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[Music] what does this button

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do what does that button do it turns the thing on it makes it so other people can

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hear what we just said yeah later morning Justin good morning Mark how are you I am well thank you good to see you

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it's good to see you yeah you're feeling a little more relaxed this morning that's right yeah got pajama pants

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on got my feet up on the desk so yeah Justin looks like he's ready for Christmas morning he's got his pajama

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pants on and yep no and uh like I say with the the little snacks this morning

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we're a good little stocking stuffer thank you ho ho ho yes indeed but uh

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tomorrow Thanksgiving that's right Happy Thanksgiving to you Happy Thanksgiving to you what are you most thankful for

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just name one thing ah Grace yeah how am I supposed to beat

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that I'm going to say my family yeah that's a good that's a great one that's a good one yeah I consider my family as

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part of Grace I I know that's I know uh okay I'll go Mercy then okay

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it's Mercy is new every morning that's right yes it's the flip side to

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[Music] Grace welcome to how I see it with me

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Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a podcast that works to

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countercultural polarization through thoughtful [Music]

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conversations yes I like we had uh I've had some interesting discussions as far as uh yeah about a

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hundred of them about a hundred of them oh yeah well but it was funny recorded

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ones or you mean someone else I was talking about Grace at CR on Friday

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night so I've had a few you know interactions and then uh in the service on Sunday they talked about Grace coming

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to an end yeah and so like say that's been a that's been a had some had some

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really good discussion over that yeah cool yeah would you like to share some tidbits of those discussions or uh most

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of the interactions was on that uh that the verse that I had at the end there

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where you know as far as first Peter 29 29 and 10 yeah you know as far as all

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the 's in it and you know I got a lot of text saying what was that verse what was that verse so cool he had us so Mark

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read first Peter 29 and 10 as he was teaching and every time there was a you

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he said I want you guys to say out loud your name yeah and it was it was really cool it was really powerful me and Megan

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both are like it's so weird to say your name out loud like it feels weird yeah

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but once we got over that it was like it was really cool to kind of hear that verse in that context yeah you should

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try it at home yeah and I was surprised how uh how somber I wasn't anticipating

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that somberness you know of the room from yeah in that in that aspect of

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Grace and you know the gifts and you know it just it really kind of main even

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though we were trying to do the celebrate you know piece of it I was trying to you know that yeah that but uh

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yeah I was surprised how somber it uh became but that was probably more my

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observation just as the you know as everybody else in the room was kind of processing it of course not of course

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but you know as the teacher you've processed this and you have this you know image in your mind of you know what

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a reaction might be to what you say you know true and it's like it was more somber than I was anticipating but I'm

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sorry oh it's okay I won't cry next time it

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was it was still good no to me you yeah yep yeah I yeah I feel

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like when when speaking it's almost never quite like you

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anticipate I hear you I don't know yeah I don't know yeah that's fair too yeah

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but yeah so I'm thankful for Grace you're thankful for Mercy that's right and your family thankful for

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Thanksgiving yeah just the opportunity to reflect yeah I actually posted a

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picture of some spring dogwoods and the other day I said I'm thankful for spring

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there you go you know yeah that's how often do you say thankful for spring at Thanksgiving I like yeah that's how I'm

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feeling so get here quickly no it's all good but I do miss

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spring yeah yeah you're waiting you're anticipation you kind of dread this dread the cold and the the Dark of the

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winter yeah yeah yeah but I'm trying to you know I not use the word dread so

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you're okay sorry drag me down come on me I just I just triggered Justin

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right but yes that's why he's in his pajama pants this morning that's what you know that's what Winter's about I

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guess so you know yeah for me I understood it's about relaxing make sure

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you make sure you get dressed and get a shower today it we're not fall optionally

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opt anyway yes we've talked about marriage counseling before right we have

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we've done an episode on that we have um but we thought it would be interesting

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uh particularly cuz you know you do this somewhat regularly and uh and I marriage

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counseling yes both uh Megan and I were asked recently to do it for for a couple which is kind

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of fun and do what uh this thing I'm going to say oh I haven't said yet

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premarital counseling oh yes yes so this idea of you know like what is premarital

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counseling like sure preparing you for marriage basically I mean it's yeah as

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we enter this thing it's like what are we even supposed to be accomplishing cuz

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such a simple word yeah exactly pre-marriage pre-marriage so complex

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yeah and it's supposed to be like after you do this you're going to have a great marriage know Megan and I had did

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premarital counseling before we married and we learned like the book we're reading with you know with them and

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stuff like all the stuff in there we learn the hard way even even with premarital counseling so it's like what

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are we doing well I think in some ways maybe it's just setting up the

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beginnings of a foundation to build on what do you think sure what is premarital counseling to you mark well

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you're the professional um from my perspective it's

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that it reminds me of open-mindedness you know in that context

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you know you take this well especially like say in your situation you take this

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you know sweet young couple that you know hasn't been married before you know

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they've come out of their own individual family systems you know with though their own unique family systems you know

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what I'm you know because each each family system is unique that's what makes every marriage unique from my

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perspective you know so you take all of that that and I think there's a you need

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to create that open-mindedness that says okay I've come from here and I'm joining in relationship with somebody who's come

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from all the way over there yeah and I don't care if you grew up in the same church you know I mean you're just you

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you just we just don't realize how different we are until we're married you

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know and you can do I mean prepare enrich there's all kinds of Assessments you can

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that rank you know how you would View Family Dynamics you know parenting you

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know money sex all those topics you know and you can say yeah oh yeah you're

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compatible in this area and this area and it's like uh no sorry you know I mean granted don't get me wrong the

