Mark:

What does this button do?

Justin:

What does that button do?

Mark:

It turns the thing up.

Justin:

It makes it so other people can hear what we just said later.

Mark:

Morning Justin.

Justin:

Good morning, Mark.

Mark:

How are you? I am well, thank you. Good to see you.

Justin:

It’s good to see you.

Mark:

Yeah, you’re feeling a little more relaxed this morning.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Got pajama pants on. Got my feet up on the desk, so Yeah.

Mark:

Justin looks like he’s ready for Christmas morning. He’s got his pajama pants on and Yep, no creep. And uh like say with the the little snacks this morning we’re a good little stocking stuffer. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. Ho ho ho. Yes indeed. But uh tomorrow, Thanksgiving

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

Happy Thanksgiving to you, Democrats. Ah, Grace. Yeah.

Justin:

How am I supposed to beat that? I’m gonna say my family.

Mark:

Yeah, that’s a good that’s a great one.

Justin:

That’s a good one. Yeah.

Mark:

I consider my family as part of Grace.

Justin:

I know. I know that’s uh I know. Yeah Uh okay, I’ll go mercy then.

Mark:

Okay. Yes.

Justin:

It’s the flip side to grace.

Mark:

Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations.

Justin:

I like that.

Mark:

We had uh I had I’ve had some interesting discussions uh as far as uh

Justin:

Yeah, about a hundred of them.

Mark:

About a hundred of them? Oh yeah. Well it was funny when

Justin:

recorded ones. Or you meet someone else.

Mark:

I was talking about Grace at CR on Friday. That’s right. So I’ve had a few, you know, interactions and then uh uh in the service on Sunday they talked about grace coming to an end.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And so let’s say that’s been uh that’s been uh had some had some really good discussion over that. Yeah.

Justin:

That’s cool.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Do you like to share some tidbits of those discussions, sir?

Mark:

Uh most of the interactions was on that uh that the verse that I had at the end there where, you know, as far as First Peter

Justin:

two nine

Mark:

two nine and ten. Yeah. You know, as far as all the U’s in it and, you know. I got a lot of text saying, okay. What was that verse? What was that verse?

Justin:

He had us so Mark read first Peter two, nine and ten as he was teaching and he every time there was a You he said, I want you guys to say out loud your name.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And it was it was really cool. It was really powerful. Me and Megan both are like, it’s so weird to say your name out loud. Like it feels weird.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But once we got over that, it was like it was really cool to kind of hear that verse in that context.

Mark:

Yeah. I don’t

Justin:

try it at home.

Mark:

Yeah. And I was surprised how uh how somber I wasn’t anticipating that somberness, you know, of the room. From yeah, in that in that aspect of grace and, you know, the gifts. Gotcha. And, you know, it just It really kind of maintain even though we were trying to do the celebrate, you know, piece of it. I was trying to, you know, that

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

that. But uh yeah, I was surprised how somber it uh became. But that was probably more my observation just as the you know, as everybody else in the room was kind of processing it. Yeah. Of course not of course, but you know, as the teacher you’ve processed this and you have this you know, image in your mind of, you know, what a reaction might be to what you say.

Justin:

Yeah, you know, yeah.

Mark:

And it’s like it was more somber than I was anticipating. But Oh it’s okay.

Justin:

I won’t cry next time

Mark:

it was It was still good.

Justin:

No, I know what you mean. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Yeah, I yeah. I feel like When when speaking it’s almost never quite like you anticipate.

Mark:

Hmm. I hear you.

Justin:

I don’t know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I don’t know.

Mark:

Yeah. That’s fair too. Yeah. But yeah.

Justin:

So

Mark:

I’m thankful for grace. You’re thankful for mercy.

Justin:

That’s right. And your family. Thankful for Thanksgiving.

Mark:

Yeah. Just the opportunity to reflect.

Justin:

Yeah. I actually posted a picture of some spring dogwoods in the other day and I said, I’m thankful for spring.

Mark:

There you go.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

How often do you say you’re thankful for spring at Thanksgiving?

Mark:

I was like, Yeah.

Justin:

That’s how I’m feeling So get here quickly. No, it’s all good. But I do miss spring.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You’re waiting your anticipation. You kind of dread the s dread the cold and the the dark of the winter.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, but I’m trying to, you know, not use the word dread, so you

Mark:

Okay, sorry.

Justin:

Don’t drag me down. Come on me.

Mark:

I just I just triggered Justin. But yes, that’s why he’s in his pajama pants this morning.

Justin:

That’s what you know that’s what winter’s about.

Mark:

I guess so.

Justin:

You know. Yeah. For me.

Mark:

I understood.

Justin:

It’s about relaxing.

Mark:

Make sure you make sure you get dressed and get a shower today so we’re not fault.

Justin:

Optionally. Anyway, yes. We’ve talked about marriage counseling before, right?

Mark:

We have.

Justin:

We’ve done an episode on that

Mark:

We have.

Justin:

Uh but we thought it would be interesting, uh, particularly because, you know, you do this somewhat regularly in uh and I would say marriage counseling. Both. Uh Megan and I were asked recently to do it for s for a couple, which is kind of fun and

Mark:

do a lot.

Justin:

Uh this thing I’m gonna say. Oh I haven’t said yet. Premarital counseling.

Mark:

Oh yes. Yes.

Justin:

So this idea of you know, what like what is premarital counseling? Like preparing you for marriage, basically. I mean it’s

Mark:

it

Justin:

as we enter this thing it’s like what are we even supposed to be accomplishing because it’s

Mark:

such a simple word.

Justin:

Yeah, exactly.

Mark:

Premarriage. So complex.

