Justin:

We gotta do this.

Mark:

Okay, well let’s do that. Let’s do it again if you want, I don’t mind. We got a button for that though. Come on the old

Justin:

Let’s see if I can remember.

Mark:

Lower right.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Nice. Actually it’s lower left. Oh wow, you even got the mixer on that. Nice job

Justin:

Way to fade in. Nice job.

Mark:

Way to fade in and give yourself a round of applause for that.

Justin:

You know I will. I’m a little slow though.

Mark:

That’s okay. He had to find the right corner on the the the button. That’s neat. Nice job. Nice job. That’s what those years of video games have done.

Justin:

That’s right. That’s true. And you know what, Mark? I’m proud of it.

Mark:

Well, good to hear. Good to hear. Yes, by all means. That is a great segue. Yeah. Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and

Justin:

Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization. through thoughtful conversations.

Mark:

Yeah. As we thi when we think of being proud when we think of pride. Is that a positive thing or is pride a negative thing?

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Oh nice. There’s some polarization there for you. So talk with me about that when you when you think of pride.

Justin:

You know

Mark:

being proud.

Justin:

There’s two two two things that come to mind probably for most listeners, me for sure. Okay. Um the I’m proud of you, the like Pride in your nation, like kind of that like

Mark:

Proud to be in America.

Justin:

Like hat off pride, you know, or like beaming pride or um you know like that’s my boy kind of pride.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um there’s

Mark:

Or that’s your girl.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

My child.

Justin:

That’s my child. Um you had to pick one in that con so I just

Mark:

Oh like you say I’m hearing where you’re coming from.

Justin:

Yeah. Uh and then the uh the flip side, right, which is kinda like prideful in and being you know, having yeah, a negative pride of like Not being willing to change or not being willing to admit when you’re wrong or um thinking you’re better than you are and so kind of more in that arrogant side of things. Sure.

Mark:

But even that even uh even in the the more positive dynamic when I think about Pride and I’m probably I’m gonna I’m gonna probably be erroring on the side of I’m not sure pride’s that great of thing as we establish it to be.

Justin:

Okay This is what we’re about. Yeah, exactly.

Mark:

And I and I think about it in that context of even my child. Okay. My nation.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, I think about it in that context of that use of the word my. And so often my tendency is to think, okay, we did this. I did this and I kind of make it about

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

God had nothing to do with it. A bunch of guys, you know, got together and they signed the Declaration of Independence and they fought for our freedom and we have this nation apart from God. Type.

Justin:

That’s the core is what you’re saying. That’s not what we would say.

Mark:

No, we wouldn’t necessarily say that, but I think in that context of my , that’s that’s where it kinda it has a A bitter flavor. A bitter flavor for me when I hear that and you know there’s no clarification, I guess. Mm-hmm. That, you know, where we’re able to recognize, okay, all of these factors wouldn’t have come together or wouldn’t have even been allowed if there hadn’t been this you know, from my perspective, this God that orchestrated these, you know, the timing of storms and rain events and, you know, just all those things, th those d I I I would say those miracles. you know, that basically formed our nation.

Justin:

Yes. Agreed.

Mark:

And and that but That’s not to say that I’m not willing to hear somebody when they speak about what their child has done.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, that what you know, and it’s so yeah.

Justin:

I think there is an element of pride. that I I would argue isn’t bad. And I think that’s maybe

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Kind of where we’re going back and forth a little bit. But when you think of being part of a representative, you know, like a r p uh uh being represented by a group. So I think of the United States in the Olympics. Right?

Mark:

Okay, sure.

Justin:

And you see them take the gold and you have this pride and it’s like they represent me and therefore I feel that that pride, right?

Mark:

Sure. Um

Justin:

And same with your child. It’s like they represent me and I am proud. And you know, like you said, it certainly it can become self-pride in the sense that you remove God and say. But I also think it’s okay to do that. I think. That that’s where we’re that’s the conversation. So that that’s my thought. Yeah The other thing I think about Paul saying I boast in my afflictions and he he talks about different things he’s a I could boast about my credentials

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Because I’ve done this, this is this he basically lists his credentials.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

He said, but instead I boast about the fact that I’m in prison for you or, you know, I’m my afflictions. Um, and he’s basically saying, I’m proud of that part of me.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know. So again, I’m I think there’s a an example of, you know, arguably the greatest apostle

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Come in. The door just uh opened on its own. A little bit creepy.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Was it Paul’s? The ghost of Paul? He’s got here the Claim his pride.

Mark:

It’s Memorial Day.

Justin:

It is it is the week of Memorial Day. So maybe we’re on uh veterans burial ground and we don’t know it.

Mark:

There you go. Alright.

Justin:

Anyway. So that’s that’s that’s kind of the ping to your pong.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Your turn.