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assessments have value yeah but yeah I think you're just beginning to

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create um what I would call you know uh uh the beginnings of self and others

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awareness yeah yeah especially in yeah this context of you know young people

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getting married who you know kind of maybe they they've been on their own for a little bit or whatever but yeah yeah I

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agree well and I think I think um like the uh parrots you know they also they

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have the saving your marriage before it starts stuff but they also have like saving your second marriage before you

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know it's that's a it's a part of it you know so you and you think about that in that context it's not that's an author

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in a book just the parrot he's not refering to Les Lesly parrot yeah yes

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and the book that I'm referring to is called saving your marriage before it starts that's correct which may be

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referred to as what simus simus yes sorry yeah you your the train left

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the station I make sure we all on it so carry away no but they also have another

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series that is you know geared towards remarriage oh cool you follow me so it's

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I mean it's not always when we're talking about pre-marriage we're not always talking in our day and age we're not always talking about you know people

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who have just been married for the first time you know so yeah there's also those Dynamics in place that and I think you

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know there's no doubt that remarriage can be tougher

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than that first time around you know yeah cuz not only do you have failed

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expectations from the previous marriage sure but now you have new expectations

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or like rules maybe sure like I won't do that or that's no one's ever going to

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treat me like that again yeah it's kind of like that I like uh Jimmy Evans talks

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about the the woman have you've seen Dances with Wolves yeah you know but there's the there the lady that's named

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um stands with a fist you know and it it's kind of that image you know it's

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like someone has hurt me before yeah so now I'm just less vulnerable that's

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right you know yeah and so now you know I'm there's no longer innocent till

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proven guilty type thing right you know right guilty till proven innocent

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exactly yeah yes so I mean those Dynamics are what come into play I I

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think in both cases though there are some similarities um that that I that I've

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been thinking about um which is um that when you are in a pre-marriage

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relationship typically depending on how long you've been together and what what kind of Life you've done together you're

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still in a certain state of being that desires to be your best self for that

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person sure it's the wooing right it's the mask yeah but I mean wow wow went

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write the mask no I mean it's like culture creates this well hang on go

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ahead I want to hear your mask Theory but no I'm talking about like I just remember with Megan dating uh when there

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was a Schism or disagreement whatever like I would try and Rise Above because

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I loved herh right and like I it's again it's that wooing state that we are in

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pre-marriage that says I'm going to be the best version of myself for you

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because I love you and I you know I want to be with you forever and it's like kind of this thing that we don't realize

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at some point after getting married it could some people it's the minute you say I do for some people it's a year

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some people I mean they mention a three years average honeymoon period kind of thing but there's a switch that turns

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off and says okay now I should be able to be the worst version of me to you

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because you accept me for you know like there's almost a a switch and a reversal

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that goes the other direction to where you know what that's called No I bet you do human nature yeah yeah yeah but I

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think you know pre-marriage whether it's a new a second marriage third marriage whatever or even there is that state

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we're in while dating sure that I think

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is I guess I've never seen it not be there so I think it's important to call that out that's why I call it a mask but

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it is that aspect of putting putting your best foot forward right but but a mask I think of as obligatory right like

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I need to hide myself it's it's almost like a shame based thing where this

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feels different to me it feels more like a mask you really want to wear you it's like a mask that you're hoping to become

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it's almost like aspirational and this woman brings out the best of me and you might believe that mask really is you MH

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because this woman brings out the best to me and look who I can be because I'm with her right I feel like it's a little

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bit different in not that it's not a mask just that it feels different than when we it's a pretense yeah yeah so

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anyway what do you think what are your thoughts ah lots of thoughts but at the same time does that feel true I mean

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does that make sense to you though like is that a thing well that is a thing okay that is a thing that we put our

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best foot forward and and granted I think I think our dating culture

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promotes that yeah which you know it's like I'm going to do these things I'm

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gonna you know I know for Chris and I I can you know I can remember how big of an adjustment it was when we actually

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got married and started living together you know she she just saw different cont

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text of me and didn't realize what my job entailed yeah you know I mean you

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know sawdust and sweat kind of you know smise my work life and so you know I I

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like the smell of saus I personally do you know that kind of thing but uh she had always you know we had in our in the

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process of us being together you know or sorry about the beeps that's okay the dating process you know I was typically

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I smelled a lot better yeah you know cuz it was it was you know it was weekends

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and and stuff and so no would you say that was a mask just the fact that you were clean

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when you would go out with her I guess that's kind of my point I wouldn't call that a mask I would say that's just the

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nature of that was the nature of the circumstance but yet it was a facet yeah

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you know to to where and maybe that's kind of yeah not a deliberate mask but

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it's like I could still say it was because I wouldn't go on a date with Chris

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smelling like s just I'd just come home from work and say okay I'm heading out for a date you know and show up smelling

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like sawdust and sweat that kind of thing but so yeah I mean yeah I hear

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where you're coming from in that process but I think it was more or less you know what was acceptable what was

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unacceptable in dating yeah you know but so yeah that was that was a

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those snacks catching up with me but uh that that was a pretense you know of us

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you know just in that dating Dynamic versus you know living together in a full-time basis to experience the that

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broadness yeah that we do and I and I think you know there's there's nothing

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wrong with maintaining that dating part of a relationship you know when I say

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mask is there's nothing wrong with but yet I'm also recognizing this isn't who

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I am in a on a consistent basis yeah that kind of thing putting that best

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foot forward yeah cuz that's the thing like we all have ugly Parts whether it's smells or attitudes or you know what I

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mean uh toenails that are too long whatever it is right like we all socks

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on the floor whatever sure um there isn't there is no person who doesn't