Justin:

Yeah, and it’s supposed to be like after you do this you’re gonna have a great marriage. Like the book we’re reading with you know with them and stuff. Like all the stuff in there, we learn the hard way. Even even with premarital counseling. So it’s like, what are we doing? Well, I think in some ways maybe it’s just setting up the beginnings of a foundation to build on. What do you think?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

What is premarital counseling to you, Mark? You’re the professional. Um

Mark:

From my perspective, it’s that well, it it reminds me of open-mindedness. You know, in that context You know, you take this well, especially like say in your situation, you take this, you know, sweet young couple that, you know, hasn’t been married before. You know, they’ve come out of their own individual family systems, you know, with though their own unique family systems, you know, you know, because each each family system is unique. That’s what makes every marriage unique from my perspective. You know. So you take all of that and I think there’s a you need to create that open-mindedness that says, okay, I’ve come from here. And I’m joining in relationship with somebody who’s come from all the way over there.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I don’t care if you grew up in the same church, you know. Yeah. I mean You just you you just we just don’t realize how different we are until we’re married. And you know, and you can do I mean, prepare enrich, there’s there’s all kinds of assessments you can do out there, you know, that kinda rank, you know, how you would view family dynamics, you know, parenting, you know, money, sex, all those topics, you know. And you can say, yeah, oh yeah, you’re compatible in this area and this area. And it’s like Uh no, sorry. You know, I mean, granted, don’t get me wrong, the assessments have value.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But yeah, I think you’re just beginning to create um what I would call, you know, uh uh the beginnings of self and others awareness.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, s especially in yeah, this context of y you know, young people getting married who you know kind of maybe that they’ve been on their own for a little bit or whatever. But yeah, yeah, I agree.

Mark:

Well and I think I think um Like the uh parrots, you know, they also they have the saving your marriage before it starts stuff But they also have like saving your second marriage before you know it’s that’s uh it’s a part of it, you know. So you and you think about that in that context. It’s not

Justin:

that’s an author and a book Just the parrot? He’s not really

Mark:

less and Leslie Parrot.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And the book that I’m referring to is called Saving Your Marriage Before It Starts.

Mark:

That’s correct.

Justin:

Which may be referred to as What? Simbus. Simbus, yes.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Before you your the train left the station. I want to make sure we are all on it. So carry away.

Mark:

No, and but and they also have another series that is, you know, geared towards remarriage.

Justin:

Oh, cool.

Mark:

You follow me? So it I mean it’s not always when we’re talking about premarriage, we’re not always talking in our day and age, we’re not always talking about you know, people who have just been married for the first time. Yeah. You know, so yeah, there’s also those dynamics in place that and I think, you know, there’s no doubt That remarriage can be tougher than that first time around. Yeah. You know?

Justin:

Yeah. Because not only do you have failed expectations from the previous marriage.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But now you have new expectations or like rules. Yeah. Maybe.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Like I won’t do that or that’s what I’m saying.

Mark:

No one’s ever gonna treat me like that again. Yeah It’s kind of like that uh I like uh Jimmy Evans talks about the the woman have you you’ve seen Dances with Wolves?

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

you know, but there’s the there’s the lady that’s named um Stands with a Fist. You know, and it is it’s kind of that image, you know, it’s like someone has hurt me before.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So now I’m just less vulnerable.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

You know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And so now, you know, I’m there’s no longer innocent until proven guilty type thing.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You know.

Justin:

Right. You’re guilty till proven innocent.

Mark:

Exactly. Yes. So I mean those dynamics are what come into play.

Justin:

I I think uh in both cases though. There are some similarities um that that I was that I’ve been thinking about. Um which is um that when you are in a pre-marriage relationship Typically, depending on how long you’ve been together and w what what kind of life you’ve done together, you’re still in a certain state of being that desires to be your best self for that person.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

It’s the wooing, right?

Mark:

It’s the mask.

Justin:

Yeah, but I mean uh wow, wow. Well our

Mark:

data culture creates this.

Justin:

Well hang on.

Mark:

Go ahead.

Justin:

I want to hear your mask theory, but uh no, no, I’m talking about like I just remember with Megan dating, uh, when there was a schism or disagreement, whatever, like I would try and rise above Because I loved her. Mm-hmm. Right? And like I uh it’s again, it’s that wooing state that we are in pre marriage that says I’m gonna be the best version of myself for you because I love you and I, you know, I wanna be with you forever and it’s like kind of this thing that we don’t realize at some point after getting married. It could some people it’s the minute you say I do, for some people it’s a year, some people’s I mean, they mention a three year is average honeymoon period kind of thing. But there’s a switch that turns off and says, Okay, now I should be able to be the worst version of me to you because you accept me for why you know, like there’s almost a a switch in a reversal that goes the other direction to where

Mark:

You know what that’s called?

Justin:

No, I bet you do.

Mark:

Human nature.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I think, you know, pre marriage, whether it’s a new a second marriage, third marriage, whatever, or even there is that state we’re in while dating.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

That I think is I guess I’ve never seen it not be there. So I think it’s important to call that out. Right, but it a mask I think of as obligatory. Right, like I need to hide myself. It’s o it’s almost like a shame basing where this feels different to me. It feels more like a mask you really want to wear. Yeah, it’s like a mask that you’re hoping to become. It’s almost like Aspirational and this woman brings out the best in me, and you might believe that mask really is you because this woman brings out the best in me and look who I can be. Because I’m with her, right? I feel like it’s a little bit different in uh not that it’s not a mask, just that it feels different than when we ‘re Yeah. So anyway, what do you think? What are your thoughts?

Mark:

Oh, lots of thoughts, but uh at the same time.

Justin:

Does that feel true? I mean, does that make sense to you though? Like is that a thing

Mark:

Well that is a thing.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

That is a thing that we put our best foot forward and and granted, I think I think our dating culture promotes that.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Which, you know, it’s like, I’m gonna do these things. I’m gonna, you know, I know for Chris and I, I can, you know, I can remember how big of an adjustment It was when we actually got married and started living together, you know, she she just saw a different context of me and didn’t realize what my job entailed

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, I mean, you know, sawdust and sweat kind of, you know summise my work life And so, you know, I I like the smell of sawdust. I personally do, you know, that kind of thing. But uh she had always, you know, we had in our in the process of us being together, you know, or

Justin:

sorry about the beeps.