Mark:

Yeah. No, and I and I guess and I think this is probably a little more of where I come back to, I see in that continuum when we think about pride, I think about it in the context of humility. You follow me, and I think you know humility is probably more the side that I would lean towards You know, being able to recognize and and I would say false humility is just as wrong as arrogant pride.

Justin:

Yeah. Which yeah, I would love to branch over there in a second. Okay. I don’t want to interrupt you. Yeah, yeah, no, no.

Mark:

But that’s that and I that’s probably in that continuum, that’s probably more so the side that I have to be mindful of.

Justin:

Gotcha.

Mark:

I’m not I was having a conversation. Oh, yeah, I was I was at a Um I it was interesting because when you talk when you meet people out in public, I think you get a little better sense of who you are in the public eye. You follow me?

Justin:

This is this is a perfect example of Mark’s humility. It’s deflection.

Mark:

Well, and that that that is a part, you know, because uh I happen to run into a person like it a uh estate sales, what it was, a neighbor

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

You know, and something about, you know, you know, she was introducing me, a neighbor was introducing me to another person and you know, and said, you know, he’s a nice guy type stuff. Yeah. You know.

Justin:

Probably a lot more and nice stuff. I

Mark:

I’ve I fell into my deflection and she called it out.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, she said, now don’t don’t be don’t be so, you know, humble. Yeah. You know, but it’s like Yeah, you know, and and I think we’ve talked about that, you know, in different podcasts, you know, that aspect of being able to take a compliment. And how we can tell. So yeah, that’s kind of if we’re gonna align on that continuum, yeah. That’s gonna be my tendency.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Yeah, yeah. Yes. Sneak, cheat.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

However you are, I’m gonna be more probably aligned on that side and you know And someone who might and and like you said about Paul, you know, and and even like I’ll you know, use Jimmy Evans, you know, he’ll he has the one session where he’s talking about raising great kids and he’ll come right out and say, you know When we, you know, were raising our kids, we said we want our children to be just like us. You know, and I can appreciate that in that sense that I’m setting a standard like Paul that If you follow this, this is this is how you need to live. And I can get behind that in some ways. Yeah. And yet I’m always gonna say, uh there’s a better there’s a better

Justin:

option. I want you to slingshot past me.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Right, like Yeah. Take what I’ve built or where I’m at and go past that. Like you crawl on my back.

Mark:

Or you know, here’s here’s Jesus.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And you know, he’s faultless.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

You know, because as a parent, I’m gonna recognize

Justin:

Let’s both go towards that.

Mark:

Yes together.

Justin:

Exactly. That’s good.

Mark:

And I’m and I’m gonna do what I can to be as good of model Of who Jesus is.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And yet I’m gonna recognize, and I know this is gonna you know strike a chord for you, I’m gonna recognize I don’t have sufficient strength to do it all. And and sometimes and I and here’s here’s where it gets a little fuzzy for me, you know, or difficult, because I think pride in that middle ground, you know, has the ability to Allow subtle lies to slip through. I think of Adam and Eve, you know And and that aspect, I think pride c can make us a little more susceptible. Well, and I think in some ways, even in our culture, you know, we can think about Adam and Eve and say, well, what did they know? Come on now. You know, they probably weren’t that smart. We’re much smarter now. You know, we’ve evolved. We’re smarter. We have technology. So we’re less susceptible. to those things that Adam and Eve were. And yeah, I believe in a lot of cases it’s a very s you know, Satan still works in the same ways with those subtle lies that did God really say that Mm-hmm. And I think the more the Go ahead.

Justin:

Not only builds um or not only discredits some truth, but also just to tie back into I think maybe what you were saying, will do well basically flatter us like and and build up our own version of ourselves to where now we can justify behavior that doesn’t align with the authority because Yeah, but I’m ultimately s something bigger, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

And I think, and I’ll be honest, I think that’s the part that makes me uncomfortable when I feel flattered.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because I don’t want it to puff me up in such a way that I become, yeah, I’m all that. When in reality I know I’m not all that.

Justin:

Yeah. And it’s so interesting because first of all, I I I appreciate how you are and I appreciate who you are. He’s like stop here he goes again. Um that being said, as a balance, I definitely think Like you could take compliments better.

Mark:

Yeah. I I I I can

Justin:

I can in my my minds I’m in my mind’s I hear responses from you that would make me happier, right?

Mark:

Is something that I try to work on. Yeah. Because I don’t want to minimize the gratitude other people may feel.

Justin:

Yeah, and also I think it is important. Uh, okay, so I’m coming from a background where I struggled with um self-esteem and self-confidence growing up. So I’ve had to learn to have both of those things

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So self-esteem being uh appreciation for self, essentially.

Mark:

I hear ya.