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have those flaws yes and but during dating you know we're doing our best to hide those or minimize those or like I

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said earlier like even even we get better at some of those things thinking

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this woman has changed me mhm but I honestly believe it's the process that's

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changed you and once that Pro you know it's the the state the nature the the

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the the chemical things that are happening in your body the Euphoria yeah

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exactly that's what's Chang you and I I also think you know you could

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potentially rewire some of those synapses right like through that process but it's more likely that you attribute

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it to this woman which is dangerous like because once you get married you start

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seeing each other's ugly sides and the switch flips it's like this woman no longer does it for me you know yeah and

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I think uh you know I think it's a healthy thing even in marital relationship you know um being a we

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get we date you know I'll say you know based on the

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80% that is a person you follow me we see the good we

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see the and and from my perspective even in marriage I believe all those

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characteristics remain yeah the good the good yeah but our tendency is when we

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experience a certain dynamic and like you're saying more of a negative Dynamic

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it we're almost identifying the other 20% yeah and we can focus on one or the

18:38
other yeah and it makes a tremendous difference in the relationship you know yeah absolutely

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and I think for me some of some of the saddest you know well when it comes to

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pre-marriage stuff you know some of the sadder comments I hear are you know I

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wish my parents had gotten divorced versus staying together cuz I think when

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I grew up in such fighting you know such such chaotic

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you know turmoil I I think that was harder for me than if my parents would have just gotten divorced yeah and to me

19:20
that's a sad thing yeah because here you have this couple who you know really gutted it out you know for the sake of

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you know family and kids and so forth and I think about that and it's like man if they just had someone to talk to you

19:35
know if we could have just dealt with a couple of those things it would have made such a difference and that's the

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sad part to me and I I think that's why you're a marriage and family therapist makes sense but you know it's

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just to that point of you know recognizing yeah it's going to be difficult and there's going to be diff

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there's there's conflict and you know I think that's another part of the pre-marriage counseling is to be able to

19:59
recognize that conflict is okay and it's normal yeah because we have these this

20:05
tendency to think about things well you know we hear from couples who say well

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we've never had an argument in 20 years it's like well I'm sorry you know I really am sorry because you very backed

20:18
up you don't have a lot of intimacy yeah in that if it is because it's just one

20:24
of you isn't known in my opinion at that point and I think you know that's where

20:31
that process and and granted it's not to say there aren't you know Godly couples who you know resolve conflict better

20:38
right but to say that we've had none you know that that concerns me more than the

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couple who say and yeah we we you know have some disagreements and you know

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routinely it's about this subject or this area and it's like okay that's good you know because we can start with that

20:55
and start working through it and and I think that's part of what premar es you know in that aspect of okay there's

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going to be this 20% you know that you're going to be faced with and what do you do with that

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yeah and I and I think that's where like you're saying I think we do we do

21:16
change you know and we you know early on but I think

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it's from my perspective you know it's the next it's the

21:29
10 years and Beyond 10 year marriages and beyond that really Define where change starts to

21:36
happen yeah it's interesting it's like almost at you know there's always the the sevene itch type Dynamics you know

21:43
those difficult Years cuz humans are pretty resilient right so you can put up

21:49
with s to 10 years of sure stuff yeah but after yeah there's something in

21:55
there right guess what you're saying where the resilience starts to wear off and well and I think I think at those

22:01
times stressors you know it's most something to do with timing too A lot

22:07
has a lot to do with life cycle stages kids you know yeah where your kids are at you know because you know you've been

22:14
married seven years typically you know your kids are starting to enter into preschool that kind of thing and you know the the roles are changing and you

22:21
know my identity is changing CU now I you know have these kids that are going away from the home and you know that

22:27
kind of thing you know after that you're you're kind of into adolescence which has its all other Dynamic early

22:33
adolescence teenagers you know as they're crossing over so you can see these different dynamics that come into

22:40
play with each with each stage and and what goes along with it so I mean it

22:45
connects together but being able to recognize yeah you're going to there's going to be some conflicts that come

22:52
yeah just based on the fact and I think that's the pre-marriage piece you know especially with these younger couples

22:59
it's like preparation yeah I I it's like I had no idea you know I mean it it was

23:06
really that way to the point of there I I I just never imagined that you could

23:14
do that or that you see the you know parenting that way right now granted it

23:19
makes perfect sense right but from my perspective your perspective seems way

23:25
wrong seems foreign forign wrong yeah yeah so that's that's part of that

23:30
pre-marriage Dynamic yeah is to be able to recognize yeah we are far different

23:36
than we're able to recognize at this point right but that difference isn't wrong and the thing is yeah and to be

23:44
able to to be able to communicate that or create that understanding now it's like

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oh that's what Justin and Megan were telling us about and now we're seeing it

23:56
and suddenly it's normalized yeah whereas in other cases without that

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conversation that prear counseling it's like something's wrong and it's and it's

24:07
either you or it's me and I've got an idea it's you at this point yeah yeah

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it's good yeah so premarital counseling pre-marriage is kind of hopefully about

24:19
setting up some proper expectations for what to expect and sure because you know I was just thinking about like the

24:25
scenario the 10 years s year it and the the stressors that are around those times there's just no way to cover that

24:35
ground in pre-marriage no I hear you you know what I mean so it's more about yeah about setting up proper

24:41
expectations for yep how to do life together in the Long Haul sure and

24:47
learning to put on your you know your boxing gloves properly and fighting

24:52
rules exactly and where find the boundaries what are the boundaries of our fights and and how many rounds do we

24:59
get to go and who's and what can we spend individually without talking about