Mark:

That’s okay. The dating process. you know, I was typically I smelled a lot better.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, because it was it was, you know, it was weekends and and stuff and

Justin:

No, would you say that was a math? Just the fact that you were clean when you would go out with her. No, I guess that’s kind of my point. And I wouldn’t say call that a mask. I would say that’s just the nature of

Mark:

That was the nature of the circumstance, but yet it was a facet.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, to to wear, and maybe that’s kind of, yeah, not a deliberate mask, but it’s like I could still say it was because I wouldn’t go on a date with Chris.

Justin:

Smelling like Tada.

Mark:

Just I’d just come home from work and say, okay, I’m heading out for a date. You know, and show up smelling like sawdust and sweat, that kind of thing. But so yeah, I mean, yeah, I hear where you’re coming from in that process, but I think it was more or less, you know, what was acceptable, what was unacceptable in dating.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know. But so yeah, that was that was a Those snacks catching up with me. But uh that that was a pretense, you know, of us, you know, just in that dating dynamic versus, you know, living together in a full-time basis to experience the that broadness yeah that we do. And I and I think you know there’s there’s nothing wrong with maintaining that dating part of a relationship. You know, when I say mask, is there’s nothing wrong with, but yet I’m also recognizing this isn’t who I am. in a on a consistent basis.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That kind of thing. Yeah. Putting that best foot forward.

Justin:

Yeah, because that’s the thing, like we all have ugly parts, whether it’s smells or attitudes or you know what I mean? Uh toenails that are too long, whatever it is, right? Like well socks on the floor. Whatever.

Mark:

Sure. Um

Justin:

There isn’t there is no person who doesn’t have those flaws.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And but during dating, you know, we’re doing our best to hide those or minimize those. Or like I said earlier, like even even we get better at some of those things thinking this woman has changed me. Mm-hmm. But I honestly believe It’s the process that’s changed you and once that pro you know, it’s the n the state, the nature, the the The wooing the chemical things that are happening in your body. The euphoria, yeah, exactly. That’s what’s changing you. And I I also think, you know, you could potentially uh rewire some of those synapses, right? Like through that process, but it’s more likely that you attribute it to this woman, which is dangerous. Like Because once you get married you start seeing each other’s ugly sides and the the switch flips, it’s like this woman no longer does it for me. You know.

Mark:

Yeah. And I think uh, you know, I think it’s a healthy thing even in marital relationship, you know, um, being we get We date, you know, I’ll say, you know, based on the eighty percent that is a person. You follow me? We see the good, we see the and from my perspective, even in marriage, I believe all those characteristics remain.

Justin:

Yeah, the good.

Mark:

The good.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But our tendency is when we experience a certain dynamic, and like you’re saying, more of a negative dynamic. It we’re almost identifying the other 20%.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And we can focus on one or the other.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And it makes a tremendous difference in the relationship. You know.

Justin:

Yeah, absolutely.

Mark:

And I think for me, some of the s some of the saddest, you know, well, when it comes to pre-marriage stuff, you know, some of the sadder comments I hear are, you know I wish my parents had gotten divorced versus staying together. Cause I think when I grew up in such fighting s you know, such such chaotic turmoil, you know, turmoil. I I think that was harder for me than if my parents would have just gotten divorced.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And to me that’s a sad thing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because here you have this couple who, you know, really gutted it out, you know, for the sake of, you know, family and kids and so forth. And I think about that and it’s like, man, if they just had someone to talk to, you know, if we could have just dealt with a couple of those things. it would have made such a difference. And that’s the sad part to me. And I think

Justin:

that’s why you’re a marriage and th family therapist. It makes sense.

Mark:

But you know, it’s just to that point of, you know, recognizing, yeah, it’s gonna be difficult And there’s gonna be difficult there’s there’s conflict and you know I think that’s another part of the premarriage counseling is to be able to recognize that conflict is okay. Yeah. And it’s normal.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because we have these this tendency to think about things well, you know We hear from couples who say, Well, we’ve never had an argument in twenty years. It’s like, well, I’m sorry, you know. I really am sorry because you

Justin:

‘re very backed up.

Mark:

You don’t have a lot of intimacy in that. if it is, ’cause it’s just one of you isn’t known in my opinion at that point. And I think, you know, that’s where that process and gr and granted, it’s not to say there aren’t, you know, godly couples who, you know resolve conflict better. Right. But to say that we’ve had none, you know, at that that concerns me more than the couple who’s saying, yeah, we we, you know, have some disagreements and, you know, routinely it’s about this subject or this area and it’s like, okay, that’s good. You know, ’cause we can start with that and start working through it. And and I think that’s part of what premarriage is you know, in that aspect of okay There’s gonna be this twenty percent, you know, that you’re gonna be faced with And what do you do with that?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I and I think that’s where like you’re saying, I think we do we do change you know, and we, you know, early on, but I think it’s uh from my perspective, you know, it’s the next, it’s the ten years and beyond, ten year marriages and beyond that really define where change starts to happen.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s interesting.

Mark:

It’s it’s like almost the at you know, there’s always the the seven year itch type dynamics, you know, those difficult years.

Justin:

‘Cause humans are pretty resilient, right? So you can put up with seven to ten years of Sure.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But after yeah, there’s something in there, right? I guess what you’re saying where the resilience starts to wear off and

Mark:

well and I think I think at those times stressors You know, it’s

Justin:

something to do with timing too.

Mark:

It’s uh has a lot to do with life cycle stages.

Justin:

Kids.

Mark:

You know, yeah, where your kids are at, you know. ‘Cause, you know, you’ve been married seven years. Typically, you know, your kids are starting to enter into preschool, that kind of thing. And you know, the the roles are changing and, you know, my identity is changing because now I, you know have these kids that are going away from the home and you know that kind of thing and you know after that you’re you’re kinda into adolescence which has its whole other dynamic early adolescents, teenagers, you know, as they’re crossing over. So you can see these different dynamics that come into play with each with each stage. And and what goes along with it. So I mean it it connects together. Yeah. But being able to recognize, yeah, you’re gonna there’s gonna be some conflicts that come just based on the fact. And I think that’s the pre-marriage piece Yeah. Especially with these younger couples, it’s like

Justin:

preparation.

