Today we explore the concept of pride; the positive and negative facets, and examine its implications in various contexts such as personal achievements, national pride, and parenting. We compare the differences between humility and false humility, highlighting the delicate balance between accepting compliments graciously and avoiding excessive self-focus. This episode also emphasizes the importance of recognizing one’s limitations and staying grounded while striving for personal growth. Tune in for an insightful exploration of pride, humility, and the complexities of navigating self-worth.

Transcript

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Yeah. As we sit, when we think of being proud, when we think of pride, is that a positive thing or is pride a negative thing? Yes. Oh, nice.

There’s there’s some polarization there for you. So so talk with me about that. When you, when you think of pride, you know, being proud, there’s two things that come to mind probably for most listeners.

Me, for sure, that I’m proud of you. The pride in your nation, kind of that proud to be in America, like hat off pride or like beaming pride, or like, that’s my boy kind of pride. Yeah.

Or that’s your girl. Yeah. My child.

That’s my child. You had to pick one in that. I’m hearing where you’re coming from.

Yeah. And then the flip side right. Which is kind of like prideful, having the negative pride of not being willing to change or not being willing to admit when you’re wrong or thinking you’re better than you are.

And so kind of more in that arrogance side of things. There’s stubborn side of things, but even in the more positive dynamic, when I think about pride, I’m going to probably be erring on the side of I’m not sure pride is that great of thing as we establish it to be. Okay, this is what we’re about.

Yeah, exactly. And I think about it in that context of even my child. Okay.

My nation. Yeah. I think about it in that context of that use of the word my.

And so often my tendency is to think, okay, we did this, I did this, and I kind of make it about God had nothing to do with it. A bunch of guys got together and they signed a Declaration of Independence and they fought for our freedom, and we have this nation apart from God type. That’s the core, is what you’re saying.

That’s not what we would say. No, we wouldn’t necessarily say that. But I think in that context of my, that’s where it kind of has a bitter flavor for me when I hear that.

And there’s no clarification, I guess, where we’re able to recognize, okay, all of these factors wouldn’t have come together or wouldn’t have even been allowed if there hadn’t been this from my perspective, this god that orchestrated the timing of storms and rain events and just all those things, I would say those miracles that basically formed our nation. Yes, agreed. But that’s not to say that I’m not willing to hear somebody when they speak about what their child has done.

Yeah. I think there is an element of pride that I would argue isn’t bad, and I think that’s maybe kind of where we’re going back and forth a little bit, but when you think of being part of a representative, being represented by a group so I think of the United States and the Olympics. Right, okay.

Sure. And you see them take the gold and you have this pride and it’s like they represent me, and therefore I feel that pride. Right, sure.

And same with your child. It’s like they represent me, and I am proud. And like you said, certainly it can become self pride in the sense that you remove God and say, but I also think it’s okay to do that.

I think that’s the conversation. So that’s my thought. The other thing I think about Paul saying I boast in my afflictions, and he talks about different things.

I could boast about my credentials. Sure. Because I’ve done this.

He basically lists his credentials. Sure. He said, but instead I boast about the fact that I’m in prison for you or my afflictions.

And he’s basically saying, I’m proud of that part of me. Sure. You know, so again, I think there’s an example of, you know, arguably the greatest apostle.

Sure. Come in. The door just opened on its own.

A little bit creepy. Was it Paul, the ghost of Paul, here to claim his pride? It’s Memorial Day. It is the week of Memorial Day.

Maybe we’re on veterans burial ground and we don’t know it. There you go. All right.

Anyway, so that’s kind of the ping to your pong. Okay. Your turn.

Yeah. No. And I think this is probably a little more of where I come back to.

I see in that continuum, when we think about pride, I think about it in the context of humility. You follow me. And I think humility is probably more the side that I would lean towards being able to recognize, and I would say false humility is just as wrong as arrogant pride.

Yeah. Which I would love to branch over there in a second. Okay.

I don’t want to interrupt you. Yeah. That’s probably in that continuum, that’s probably more so the side that I have to be mindful of.

Got you. I was having a conversation. Oh, yeah.

It was interesting because when you meet people out in public, I think you get a little better sense of who you are in the public eye. You follow me. You’re a public figure now.

No. To this podcast. No, I’m a public figure just because I interact with people, and it was interesting.

This is a perfect example of Mark’s humility. It’s deflection. Well, and that is a part because I happened to run into a person like estate sales.

What? It was a neighbor. Okay. And something about she was introducing me a neighbor was introducing me to another person and said, he’s a nice guy type stuff.

Probably a lot more. I fell into my deflection and she called it out. She said, now, don’t be so humble.

But it’s like and I think we’ve talked about that in different podcasts. That aspect of being able to take a compliment and how we can. So yeah, that’s kind of if we’re going to align on that continuum, that’s going to be my tendency.

You sneak towards yes. Sneak. Cheat.

However, you I’m going to be more probably aligned on that side, like you said about Paul. And even like I’ll use Jimmy Evans, he has one session where he’s talking about raising great kids, and he’ll come right out and say, when we were raising our kids, we said we want our children to be just like us. And I can appreciate that in that sense, that I’m setting a standard like Paul, that if you follow this, this is how you need to live.

And I can get behind that in some ways. And yet I’m always going to say, there’s a better option. I want you to slingshot past me.

Yeah, right. Like, take what I built or where I’m at and go past that crawl on my back. Or here’s jesus.

And he’s faultless. Because as a parent, I’m going to recognize let’s both go towards that. Yeah.

Together. Exactly. That’s good.