Justin:

Um, appreciation for what I have to offer. Uh and being comfortable with that and then. Talents and abilities. Yeah. And then self competence being a recognition that yeah, based on w the things that I have and that I’m good at, I can therefore proceed in that. Right. And and feel confident in that and for me those are I came from a deficit, I had to work into those things. And so, um kinda that the the the way that you’re you’re you’re basically saying that you are and and that makes you tend to slide towards that. I think maybe co correct me if I’m wrong, I’d be interested, like kinda comes from the other perspective maybe of like Pride in home, pride in family, and just like a really strong core of pride where you grew up and how how you felt about things.

Mark:

Uh-huh.

Justin:

I’m cu I I would love to know your thoughts. And let m maybe you came from the exact same

Mark:

Well, you mean how I grew up? That’s what you’re asking me?

Justin:

Kind of how you grew up and just kind of how you felt internally about yourself growing up as a result of the environment.

Mark:

Sure. And I and I think, you know, um Huh. It’s funny ’cause I was honestly thinking about this, you know, just a moment ago in that process of, you know, my family system. And I recognize, you know, and I probably shared a little more in my testimony type stuff, you know, that that dynamic that I grew up where I had an older brother who was definitely desired to be seen. You know. Yeah. Not not a not in a arrogance.

Justin:

Immediately all the treacherous pieces kind of fell in mind for me. I kind of I’m I’m following you. But care but

Mark:

Yeah, from that dynamic, you know, he was just louder, you know, more energetic, more voistress, you know. You just knew he was in the room type thing You know, and and that’s and that’s great. I love my brother, that kind of thing. But I think that affected my, you know, it’s like uh people say, well, we grew up in the same household. No, we didn’t really grow up in the same household because the minute I came along, the dynamic changed. So yes, while we existed in the same building, that household changed is when another child is born

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because certain characteristics aren’t available. You follow me? If my older brother had those tendencies.

Justin:

He had them on lock.

Mark:

Yeah. There’s there’s no need for me to go there.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So I think, you know, that was where I adopted a more, you know, subtle way of you know, not necessarily even trying to be noticed. Mm-hmm. You know, a more subversive or covert way of staying below the radar.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That kind of thing. Okay.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Like almost like get that spotlight off of me.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, very much so. And it’s so yeah, it’s like

Justin:

my oldest daughter is, I’ll take that, thank you.

Mark:

Exactly. And that’s that’s how you know

Justin:

that’s how you see it and I see it. Through my daughter.

Mark:

Exactly. And so that’s where that comes from for me, because I just don’t have a desire. Now if somebody asks me to do something, you know, based on my role or abilities or, you know, I’m say I’m willing to say, yeah, if you’re if you want me to speak to that, I’m happy to speak to that. But at the same time

Justin:

Yeah. So Going back to that alley of uh false humility, okay. That side jaunt.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Um what’s interesting about that is If you again on that end of the spectrum it can still become about me.

Mark:

Oh, sure. It’s a false form of pride, in my opinion.

Justin:

Yeah. It’s not it’s a It’s yeah, it’s a form of pride. Yeah, it’s actually true humility, which is a form of pride, yeah.

Mark:

I’d agree. Um

Justin:

sorry

Mark:

No, no, it’s a great clarification. It’s basically saying I want you to tell me how good I am.

Justin:

Yeah, exactly. Because you didn’t say that

Mark:

loud enough.

Justin:

Right. Or but even in the attempt to shut it down. is because is is an at can be an attempt to demonstrate the type of person the type of virtues you have.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? It can it can signal that like Does that make sense? Because we consider someone who th you know, oh no, it’s that’s not me or whatever. If that’s how you are, you consider that to be better, right? Sure. And therefore you’re signaling this is better And again, I’m not saying that’s what Mark does. I’m saying like that’s where the f the false humility can come in because now you feel humble. You feel virtuous.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But you’re still uh there there’s that term right, virtue signaling.

Mark:

Oh sure.

Justin:

Like I’m virtue signal I’m saying like I’m a man you know, I’m I have this these virtues that can’t allow your silly little flatters in my virtuous heart. You know what I mean? Like to take it all the way to that extreme or whatever. And so I think that’s part of it too is like how do we how do we handle those conversations in a way that still doesn’t make it about me.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right? And that’s the hard part. Like I r I really think that’s hard. I like and I I think, you know I’ve talked to my daughter you know, my kids a few times about how to handle compliments and you know, one of the things we say and the what you kinda alluded to earlier is just to say thank you.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Thank you.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Like that’s a nice thing and if you if you say it in a genuine way, then

Mark:

Yeah. Tone makes a lot of difference there.