Mark:

Yeah, I I it’s like I had no idea. You know, I mean it was really that way to the point of there I I I just never imagined that you could do that or that you’d see the you know, parenting that way.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Now granted, it makes perfect sense.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

But from my perspective, your perspective seems way wrong.

Justin:

Seems foreign and foreign wrong. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

So that’s that’s part of that pre-marriage dynamic.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Is to be able to recognize, yeah, you we are far different than we’re able to recognize at this point.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

But that difference isn’t wrong. And to be able to to be able to communicate that or create that understanding now, it’s like oh that’s what Justin and Megan were telling us about. And now we’re seeing it And suddenly it’s normalized it.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Whereas in other cases without that conversation, that pre-marriage counseling, it’s like something’s wrong.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And it’s and it’s either you or it’s me. Yeah. And I’ve got an idea it’s you at this point.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, it’s good. Yeah, so Premarital counseling pre marriage is kind of b uh hopefully about setting up some proper expectations for what to expect and

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Because you know, I was just thinking about like the scenario of the ten years having year itch and what the the stressors that are around those times There’s just no way to cover that ground in pre marriage.

Mark:

No, I hear you.

Justin:

You know what I mean? So it’s more about Yeah, about setting up proper expectations for how to do life together in the long haul.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And learning to put on your You know, your boxing gloves properly and fighting rules. Yeah, exactly. And where it’s fine the boundaries what are the boundaries of our fights and

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And how many rounds do we get to go and who’s the

Mark:

and what can we spend individually without talking about it as a couple, you know, around finances, that kind of thing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, because we d we look at finances so completely different based on how we grew up. Chris and I definitely that was one of our bigger issues was the financial differences between us.

Justin:

Yeah, the other thing too, uh I mean obviously sex especially in, you know, younger couples who maybe ha who haven’t had sex yet, you know. Um as it was was w with Megan and I, you know. We had no idea what expectations there were. Well, I can’t say that. I mean I had, you know, spewed my fair share, overly fair share of porn. So I had those expectations. You know what I mean? And man, that’s when that’s like not only is it super hard expectations wise, but it’s also hard to talk about in premarriage or any time sure you know, even in marriage, like with others, counseling, whatever. I mean it’s just you know And that’s one of those subjects.

Mark:

Yeah, and that’s and I think that’s one of the, you know, areas, especially, you know, around sex and pre marriage counseling, you know, regardless of whether someone has been together previously or You know, saying it’s like

Justin:

every partner ‘s g different.

Mark:

Yeah, but being able to recognize our families don’t always teach us how to talk about that subject, you know. And so And so often in our family systems, you know, it will tend to be a perspective that, you know, sex is bad.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, don’t do this, sex is bad.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You know, but then suddenly we’re married.

Justin:

And it’s supposed to be good, and it’s all of a sudden it’s yeah, flip the switch.

Mark:

And it’s like, really?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

How do we you know, so being able to recognize that purpose for sex, you know, talk about that and the ability to be able to recognize, okay you know, learning how to talk about, okay, what’s what’s what’s good for you, what works for you, what you know, what’s uncomfortable, what doesn’t work, you know, in such a way that’s, you know like any other topic, we’re able to talk about it in a way that helps us meet each other’s needs in ways that are beneficial.

Justin:

Yeah, and like

Mark:

and I think, you know, no regular married couples have to learn how to do that. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But I think that pre-marriage piece and I’ll be honest, you know, I’ll do the premarriage counseling in a lot of cases. I mean, every time I, you know, marry a couple or whatever, but it’s interesting in that context, you know, I’ll s I’ll always follow up with like, okay, and let’s get back together in a year.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, because I think it adds so the now you know, once that first year is up, you know, then we’re starting to recognize, oh, that’s what that was about. And that was that. And then we’re able to kind of get those what what could be a ditch, you know, or a trench, were able to kind of, you know, fill that in in such a way that says, okay. Maybe that you know, w we can change some of these habits early on before we just get entrenched in them, that kind of thing. That’s why I like to follow up, you know, afterwards.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s good. And it sets the expectation too that It’s not a like pat on your butt, you’re on your way. Good luck. It’s like, no, that this is

Mark:

this is an ongoing.

Justin:

Yeah, this is uh this is just uh setting up some expectations, but the real work is after this premarital counseling is done. That’s when the rubber hits the road. So ideally, right, like counseling happens hand in hand with practicing what you’re you know what I mean?

Mark:

Oh sure.

Justin:

Where premarital counseling is a little bit harder to practice all some of that. I mean obviously you can and and I think that’s also the intention, right, is to make sure they start working on some of those things.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, in pre in the pre marriage state, as they’re planning weddings, as they’re p finding a house, all that stuff. Like, you know, there’s opportunities there, but

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, but that is the unique nature of premarriage counseling. It’s like you’re talking about a thing that’s not a thing yet, so it’s not as easy to practice those principles.

Mark:

No doubt. And it there’s a part of me that I would, you know, in what I do, the passion that I have, that kind of thing, you know, I think not that it’s full on pre-marriage counseling, but I think, you know, relationship classes. What could our our our school systems could learn could benefit from relationship classes you know early on that kind of have a healthy, you know understanding of what healthy relationship looks like. You know, that kind of thing. Cause while so often, you know, even when we do the marriage on the rock classes, which are open to, you know, pre-marriage and you know, that kind of thing. You know, so often I we’ll hear, Wan, I wish we could have gotten this information, you know, from the older couples. They’ll say, you know, I wish we could have had this twenty years ago. Mm-hmm. You know, that kind of thing. And and being able to recognize that, you know doing you know meeting with a couple like you guys are doing or reading a book or look going through a video series actually does increase our success in marriage.