And I’m going to do what I can to be as good a model of who Jesus is. And yet I’m going to recognize, and I know this is going to strike a chord for you. I’m going to recognize I don’t have sufficient strength to do it all.

And here’s where it gets a little fuzzy for me, or difficult, because I think pride in that middle ground has the ability to allow subtle lies to slip through. I think of Adam and Eve in that aspect. I think pride can make us a little more susceptible.

And I think in some ways, even in our culture, we can think about Adam and Eve and say, well, what did they know? Come on now. They probably weren’t that smart. We’re much smarter now.

We’ve evolved. We’re smarter. We have technology.

So we’re less susceptible to those things that Adam and Eve were. And, yeah, I believe in a lot of cases, satan still works in the same ways with those subtle lies that did God really say that? And I think the more go ahead, not only discredits some truth, but also just to tie back into, I think maybe what you were saying will basically flatter us and build up our own version of ourselves to where now we can justify behavior that doesn’t align with the authority because yeah, but I’m ultimately something bigger. And I’ll be honest, I think that’s the part that makes me uncomfortable when I feel flattered.

Yeah. Because I don’t want it to puff me up in such a way that I become yeah, I’m all that. When in reality, I know I’m not all that.

Yeah. And it’s so interesting because, first of all, I appreciate how you are and I appreciate who you are. He’s like, Stop, here he goes again.

That being said, as a balance, I definitely think you could take compliments better. Yeah. In my minds, I hear responses from you that would make me happier.

Right. In those responses, to be able to hear you go, well, thank you. It was a good long road or I’m glad we got there, whatever.

But thank you. That’s nice of you to say. Accepting a compliment as a gift is something that I try to work on because I don’t want to minimize the gratitude other people may feel.

Yeah. And also, I think it is important. Okay.

So I’m coming from a background where I struggle with self esteem and self confidence growing up, so I’ve had to learn to have both of those things. Sure. So self esteem being appreciation for self, essentially, I hear you.

Appreciation for what I have to offer and being comfortable with that talents and abilities. Yeah. And then self confidence being a recognition that yeah.

Based on the things that I have and that I’m good at, I can therefore proceed in that and feel confident in that. And for me, I came from a deficit. I had to work into those things.

And so kind of that the way that you’re basically saying that you are, and that makes you tend to slide towards that, I think. Maybe correct me if I’m wrong, I’d be interested. Kind of comes from the other perspective, maybe, of pride in home pride and family and just like, a really strong core of pride where you grew up and how you felt about things.

I would love to know your thoughts and maybe you came from the exact same well, you mean how I grew up? That’s what you’re asking me? Kind of how you grew up and just kind of how you felt internally about yourself growing up as a result of the environment. Sure. It’s funny, because I was honestly thinking about this just a moment ago in that process of my family system.

And I recognize, and I probably shared a little more in my testimony type stuff, that dynamic that I grew up, where I had an older brother who was definitely desired to be seen, not in an arrogant immediately, all the tetris pieces kind of fell in line for me. I’m following you. Yeah.

From that dynamic. He was just louder, more energetic, more voice. You just knew he was in the room type thing.

And that’s great. I love my brother, that kind of thing. But I think that affected my it’s like people say, well, we grew up in the same household.

No, we didn’t really grow up in the same household, because the minute I came along, the dynamic changed. So yes, while we existed in the same building, that household changed is when another child is born. Yeah.

Because certain characteristics aren’t available. You follow me? If my older brother had those tendencies, he had them on lock. Yeah.

There’s no need for me to go there. Yeah. So I think that was where I adopted a more subtle way of not necessarily even trying to be noticed.

A more subversive or covert way of staying below the radar. That kind of my middle daughter Jewel, too. Okay.

Yeah. Like, almost. Like, get that spotlight off of me.

Yeah, very much so. Yeah. It’s like my oldest daughter is I’ll take that.

Thank you. Exactly. And that’s how you see it.

And I see it through my daughter. Exactly. And so that’s where that comes from for me, because I just don’t have a desire.

Now, if somebody asks me to do something based on my role or abilities, I’m willing to say, yeah, if you want me to speak to that, I’m happy to speak to that. But at the same time, there’s other people I’m sure that would do just as good a job, if not better. That kind of thing will be what’s in my mind.

So going back to that alley of false humility okay, sure. That side jaunt. What’s interesting about that is, again, on that end of the spectrum, it can still become about me.

Oh, sure. It’s a false form of pride. Right.

It’s a form of pride. Yeah, exactly. It’s a false true humility, which is a form of pride.

Yeah, I’d agree. Sorry. No, it’s a great clarification.

It’s basically saying, I want you to tell me how good I am. Yeah, exactly. Because you didn’t say that loud enough.

Right. But even in the attempt to shut it down can be an attempt to demonstrate the type of virtues you have. Sure.

Right. It can signal that. Does that make sense? Because we consider someone who oh, no, that’s not me, or whatever.

If that’s how you are, you consider that to be better. Right? Sure. And therefore you’re signaling this is better.

And again, I’m not saying that’s what Mark does. I’m saying that’s where the false humility can come in. Because now you feel humble, you feel virtuous.

Sure. But there’s that term. Right.

Virtue signaling. Oh, sure. Like I’m virtue signal.

I’m saying, like, I’m a man, you know, I have this these virtues that can’t allow your silly little flatters in my virtuous heart, you know what I mean? To take it all the way to that extreme or whatever. And so I think that’s part of it, too, is like, how do we handle those conversations in a way that still doesn’t make it about me? Yeah. Right.

And that’s the hard part. I really think that’s hard. And I think I’ve talked to my daughter, my kids a few times about how to handle compliments.

