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[Music] welcome to how I see it with me Mark

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Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a podcast that works to

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countercultural polarization through thoughtful [Music]

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conversations it's interesting to um recognize that this what we offer is

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just a snippet yeah but yet as we have these

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conversations it's like my mind continues to ruminate yeah in some ways

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and say okay where's that come from how come this happens or why do I see it this way or oh wow we really didn't even

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get into the you know the neurop pathways that are created you know those

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kind of things and you recognize how complex certain words

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are which word well you think of humor and it's like okay it's just being able

1:11
to tell a joke you know what I'm saying but then as you talk about it for 45

1:16
minutes you recognize how it's developed over time you you recognize how you

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learn it out an age appropriate manners you know and and I and the other part

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and maybe you know part of where is is that is the word power

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[Music] MH it's like I not even

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necessarily feeling that we [Music]

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can it is so complex you feel

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inadequate to basically take one word and describe it and such a way that it

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that covers all the nuances right especially in 40 45 minutes yes we just

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scratched the surface that's exactly it but yet I think part of that is the

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ability to be able to say okay yeah well at least we scratched the surface and

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other people who might hear who might might continue to listen um can take

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that and say okay huh I hadn't thought about it like that mhm because I think

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that's what this is between you and I you know because like even even in that

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ability to say you know in that lot the humor podcast sarcasm yeah you know yeah

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we didn't have necessarily the same yep definition on what that was right yeah

2:55
so to be able to have that conversation that says okay this is how I see sarc

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yeah yeah sarcasm this is how I see Power this is how I see God this is how

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I see you know family wife yeah and and you know talking again

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back to sarcasm to get to a closer version of

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the truth right like in that conversation it's like there's new want to sarcasm and recognizing that

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sometimes when I use the word sarcastic or sarcasm MH some people will immediately hear that to my kids I say

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oh great job way to go you know and it's like no that's I would never condone

3:41
that that's certainly not yeah humor to me right you know and uh

3:48
yeah but just that nuance and understanding that every every word is loaded you know for every person and

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sometimes we get so offended both ways right sometimes we're offended at their use of a certain

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word and like obviously they're this then right and it's because our perspective of sarcasm is is that way

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one way and and then sometimes we can get offended like how dare you say I'm like that to my kids I would never do

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that you just said you do that right like and this this give and take uh

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where the truth is somewhere in the middle right like yeah and I and I guess and and it's

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I'm not trying to make it relative but I think you know that's that's where unearthing you know mining

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and being able to wrestle with you know okay where does this come from and is it

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true is it you know is this a bent you know is it a gener a a

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generational thing that I've just learned as true and yet I need a I need

4:57
a pattern to to help me understand what straight really is yeah versus being

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bent yeah in a certain fashion I like that little B yeah yeah because I think

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that I think a lot of the the words we use bring a personal bent to them that

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we don't even always it's it's it's part of that um well you know as we as we develop our

5:27
vocabulary you know I I look at things you know almost like they're they're the

5:33
schemas if you will the little pictures that we have that represent all those

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words in our mind yeah yeah yeah so it's like you know it's in some ways I think

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this is about rewriting MH or you know

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redrafting some of those pictures those schemas that we have that say okay this

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is what power looks like like this is what and I and I think that's that's

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what makes even that word you know if if if

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you will power it's like it's going to depend on what my experience has been with

6:18
power you follow me it's like is it is it a point where I've grown up where might makes

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right cuz that's a bent yeah or is it or is is it a a

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matter of where where I've come out of an abusive home or situation and I will

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never have power or I can never or power

6:42
represents danger yes right yes but yet

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even in hurt people hurt people it's something that I ATT I desire to attain

6:55
I want to get me some of that someday when I grow up nobody's ever going to do

7:01
that to me MH and therefore I just bring this this bent you know into that view

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of what power is and I think that's what makes it you

7:14
know complicated yeah because if you think about it in terms of it being danger

7:19
right like as a young person dealing with abuse in one way or another Power

7:24
represents danger and like you said when I get old I want want to be the

7:30
danger yeah right I don't want to ever experience that feeling again I want to

7:36
be on top yeah I want to be the danger because in that Spectrum yeah that's the

7:45
safe side sure yes I view that as the safe side and

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to allow people to hurt

7:57
me and not not in an abusive sense but in the process in the aspect of being