25:04
it as a couple you know around finances that kind of thing yeah you know because we we look at finances so completely

25:10
different based on how we grew up Chris and I definitely that was one of our bigger issues was the financial

25:16
differences between us yeah the other thing too uh I mean obviously sex

25:21
especially in you know younger couples who maybe who haven't had sex yet you know um as it was was with with Megan

25:28
and I you know mhm we had no idea what expectations there were well I can't say

25:34
that I mean I had you know viewed my fair share overly fair share of porn so I had those expectations you know what I

25:42
mean and man that's one that's like not only is it super hard expectations wise

25:49
but it's also hard to talk about in pre-marriage or anytime you know even in marriage like with others counseling

25:55
whatever I mean it's just you know one of those yeah and that's and I think that's one of the you know areas especially you

26:03
know around sex and pre-marriage counseling you know regardless of whether someone has been together

26:08
previously or you know saying it's like every partner is different yeah but being able to recognize our families

26:16
don't always teach us how to talk about that subject you know and

26:21
so and so often in our family systems you know it will tend to be a

26:27
perspective that you know sex is bad yeah you know don't do this sex is bad

26:33
right you know but then suddenly we're married and it's supposed to be good all and it's all of the sudden yeah flip the

26:40
switch and it's like really yeah how do we you know so being able to recognize

26:46
that purpose for sex you know talk about that and the ability to be able to recognize okay you know learning how to

26:53
talk about okay what's what's what's good for you what works for you what you know what's uncomfortable what doesn't

26:59
work you know in such a way that you know like any other topic we're able to

27:05
talk about it in a way that helps us meet each other's needs in ways that are beneficial yeah and like and I think you

27:12
know regular married couples have to learn how to do that you know but I think that pre-marriage piece and I'll

27:19
be honest you know I'll do the pre-marriage counseling in a lot of cases I mean every time I you know marry

27:24
a couple or whatever but it's interesting in that context you know

27:30
I'll I'll always follow up it's like okay and let's get back together in a year yeah you know because I think it

27:37
adds so now you know once that first year is up you know then we're starting

27:42
to recognize Ah that's what that was about and that was that and then we're

27:47
able to kind of get those what what could be a ditch you know or a trench

27:53
we're able to kind of you know fill that in in such a way that says okay maybe

27:58
you know we can change some of these habits early on before we just get entrenched in them that kind of thing

28:05
that's why I like to follow up you know afterwards and good sets the expectation too that it's not a Like Pat on your

28:13
butt you're on your way good luck it's like no this is this is an ongoing yeah this is uh this is just setting up some

28:21
expectations but the real work is after this premarital counseling is done

28:26
that's when the rubber hits the road ideally right like counseling happens hand in hand with practicing what you're

28:34
you know what I mean oh sure where premarital counseling is a little bit hard to practice some of that I obviously you can and and I think that's

28:41
also the intention right is to make sure they start working on some of those things sure you know in Pre in the

28:47
pre-marriage state as they planning weddings as they're finding a house all that stuff like sure you know there's

28:53
opportunities there but yeah yeah but that is the unique nature of pre-marriage counseling it's like you're

28:58
talking about a thing that's not a thing yet so it's not as easy to practice

29:04
those principles no doubt and it there's a part of me that I would you know in

29:09
what I do the passion I have that kind of thing you know I think not that it's fullon pre-marriage counseling but I

29:16
think you know relationship classes could are are our school systems

29:23
could learn could benefit from relationship classes yeah you know early on kind of have a healthy you

29:31
know understanding of what healthy relationship looks like you know that

29:36
kind of thing because while so often you know even when we do the marriage on the Rock classes which are open to you know

29:41
pre-marriage and you know that kind of thing you know so often I we'll hear it when I wish we could have gotten this

29:46
information you know from the older couples they'll say you know I wish we could have had this 20 years ago you

29:52
know that kind of thing and and being able to recognize that you know doing

29:58
you know meeting with a couple like you guys are doing or reading a book or going through a video series actually

30:05
does increase our success in marriage to where yeah really not useless exactly

30:11
just wanted to affirm that process yeah to where yeah there is you know B basically creating that understand and I

30:18
think it is part of that normalization process you know that says oh other

30:25
people have ran into this issue for MH it's not just you and me and we're It's

30:32
You and Me Against the World and we're the only ones messed up yeah in that process it's like no everybody has their

30:39
issues yeah and some people are able to talk about it with other people and you

30:45
know maybe find some tools yeah it's it's hard to uh talk about that without

30:51
overemphasizing cuz I can't like we probably said many many times marriage

30:56
is hard in our like we also want to be careful about like overemphasizing that but it is true

31:04
and it is yeah that's a good expectation but also it's like but also it's great you know so I like the garden analogy

31:11
okay yeah yes because yeah it's going to take effort it's going to take work and

31:17
you have to maintain a garden yeah but yet there are a lot of blessings that come with it if we just choose to put

31:23
the effort in and the best way to put the effort in is on a consistent routine basis we can't wait till the weeds have

31:30
overgrown everything yeah cuz then it's it's more work yeah and it's and it's easier to you know kind of more work

31:37
there's less uh Harvest I don't know Bounty yeah less

31:42
Bounty due to the neglect yeah so it's it's like doubly hard cuz you have to

31:48
make up L ground and you're not going to get the same benefits yet sure right for a while till you can kind of yep yeah

31:54
that's good I like that analogy and I think so secretly I had wanted us to do this episode so I could just share it

32:00
with them and be like this way you get marked too hey Mark I got this couple what do

32:08
you what do you think about doing uh pre-marriage counseling as a topic it's like