And one of the things we say and what you kind of alluded to earlier is just to say thank you. Sure. Thank you.

Yeah. That’s a nice thing. And if you say it a genuine way, then tone makes a lot of difference there.

It does. Yeah. Thanks.

Of course. Anyway, because again, if you say, oh, no, I don’t want to hear that, or whatever, again, I do think it’s very much virtue signaling. Even when you don’t mean it to be.

It can have that flavor to it. Also, the context of the hearer matters. Right.

So some people will hear that and go, he’s such a sweet, humble person, or she’s such so sweet and humble. And other people may not they’d be like, she can’t take a compliment or remind me never to compliment her again. I don’t know.

So in that context, for you of pride, what would be a comment? What would be a signal that would kind of raise a red flag for you with a person or even something that you might say? If you were to stop and think about what would be? Because here again, I’m just putting the conversation out there in that continuum. What would be something that you would say? Okay, that might be a little too far. What signals would you be looking for? Flags.

Would you? Good question. I pretty much don’t look at anything on that end of the spectrum badly. Okay.

I accept the virtue signal. I’m like you, Mark, in the sense that to me, that end is better and like, that’s that’s kind of what I say. That end, that end of the continuum of, like, humility and deflection, like, that’s.

I’m I’m not as far on that end as you, and I would love, you know, to hear your perspective on on me or whatever, but for me, the further towards that continuum, the better of a person you are. It’s kind of my natural bent, and I think you and I are similar in that way of, like, just be humble or deflect, that kind of thing. And so when I talk about the Virtue signal, all those things that’s, like, kind of anti me.

Does that make sense? Sure. So that being said, there’s not signals where someone says, that where I’m like you generally. I mean, like, oh, that’s nice, whatever.

Okay. And I don’t know that there’s very many people that would see that as gross, but I think there’s probably a few out there, right? Sure. I do think that has a better flavor than the humility end of the spectrum.

Yeah, it’s more palatable. Okay, well, then start there, if I may start where explain what would be an indicator that you’ve gone too far in that direction, then? Well, for me personally, it’s about like you already teased about, like, tell me more. No, don’t stop.

I hear you. But do I got you the idea of putting yourself down so much that it’s like, they have to, like, you’re, like, forcing them to recover from your overstatement. Sure.

And you’re kind of clarifying seeing how serious they really are about their compliment and basically fishing, right? Yeah. I think there’s a lot of forms of humility that ends up just being fishing, and again, very much false humility because it’s like, oh, I’m just humble. But it’s false in the sense that I really want to know more, and I want to see how serious you are about that compliment.

I want to hear more about it or even compliment my virtues on top of the thing you’re complimenting, you know what I mean? Yeah. So that, to me, is where it can be gross. I’ve definitely seen that in my life.

Right. Like where that’s happening. No doubt.

It’s very gross. I think I’ve done it. Right.

I think I’ve done it. Sure. Certainly.

And that’s why I’m saying that part. What would be a red flag even in your life, let alone definitely. That where it’s like I’m waiting for a response to my response.

Sure. I think that would be the signal. And so that’s, again, personally, where I’ve really had because I’ve talked about this a lot in the past, approval, addiction, people pleasing, that kind of thing.

So I’m always looking for compliments. I mean, I never want them to stop. I would like the stream to just continue just intravenously.

The stream is nice, but a river is even better. Comments on our post, please. And we’d love to hear from you.

That’s no joke. I call it addiction, but it’s like deep seated, quote unquote need that I have that I have to continually work on calling and just being healthy about it. Right.

And I think it has a lot to do with upbringing. Just certain. It’s kind of like the idea of a stray pet that didn’t get much food.

So it’s like every time you feed them, they just scarf it down as fast as possible because they don’t know when the next meal is coming and they’re that way the rest of their life even though they’re in a healthy home now. I think in some ways it’s similar to that. Tim.

Sure. Okay. That’s a good analogy.

Thank you. Yeah. Thank you.

Tell me more about that. No, Mark, it was terrible analogy. Terrible.

No, but I could see that. Yeah. I’m trying out all the sizes of this response.

You’re using your lever to shift yourself continuum. Exactly. So that being said, how would you know? You’ve gone too far in the pride area as you shift, as you have that ability.

Yeah, let me think about it. That’s good. That’s good thinking.

I think my eyes are closed, my eyes rolling back, squint. I don’t know how much it surfaces out of me. I’m kind of of the mind that out of the heart.

The mouth speaks. I think the way you think leaks out of you no matter what. But as far as in the moment, that actual I don’t know that I signal it super clearly to someone listening unless you really knew me.

But I think for me, it’s the response in my heart is yeah, or like I know, or like you don’t know the half of it. You know what I mean? I don’t know. Almost bitter that you’re saying it, because it’s like you don’t even know.

I don’t know already know because I know. And I know way more than you know about how much effort was put into it or how hard I’ve worked towards that or whatever. And it’s almost like your compliment is petty.

Sure. Does that make sense? If you only knew yeah. Exactly how much I’d put into that, you would say more.

Yeah. Your compliment almost feels backhanded. It’s almost like an assault front.

Yes. Like offensive. Yeah.

I would say that’s kind of my extreme. On the other end. I got you.

And again, I don’t think I would try and indicate that to you as someone complimenting. I think I would just be like, thank you. Sure.

In my heart. So that would be the other end. Yeah.

I’ve experienced the gamut. I would say those things. And I appreciate your analogy, that use of the difference between the mind and the heart.

