would say I feel like this and you say do you feel that or do you think that, right? Like

Mark:

that.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s kinda like my like I say, right? Yeah, probably was.

Mark:

It probably was.

Justin:

I feel like I don’t say that as often now.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You can see you’re you’re missing the little uh the the eye twitch that that Mark’s given

Mark:

the twinkle in the eye as uh Justin said when he’d be referring to his kids before but so yeah any closing thoughts

Justin:

Nope.

Mark:

That’s fair enough. Well, this is how we see it

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit dot click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C L I C K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.