32:13
sure I got my fishing rod reeled them right in good deal I'm all for it I'm

32:19
I'm all for helping any young couple to uh yeah and I think you know from as I'm

32:25
thinking about you guys doing this you know being able to share you know that

32:30
yeah it was tough you know at eras and yet I I still think you know marriage is

32:37
the greatest growth producing opportunity that we have you know short of just yeah one-on-one relationship

32:45
with Christ you know and um and that's that's typically what I get most sad

32:51
about is when I think about how many divorces are occurring you know and and

32:56
the growth opportunities that were missed out on yeah it's it's stunting growth almost almost embedding a lack of

33:03
growth right and I and and I'm going to pull back because I'm not I'm not saying that you know in the aspect of someone

33:10
who's had a divorce and you know I recognize there's a lot of factors that come into play substance and you know

33:17
abuse and I'm not minimizing any of that I'm just saying it's sad when I recognize that you know and this is this

33:24
is the other part of the story that I'll routinely hear and it kind of reaffirms

33:29
my 8020 type principle it's like how often I've heard

33:36
you know well my parents couldn't get along they never got along sometimes they even divorced and and now they're

33:44
good friends you know they both remarried but you know suddenly they're good friends again you know and I think

33:51
it's sad you know when when couples aren't able to find that because there

33:58
again all the things that attracted you to somebody from my perspective have

34:03
have been there all along so you know it's like do you think that's true though I mean you already said that

34:09
short of substance and abuse you know and and you know where a person changes or you know an addiction type thing yes

34:18
guess what I'm saying is like just going back to the previous

34:25
Theory I was talking about like for the most part okay I'm trying to think it through

34:32
um go ahead I think it's the the easiest to present the best version of yourself

34:37
in that dating relationship with in a fresh relationship with a girl and with an intention towards marriage and so I'm

34:45
trying to decide if I think that stuff goes away or not but I feel like the ability to reach that peak of who you

34:54
are does it go away I don't know hear me out okay okay um in the dynamic

35:03
you were thinking about from my perspective I would say that change is

35:08
an aspect of priority yes agreed you follow me so when I am dating yeah you

35:15
are my priority yep when not you personally of course

35:20
but that's in that process it should be the one you're dating Mark

35:25
exactly thank you for is important the words we use matter yes

35:32
but being able to recognize okay I did what I did at the beginning

35:39
of our relationship because you were a priority to me human nature kicks in and

35:46
suddenly that priority changes y so now sometimes work is the priority my

35:52
friends my family can be reprioritized to where now my marital relationship

35:58
comes in at 2 3 4 really starting to get into trouble for at five you know yeah

36:05
so the reality of it is if we want to go back you know it's you know it's it's

36:13
not a simple process but at the same time it's a

36:19
it's possible plausible but either way in order

36:27
[Laughter] but the those the process becomes I have

36:34
to go start I have to go back and start doing the things that I once did to

36:40
bring back that level of relationship and so you know I mean I I think you

36:46
know running into this all the time you know where where you know touch tends to

36:52
go away physical touch tends to go away you know because we've replaced it with

36:57
sex so now you know I have this typically yeah typically I have this female that's basically saying he

37:04
doesn't touch me anymore sure of the bedroom yeah you know or I know if he's touching me he's Desiring to have sex

37:11
type thing you know and that just basically is a rep prioritizing so if we

37:16
want to bring that wholeness back and then he'll complain well we don't have sex that kind of thing yeah but you know

37:22
if I want we want to bring that wholeness back we got to recognize no we need non sexual touch you know in the in

37:29
the process of relationship so then I'm recogniz you know that couple's able to recognize well my body isn't just a sex

37:37
object you know I'm someone you care about you cherish that kind of thing so

37:42
that's just another no I I love all that now hear me

37:48
out yes go right ahead let her rip I love all that but let me speak

37:57
everyone knows that's how I am uh no no no I I do I do appreciate

38:05
that and I think that's a good way to reframe the conversation about priorities I guess I guess the

38:10
perspective that I'm coming from is sure in the um pre-marriage relationship where it's an unhealthy level of

38:16
priority so cuz that that I'm kind of coming even from my own perspective and you know how I kind of remember being it

38:22
was Megan was everything and to the degree where I would argue was healthy

38:28
it I would say it didn't negatively impact my life in a ton of ways but

38:33
there's it probably did in ways I didn't realize it but definitely if Megan hadn't been more healthy it could have

38:40
definitely had a profound impact on you based on the fact that you saw her as number one versus yeah yeah and she and

38:49
she could have embraced that as being yeah that's right and and then yeah uh so I guess that's kind of where I'm was

38:56
coming from in the sense of there's a level of priority that's unhealthy and

39:01
therefore I did things that I will not ever do again and or should not do just

39:08
in terms of priority right like one example I can think of is leaving work to go visit her like no you should do

39:16
work that's that's what a man does that's what you're supposed to do uh

39:23
now I I see your look and I think yeah I think it's okay to go get

39:29
that's not what I'm saying I'm saying like when I abandon the responsibilities that I'm responsible for those and so

39:35
where's that line well I don't I think you have to figure that out but sure um because

39:42
there might be I think you know what I'm saying though right I do know what you're healthy level of uh and I would

39:48
say I would say here again I'm I'm clarifying when I say number one that's

39:54
that's second to God yeah God God my relationship with Jesus Christ always

40:00
has to be foundational to do healthy relationship yeah because then I'm a

40:06
actually able to recognize better

40:11
prioritization yeah that's good because because it's easy to make work you know

40:18
because that's tied into my identity yeah you know it's easy to make work my