Justin:

Yeah. To where

Mark:

useless. Exactly. Just wanted to affirm that process. Yeah. To where yeah. There is, you know, be s basically creating that understanding. And and I think It is part of that normalization process, you know, that says, oh, other people have ran into this issue before. It’s not just you and me. And we’re it’s you and me against the world and we’re the only ones messed up.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

In that process. It’s like, no, everybody has their issues.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And Some people are able to talk about it with other people and, you know, maybe find some tools.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s h and it’s hard to uh Talk about that without overemphasizing it ’cause I I can’t like we probably said many, many times marriage is hard in our first Overemphasizing that, but it is true and it is

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That’s a good expectation, but also it’s like but also it’s great, you know.

Mark:

I like the garden analogy.

Justin:

Okay

Mark:

Yeah. Because yeah, it’s gonna take effort. It’s gonna take work and you have to maintain a garden.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But yet there are a lot of blessings that come with it if we just choose to put the effort in. And the best way to put the effort in is on a consistent and routine basis. We can’t wait till the weeds have overgrown everything.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because then it’s it’s more work.

Justin:

Yeah. And it’s

Mark:

and it’s easier to, you know, kind of

Justin:

more work, there’s less uh Harvest I don’t know.

Mark:

Bounty.

Justin:

Yeah, less bounty due to the neglect, yeah. So it’s it’s like doubly hard because you have to make up lost ground and you’re not gonna get the same benefits yet.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? For a while till you can kinda

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s good. I like that analogy.

Mark:

And I think so.

Justin:

Secretly I ha wanted us to do this episode so I could just share it with them and be like, this way you get Mark

Mark:

Hey Mark, I got this couple. What do you think about doing uh premarriage counseling as a topic? It’s like sure

Justin:

I got my fishing rod, reeled him right in.

Mark:

Good deal. I’m all for it. I’m I’m all for helping any young couple to uh Yeah. And I think, you know, from as I’m thinking about you guys doing this, you know, being able to share, you know, the yeah, the it was tough. You know, at eras. And yet I th I still think, you know, marriage is the greatest growth producing opportunity that we have, you know, short of just

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

One-on-one relationship with Christ, you know, and um and that’s that’s typically what I get most sad about. Mm is when I think about how many divorces are occurring, you know, and and the growth opportunities that we’re missed out on.

Justin:

stunting growth and almost almost embedding a lack of growth. Yeah.

Mark:

And I and I’m and I’m gonna pull back because I’m not I’m not saying that, you know, s

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

In the aspect of someone who’s had a divorce and you know I recognize there’s a lot of factors that come into play, substance and you know, abuse and I’m not minimizing any of that. I’m just saying it’s sad when I recognize that, you know and this is this is the other part of the story that I’ll routinely hear and it it kinda reaffirms my eighty twenty type principle. It’s like how often I’ve heard, you know, well my parents couldn’t get along, they never got along, sometimes they even divorced And and now they’re good friends. You know, they’ve both remarried, but you know, suddenly they’re good friends again. Yeah. You know, and I think it’s sad, you know, when when couples aren’t able to find that because there again all the things that attracted you to somebody from my perspective have have have been there all along. So, you know, it’s like

Justin:

Do you think that’s true though? I mean you already said that. I mean short

Mark:

short of substance and abuse, you know, and and you know, where a person changes or, you know, an addiction type thing.

Justin:

I guess what I’m saying is like Uh uh just going back to the previous theory I was talking about, like for the most part Okay. I’m trying to think it through. Um

Mark:

Go ahead.

Justin:

I think it’s the m the easiest to present the best version of yourself in that dating relationship with so in a fresh relationship with a a a girl in with an intention towards marriage. And so I’m trying to decide if I think that stuff goes away or not. But I feel like the ability to reach that peak of who you are Does it go away? I don’t know.

Mark:

Hear me out.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

Okay. Um in the dynamic you were thinking about from my perspective. I would say that change is an aspect of priority.

Justin:

Yes. Agreed.

Mark:

You follow me? Oh yeah. So when I am dating, you are my prior.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

When not you personally, of course, but yeah. In that brass.

Justin:

It should be the one you’re dating, Mark.

Mark:

Exactly. Thank you for the clarification. The words we use matter. Yes. But being able to recognize, okay. I did what I did at the beginning of our relationship because you were a priority to me Human nature kicks in and suddenly that priority changes. So now sometimes work is the priority. My friends, my family can be reprioritized to where now my marital relationship comes in at two, three, four really starting to get into trouble for at fives, you know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So the reality of it is if we want to go back , you know, it’s you know, it’s It’s not a simple process, but at the same time it’s a pot it’s pot possible, plausible, but either way. In order

Justin:

to that was plausible.

Mark:

But the process becomes I have to go start I have to go back and start doing the things that I once did to bring back yeah that level of relationship And so, you know, I mean I I think, you know, run into this all the time. You know, where where, you know, touch tends to go away. Physical touch tends to go away. You know, because we’ve replaced it with just sex. So now I, you know, I have this typically it’s a typically I have this female that’s basically saying he doesn’t touch me anymore short of the bedroom

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, or I know if he’s touching me, he’s desiring to have sex type thing. You know, and that just basically is a reprioritizing. So if we want to bring that wholeness back, and then he’ll complain, well, we don’t have sex, that kind of thing. But you know, if I want to we want to bring that wholeness back, we gotta recognize no, we need non-sexual touch. you know, in the in the process of relationship. So then I’m recognized you know, that couple’s able to recognize, well, my body isn’t just a sex object. You know, I’m someone you care about, you cherish, that kind of thing. So that’s just another

Justin:

No, I I love all that. Now hear me up.

Mark:

Yes, go right ahead. Let her rip. I love all that, but let me speak.