I think those morsels kind of go to the heart, to the inner part of a man. When we start thinking about that arrogance and that pride, it can kind of easily kind of go to who we are. And like you’re saying, it actually reveals our heart at times.

I’m thinking about it in the context of people we interact with, too. And I think for me, and I use the word right there, pronouns are huge, as far as I’m concerned. Not in the context of definition so much, but in the process of I and me when I’m listening to other people versus we and they in that context of inclusion.

And it was interesting. I happened to be lizzy got me a book. If you don’t know who Lizzie is, listen to the brains.

Sure. Mark Batterson. He’s one of my go to people as far as what else is he written? That name is very familiar.

He’s in a pit with a lion on a snowy day. Chasing the wild goose. No, those are his early works.

He’s just written one more so recently, please. Like, three words that change the world. Please, sorry and thanks.

That kind of thing. And it was interesting because the first one, I think, was please. But he talked about over in England, the Prime Minister’s, I believe, was the prime Minister’s mother, and she had back to back meetings with these heads of state, if you will, these influential leaders.

And the one individual from the first night, her comment was that when I left the room, I thought he was the most clever man in all of Europe. The prime minister. This was the who was saying what? The mother the mother, the prime Minister’s mother was stating that about the individual she had sat with that night.

Got you. So the first night, she sat with an individual, and when that interaction was over, she left the room thinking that that man was the cleverest man in Europe. I’m caught up now.

Thank you. So the next evening, the same woman, the Prime Minister’s mother, had sat down and had an interaction with another individual. And she said, when I left the room that evening, I thought I was the cleverest person in Europe.

You follow me? He went on to state how that individual and it’s kind of interesting that you think about it. It’s interesting when I think about it in the context of pride. He went on to say there’s two people that when they come into a room, there’s two reactions.

One person comes in and says I’m here. That would be kind of where I described how my brother was more so my oldest daughter. Yeah, that kind of thing.

And the other person says there you are. Yes. And that I think was the difference in that prime Minister, that part of am I self focused and here I am or am I others focused and there you are.

That’s so cool. Yeah, that’s good. And I think that’s where I come back to.

The pronouns make such a difference when I’m listening to people and in that process, when I’m hearing when I’m hearing someone use I and me, you know, even in the context of their, you know, being there with a spouse, being there with us, interacting with their spouse, and they’re still using that sense of I and me versus we and us that’s just one of my little flags that I’ll tend to and now every listeners so feel free to call me out. But yeah, in that context I think that is an important dynamic and there you go. That being said, I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with your oldest daughter versus your youngest daughter.

No, I don’t want it to go that far. Your brother or my brother. No, it’s not a right and wrong.

Well, that gets back to the stick thing. So again, if you know what the stick is, we have previous no, but the stick thing of like there are some benefits to my oldest daughter and your brother that clearly have played out in their life. I would definitely say my daughter, I don’t know your brother.

And then obviously some weaknesses attached to those things. It’s a stick thing but same with you and Jewel and kind of your deference or deflection very much a stick thing. Like I see values in both of my daughters the way they are.

Sure proud of them both. There you go. Yes.

God has blessed them with different talents. Yes. I also think too, context matters so much.

Right. So even in those conversations you’re having with someone where like you said, they’re with their spouse, they’re saying ime or whatever, that’s one context and it might depend on whether you’re at their place of work. Oh, sure, right.

Yeah. Or you’re in the home and talking about raising kids. Right.

Those contexts really do matter. So in the case of the work, both of them are there but it’s primarily conversation about work. I would say it would make sense for those conversations to veer towards I and me based on whatever the topic is right.

And then in the home, you would hope to hear more we, she and that kind of thing. Well, and I think there’s something to be said in a work environment where I may not want to speak for someone else. Yeah.

Even in the context of this podcast, sometimes we might use we if I know there’s an agreement or we’ve had this conversation, so then I feel comfortable. But if we’re talking about a polarized dynamic and I’m not sure you’re in agreement with me or you’re not where I am, I’m going to tend to use this is my opinion, this is how I see it. So again, all those context matters.

I just was adding some caveats to if you hear someone saying I and that’s a spouse next to them. Yeah, but no, I think that I love what you’re saying about that flag because I think my I don’t know, I’ve definitely been on a journey my whole life, and there’s certainly been times where I really wanted the conversations to be about I and me. But here’s interesting.

I don’t know where I fit, you know, how that you have sibling kind of hierarchy and kind of the different paradigms of each sibling. Birth order. Birth order, yes, exactly.

Those paradigms. Me and my sister are very close in age, 13 months. She’s definitely older, but I’ve definitely been told many times I exhibit some older sibling characteristics.

I’ve definitely been told I exhibit some younger kids characteristics. Younger child. So it’s very interesting in terms of the approval thing and kind of that whole, like, I don’t fall into the jewel or the mia, so either of my daughters, I don’t fall into the I want all the attention and here I am, I’m going to make sure I get it kind of spectrum.

I also don’t fall in the jewel perspective. Like, please don’t put that spotlight on me. I’m right in between them.

I’m like my oldest, I want the spotlight, but I don’t want to have to tell you I want it. Sure. I want you to give it to me.

Yes. So what that translates to in my life is just work, just trying to show my worth. And a good friend of mine called it the performance treadmill.

Sure. Earn the spotlight. Exactly.

I want the spotlight to have to go on to me without me saying, here I am, and doing all this stuff that kind of grab the spotlight or grab the microphone. Like, I don’t want to do that. I want someone to say, I want you to have the microphone or let me put that spotlight on him.