40:23
priority and then I tell my wife yes I love love you that's why I'm working 70

40:29
hours a week mhm okay well no that really has little to do with that desire

40:35
to provide which I'm understanding part of the difference between the male female Dynamic you know but at the same

40:44
time when you're talking about Megan being too high or you know that healthy

40:50
number one I think there's also something to be said for we can make that person Jesus to us

40:58
yeah yeah and that is unhealthy because ultimately we're you know she's a great

41:04
Megan she's a lousy Jesus right so when I am you know or when in relationship I

41:11
have to high priority you know on that person and I

41:17
am and that and I I would kind of put it in the terms of that person becomes my

41:23
reason for living right you know then I am that is an unhealthy relationship

41:30
it's you know it's I would say codependent yeah you know because all my happiness depends on your happiness yeah

41:38
and so yeah that's unhealthy relationship and that would be in an area where you know we'd have to say

41:45
okay yeah we need to start working on some of these other priorities not that they would necessarily listen to you at

41:50
that point or me for that matter but I'm saying you know sometimes it would be a matter of saying you guys aren't ready

41:56
yet yeah you know but I a lot of people won't necessarily listen at that point either

42:03
right yeah go ahead tell me you like what I'm saying

42:09
but it's your turn to [Laughter]

42:15
speak I like what you're saying no no no I I do I I think that's

42:21
great I think uh often too like we'll we'll hold up the old dating

42:28
version of ourselves is like like our spouse will hold that as the ideal or I

42:33
might I might about myself sure but I think it's probably fair to say

42:41
that majority of dating relationships aren't perfect relationships there I would I would argue that um you know

42:49
there's probably a lot of that replacing number one you know putting them there and therefore again the way we operate

42:57
understand that what replacing number one you know kind of like rising to the top of priority list over God over

43:03
everything right I think that that seems not uncommon especially in the environment I grew up in where you know

43:10
we it was a church environment and it was like when Coupes started dating yeah it was it just reach it

43:19
again more often than not I saw priorities shift to the degree where it seemed unhealthy to to me even in my

43:26
young state in looking back to like I say all that to say that if we hold that

43:32
as the ideal the unhealthy version of ourselves that put you at a priority above God then that we're always going

43:39
to have a bad set of expectations too agre so like saying you need to be like

43:45
you were when you're dating may may not be the correct and I would argue maybe

43:50
rarely is the right statement it's more about yeah I think learning from some of

43:56
the things we did dating and how priority the priority was higher and that still needs to be the case like

44:01
they still need to be you know number one priority besides God or whatever and shifting some of those things to look

44:08
more like dating but in a healthier context I don't know that that

44:14
yeah yeah it's your turn oh okay my turn to

44:19
speak but I I think you know we in that wooing that you describe yeah okay it's

44:26
easy to recognize that we lose the desire to pursue our spouse yeah you

44:32
follow me yeah it can it can tend to minimize you know because there are

44:37
other things because we want right like that's there's something to be said for that yes that's the human nature

44:42
component it's like I especially as males you know we've achieved you know

44:48
our our desire so now we're on to pursuing other things you know and so

44:54
therefore work does become more important because because now I want the boat I want the car I want all the other

45:00
things that go along with having my wife yeah you know and yet from her

45:07
perspective all of these other things become more important than she is MHM

45:12
and my tendency is to say oh you're the most important person to me but that's

45:18
not reflected in my actions what my actions say is all these other things

45:23
are more important to me so I just bless she sir I just my words don't replace my

45:31
actions yeah and so often that's the difficult process is it's like you know

45:36
I love you yeah you know I that's why I do all that I do yeah and no that's not

45:43
always the case and that's you know coming from a reformed workaholic you know in that process but yeah it is to

45:50
the point of being able to say okay what is what does it look like and how do we

45:55
redefine this MH because I and I think that is a part of it is I have to I have

46:01
to in a lot of cases redefine my identity Yeah because sometimes you know

46:08
in that in that relationship you were talking about it's like that person may

46:15
not have even liked their identity so now I have this other person that's adding value to my identity now you know

46:24
this is going to be wonderful this is going to be great some somebody who loves me unconditionally who accepts me all the

46:31
time okay unhealthy expectation right you know but yet it's understandable you

46:39
know based on that identity that I have you know so being able to you know walk

46:45
with couples in such a way that says okay yeah your identity will shift you will become Mr and Ms Y you know and you

46:54
know this is this is just the first step in a number of identity changes because

47:00
your jobs are going to change you know you're gonna have kids you're G to be you're G to be suszie or Johnny's mom

47:07
you know someday and that ident you know or dad you know the there's going to be these series of identity changes that

47:14
come in this process yep and each identity change is going to have some

47:20
conflict or some you know rupture and repair that goes along with that

47:25
hopefully the repair but you know it's going to be an adjustment there's going to be certain aspects of conflict and

47:31
that when you know as we're talking with young couples being able to recognize yeah there's absolutely nothing wrong

47:37
when that conflict comes it just means that something has changed yeah and I

47:42
may not even necessarily be sure of what it is but that's where self and others awareness kind of comes into that

47:48
Dynamic that's also where iron sharpens iron comes in right and right that's yes

47:53
can be yeah cuz I mean a marriage that your rough edges are going to rub against your partner and vice versa yep

48:00
and so that's an opportunity yeah nice job yes that's an

48:05
opportunity opportunity for conflict yeah and so the to slowly sharpen each

48:11
other yeah although that metaphor conflicts because sharp edges sharpening yeah but you get the point yeah but you

48:17
know sharp isn't bad yeah yeah yeah you take a scalpel for incidents you know