Justin:

It does, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like well, thanks. Yeah. Yeah, like of course. You know, that could Anyway, I think because again if you say, oh no, don’t I don’t want to hear that or whatever, again, I I do think it’s very much virtue signaling. Even when you don’t mean it to be, it can have that flavor to it. Also, the context of the hearer matters, right? So some some people will hear that and go, oh, he’s such a sweet. humble person or or she’s such so sweet and humble. Oh, you know, and other people may not. They’d be like, She can’t take a compliment or uh remind me never to compliment her again. I don’t know. I don’t know Uh

Mark:

so in that context for you of pride, what what would be a comment, what would be a signal? that would kind of raise a red flag for you with a person or even something that you might say if you were to stop and think about. What what would be Because I’m uh here again, I’m just putting the conversation out there in that continuum. What would be uh uh something that you would say, okay, that might be a little too far. What signals would you be looking for? Flags would you

Justin:

Whew, good question. I I pretty much don’t look at anything on that end of the spectrum badly.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

I I accept the virtue signal. I think my I’m like you, Mark, in the sense that to me that end is better. And like that’s that’s kind of what I

Mark:

you say that end.

Justin:

Uh that end of the continuum of like humility and deflection. Like that’s I’m I’m not as far you know on that end as you. And I would love, you know, to hear your perspective on on uh on me or whatever. But the but For me, the further toward that continuum, the better of a person you are. It’s it’s kind of my natural bent. And I think you and I are similar in that way of like Just be humble or deflect. It’s you know, that kind of thing. And so when I talk about the virtue signal, all those things, that’s like kind of uh uh anti-me. Like I’m and does that make sense?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So that being said, there’s not signals where someone says that where I’m like, you generally I’m like, oh that’s nice. You know, whatever. Okay. Um I and I would I I don’t know that There’s very many people that would see that as gross, but I think there’s probably a few, you know, out there, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um I do think that has a better flavor than

Mark:

the humility end of the spectrum.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s more palatable and

Mark:

Okay. Well then start there. If I may.

Justin:

Start where explain.

Mark:

What what would be what would be an indicator that you’ve gone too far in that direction then?

Justin:

Well, for me personally, it’s about like you already teased about like Tell me more. No, don’t stop.

Mark:

I hear ya.

Justin:

But do you know that idea of like putting yourself down so much that it’s like they have to like you’re like forcing them to recover from your overstatement.

Mark:

Sure. And

Justin:

like you’re kind of clarifying, seeing how serious they really are about their compliment and basically fishing, right? Like I think there’s a lot of forms of humility that ends up just being fishing in again very much false humility because it’s like oh I’m just humble but you know it’s false in the sense that I I really want to know more and I I really I want to see how serious you are about that compliment. I want to hear more about it. I want you to you know

Mark:

Yeah

Justin:

or even s uh compliment my virtues on top of the thing you’re complimenting. You know what I mean?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So that to me is where it can be gross and I definitely know I’ve definitely seen that in my life, right? Like where that’s happened is it’s very gross. I think I’ve done it, right? I think I’ve done it. Sure. Certainly.

Mark:

And that’s why I’m saying that part, you know, what would be a red flag even in your life, let alone somebody else.

Justin:

I’m waiting for a response to my response.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I think that that would be the signal. You know? Yeah. And so that’s Again, personally w where I’ve I’ve really had because you know I’ve talked about this a lot in the past, approval addiction, people pleasing, that kind of thing. So I’m always looking for compliments. I mean I I I never want them to stop. I would like the stream to just continue, you know, just just intravenously.

Mark:

A stream is nice, but a river’s even better.

Justin:

Yeah, so uh comments on our post please and uh we’d love to hear from you. Uh I mean and that’s no joke. Um that’s that’s like a like I call it addiction, but it’s like a deep-seated like quote unquote need that I have um that I have to continually work on culling and just being like healthy about it, right? Yeah. And I think it has a lot to do with upbringing and just certain you know. Uh it’s kinda like um the idea of a you know, a stray pet that didn’t get much food and so it’s like every time you feed ’em, they just scarf it down as fast as possible because they don’t know when the next meal’s coming and it’s they’re that way the rest of their life even though they’re in a healthy home now I think in some ways it’s similar to that. Sure. Okay.

Mark:

That’s a good analogy.

Justin:

Thank you. Yeah. Thank you.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um tell me more about that. No, Mark. It was terrible analogy. Terrible No.

Mark:

No, but I could see that. Yeah.

Justin:

I’m trying out all the sizes of this uh response.

Mark:

I c you’re you’re you’re uh using your lever to shift yourself on that continuous.

Justin:

Exactly.

Mark:

So that being said, how would you know you’ve gone too far in the pride area? Mm. As you shift, as you have that ability.

Justin:

Yeah, let me think about it. That’s good.

Mark:

That’s good thinking.