Justin:

Everyone knows that’s how I am. Uh, no no no. I I do uh I do uh appreciate that and I think that’s a good way to reframe the conversation about priorities. I guess I guess the perspective that I’m coming from is sure in the um premarriage relationship where it’s an unhealt healthy level of priority. So ‘Cause that that I’m kinda coming even from my own perspective and you know, how I kinda remember being it was Megan was everything. And to the degree where I would argue was unhealthy, it I would say it didn’t negatively impact my life in a ton of ways, but there’s pr it probably did in ways I didn’t realize it. But the definitely a level

Mark:

if Megan hadn’t been more healthy It could have definitely had a profound impact on you based on the fact that you saw her as number one versus Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, and she and she could have embraced that as being yeah, that’s right and and then yeah. Um so I I guess that’s kinda where I’m was coming from in the sense of there’s a level of priority that’s unhealthy and therefore I did things that I sh will not ever do again and or should not do just in terms of priority, right? Like one example I can think of is leaving work. to go visit her. Like, no, you should do work. That’s that’s what a man does. That’s what you’re supposed to do. Um, now I I see your look and I think yeah, I think it’s okay to go get la that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying like when I abandon the responsibilities that I’m responsible for those in

Mark:

So where’s that line?

Justin:

Well, I don’t I think you have to figure that out. But um

Mark:

because there might be

Justin:

a lot of healthy level of uh

Mark:

And I would say, I would say here again, I’m I’m clarifying, when I say number one, that’s that’s second to God.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

God, God, my relationship with Jesus Christ always has to be foundational to do healthy relationship

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because then I’m actually able to recognize better prioritization

Justin:

Yeah, it’s good.

Mark:

Because because it’s easy to make work, you know, because that’s tied into my identity.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, it’s easy to make work my priority and then I s tell my wife Yes, I love you, that’s why I’m working 70 hours a week. Mm-hmm. Okay. Well, no, that really has little to do with that desire to provide, which I’m understanding part of the difference between the male-female dynamic, you know, but at the same time uh when you’re talking about Megan being too high or you know that the healthy number one, I think there’s also something to be said for we can make that person Jesus to us.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And that is unhealthy because ultimately we’re, you know She’s a great Meg and she’s a lousy Jesus.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

So when I am, you know, or when in relationship I have too high priority, you know, on that person and I am And that and I would kind of put it in the terms of that person becomes my reason for living, right? You know, then I am that is an unhealthy relationship. It’s, you know, it’s I would say codependent.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, because all my happiness depends on your happiness.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And so yeah, that’s unhealthy relationship. And that would be an area where, you know, we’d have to say, okay, yeah, we need to start working on some of these other priorities. Not that they would necessarily listen to you at that point, or me for that matter, but I’m saying You know, sometimes it would be a matter of saying, you guys aren’t ready yet.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, but

Justin:

I th

Mark:

a lot of people won’t necessarily listen at that point either.

Justin:

Right. Yeah.

Mark:

Go ahead. W you like what I’m saying, but it’s your turn to speak.

Justin:

Uh I like what you’re saying. No no no, I I do. I I think that’s great. I think uh often too like we’ll will hold up the old dating version of ourselves as like like our spouse will hold that as the ideal or or I might I might about myself.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But I think it’s Probably fair to say that a majority of dating relationships aren’t perfect relationships. They’re I would I would argue that um You know, there’s probably a lot of that replacing number one, you know, and putting them there and therefore again the way we operate.

Mark:

Help me understand that what replacing number one

Justin:

kind of like rising to the top of priority list over God over everything, right? I think that that seems not uncommon, especially f in the environment I grew up in where you know we it was a church environment and it was like when pe couple started dating Yeah, it was it just reached it again, more often than not, I saw priorities shift to the degree where it seemed unhealthy to m to me, even in my young state and looking back to I I say all that to say that if we hold that as the ideal, the unhealthy version of ourselves that put you at a priority above God, then that we’re always gonna have a bad set of expectations too. Agreed. So like saying you need to be like you were when you’re dating may may not be the correct state. And I would argue maybe rarely is the right statement. It’s more about Yeah, I think learning from some of the things we did in dating and how priority the priority was higher and s that still needs to be the case. Like they still need to be you know the number one priority besides God or whatever and shifting some of those things to look more like dating, but in a healthier context. I don’t know, that that yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It’s your turn.

Mark:

Oh, okay. And my turn to speak. But I I think, you know, we in that wooing that you describe.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay. It’s easy to recognize that we lose the desire to pursue our spouse.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

It can it can tend to minimize, you know, because there are other things.

Justin:

Well, because we won, right? Like that’s

Mark:

there’s something to be said for that. Yes, that’s the human nature component. Yeah. It’s like I especially as males, you know, we’ve achieved you know, our our desire. So now we’re on to pursuing other things. You know, and so therefore work does become more important because now I want the boat, I want the car, I want all the other things that go along. with having my wife.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and yet from her perspective, all of these other things become more important than she is. Mm-hmm. And my tendency is to say, oh, you’re the most important person to me, but that’s not reflected in my actions. What my actions say is all these other things are more important to me. So I just bless you, sir. I just My words don’t replace my actions.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And so often that’s the difficult process is it’s like, you know, I love you.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, I that’s why I do all that I do.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And no, that’s not always the case. And that’s, you know, coming from a reformed workaholic, you know, in that process. But yeah, it is to the point of being able to say, okay. What is what does it look like and how do we redefine this? Because and I think that is a part of it, is I have to I have to in s a lot of cases redefine my identity

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because sometimes, you know, in that in that relationship you were talking about, it’s like that person may not have even liked their identity So now I have this other person that’s adding value to my identity. Now, you know, this is gonna be wonderful. This is gonna be great. Somebody who loves me unconditionally. Who accepts me all the time. Okay. Unhealthy expectation.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You know, but yet it’s understandable you know, based on that identity that I have, you know. So being able to, you know, walk with couples in such a way that says, okay Yeah, your identity will shift. You will become Mr. and Mrs. You know? And you know, this is this is just a first step. in a number of identity changes. Because your jobs are gonna change. You know, you’re gonna have kids. You’re gonna be you’re gonna be Susie or Johnny’s mom. You know, someday and that ident you know, or dad, you know, these there’s gonna be these series of identity changes that come in this process.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And each identity change is gonna have some conflict or some, you know, rupture and repair that goes along with that. hopefully the repair, but you know, it’s gonna be an adjustment. There’s gonna be certain aspects of conflict. And that when, you know, as we’re talking with young couples, being able to recognize, yeah There’s absolutely nothing wrong when that conflict comes. It just means that something has changed.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I may not even necessarily be sure of what it is, but that’s where self and others’ awareness kind of comes into that. Dynamic.