48:24
that kind of thing yeah the cut

48:32
butal learning to smooth down some rages and sharpen other ones that should be

48:38
sharpened yeah but that that's an opportunity you have together to to grow together and to hear what they're saying

48:46
when your flaws are hurting them or you know rubbing them the wrong way and that's an opportun like you said growth

48:52
there's a lot of growth yep so many growth opportunities in marriage right and I think that's where you know God's

48:57
word comes to play it's a double-edged sword you know it has that ability to to

49:02
cut yet heal in that process you know and as we both spend time in God's word

49:08
you know God's able to use his word to heal me you know apart from Chris and

49:14
yet she's also a part of that healing process because it's like she's re she's

49:20
um bringing it into my awareness um H revealing that's the word I was looking

49:26
for she's revealing my my weaknesses MH you know and you know and she does a

49:32
good job of lovingly calling that out in most cases to the point of saying hey you do you see how much time you're

49:39
spending doing this or doing that and you know in comparison to how much it's

49:44
like good point valid point yeah yeah it's good so you know she helps me

49:50
create those boundaries that you know are saying okay yeah yeah yeah another

49:57
thing um that we do is in in pre-marriage is we look at

50:04
these things that are really good about the person and often I mean this is

50:09
something actually um the couple brought up but like often in marriage it flips to where that's the thing you resent you

50:15
know what I mean and so that's a common yeah thing you've talked with me about too is like um how trying to get them to

50:23
remember what they appreciate about that person that's that same thing and I don't know for me as always the stick

50:29
comes to mind right yes it does yeah yeah yeah this

50:35
thing you know like uh for instance you know you mentioned work but he's a hard

50:40
worker you know and that's what drew me to him that's what you know you know

50:46
made me really love him and I could just see that he had that Integrity to get up and go to work and really just you know

50:53
you know man up right yeah and then you know like you said in marriage it all kind of shifts and while that same

51:00
characteristic is now bothersome because I want them home with meh you know and

51:05
um yeah and being able to understand both as him and as her the stick nature

51:12
where yeah you like this end of the stick but it comes with this other end which is maybe doesn't come home as

51:18
early as you'd like and that's not good like I'm not saying that's good like he needs to learn how to keep that stick

51:24
Balan right that's my whole Theory right is like he need to understand that while you're a hard worker it cannot you know

51:31
come at this price of you know betraying Your Wife by not you know and vice versa

51:37
she has to have that same balance in her mind of that really bothers me but it's also what wooed me to him and it also

51:45
it's still what I value and love about him is that he'll get up get to work making it happen for our family and like

51:51
being able to keep that in balance is a challenge but I think important what do you think well I was thinking about the

51:57
the idea of balance um I would propose in some ways the differences between men

52:05
and women um men will not in my opinion

52:12
have the same level of balance where relationship is concerned I think women were designed differently you know and I

52:19
think and I think relationship is a higher priority for them yeah and they

52:24
have a greater concern about maintaining relationship

52:30
than guys do so you know the this the stick analogy well good I don't think we

52:35
can always say well you just need to balance like I balance I think sometimes

52:40
I have to willing I have to recognize that yeah part of who Chris is designed

52:46
to be as that easer if you will that helpmate is that understanding of being

52:52
able to help me recognize when my relationship priorities are out of line yeah and I think you know women

53:00
are let's let's be honest um the majority of couples that come into my

53:09
office are typically not led by the men yeah you follow me right y I'm that

53:14
that's just I'm not I'm not trying to speak out of just my experience but yes

53:20
that is the to where women have that Dynamic and I think so often in in our

53:27
maless um we can see that as crazy jealousy you follow me when the

53:34
priorities are when as men when our wives say hey our relationship is you

53:40
know suffering you know we see that you know you're doing this you're doing that

53:45
we see it as crazy jealousy as in they're wrong for yes they're just too

53:51
sensitive they have that's that but in the reality I believe that's healthy jealousy right just like God has you

53:57
know his his name is jealous you know one of his names is jealous to the point of he doesn't want anything else to not

54:06
that it's you know minimizes who he is but he just cares about us that much to

54:11
where he doesn't want other things coming between us and himh and I think you know he's given

54:19
that design if you will more so towards women and I think as men it's helpful for us to reflect on that to be able to

54:27
say because I think so often and this is part of that prear counseling piece if you will write this one down um no I'm

54:33
just kidding avoiding the the defensiveness yeah you know because so often our tendency is to react out of

54:42
defensiveness in that process you don't know well now just listen for a second

54:47
and try to just accept influence because this is something you

54:53
probably need to hear and if you're just becoming defensive then you're likely not hearing

55:00
and I mean I can write that down and I could say that but how do you tell someone

55:07
remember don't be defensive like how that's a good job nice job you just told me not to be defensive now just now what

55:15
I need you to do is tell me what it looks like in me okay to not be

55:20
defensive to not be defensive I like that okay you follow me it's all right that

55:27
when I start you know I was joking but that's okay I have

55:34
a list I'm I'm adding it what is what does defensiveness look like in me right

55:40
and then you know that process of it's likely going to involve the word you

55:46
versus I yeah you know if you didn't you know I

55:52
wouldn't that's that's the beginning of defensiveness

55:57
I got it written now you know avoiding avoiding

56:03
defensiveness is a phrase that helps us avoid defensiveness is the ability to say okay I hear where you're coming from

56:09
help me understand that better yeah help me I'm going to write that down help me

56:15
understand this is free to you Justin I

56:21
promise the bills in the mail yeah yeah that's good you you say

56:27
that a lot you know outside this context help me understand um like you say that

56:33
yourself personally um but you also say in context of these type of things and I think that's just a really