Justin:

I think my eyes are closed. See you see my eyes rolling back in my mind. Um I think I don’t know how much it surfaces out of me. I mean I I I’m kind of of the mind that uh you know, out of the heart the mouth speaks. I I think the way you think f s leaks out of you no matter what. But as far as in the moment that actual I don’t know that I s signal it super clearly to someone listening unless you really knew me, but I think for me it’s the response in my heart is, um, yeah. Or like I know or like you don’t know the half of it. You know what I mean? Like almost like uh I don’t know, like almost bitter that you’re saying it because it’s like You don’t even know. I don’t know.

Mark:

Because you already know?

Justin:

And it’s almost like your compliment is petty

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Does that make sense?

Mark:

If you only knew how much I’d put into that, you would say more.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Like your compliment almost feels uh uh

Mark:

backhanded. It’s almost like an assault uh a

Justin:

front. Yes, yes, like uh offensive, yeah. Like Yeah. I would say that’s kind of my extreme on the other end. I gotcha. And again, I would I don’t think I would try and indicate that to you as there’s someone complimenting, I think it I would just be like, thank you, you know, but sure in my heart it I would be like yeah. So that would be the other end.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So I’ve experienced the gamut, I would say. Uh those things.

Mark:

And I appreciate your analogy, that use of the difference between the mind and the heart. I think, you know, those those those morsels kinda go to the to the heart, to the inner part of a man, you know, when we when we start thinking about, you know, that arrogance and that pride. It can kinda you know, yeah e easily kinda go to who we are and and like you’re saying it actually reveals our heart at times. And you know, it’s just and and I I’m thinking about it in the context of people we interact with do and I I think for me and I use the word right there pronouns are a huge as far as I’m concerned not in the context of definition so much But in the process of I and me when I’m listening to other people versus we and they in that context of inclusion. And it was interesting. I um happened to be Lizzie got me a book, um

Justin:

If you don’t know who Lizzie is, listen to the the brains at

Mark:

sure. Um Mark Batterson, he’s one of my uh go-to people as far as uh

Justin:

what else is he writ that that name is very familiar.

Mark:

In a Pit with a Lion on a Snowy Day, Chasing the Wild Goose.

Justin:

No.

Mark:

Um, those are his early works. He just he’s just written one uh more so recently. Um Please three like three words that change you know, the world please, sorry, and thanks. You know, that kind of thing. And it was interesting because uh the first one I think uh I think was uh please But he talked about um over in England, the prime minister’s, I believe was the prime minister’s mother. And she had she had back to back uh meetings with these heads of state, if you will, these influential leaders. And the one m individual, the fur from the first night, Her kind of her comment was that when I left the room, I thought he was the most clever man in all of Europe.

Justin:

The Prime Minister?

Mark:

The the this was this was the like

Justin:

Who’s saying what? About who

Mark:

the mother of the Prime Minister’s mother was stating that about the individual she had sat with that night. So the first night she sat with an individual and when that interaction was over, she left the room thinking that that man was the cleverest man in Europe.

Justin:

I’m caught up now. Thank you.

Mark:

No problem. So the next evening, the same woman, the Prime Minister’s mother, had sat down and had an interaction with another individual. And she said when I left the room that evening, I thought I was the cleverest person in Europe. You follow me? And and she, you know, he went on to state how that individu and it it it’s kinda interesting that you think about it. Well it’s interesting when I think about in the context of pride, he went on to say there’s two people that, you know, when they come into a room There’s there’s two reactions. One person comes in and says, I’m here.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That’s and it and you know, and that would be kind of where I described how my brother was more so. And

Justin:

my oldest daughter.

Mark:

Yeah, that kind of thing. And the other person says, There you are.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

You know, and it’s and that I think was the difference in that Primister, that part of am I self-focused and here I am? Or am I others focused and there you are.

Justin:

That’s so cool. I yeah, that’s good.

Mark:

And I think, you know, I I think that’s where I come back to, you know, the pronouns make such a difference. when I’m listening to people and in that process when I’m hearing when I’m hearing someone use I and me You know, even in the context of their, you know, being being there with a spouse. You know, being there with us, you know, interacting with their spouse and You know, and they’re still using that sense of I and me versus we and us, you know, that’s that’s a little That’s just one of my little flags that I’ll tend to

Justin:

And now every listeners ’cause they’re gonna be left

Mark:

Yeah. So feel free to call me out, you know. But yeah, in that context, I think that is a you know an important dynamic. And and and there you go. I mean that being said I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with your oldest daughter versus your youngest daughter.

Justin:

Or my brother, yeah. Back to the stick thing. So again, if you know what the stick is, we have the previous episode. No, but the stick thing of like there’s some benefits to my oldest daughter and your your brother. Sure. That clearly have played out in their life, I would I would definitely say my daughter. I don’t know her brother. Um and then obviously some weaknesses attached to those things. So It’s a it’s just a stick thing. But and same with you and Jewel, um and kind of your d deference or deflection. Very much a stick thing. Like I see values in both of my daughters the way they are and proud of them both

Mark:

There you go. Yes. Um God has blessed them with different talents. Yes. Yes.