Justin:

That’s also where iron sharpens iron comes in, right? Yeah, because I mean a marriage that Your rough edges are going to rub against your partner and vice versa. Yep. And so that’s an opportunity.

Mark:

Yeah. Nice job. Yes, that’s an opportunity. That’s a opportunity for conflict.

Justin:

Yeah And so the to slowly sharpen each other, yeah. Although that metaphor conflicts cause sharp edges sharpening, yeah. But you get the point.

Mark:

Yeah, but you know, sharp isn’t bad.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

You take a scalpel for incidence. Yes. You know, that kind of thing. Yeah, the cut seems to be but ultimately it’s about healing eventually.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know. And

Justin:

learning to yeah. Smooth down some rep edges and sharpen other ones that should be sharpened yeah. And but that’s that’s an opportunity you have together to to grow together and to hear what they’re saying when your flaws are hurting them or, you know, rubbing them the wrong way and that’s an opportun like you said, growth. There’s a lot of growth.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

So many growth opportunities in marriage, right?

Mark:

And I think that’s where, you know, God’s word comes to play. It’s a double-edged sword. You know, it has that ability to to cut yet heal in that process, you know, and as we both spend time in God’s word, you know, God’s able to use his word to heal me, you know. apart from Chris. And yet she’s a also a part of that healing process because it’s like she’s re she’s um bringing it into my awareness. Um revealing. That’s the word I was looking for. She’s revealing my my weaknesses. You know, and you know, and She does a good job of lovingly calling that out in most cases to the point of saying, Hey, you do you see how much time you’re spending doing this or doing that? And, you know, in comparison to how much it’s like Good point. Valid point.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It’s good.

Mark:

So she helps me create those boundaries that, you know, are saying, okay. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, another thing um that we do is in in premarriage is we look at these things that are really good about the person. And often I mean this is something actually, um, the couple brought up, but like often in marriage it flipped to where that’s the thing you resent. You know what I mean? And so that’s a common

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um how trying to get them to remember what they appreciate about that person that’s that same thing and I don’t know, for me, as always, the stick comes to mind, right?

Mark:

Yes, it does.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. This thing, you know, like uh For instance, you you know, you mentioned work, but he’s a hard worker, you know, and that’s what drew me to him. That’s a, you know you know, made me really love him and I could just see that he had that integrity to get up and go to work and really just, you know you know, man up, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And then, you know, like you said, in marriage it it all kind of shifts and well that same characteristic is now bothersome because I want him home with me.

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

You know? And um Yeah, and being able to understand both as him and as her the stick nature where yeah you like this end of the stick but it comes with this other end which is maybe doesn’t come home as early as you’d like. And that’s not good. Like I’m not saying that’s good. Like he needs to learn how to keep that stick balance, right? And that’s my whole theory, right? Is like he needs to understand that. While you’re a hard worker, it cannot, you know, come at this price of, you know, betraying your wife by not, you know And vice versa, she has to have that same balance in her mind of that really bothers me, but it’s also what wooed me to him. And it also uh still what I value and love about him is that he’ll get up, g get to work And making it happen for our family and like being able to keep that in balance is a challenge, but I think important. What do you think?

Mark:

Well, I was thinking about the the idea of balance. Um I would propose in some ways the differences between men and women. Um men will not, in my opinion, have the same level of balance where relationship is concerned. I think women were designed differently, you know, and I think and I think relationship is a higher priority for them.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And they have a greater concern about maintaining relationship than guys do. So you know the the s the stick analogy while good, I don’t think we can always say, well, you just need to balance like I balance I think sometimes I have to willingly I have to recognize that, yeah, part of who Chris is designed to be as that easer, if you will, that helpmate. is that understanding of being able to help me recognize when my relationship priorities are out of line.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think, you know, women are Let’s just uh let’s be honest. Um, the majority of couples that come into my office are typically not led by the men.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me?

Justin:

Right. Yep.

Mark:

I’m just that that’s just I’m not I’m not trying to speak out of just my experience, but yes, that is to to where women have that dynamic and I think so often in our maleness, um we can see that as crazy jealousy You follow me? When the priorities are when as men, when our wives say, hey, our relationship is, you know, suffering. You know, we see that, you know, you’re doing this, you’re doing that. We see it as crazy jealousy.

Justin:

As in they’re wrong for

Mark:

Yes, be they are just too sensitive. They have that’s that But in reality, I believe that’s healthy jealousy.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Just like God has, you know, his his name is jealous. You know, one of his names is jealous to the point of he doesn’t want anything else to not that it’s you know minimizes who he is but he just cares about us that much to where he doesn’t want other things coming between us and him. And I think, you know, he’s given that design, if you will, more so towards women. And I think as men it’s helpful for us to reflect on that to be able to say because I think so often, and this is part of that pre-marriage counseling piece, if you will, write this one down. Um no, I’m just kidding. Avoiding the defensiveness.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, cause so often our tendency is to react out of defensiveness in that process. You don’t know. Well Now just listen for a second and try to just accept influence because this is something you probably need to hear. And if you’re just becoming defensive then you’re likely not hearing and

Justin:

I mean I can write that down and I could say that. How do you tell someone, remember, don’t be defensive. Like how

Mark:

That’s a good job. Nice job. You just told me not to be defensive. Now just now what I need you to do is tell me what it looks like in me.

Justin:

Okay. To not be defensive.

Mark:

To not be defensive.

Justin:

I like that. Okay.

Mark:

You follow me? It’s

Justin:

I’ll write that.

Mark:

When I start You know I was joking, but that’s okay.

Justin:

I have a list, so I’m just I’m adding it.

Mark:

What is what does defensiveness look like in me?

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

And then, you know, that process of it’s likely gonna involve the word you versus I.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, if you didn’t You know, I wouldn’t. That’s that’s the beginning of defensiveness.

Justin:

I got it written out.

Mark:

You know, avoiding avoiding defensiveness is a phrase that helps us avoid defensiveness is the ability to say, okay, I hear where you’re coming from. Help me understand that better.