8:05
wronged I think that's the danger there is because I can never allow myself to

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be wronged when I have that Viewpoint MH

8:17
because it represents getting back to that other side yes it represents that

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that part of my life when I was powerless y now I'm perceiving that I

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have something yeah in this form of power so

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anything that represents that prior powerlessness becomes very confusing and

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and it's and it's almost react it's scary reactive is the word I was going to use yeah and I and I think you know

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for me even the how our culture has

8:58
defined words you know what is what is what does power look like I think you

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know we can look at it from a you know uh political we can look at it from a

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ethnic we can look at it from a gender you know perspective and say you know well that's

9:18
not right or you know I need some of that

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and I I think the the attainment of it is empty

9:30
hm yeah yeah tipping the scales still means the scales are off balance right yeah

9:38
yeah yeah and I I mean I'm I'm processing what you said in that tipping

9:44
the scales and yeah I'm not to say that's not to say that the scales are always balanced

9:50
either and sometimes yeah they probably need to be tipped but yet tipping for the sake of

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tipping yeah versus truth and being able to Define you know things words and say

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okay what does that mean to you what is that and I and I think even there again with the the word power versus the word

10:15
power lless if you will two sides of a scale you know on one end of the

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Continuum I'm I'm the king yeah

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authoritative end of the scale and then on the passive or

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powerless end of the scale it's like that can be a a negative thing yeah I'm

10:39
in the dungeon of the the castle yes the other side of that equation yeah yes

10:46
when reality is a closer is closer to us

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being both yes right and I think about Victor Frankle who was

10:59
a psychiatrist who he came to mind earlier as well did he yeah he got put

11:04
in a uh you know prison camp Nazi prison camp yeah endured insane you know

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difficulties right and you know after he wrote some books and wrote some stuff but one of the things he he basically

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said is that he has the power to decide his response to his situation right sure

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and so in between stimulus and response we have the power to choose what our response is in other words input doesn't

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have to equal output sure I can step in the middle there and choose and so in his context it was I can let them steal

11:41
my freedom I can let them steal my power I can let them have what they believe they're taking from me yes or I don't

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have to you may have me locked in a cage but I still have my freedom yes I can

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think what I want I can you know within the confines of what this cage I can do

12:00
what I want like you can't change me from the inside out you don't have that power exactly you know and I think yeah

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so I that that person that individual is never powerless at that point right

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that's the that's the beauty of it that's the beauty of the the the dichotomy right they're both true you

12:22
will always have that power uh in an abusive relationship you'll always have

12:27
the power to say no I won't endure this and and you know

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take your steps towards the door or whatever now of course I don't want to simplify this too much hear you I

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understand that yeah you're sensitive to those who are in abusive situations

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right I understand it's not always that simple but I just want to say like we we always have power we don't have to give

12:51
it away sure and then on the flip side we're always

12:56
powerless we can walk out the door and a could fall on us right or I could get in the car and like I talked about my

13:03
friend earlier get in a car and get in a car accident get out of my car after the accident get hit by another car did I

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plan that that is it is that within my power to control of course not or your

13:15
power to avoid right yeah no I'm completely powerless to that and in any given point I may feel a relationship is

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at a certain state where another person doesn't and I'm powerless to control

13:28
other people thoughts other people's behaviors other people's interactions with me but I'm fully powerful in how I

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respond back to them or I'm not because I gave it up right and that's where reactivity comes into play versus but

13:44
just the reality is so nuanced and it's a dichotomy that we're always powerful and we're always powerless and

13:51
understanding that balance is so important right yeah and it and it I

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think for me personally you know that is some that's a view that has

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been learned over time as well because I don't think yeah in who I was as a young

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teenager young man it's like I was Desiring I think I was Desiring that

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power you know it's like no nobody ever you know grows up Desiring to be you

14:26
know the the abused person right you know we want to be black belts we want

14:31
to be you know football players or you know and and granted I'm saying this as

14:36
a male you know it's like you know but even even females even you know

14:42
other individuals I don't think anybody

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desires to lose what power they

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have but yeah I'm also recognizing that as I attain you know

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more abilities I'll say you know there is more responsibility that goes along with that

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so as I'm offered opportunity or power however you want to describe it you know