Justin:

I also think too like um context matters so much, right? So you even in those conversations you’re having with someone where, like you said, they’re with their spouse They’re saying I and me or whatever. Um that’s that’s one context. It and it might depend on whether you’re um at their place of work.

Mark:

Oh sure.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah yeah.

Justin:

Um or you’re in the home and talking about raising kids, right? Those contexts really do matter. So in the case of the work, you’re the both of them are there, but you know, it’s primarily conversation about work. I I would say m it would make sense for th those conversations to veer towards I and me based on whatever the topic is, right? And then in the home it would you know, you would hope to hear more we Sure.

Mark:

Well and I think there’s something to be said in a work environment where I may not want to speak for someone else.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Like even like even in the context of the pot this podcast. You know, sometimes we might use we if I know there’s an agreement, you know, or we’ve had this conversation, you know, so then I feel comfortable. But if we’re talking about a polarized dynamic and I’m not sure you’re in agreement with me or you’re not where I am, I’m gonna tend to use this is my opinion, this is how I see it.

Justin:

So again, that all those contexts matter. So I I just was adding some caveats to if you hear someone saying I in a con where there’s a couple uh a spouse next to ’em.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Uh But yeah, no, I think that I I I love what you’re saying about that flag because I think my I don’t know, I’ve you know, I’ve definitely been on a journey my whole life and there’s certainly been times where I really wanted the conversations to be about I and me. You know, and but here’s what it’s interesting. I don’t I don’t know where I fit w like, you know how that you have uh sibling kind of Hierarchy, whatever, and kind of the different uh paradigms of each sibling.

Mark:

Birth order.

Justin:

Birth order. Yes, exactly. Those paradigms. Me and my sister are very close in age, thirteen months. She’s definitely older, but Um, I’ve definitely been told many times I exhibit some older sibling characteristics. I’ve but definitely been told I exhibit some younger kids uh characteristics. Uh younger childland. And uh so it’s very interesting in uh in terms of like the approval thing and kind of that whole like I don’t f fall into the jewel or the Mia. So my either of my daughters. I don’t fall into the I want all the attention in. Here I am. I’m gonna make sure I get it kind of spectrum. I also don’t fall in the jewel perspective of like please don’t put that spotlight on me. I’m like right in between them. I’m like My oldest and that I want this I want the spotlight. I got but I don’t want to have to tell you I want it.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So

Mark:

I want you to give it to me.

Justin:

Yes. So what that translates to in my life is just work. Just trying to show my worth in uh m what a good friend of mine called it the performance treadmill.

Mark:

Sure, earn the spotlight.

Justin:

Exactly. I want the spotlight to have to go on to me without me saying, here I am and like doing all this stuff. the the kind of grab the spotlight or grab the microphone like I don’t want to do that. I want someone to say, I want you to have the microphone or let me put that spotlight on him, you know. That’s that’s always been my m kind of my mode of operation, my M, you know?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Which just means a lot of work.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know what I mean? Yeah. I look at my daughter and it’s so effortless for her to get attention. ‘Cause she’ll just ask for it. You know what I mean? She’ll just claim it. Or you know, she’ll just show up and start singing when no one’s singing. You know, like and it’s just like Why are you doing this? Well, because she wants attention, you know, or whatever. And uh and I’m just like, people like your brother and my oldest daughter make me very uncomfortable.

Mark:

Huh.

Justin:

And I realized a long time ago, like teenage years, it was jealousy that made that’s why I’m uncomfortable because they can effortlessly get the attention I want to work. That I have to get through a lot of work. And I feel like I deserve the attention where they just stole it. Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um

Mark:

That’s how you see it.

Justin:

That’s how I yeah, that’s how I yeah. And so that

Mark:

‘s that would lead to a lot of jealousy at times.

Justin:

Oh yeah. Jealousy, resentment. Yeah. A lot of those things. Um, which is why, you know, I talk about resentment a lot at Celebrate Recovery. That’s something that always dealt with in my life. I think that’s one part of that, right, is that approval stuff. Um and g back to resentment um that and pride, that can also come from someone criticizing me

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? It’s like that resentment would come from that because approval is so important to me, you know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um to to the point where I’d start looking at them, well you ‘re you and you know, kind of that defensiveness and Um, but yeah. So yeah, th I have a very interesting relationship with humility and pride.

Mark:

No, that’s fair enough.

Justin:

Like right in the middle and it’s it’s uh confuses even me.

Mark:

Yeah, that’s where I and I think that’s where I think about it as you you brought up a great point because I think so often, you know, um that resentment can be establish between siblings.

Justin:

Sure.