That’s always been kind of my mode of operation, my mo. Sure. Which just means a lot of work, you know what I mean? I look at my daughter and it’s so effortless for her to get attention because she’ll just ask for it, you know what I mean? She’ll just claim.

It, she’ll just show up and start singing when no one’s singing. And it’s just like, Why are you doing this? Well, because she wants attention. And I’m just like people like your brother and my oldest daughter make me very uncomfortable.

And I realized a long time ago, like teenage years, it was jealousy. That’s why I’m uncomfortable, because they can effortlessly get the attention I want to work that I have to get through a lot of work, and I feel like I deserve the attention where they just stole it. Does that make sense? Yeah, that’s how you see it.

That would lead to a lot of jealousy at times. Oh, yeah. Jealousy, resentment, a lot of those things.

Which is why I talk about resentment a lot. Celebrate recovery. That’s something that I’ve always dealt with in my life.

I think that’s one part of that right. Is that approval stuff. And back to resentment and pride, that can also come from someone criticizing me.

Sure. Right. It’s like that resentment would come from that because approval is so important to me, to the point where I’d start looking at them.

Well, you kind of that defensiveness. I have a very interesting relationship with humility and pride. No, that’s fair enough.

Right in the middle, and it confuses even me. And I think that’s where I think about it, as you brought up a great point, because I think so often that resentment can be established between siblings. Sure.

You follow me where so often we’ll say as a parent, we’d say, I love you both, I just love you differently. And I think so often that difference can come across or can become resentment over time because I’m viewing you as being better, or you got more attention, you have more of this or you have more of that. And that’s unfair.

And my ability to see no, I just have some different. And in all honesty, my different is just as good unless I see your different is better. Does that make sense? Yeah, I’m seeing what you have.

You have more of this thing. I only got this much of it, and that’s unfair. Yeah.

That really gets into my passion topic of the stick, because I wish more and more siblings could understand the stick concept. You got less of a dose of that thing, which in turn means you have more of this other thing, and they go hand in hand. And if you get more of that, you lose what you have here, which is also incredibly valuable.

Yeah. And that’s where I’m at in that process. I appreciate the stick analogy to be able to recognize that the stick, if I may, is wrong.

If all I’m doing is focusing on one dynamic of it, that just means your stick is out of balance. Right. To where I’m focusing on one dynamic, that dynamic that says louder is better, and therefore you’re better, or whatever.

Fill that blank in with that we are actually comparing ourselves and I think that’s another part. So often I think, well from my perspective, okay, how I see it, I’m going to boil a lot of mental health down to supports and comparison, you follow me? So when I don’t have supports or sufficient supports healthy support. Healthy supports.

Sufficient healthy support. Yes. You can just define supports as being healthy.

That’s our clarification. When I don’t have those, I’m tending to live in isolation, which puts me at risk. And then the other dynamic of that is when I’m comparing myself to other people, then I’m automatically thinking I’m the only one that’s messed up.

They do that better. They don’t have that issue, you follow me? And therefore that comparison. They have more of the thing that I want, whether they do or not or I’m not able to see all of the other things that go along with that other side of the stick.

I’m just focusing on what they have and then that’s a terrible thing for me. I appreciate that analogy of the stick because it fits well and I’ll drag that analogy in anywhere I can. But often when I’m talking with someone with probably drag exactly, but balance it.

You don’t want to either end up too high. Sure, but no, I’ll often bring it into conversations with someone who struggles with beating themselves up or confidence issues or whatever it is, I’ll try and bring that in. Or someone who’s really proud of one aspect of themselves but maybe beat themselves up about other.

I’ll bring that in a lot to try and balance those things out. But all that being said, been thinking about kind of the antidote to pride or false humility. Yeah.

Can I interrupt there for just a moment? That’s another thing that sometimes and it’s interesting that when you say it sometimes when I hear self confidence, I don’t necessarily see that as a positive thing. Yeah, but yet it’s a word how we see it. Tell me more about your perspective just because I would like to understand that.

Well I think if we’re looking or I think we set ourselves up in a trap to a degree when it’s up to me to establish my confidence in me. So when I see self confidence, it’s like what I did. It’s the ability that I have to inflate myself.

And I think in some cases from my perspective, I think God confidence is how I would see healthy self confidence. I know who I am because God says who I am. I’m trying my best to avoid the comparison with other people recognizing that I have gifts and talents.

They may not be the spotlight ones that I typically may want, but yet they have meaning and they have purpose in the whole dynamic of life because I see them as God given. So it’s my opportunity, if you will, to basically take what I’ve been given in such a way by God and continue to hone that craft, continue to work on those abilities that I’ve been given versus just trying to muster it on my own based on the current desire to be that person versus just being the best version of myself who God has created me to be. So like you say that’s just a little yeah.

No, that’s good. Caveat. That’s how you see it.

That’s how I see it. I want to share how I see it. Yeah, go right ahead.

So when I think self confidence, it goes way back to some root things or some, like, early memory things. Sure. Probably both of ours do.

Yeah, absolutely. Sorry, I wasn’t trying to say yours does. No, I’m just but what I think about is two sports things.

The first is being a batter. Okay. I remember playing baseball, little leagues, terrified to bat.

Wow. Because I knew I was going to mess it up. I was going to strike out, I was going to look stupid.

Okay. The second one is free throws. Okay.

Because in that moment, the entire room is looking at you, and you have to perform. Sure. And for me, growing up, I looked at people who didn’t have that fear, and I said, I want that.

I want that self confidence that says, I’ve hit this many times, I’m going to hit it again. Wow. I’ve knocked down free throws 90% of the time.

I get these in, there’s no reason nine out of ten times, I’m not going to do it. It’s just another one. It’s just another one.