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I think there's a responsibility that goes along with that and it's something

15:21
that I can share it's something that I can give

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away you know in in sense that says it's okay you know follow me in in in the

15:33
sense that I don't have all the answers

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and I am I too owless in these

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situations and I think you know that is a learning that comes with time is to be

15:51
able to recognize that yes I am powerless I can't short of my ability to

16:00
my heart to beat my lungs to breathe I can't generate any more air you know

16:07
than I currently can you know that kind of thing I don't have and you're dependent on your lungs of doing what

16:13
they do exactly you're not deciding exactly right and that you know and

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there are many things like that that happen yeah that I am powerless

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over fortunately I'd say by God's grace yes so yeah that's where I mean that's

16:34
where we miss um how much

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power is God right like sure and again I'm not

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waking up every morning saying okay lungs remember you got to do this and you know knees make sure you you move

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this way not that way you know exactly all these things and I'm not you know reminding you know my my legs how to

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locomote right sure yeah is that a word yes I'm good with it I'm it

17:07
Webster uh right like I'm not making these conscious decisions and you know

17:12
also like I'm not telling the boards above me to not C and fall in on me I'm

17:18
not telling you know the meteors to stop hitting the Earth you know or avoid us

17:25
right somebody is and that's where we miss it like Believers atheists alike

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something's keeping it all together the Bible says in him we we live and move and have our being right like

17:41
sure there's there's a power that we have access to that's beyond ourselves

17:48
right yeah and I think we can talk about you know our our personal power all day long but

17:54
if we miss that you know then we're missing the most important capability that we have

18:03
sure on this Earth which is to tap into the supernatural power right sure

18:09
so I'm G to ask I'm going to ask Justin how much are you thinking about CR at this moment while we're having this

18:16
conversation it's a good question uh so the joke it well so the second lesson of

18:22
celebrate covery the first lesson is denial CU until you get a denial there's no moving forward but the second lesson

18:29
is powerlessness stop stop with denial for just a moment though isn't that to a

18:34
great degree what we were talking about with that abuse of power or you know

18:41
what I mean that yeah the I that I can on my own yes I have this power I can do

18:48
it yes I can quit any time Mark that's right you just don't understand I can

18:54
quit anytime I decide to I want to yep although I've had this same pattern in

19:00
my life for 60 years yeah but I can decide anytime I want

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to that in and of itself would be denial denial yep not a not a river in Egypt as

19:12
they say but yeah well and denial comes in so many flavors in like we like we

19:18
were just talking about power being a dichotomy yeah you going to have denial that you're powerless but you can also

19:24
have denial that you have power you have responsibility you should choose a

19:30
different response right like and so a lot of times denial is coming in the

19:36
form of like I can't do anything about it I'm powerless over this situation it's like well you could put your shoes

19:43
on walk out the door or you could just not drive into that parking lot right or

19:49
you could call that person who said call me anytime you need cuz I know you know whatever I know you need some support

19:55
you could pick up the phone and call that person yeah you know yeah um you could put um meetings in place in your

20:02
life where every Tuesday morning or Wednesday morning in our case I'm at this place at this time meeting with

20:08
this person because I know it's going to be an accountability situation for me sure you know and so denial comes in

20:16
both forms of I I have all the power I don't need anyone's help and I don't

20:21
have any power and I can't control anything you know yeah denial covers all of that ground you know yep and I think

20:28
that's where where I'm is is this ability to learn because I do I think I

20:33
think I think power is multifaceted because I may have power in

20:41
this realm but I may feel powerless in this realm yeah I may feel powerless

20:47
over my finances depending on where I'm at or I may feel I may be on that verge of um

20:57
I'm trying to uh not Sac religious but where I think I know it all where

21:04
religion is concerned there's a word for that but yeah you know in a in a spiritual realm you know I got it all

21:11
figured out you know there is an a you know so I think that's that's the multifaceted part you know cuz some

21:18
areas it it may be comfortable for me other areas aren't going to be comfortable for me to recognize that

21:24
dichotomy between power and Powerless but yet back to Victor our buddy Victor

21:32
you know it's like am I that far in either direction and yes I

21:38
still have a choice to put my shoes on I still have a choice to open up that book

21:45
you know I still have a opportunity to learn and take baby steps in such a way