56:40
good yeah uh practice if you're feeling defensive to go try and embrace that

56:48
terminology not just the terminology though the philosophy right yeah the desire to understand because so often in

56:55
the midst of a confli and and that's kind of what began you know this this you know how I see it I don't mean like

57:01
help me understand why you're a jerk exactly yeah really help me understand where that feeling's come from help me

57:08
understand what you saw in me help me understand you know and how how did that

57:13
impact you you know this ability to there again others

57:19
awareness mhm you know because if a person's having a conflict with me you

57:25
know likely there's an issue and I need to know more about that to be able to

57:31
come to a resolution not that we always have to have agreement right but there's the

57:37
ability to create resolution right yeah and thinking again about

57:44
common you know roles between men and women I think it's very common for a a

57:49
man to not uh yeah to not think about other right

57:54
and to process everything his own M skull you know and like what does this

57:59
mean for me what is she saying what does it mean for meus how does this impact her and how am I impacting her it's more

58:06
like what is she saying and how's it impacting me what am I going to have to do now to Plate her and it's more about

58:12
yeah go ahead sorry and I think women are uh better about that but almost can

58:19
become a flaw in the other direction the codependence of like oh is he upset did I what do I need to do to make sure he's

58:24
not upset and it's that's the oppos that's the other end of the Continuum that's Al also unhealthy and there needs

58:30
to be both directions moved towards the middle right where um a man needs to be

58:35
thinking did I upset her sure what did I do that needs to happen more often a woman probably needs to think that less

58:42
maybe I don't know and part of what you're describing there and we can talk about this too is is the the love Styles

58:50
yeah that's a that's you know becom great creating an awareness about love Styles and what my Tendencies are help

58:56
me understand you know my family systems and where I've come from user friendly

59:01
that was the episode love that yes I was like I know we didn't name it love Styles no user friendly yeah and and yet

59:09
I think you know so often part of the communication Dynamic we're running into is like you describe guys as as a rule

59:17
will tend to um they'll tend to think about things in their own mind so much

59:24
so to the point of I know we've talked about this when in reality the female you know the the wife

59:32
is just hearing that information the first time you know maybe after the fact

59:39
or even right before the fact so it seems as a big surprise to her and you

59:45
know he's looking at his wife saying what do you mean we've talked about this before when in reality that that thought

59:52
has never been verbalized right cuz he thinks it's a hive mind situation sure she'll just unint it all

59:59
my thoughts exactly she knows you know and it go both directions I think there

1:00:05
is women do have a supernatural ability sometimes to Inuit it things I think

1:00:12
maybe sometimes a guy gets confused because she didn't Inuit it this thing where she has in the past of course you

1:00:19
would know that cuz you knew that and you knew that you know yeah yeah and so

1:00:24
often that canuse your word guy yeah and so often that can also be a detrimental

1:00:30
conversation or communication I know what you're thinking that's right I know why you did that it's like no yeah we

1:00:37
got to pull that back yeah so yeah that ability to read minds and think we know

1:00:43
what someone is thinking based on the action we saw yeah yeah there's so many

1:00:50
opportunities for growth in marriage yes there are and I think that's what

1:00:56
pre-marriage is about is embracing that concept of this is an ongoing

1:01:01
opportunity rest of your life to grow and it's a sanctifying process I can

1:01:06
become more Christlike through this process but also what you get back is an

1:01:14
amazing relationship that's unlike any other relationship in your life you know the level of intimacy physically

1:01:21
mentally emotionally you know all those things you you can't have it any other type of relationship so that's what you

1:01:28
get in return you know you get this amazing relationship that you know cuz I

1:01:34
again I I challenged about how many times I say it was marriage is difficult like no but also this is the benefit of

1:01:42
it right um sure yeah yeah yeah talk with anybody who's married been married

1:01:48
over 20 years and you know you'll you'll hear about you know the difficult times but you'll also at the same time if if

1:01:56
they have their stick in in order you know you'll hear about the blessings that come through those difficult times

1:02:02
and when we've you know thank you for using the stick it's about time

1:02:08
Mark I try Justin I try I want I want I don't know all your clients but I know

1:02:15
some of them and I want to hear them come out of the meeting say did you know Mark used your stick that's my my dastardly plan my

1:02:26
yeah I was talking with Mark and he mentioned your stick the other day that would that Justin Justin would would be

1:02:32
very proud of that moment yes but here again we can uh we can

1:02:39
think about it in terms of the Continuum yeah the Continuum is kind of like your stick anyway so yeah y yeah finding that

1:02:47
shared likeness if you will yep so yeah well by all means Justin blessings to

1:02:53
you in that process and to that couple like you say I know of them and I wish them all the blessings of a happy

1:02:59
marriage and yeah any advice you have for them since you know who it is is your last opportunity to fix it before

1:03:05
we mess it up uh just just make your relationship yeah Christ centered and you know be like Justin and Megan

1:03:13
they're good folk yeah all right well yeah it was up all good up until keep

1:03:18
Christ the center but that's what you guys do yeah yeah you guys do that and

1:03:24
so yeah it's okay to say be like Justin and Megan keeping Christ in the center also be like Mark and Kristen yeah yeah

1:03:32
yeah you're like ex I can't argue because it's like that it's like that scripture I think there's you know I

1:03:39
think I can always wrestle with that uh Paul says yeah be like me yeah you know

1:03:44
it's like yeah I'm okay with that in if if you're if that means modeling Christ

1:03:52
centered relationship to the best of your ability I'm okay with that yeah yeah see yep that's a that's a good way

1:04:00
to say how we see it that's right that's how we see

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