Yeah, exactly. Self confidence is and as I’ve grown older, obviously, I recognize it’s not always innate talent. They may have sat in their backyard shooting free throws 1 million times, and now they have that confidence in their self that they’re going to hit that million thin one.

And to me, I think bringing God into it is important from a broad perspective, but right in the moment, you just go, you know what? I can do this. I’ve done it a million times, I can do it a million and one. Let’s do this.

Sure. And there’s that assurance. Right.

And same with hitting a baseball. Right. They’re both, to me, very similar in that perspective.

But growing up, it was this enigma, this magic superpower. People had to just have that innate confidence that says, I got this. I’m not worried about it.

In fact, I’m ready, I’m excited to have this opportunity. Bring it on. Yes, exactly that bring it on.

This. Yeah. So for me, that was always a desire to have that and very difficult for me to have.

In fact, I would say I can’t remember having that feeling except in academics. Wow. Growing up wasn’t until I started maybe 20, where I started to actually what’s funny is I played basketball in high school, mediocre at best, just not very good.

I mean, I felt like I was good, but it just never showed up in the scores. Right. As soon as I graduated, the pressure was off.

We played pickup ball my whole we play every week in high school. As soon as I graduated, I was amazing. Wow.

Remembering. But as far as you were concerned or you actually heard it from other people, I would say objectively I did really well. Okay.

As far as feeling amazing, I think the contrast for me was probably what made me feel like I was amazing. Okay. But I could hit just about any shot I wanted to and just all kinds of things.

And it was because I now had self confidence that wasn’t undermined by the pressure of having to be all that sure. And I just remember that moment. I’m like, I am good at this stupid sport and of course it’s too late now because I can’t win.

Exactly. Yes. And so I would say that started some of the recognition that maybe I had, some of the stuff I didn’t think I had as it just started to come out when there wasn’t as much pressure.

So that’s always been a thing back and forth thing. For me, doing music in the very beginning was terrifying for the same reasons as being at bat or at the free throw line. Everyone’s looking at you, but that’s what you wanted.

No. Oh, not that. Oh, no.

So let me clarify. What I wanted is to have that confidence and then everyone looking at me, okay. Because I was going to perform and do well.

You want when you could perform? I wanted both. I wanted to be able to perform well in the spotlight. Sure.

I wanted the spot. I wanted to be able to perform well, but I didn’t believe I could perform well, so I avoided the spotlight. Sure could if I didn’t feel that confidence, which is often.

So music for me was a huge stretch. And the reason I even went that route is because I love music so much and I just desperately wanted it. It was a desire of my heart.

Prayed a lot about it, all kinds of stuff. The first few times I played and or especially sing, I was terrified. And I would say I messed up playing indoor singing.

What’s nice is I kind of really honed a lot of my chops at Celebrate Recovery. So in the early days, it was just Megan and I a lot of times in a room of like 14 people or whatever. Well, it’s funny you say that because I can remember when you first started singing at Generations on stage, and I can remember how your voice would crack and every single time that pressure would creep in my head and how it would cause me to mess up just like the free throws.

And that’s the thing, I was never good at free throws. I was never good at batting. Same thing.

And it’s been a long time coming, like a lot of work. Basically the free throws in the backyard to get to the point where I’m not worried now when I get up there to sing and play, I’m not worried. Sure, I might mess up, but it doesn’t even matter at this point where before it’s been such a transition from it really matters if I mess up, I can’t mess up and then I do to I’ve messed up before, it’s not the worst, but I really hope I don’t.

And then maybe I do, maybe I don’t, but it’s like not the end of the world and kind of that vacillation over time to the point where now it’s like I might mess up, probably won’t, it’s okay, you know what I mean? Because even if I mess up, people are okay with it and we just move on and no one’s going to remember that later. Sure, the people mess up and I forget about, but that comes from reps and that’s that self confidence thing that I now have in that area that I’m so thankful for. That’s just one example.

So long story short, self confidence has always been a desperate desire of mine. So that’s kind of how I see it. Right.

That’s the perspective I come at it from is like that’s a laudable thing. Of course I see where in some cases it also leaked into arrogance. Right.

Where it’s like, well, they hit their free throws, but man, I don’t want to be around them most of the time, you know what I mean? Sure. But for me, I would take that trade off if I could. Yeah.

Growing up, like in those formative years, I’d rather be a jerk and hit every pitch I got you, but that wasn’t an option. Yeah. Did you even like playing in the field? No, same thing.

Same thing. Okay. If the balls hit you, every eye in the whole place is on you and I would drop them.

I hated baseball. I guess so. And I played it a couple of years thinking, well, I’ll get better and then it’ll be fun.

And I never got better and it was never fun. And then softball, we played that a little bit in high school and then I’ve been in a couple of church leagues, I get triggered. Wow.

So it’s like, I know I can catch a ball, I know I can hit, it’s not a big deal. But I just feel all that fear, that trigger. I’m just like, no, softball is not for me.

I don’t play softball. Wow. And it just comes down to that.

And the minute I whiff pitch in softball, all those feelings come. It’s just like, no. Wow.

So I like team sports where it’s like you have to act fast, you don’t have time to think like frisbee. Exactly. It’s not like you’re being teed up and all eyes are on you.

Are you going to catch it even in Frisbee, throw it, whatever. It’s in the moment, right? Yeah. I don’t know, but it’s different than a baby.

Even if you drop it, even if you don’t make it, it’s already going in the other direction. And nobody’s well, we’re typically saying something, but yeah, it’s not like no announcement. But also, my confidence is a lot better now, so I don’t even know if some of that stuff would sure.