21:50
this says okay this isn't how it has to be this is where this is who I am but

21:57
that's not who I have to be I'll be honest I didn't hear the last

22:02
couple sentences cuz I'm trying to figure out who our buddy Victor is Victor Frankle Victor Frankle

22:09
sorry yeah sorry I that was just you know we I I was yes he had come to mind

22:16
as you shared here's my buddy I'll give you that yeah is he still living I don't know I don't I don't think he is

22:23
concentration camp yeah he made it out of there he did he wrote some wonderful books yeah

22:29
yeah he is bud I just you know I forgot that detail that he my buddy that's okay

22:34
sorry I lost you there for you didn't say like I say so so I missed the

22:40
connection I didn't say I hear you either yet but well I hear you but that

22:46
being said back to we were at the first denial first day so so going now sorry

22:53
now now go forward Justin is so once I mean that's the whole thing is like again if you can't if you can't step

23:00
away from yourself and look back and go where am I missing it yeah that that that's a recognition that's that's

23:06
getting through some denial if you know you can't progress but once you get past that then the very next thing we we put

23:14
in front of you is okay guess what kid you're powerless right and it's so I

23:19
mean I think it's counterintuitive to come to a recovery program and the second thing you hear

23:25
about is how you're powerless cuz it's like well what the flip how am I supposed to get better like this is

23:30
how's this supposed to help me well it's like it's offensive yes it's offensive

23:36
and it's also depending on your Paradigm of power scary yeah right yeah is it I talking

23:44
about that person who power represented danger and I finally got that power and I'm the danger and you're saying I don't

23:51
have that or I have to give it up you know I don't know if this thing's worth

23:57
it right like yeah I'm not sure I want to come back here right I'm not sure I want to deal with that yeah and so what

24:04
we are what we're always trying to encourage people to understand is this is a step based program right and we're

24:14
not going to leave you here but it's important to start here yeah right yeah

24:20
it's important to recognize right where I am powerless

24:26
it's important to recognize that you are powerless to on your own right to dig

24:33
your way out of the mess you've gotten into yeah and

24:38
recognize that you need help yeah it's it's almost it's to that point of I need

24:43
to be able to recognize there is another source of power or there is the ability

24:50
to have this power infused into me because I don't have the

24:57
ability on my own to generate it that's yeah and I think I think the

25:05
you know I think it's John 15 where he talks about you know he uh we he is the

25:11
vine and we are the branches yeah you know and how that his power is able to

25:19
flow into us when we recognize we need it as a

25:25
source because alls we're doing is basically wilting on the vine by saying

25:31
I don't need I don't need nurturing mhm I don't need I don't need your power

25:38
thank you I got this and yeah I'm wilting on the

25:45
vine having all of the resources available to me all the power if you

25:51
will of available to me I just have to be able to recognize that I'm powerless

25:58
to be able to do it on my own and it's ironic when we when we have that thought

26:04
of that you know or like when we're just disregarding his power right when

26:13
again ironically if we're like I don't need that power thank you okay well good luck keeping your heartbeating yeah good

26:20
luck keeping that wood above your your head from caving in while you sleep good luck keeping the meteors

26:27
away and yet you know it makes me think of that verse the Bible says God is not slow concerning his promise but he has I

26:35
got to look it up because I'm going to butcher it um but he's patient right

26:41
sure and he's patient with go ahead you finished it that one

26:47
well no I'm just I'm just saying he's not in a hurry to change us right he is

26:53
able to he's able to wait on on the

26:59
power is always right there yeah and it's and it's like plugging into the

27:05
outlet in the wall yeah it's always there and I guess I the point I was

27:12
trying to make is his power isn't removed from us because we don't believe it or else we would Wilt sure right and

27:19
that's where I was thinking about the Lord is not slow in keeping his promise as some understand slowness in other

27:24
words he's not slow to respond to our s you know our I guess Pride right um he

27:32
is patient with you not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance but the day of the Lord uh

27:38
will come like a thief as you look forward to the god day of God and speed it's coming but but the whole thing

27:44
there is like he's not slow in responding to our arrogance yeah he's patient and it's comes from a place of

27:51
love and it comes from a place of just wait because you're going to come back to this and you're going to remember