Justin:

Yeah, help me under I’m gonna write that down. Help me understand.

Mark:

This is free to you, Justin, I promise.

Justin:

The bill’s in the mail. Yeah. Yeah, that’s good. Y you say that a lot, you know, outside this context. Help me understand. Um like you say that yourself personally, um, but you also say it in context of these type of things and I think That’s just a really good Yeah. Uh practice if you’re feeling defensive to go try and embrace that terminology. Not just the terminology though, the philosophy, right?

Mark:

Yeah. The desire to understand. Because so often in the midst of a conflict and and that’s kind of what’s began a you know this had this, you know, how I see it.

Justin:

I don’t mean like help me understand why you’re a jerk.

Mark:

Exactly. Yeah. Really. Help me understand where that feelings come from. Help me understand what you saw in me. Help me understand, you know, and how how did that impact you? You know, this ability to there again. Others awareness. You know, because if a person’s having a conflict with me, you know, likely there’s an issue and I need to know more about that. to be able to come to a resolution. Not that we always have to have agreement, but there’s the ability to create resolution.

Justin:

Right. Yeah, in thinking again about common r you know, roles between men and women, I think it’s very common for a m um a man to not uh Yeah, to not think about other, right? And to process everything through his own skull, you know, and like what does this mean for me? What is she saying and what does it mean for me? Versus How does this impact her and how am I impacting her? It’s more like what is she saying and how’s it impacting me? What am I gonna have to do now to placate her? And it’s more about

Mark:

Yeah, go ahead, sorry.

Justin:

And I think women are uh better about that, but almost can become a flaw in the other direction. The codependence of like, oh, is he upset? Did I do what do I need to do to make sure he’s not upset? And it’s That’s the opp that’s the other end of the continuum that’s also unhealthy and there needs to be both directions move towards the middle, right, where um A man needs to be thinking, did I upset her?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

What did I do? That needs to happen more often. A woman probably needs to think that less Maybe. I don’t know.

Mark:

And part of what you’re describing there, and we can talk about this too, is is the the the love styles.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That’s a that’s a you know, becoming great creating an awareness about love styles and what my tendencies are. help me understand, you know, my family systems and where I’ve come from.

Justin:

User friendly. That was the episode on

Mark:

Love Styles. Yes.

Justin:

I was like, I know we didn’t name it Love Styles.

Mark:

No, user friendly. Yeah. And and yet I think, you know, so often part of the communication dynamic we’re running into is like you described, guys as as a rule will tend to um they’ll tend to think about things in their own mind so much so to the point of I know we’ve talked about this when in reality the female the you know the the wife is just hearing that information the first time you know maybe after the fact or even right before the fact. So it seems as a big surprise to her. And, you know, he’s looking at his wife saying What do you mean? We’ve talked about this before when in reality that that thought has never been verbalized.

Justin:

Right, because he thinks it’s a hive mind situation.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

She’ll just un intuit all my thoughts.

Mark:

Exactly. She knows, you know, which both directions.

Justin:

I think there is Women do have a s a supernatural ability sometimes to intuit th things. So I think m mm maybe sometimes uh a guy gets confused because she didn’t intuit this thing where she has in the past. She has a lot of things. Use your words, guy.

Mark:

Yeah. And so often that can also be a detrimental conversation or communication. I know what you’re thinking. That’s right. I know why you did that. Yeah. It’s like, no, yeah.

Justin:

We

Mark:

gotta pull that back.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So yeah, that ability to read minds and think we know what someone is thinking based on the action we saw.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

There’s so many opportunities for growth in marriage.

Mark:

Yes, there are.

Justin:

And I think that’s what a premarriage is about is embracing that concept.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

This is an ongoing opportunity to grow and live.

Mark:

This is a sanctifying process. I can become more Christ-like through this process.

Justin:

But also What you get back is an amazing relationship that’s unlike any other relationship in your life. Sure. You know, the level of intimacy. Physically, mentally, emotionally, you know, all those things, you won’t you can’t have it any other type of relationship. So that’s what you get in return. You know, you get this amazing relationship that You know, because I again I I was challenged about how many times I say it was marriage is difficult. Like, no, but also this is the benefit of it, right? Um

Mark:

Yeah. Talk with anybody who’s married been married over twenty years and you know you’ll you’ll hear about, you know, the difficult times. But You’ll also at the same time if if they have their stick in in order, you know, you’ll hear about the blessings that come through those difficult times and when we’ve you know

Justin:

Thank you for using the stick. It’s about time, Mark.

Mark:

I try Justin, I try.

Justin:

I want I want I don’t know all your clients, but I know some of them and I want to hear them come out of the meeting and say, Did you know Mark you should your stick? That’s my My dastardly plan.

Mark:

Yeah, I was talking with Mark and he mentioned your stick the other day. That would that Justin Justin would you would be very proud of that moment. Yes So but here again we can uh we can think about it in terms of the continuum.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

The continuum’s kinda like your stick anyway. So yeah.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Finding that shared likeness, if you will.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So yeah. Well, by all means, just in blessings to you in that process and to that couple. Like you say, I know of them and I wish them all the blessings of uh happy marriage and yeah.

Justin:

Any advice you have for them since you know who it is. It’s your last opportunity to fix it before we mess it up.

Mark:

Uh just make your relationship yeah Christ centered and you know be like Justin and Megan. They’re good folk. Yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

It was up all good up until

Mark:

Keep Christ the center. But that’s what you guys do.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. You guys do that. And so yeah, it’s okay to say be like Justin and Megan, keeping Christ in the center.

Justin:

Also be like Mark and Kristen.

Mark:

Well, yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Exactly. Yeah, what Paul says.

Mark:

Yeah. Be like me. Yeah. You know, it’s like, yeah, I’m okay with that. And if if you’re if that means modeling Christ-centered relationship to the best of your ability, I’m okay with that.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

See.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

That’s a that’s a good way to say how we see it.

Mark:

That’s right. That’s how we see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do.

Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C-L-I -C -K. Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.