And since these sports are different, I don’t think they necessarily get triggered into some of those things. Does that make sense? Yeah, it’s funny to think for letting me share all this. Yeah, it’s funny to think about you playing Frisbee, you and Megan, if I may.

And now Joseph is of age, looking back at you, thinking about, okay, how performance anxiety comes into play and are we magnifying that or are we reducing it? That performance anxiety type thing. I’m glad you bring that up, because I’ve talked about this in the past many times, how I tend to be corrective with my kids, because it’s the same thing with my dad. He wanted me to be better.

I want them to be better. Sure. For his own sake.

I love Joseph, and so I wanted to be the best darn Frisbee player there. And so I’ll be like, hey, when that happens. And it’s just really hard to stop that.

And then in order to try really hard to compliment them a lot and just build them up. Because the funny part of it is, last night, even I don’t know whether you heard the banter from the other end of the field, we could see you doing that with Joseph and that song, this Is How We Do It, it was kind of going through my mind because that’s what you were describing. It was fun to watch, and like you say, it’s a great opportunity.

He got an amazing throw from someone, and it was basically going out of bounds. So he ran out of bounds to get it. If he would have waited, it probably was going to flow in bounds.

He could have stayed in. So that was my comment. Like, hey, sometimes you can wait for whatever.

If it’s going way out of bounds, it’s fun to go catch it, but you could also just see if it’s going to come back. That was kind of the conversation. And I would say the next five throws, he kind of started to learn the toe drag and different things like that.

It was really fun to watch, no doubt. And I was very proud of him. I told him many times, but that’s an example of, like, could I just let it slide and say, hey, you caught that, that was cool, or whatever.

But would he have learned the other part if you hadn’t addressed it? Probably. Maybe. I don’t know.

He’s a smart kid. But that’s the thing I’m always battling, right, is like, that but yeah, as far as that confidence and those things, I’m always thinking, like, looking at his face and if I see him have that disappointed look or whatever, I’m like, Crap, I messed up. You know what I mean? Because it happens.

Sure. And then I just try and balance it out, but I don’t know how I’m doing, and I don’t know how he’s going to end up, but I sure am trying. No, but it’s fun.

It’s really fun to have him out there and just to see him perform. Well, he’s good, right? He’s good. I’m his dad, so I think he’s amazing.

He’s good. No doubt about it. Yeah.

He had some great catches. He did. Yeah.

Anyway, it’s a fun time. Very proud of him. Yes, rightfully.

So what did we decide? Can we be proud of our children? That’s the question. Mark, what’s your take after all this? I think we have the ability to look at our children and be able to recognize they have God given talents and abilities, and when they’re exhibiting those, I don’t think there’s any issue in acknowledging that. To be able to say, nice job, and yet I want to recognize at that point, it’s not so much that they make me proud you follow me? That I’m proud of you as much as it is.

They feel that on their own for doing and excelling in ways that only they can. That’s kind of how I look at it. I apologize.

It probably sounds a little bit nebulous. Yeah. Because I think there’s more to it at times and being able to communicate that it’s not about me being proud of you.

It’s about your ability to say, yeah, I have some talents and it’s my job to use them well. Even if nobody’s watching that audience of one type dynamic. I got a specific scenario that I’m trying to pin you down, so I’m going to try and pin you.

Let’s say I never wrestled, I never liked wrestling, so maybe it’s something well, we’re doing this. Yeah, I’m fine with it. One of your kids is struggling with the thing.

I’m trying to think, I’m not going to come up with things. Well, you can fill in the blanks, and you’ve watched them flounder a couple of times, and so you say, I have some pointers for you. Here are some things you could try.

And you suggest those things, and they go out and they knock it out of the park, they kill it. Like, your advice was exactly what they needed. How do you handle that feeling that goes yes.

What is that to you? Is that pride? Is that do you not have that? Help me understand Mark’s picture of that. Because to me, that’s that pride of like, yes, we did this together. I did my part as a father, you did your part as a kid.

This output, it’s amazing. It just feels great. I’m thinking about it and I think our scenario is going to be different.

He’s sliding out again. I cannot pin this guy. I guess I’m not good at wrestling either.

Mark, I’m squirmy. He is squirmy. But I’m thinking about it in that context of them learning it.

Okay. Are they going to learn it with or without me? Type dynamic. You follow me.

And I think sometimes as a parent, it can be more important that I feel the way I do than my child feels the way they do. That’s the part that I would wrestle with. I feel good about what I taught you and that’s dangerous because that changed everything.

You follow me and I guess my perspective is and I see this, I’ll say, I see this even with my clients. I’ll have a kid that comes into my office, I’ll talk with them, and yet there’s always that part in the back of my mind that says, okay, this is a stage. This is a life cycle stage.

Now when we get on the other side of that stage, will I get accolades? Will I get compliments for what I did in my office? Quite possibly. But at the same time, when I hear that from that parent, it’s not so much what I did. I just worked with a child through a stage and they got to the other side of that stage and they did exactly what they were designed to do based on that developmental curve, that’s age appropriate.

And that’s how I’m going to see it to the point that I’m like. If you just take Mark out of the equation, everyone Mark and Lizzie would be just as amazing. Those cussed clients of yours, they would have just gone through their stage and been healthy.

Just take Mark out. God. Because he’s useless down here.

He’s got nothing to offer here. Well, I have things to offer, okay. And I’m willing to use them.

But yeah, I guess I’m just mindful of my role. It’s impressive, your skill set there. Wow.