Mark:

You follow me? Where where, you know, so often we’ll say, you know, as a parent, we’d say, you know, I just I love you both.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, I just love you differently. And I think so often that that difference can come across or can become resentment over time because I’m viewing you as being better or you got more attention you have more of this or you have more of that and that’s unfair.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And my ability to see, no, I just have some different and in all honesty, my different is just as good unless I see your different is better. Hmm. Does that make sense?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I’m seeing what you have, you have more of this thing. I only got this much of it.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

And that’s unfair.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. And I yeah. That that really gets into my passion topic topic of the stick. Because I wish more and more siblings could understand the stick concept. Like yes, you got less of a dose of that thing yep which in turn means you have more of this other thing yep and they go hand in hand and if you get more of that you lose what you have here which is also incredibly valuable, you know?

Mark:

Yeah. And that’s where I’m at in that process. I appreciate the stick analogy to be able to recognize that the stick if I may, is wrong if all I’m doing is focusing on one dynamic of it.

Justin:

That just means your stick is out of balance, right? Like you’re you’re holding up. Yeah, yeah.

Mark:

To where I’m focusing on one dynamic, that dynamic that says louder is better and therefore you’re better.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Or you know W whatever you want to fill that blank in with that we are actually comparing ourselves. And I think that’s another part. I th so often I think well I’ll From my perspective, okay.

Justin:

How you see

Mark:

how I see it. I’m gonna boil a lot of mental health down to supports and comparison. You follow me? So when I don’t have supports, uh or sus you know, sufficient supports.

Justin:

Healthy support.

Mark:

Healthy supports, sufficient healthy support.

Justin:

I guess you can just define supports as being healthy That’s right. That’s

Mark:

you know, that’s my you know, our clarification. When I don’t have those, I’m tending to live in isolation. Okay, which puts me at risk. And then the other the other dynamic of that is when I’m comparing myself to other people.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, then I’m automatically thinking I’m the only one that’s messed up. They do that better. They don’t have that issue.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me? Yeah. And therefore that comparison They have more of the thing that I want, whether they do or n or not. Or I’m not able to see all of the other things that you know, go along with that other side of the stick. I’m just focusing on what they have and then that’s a that’s a terrible thing for me. So you know, and I so I I appreciate that analogy of the stick because it fits w it fits well.

Justin:

Yeah, and I’ll I’ll drag that analogy in anywhere I can. But like often when I’m talking with someone with that comparison, don’t drag it there. Exactly. But balance it. You don’t want to either end up too high or those. But no, I’ll I’ll often bring it into conversations with someone who struggles with um beating themselves up or confidence issues or what whatever it is, I’ll I’ll try and bring that in. Or someone who’s like really proud of one aspect of themselves Um but maybe beat themselves up about other and I’ll I’ll bring that in a lot to just try and balance those things out. But Um, all that being said, been thinking about kind of the antidote to pride or false humility.

Mark:

Yeah. Can I can I uh interrupt there for just a moment? It that’s another thing that sometimes and it’s interesting that we when you say it, sometimes when I hear self-confidence, I don’t necessarily see that as a positive thing

Justin:

Yeah, that’s it’s a word we’ll see it. Yeah. Tell me more about your perspective, just because I’m I would like to understand that.

Mark:

Well, I think you know, if we’re looking or I think we set ourselves up in a trap to a degree when it’s up to me to establish my confidence in me. So when I see self-confidence, you know, it’s like what I did, you know, I’m it’s a it’s the ability that I have to inflate myself. And I think in in some cases, from my perspective, I think God confidence is how I would see healthy self-confidence. I know who I am. because God says who I am. I’m not comparing I’m I’m trying my best to avoid the comparison with other people, recognizing that I have gifts and talents. They may not be the spotlight ones that I o typically may want, but yet they have meaning and they have purpose in the whole dynamic of life. Because they’re I I see them as God given. So it’s my opportunity, if you will, to basically take what I’ve been given in such a way by God and continue to hone that craft, continue to work on those abilities that I’ve been given versus Just trying to muster it on my own based on the current Uh the current desire, you know, to be that person versus just being the best version of myself who God has created me to be. So like you say, that’s just a little caveat.

Justin:

So that’s how you see it.

Mark:

That’s how I see it.

Justin:

I want to share how I see it.

Mark:

Yeah, go right ahead.

Justin:

So when I think self-confidence, i it goes way back to some root things or some like early memory things. Um

Mark:

probably both of ours do.

Justin:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Um sorry, I wasn’t trying to say years. Does it be a good thing? No, no, no. I’m just talking.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um but what I think about is is two sports things.

Mark:

Oh yeah.

Justin:

Okay Um the first is being a batter.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

I just I remember playing baseball little leagues, terrified to bat.

Mark:

Wow.

Justin:

Because I knew I was gonna mess it up. Huh? Strike out. I was gonna look stupid.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

The second one is free throws.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Cause in that moment, the entire room

Mark:

Huh.