27:59
remember when I said I don't need your power yeah I now recognize how much I need it you know daily daily yes and how

28:08
much you've granted it to me to so many degrees that I couldn't even fathom

28:13
before and I thought it was all just me being independent and Powerful on my own

28:18
but really you're the one again keeping my heart beating yeah keeping the cars

28:24
from slamming into me on the the high like I don't have control over all this

28:30
you're the one who keeps my spouse loving me you know like CU I know me and

28:36
they shouldn't love me right yeah and uh yeah so I just think I don't know that

28:41
verse came to mind but his patience right yeah and I and I think that that

28:46
slow part in the process he's not slow in his process it's our view of him

28:55
being slow in the process that's what makes it a step program yeah I have to

29:01
do my part on the individual steps and yet it it becomes a process and in our

29:11
in our momentary circumstance we want instantaneous

29:16
change so yes from a view of H Desiring instantaneous change just take it away

29:24
you know I don't want to go through the work of having to deal with this his process is slow mhm yep but yet it's

29:32
beneficial and he is patient and it's not about us being able

29:37
to you know have the power on our own it's about us being able to recognize that the power is available to us and

29:46
his desire is to do it in us through us like like we talked about Dynamic power

29:53
you know our our word what was it our word for Dynamite you know that's the word that

29:59
describes the holy spirit is that Dynamo power but yet we tend to think of it as

30:06
Dynamite but no you know the word for power you know in that sense is 2,000

30:12
years old versus 200 years old yeah so the 200 is I have the ability to do what

30:20
needs to be done in you this Dynamic power that's not just a linear power

30:27
that blows everything out of the way cuz that's what we want right right okay God

30:32
slay my enemies right but no he works in my heart in a dynamic way he doesn't

30:38
just blow things up he he works in and around and through our circumstances in

30:44
a dynamic way that no Dynamite type power ever could and I think that's the

30:52
you know when we understand Dynamic power versus the dynamite power

30:58
you know that's that's that's a powerful thing yeah it is yeah it's so good

31:04
because he's working in and around and through my circumstances to in this patient loving

31:12
and kind way that's not just go before me and slay my enemies it's like okay

31:19
there's a process here and I can trust you in the process and you working

31:24
through me produces change MH and I think that's yeah yeah and if you

31:32
if you are able to reflect right and look at the landscape of your life and

31:38
see how essentially he moved Heaven and Earth to get you to this moment in time

31:45
M again it takes it takes the ability to see which he grants and I think

31:52
perspective for such a time as this but to be able to see how all those things lined up to put you like you said for

31:59
such a time as this to put you here right now in this situation to do what you're doing with these gifts

32:05
right compare that power to be able to manipulate all those situ if if you

32:11
believe in God's sovereignty and how he folds all these pieces of your life together to produce this one result this

32:17
one day right yeah compare that to Dynamite power like boom yep you know

32:23
the face of the Mountain's gone and it's like that was powerful but there wasn't a control there you know yeah where like

32:30
you said that Dynamic power that that he has naturally you

32:37
know is immensely more powerful because is because it is perfectly controlled

32:43
sure right so as we as we describe this this Dynamic power just I'm going to

32:49
turn it towards you just a little bit can you remember share however you want a Time

32:58
when that Dynamic power was just so evident in your personal

33:06
life I realized that's a big question I just thre I just threw it at

33:13
you well I mean we we briefly touched on some of the

33:18
things when we talked about the Holy Spirit okay you recall you do conversation with Megan and and that

33:25
kind of thing was that in that one yeah not necessarily Megan it's just with certain people where oh yeah yeah where

33:33
the results and even mid conversation it was clear like you said there's a

33:39
dynamic power here that's coming from outside of myself it is an infusing to

33:44
use the word you mentioned earlier yeah the vine is clearly you know I'm clearly attached to the vine and it is flowing

33:50
through me to the degree where I'm happy to not take credit but also happy to be

33:56
the branch that it's flowing through today right like that pance of um so that's the first thing that comes to

34:02
mind is just certain conversations or difficult decisions that had to be made

34:07
that were made made easy because of a dynamic

34:14
power and where typically that same conversation that same decision that

34:19
same situation would be a immensely difficult yeah you know what I mean I do

34:24
I know it's and it's funny that as you share I have a memory comes to my mind it's like um