Squeezing, sneaking, out of credit. First time I wrestled was Ryan Schrader. He picked me up, threw me down on the mat and dislocated my shoulder.

So it’s when I’ve been good at getting out of those sticky situations ever since. Yeah, I’ve always been wiry and scrawny. So you’ve never had that scenario I just described.

This is another dynamic. Okay. This is part of how I see it.

I loved coaching John’s soccer. Okay. Early on, great example.

Okay. And I will say that I got to a point where I needed to step away. Sure.

Because I didn’t know everything I need I wanted John to know regarding his ability to play soccer. Now, I’m going to say that probably some of my in John’s soccer career, probably some of my most proud moments, if I may, regarding him were watching him play high school ball. He could just drive a ball.

I mean, I can still to where they would have him take goal kicks because he just could drive it that hard. But I’m going to recognize I played soccer with him one time, like, a couple of months ago, and I can attest yeah. I got to the point where it’s not fun playing with John anymore.

I don’t want to try and stop it. You follow me? As a father, that hurts too much to get in the way. But I’ll also recognize that that wasn’t as much about my ability as his coach as, like you said, it’s the net in the backyard that’s still there to this day that took those 10,000 shots from.

And it’s even the backyard light that’s still kind of hanging off the house where it got hit by a soccer ball coming the other direction. And it’s the window that broke because the ball was getting kicked back towards the house. All of that really played into that ability that he had, a God given ability more so than anything that I gave him, from my perspective.

Yes, I agree. So that’s how I see and you take Mark out of the equation and you replace it with a father who doesn’t appreciate broken windows. You know what I mean? Okay.

Yeah. No, we’re not doing that in the backyard. You find a park to go do that in, right? Yeah, well, we did the park and the backyard, that kind of thing too good at this.

I’m hearing where you’re coming from, that my role mattered as John’s father. Yeah. And I’m just wondering if you ever acknowledge that in the moment of, like, that.

You know what I mean? Like a moment of, I’m glad I contributed that way. I see how it impacted him that way, and I’m thankful for that. I see it as a stick.

Okay. Because I’ll recognize, okay, you can’t use the stick against me. Why not? This is the other part.

I’ll recognize that probably John, and here again, Lizzie has her talents. She’s just smarter than I am, and that’s because of her mother. I’ll say that right on here.

But I would dare say John has some of the talents he has or his desire to work with his hands. I would see that as something that I probably instilled in him. Okay.

Now I’m going to see that as a stick in the context that I gave him, that he probably learned that from. I modeled that for him. And yet I’m also going to recognize that, shucks, I didn’t model the academics as well as I could to where there may come a day.

Why are you such a dummy? I hope he listens this. He tells me that John is super smart. I’m just going to go on the record.

And I recognize that based on his mom’s DNA and some contributions I’ve made, but being able to recognize I see it as a stick because sometimes I’m willing to recognize shocks. Maybe I wish he would have got his and he’s in the military and he’s getting that education. I’m not concerned, but I see it in that stick dynamic that says shocks.

Maybe I implemented a little too much of that and not enough of that. But at the same time, he’s going to be by God’s grace, he’s going to be just fine with or without my influence at this point. Yeah.

So stick thing, I’m going to take the stick back and say part of the encouragement with the stick is to accept and acknowledge the good parts in balance to the bad because that’s part of what makes it a healthy balance of holding that stick. Say that bad comes with the good is the part that balances it out so it’s not always dragging on the ground. And the bad the bad is what balances out and make sure the good isn’t dragging on the ground in the sense of pride and all those things.

So I do think there is an important part of the stick which is acknowledgment of the good. Sure. Yeah.

An awareness of the things that I might not see as beneficial. And yet at the same time I have other gifts that can be honed I mean can be beneficial. Well, no, yeah.

That can be developed even further than what I might think is good right now. Yeah. Well, the thing about the stick is both can be developed.

Sure. If you’re aware and you see the stick, you go, oh yeah, I’m really good at this, I’m going to keep working on that, creating greater balance. And then the bad, you say, I’m going to work on not doing the bad.

That would be my encouragement with the stick. But we’re not talking about the stick. I think I was going to say this like 42 minutes ago.

I think the antidote to the pride humility conversation is gratitude. I believe that is the thing that can dissolve the false humility or the pride, like ends of that continuum. And I think gratitude is a great antidote.

Sure. What are your thoughts? No, I’d agree with that. And I think that’s the ability, when we’re able to step back from what we did as parents or I did as an individual and say, wow, God, you did far more than I could ask or imagine, even with me.

I think that’s where gratitude comes into play. And I’m just grateful for the abilities that I have and I’m not concerned about comparing myself to other people. Yeah.

And even it can help you in responses to flattery or whatever. Oh, sure, right. Yeah.

Because when you think pride, you think, what’s the antidote humility? I have to be humble. The problem is you’ve heard this, probably everyone’s heard this. If you’re trying to be humble, then you’re not.

Right. That’s not how if humility have humility, you don’t. Yeah, exactly.

And trying to be humble is kind of a false. Effort. And the same thing if you’re doing that false humility thing.

And always, whatever the antidote isn’t, take more pride. Again, I think the antidote to both is gratitude. I really think that’s true.

And it can allow you to accept compliments better. It can allow you to handle those moments where you be super prideful better. I think it can help in both of those things.

Yeah. No, I appreciate you sharing, Justin. Yeah, you, too.

That’s fun. A good little bit of insight into new Justin, older Justin, early Justin. Yeah.

Little bit of mark too. You know, he likes to wrestle. There you go.

He doesn’t like compliments. So there you have it. That’s how I see it.