34:32
Chris and I my wife we we built a house in Upstate New York prior to moving here

34:39
and I can remember uh in in the process of building that house it was just it was

34:46
it was a task and it was but yet it was something we felt called to do it was

34:53
something that we you know we had just looked at houses and you know and everything was so expensive and it's

34:59
like crying out loud we can take these same resources and we can we can make our own

35:06
house with the same money or less money than it would cost to buy a house under

35:11
this market and so we endeavored and we had great family support in the whole

35:17
process but I just remember you know the work that I did in my in you know just

35:24
organizing yeah you know you know just the not in an arrogant sense but you know taking the steps that I needed to

35:31
take and I can remember this one morning and it was just it was just I had

35:37
prepared to get the shingles on the roof cuz we were you know we had a wedding coming up and we were going to be going

35:43
away and I just wanted to be able to get these shingles on the roof get them down so you know weather you know it's just

35:50
it's just it's a it's a hurdle you know when a house is under roof you know

35:55
there's a I can breathe and I uh remember I was prepped I got in

36:02
there early and I had a boom truck you know ready to be able to Boom the

36:08
shingles to the Second Story you know that morning at you know 8:00 so I was there I was pumped I was ready you know

36:15
just waiting for that boom truck to show up and it's like phone rings you know

36:22
and flip phone back in those days I open it up it's like the company no we're not

36:28
going to be able to get you your shingles today the boom truck's down it's like crap I'm powerless what am

36:35
what I can't I can't get mad at them things break you know um and it's like

36:42
and I hung up the phone and I mean I was I just felt defeated yeah it's like all

36:48
this preparation all this time and yeah um I looked down the driveway

36:56
just like 15 minutes later and uh my friend a friend of mine on

37:01
that Friday morning he uh he chose he said I'm not doing anything today I'll

37:08
come up and help Mark put his shingles on his roof and not only did my friend

37:14
come to help but my friend owned a auto body

37:19
shop and uh he had he had a Mustang and he had a roll

37:26
back and he said uh he came rumbling up the driveway and he said and I told him my

37:33
story and uh he says well you know he says I was thinking about bringing the Mustang this morning but it must have

37:39
been God that chose me that told me I needed to bring the roll back he says there's no reason we we can't drive my

37:45
truck down to that place put have them load your shingles on we'll put them all

37:52
the way to the front and we can lift the roll back up and we can get the shingles

37:58
off the front of the roll back lifted up onto the porch roof of of house and we

38:04
were able to shingle that whole front porch get shingles up on the main roof and it was just that was that was a

38:11
moment for me when I just understood I mean it was a reality for me that there

38:17
was this power that was so much bigger than my circumstances and it was in that moment

38:24
that he desired to make that evident to me mhm you know and I just and I just

38:30
it's just one of those things in moments when I'm thinking I am powerless that I

38:36
can be thankful for that because just because I am doesn't mean that God is

38:43
powerless you know in that moment and and I think that's where scripture comes into play you know in our weakness he is

38:51
strong and he's always strong yes yeah and that and it's that that's and so

38:57
even as I apologize I threw that question at you that was deep but it was like yeah that that moment is one that

39:05
still comes back to me every now and then when I'm thinking about it it's like okay it's not

39:11
me the the boom trucks down you know what am what am what am I supposed to do

39:19
it's like hold on just just a second help is on the way help is help is already help has been

39:26
released already yeah dispatched help has already been dispatched and it's not

39:34
something that I have to control and it's not

39:39
a reflection or there's nothing wrong with me it's not a reflection of who I

39:45
am when I don't have the ability there's nothing wrong with me

39:51
and if anything it's a it's a part of who I am and it allows God to be my

39:57
father mhm who basically says okay talk with me about that

40:05
problem because you know I'm bigger than any of the problems that you have but

40:11
you have to do it differently you can't just do the same thing over and over again expecting a

40:18
different result you can't have you can't take that same problem what were you thinking

40:25
I saw the I saw the gears turn in there for a moment still just as

40:31
you they don't stop um no just as you were sharing that

40:37
story I was just trying to think about other times in my life where I felt that it's a profound sense of he's bigger and

40:46
he's in control right and it's interesting like uh my the

40:55
theologically I transitioned um in my late teens before you know a little bit

41:02
before I got married I guess maybe college Years from Free Will and my power to do and

41:12
accomplish and be righteous and all that to a much stronger understanding of

41:18
God's sovereignty sure and at the time I was going to a a church John Piper's

41:25
church and John Piper is you know he's a MH modern a theologian who writes about God's sovereignty 24/7 right like this

41:33
it's his passion topic and um and so I started to experience a whole another

41:39
side you know Theology of like oh he can and will do whether I do or

41:45
don't you know and yeah whether I can or can't yeah and there was a a distinct

41:53
shift where all of a sudden it was like the the dark you know how sometimes some

41:59
sunglasses right they're very dark yep and they're only good in a very specific

42:05
circumstance like you're staring in the sun you're on a dune and in the Sahara and like those are the right right

42:11
exactly but every other time it's like these are Overkill you know and it felt

42:17
like taking those off oh wow and looking at the situations around me and my car

42:23
would break down and it go oh you got this you wanted this to happen you're in

42:30
control all right what do you got for me today what does this mean like how can I you know and it was like for a good

42:38
couple years I would say it felt like it was that clear whenever anything would

42:43
go wrong it used to be what am I doing wrong how did how were my sins catching

42:49
up to me sure and it transition to oh okay I bet you got something in this and

42:55
I'm looking forward to seeing what it is yeah and just a complete shift there in

43:02
a trust right mhm and you know that's been it's

43:08
been a while 20 years years yeah since that moment and it's it's not that clear

43:15
anymore like I still I I put some glasses back on I would say they're not as

43:21
dark but and and but but because of that time mhm the proof was given to me and

43:30
so now even though I don't feel it like I felt it then like it would just be

43:35
this profound feeling of like cool like what are we going to do here like God

43:41
you know like let's see what he's got planned I was given the gift of the the

43:46
truth the proof and so now I carry that with me and I still know that's true the

43:51
feelings don't always come for free it's like I know there's something to this I

43:57
know he's in control it's interesting you use those words interchangeably I feel this and I know well they're not

44:05
interchange that's the interesting part of it is how much of it is something we can tend to think this is another

44:13
podcast in itself the difference between our thinking and our feeling and how the

44:19
two tend to interact positively or negatively yeah

44:25
yeah because what I can when I think I think our tendency is to say when I feel

44:34
God right he's close right but if I don't feel God In This Moment I've

44:42
sinned and he's far away MH you follow me yep and I and so when you used it

44:49
just clicked in my head when you were talking about the feeling and then what we know yeah I think that's that's an

44:57
that's another podcast yeah and been a life Journey effort for me to understand

45:05
the difference and allow them to be different separate but equal and and I

45:11
but yeah yeah and I think that's important though when we recognize how

45:17
power comes into playh what I think about power how I feel when I

45:25
may feel powerless you know I think that's a that's a that's another topic

45:31
for another time so yeah and I and I while you were sharing I did think self-righteous was the word that I was

45:37
looking for yeah before but still I just uh appreciate you sharing that perspective of how the glasses have come

45:45
off and that you know they came but now they're back on to a certain degree in that

45:51
process and uh yeah I didn't mean to completely uh derail that with the thinking and the feeling but I think

45:57
think I think it's important to recognize how much power is available

46:04
through Christ even if I'm not necessarily feeling it in the

46:10
moment yeah yeah I guess that's kind of what I was saying too

46:16
about just the proof was given to me and so now I can hold on to that as truth is

46:22
something I know the feelings have faded they're not not as free freely given to me right like oh I

46:32
just trust it's like I know that I can trust I don't feel it it feels like this

46:38
is like you're doing the wrong thing God you know yeah but I know the truth and I

46:45
was yeah so and I think that yeah yeah good yeah we should talk

46:52
about feelings versus you know thinking at some point because that I mean that's something you you challenged me on when

47:00
we first met I would say I feel like this and you say do you feel that or do you think that right like yeah that was

47:08
kind of like my like I say right yeah it probably was it probably was I feel like

47:13
I don't say that as often now so yeah you can see you're you're missing

47:21
the little uh the the eye twitch that Mark's giving the tle in the eye as Justin said

47:28
was referring to his kids before but so yeah any closing

47:36
thoughts nope that's fair enough well this is how we see

47:44
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