Justin:

Is looking at you and you have to perform.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And for me growing up, I looked at people who didn’t have that fear. And I said, I want that. Mm. I want that self-confidence that says, I’ve hit this many times, I’m gonna hit it again.

Mark:

Wow.

Justin:

You know, I’ve hit I’ve knocked down free throws, you know, uh ninety percent of the time I get these in. There’s no reason Nine out of ten times I’m not gonna do it.

Mark:

It’s just another one.

Justin:

Just another one, yeah, exactly. And so self confidence is and as I’m growing older, obviously I recognize it’s not always innate talent. It’s they may have sat in their backyard shooting free throws one million times and now they have that confidence in their self that they’re gonna hit that millionth in one.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And to me I think bringing God into it is important from a broad perspective, but right in the moment, you just go, you know what, I I can do this. I’ve done it a million times, I can do it a million and one. Let’s do this. Sure. And there’s that that assurance, right? And same with hitting a baseball, right? Uh they’re both, to me, very similar in in that perspective. But Growing up it was this enigma, this magic superpower people had to just have that innate confidence that says, I got this, I’m not worried about it. In fact, I’m ready. I’m excited Yeah. To have this opportunity. Bring it on. Yes, exactly. That bring it on this, yeah. So for me that was always a desire to have that and and very difficult for me to have. In fact I would say I can’t remember having that feeling except in academics.

Mark:

Wow.

Justin:

Growing up. Wasn’t until I started maybe twenties -ish where I started to Actually what’s funny is I played basketball in high school, mediocre at best, just not very good. I mean I felt like I was good, but it just never showed up in this you know, in the scores, right? Um As soon as I graduated, the pressure was off. We played pickup ball. My whole, you know, yeah. We play every week. Um in high school. As soon as I graduated, I was amazing.

Mark:

Wow.

Justin:

Like I I I’m I’m remembering but I

Mark:

As far as you were concerned or you actually heard it from other people.

Justin:

I would I would say objectively I did really well. Okay. As far as feeling amazing, I think the contrast for me was probably what made me feel like I was amazing.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

But like I could hit just about any shot I wanted to.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And just all kinds of things. And just And it was because I now had self-confidence that was a undermined by the pressure of having to be all that. Sure. And I just remember that moment, I’m like, I am good at this stupid sport. And of course it’s too late now, you know, because I can’t win this. Exactly, yes

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And so it was I would say that started some of the recognition that maybe I had some of the stuff I didn’t think I had. Mm. As it just started to come out when there wasn’t as much pressure. So that’s always been a thing Hmm. Back and forth thing for me. Um, doing music in the very beginning was terrifying for the same reasons as being at bat or at the free throw line. Everyone’s looking at you, you know, you put it on the right. But that’s what you wanted. No.

Mark:

Oh, not that.

Justin:

Oh no, no, no. So let me let me clarify. What I wanted is to have that confidence and then everyone looking at me. Okay. Because I was going to perform and do well.

Mark:

You wanted to do it when you could perform

Justin:

I wanted both. I wanted to be able to perform well in the spotlight. Sure. I wanted the spotlight and wanted to be able to perform well. But I didn’t believe I could perform well, so I avoided the spotlight. So music for me was a huge stretch and the reason I even went that route is because I love music so much and I just desperately wanted it. It was a desire of my heart. Prayed a lot about it, all kinds of stuff. And So the first few times I played indoor, especially sing , I was terrified. And I would say I messed up playing indoor singing. Um what’s nice is uh I kinda really honed a lot of my chops at Celebrate Recovery. So in the early days it was just Megan and I a lot of times in a room of like you know, fourteen people or whatever.

Mark:

Well it’s funny you say that ’cause I can remember when you first started singing at generations on stage and I can remember how your voice would crack. You know,

Justin:

and every single time That pressure would creep in my head and out it would cause me to mess up. Just like the free throws. Just like and that’s the thing. I was never good at free throws. I was never good at batting. Same thing. And it’s been a long time coming like a lot of work. Basically the free throws in the backyard to get to the point where I’m not worried now when I get up there to sing and play. I’m not worried. Sure. I might mess up. But it doesn’t even matter at this point. Where before it’s been such a transition from it really matters if I mess up. I can’t mess up and then I do to I’ve messed up before, it’s not the worst, but I really hope I don’t and then maybe I do, maybe I don’t, but it’s like not the end of the world and Kind of that vacillation over time to the point where now it’s like I might mess up, probably won’t, it’s okay.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know what I mean? Yeah ‘Cause even if I mess up, people are okay with it and we just move on and you know, no one’s gonna remember that later. And I’ve you know the people mess up and I forget about you know, it’s like But that comes from reps. And that’s that self-confidence thing that I’m that I now have in that area that I’m so thankful for. Yeah. Um that’s just one example, but Yeah, so the long story short, self-confidence has always been a desperate desire of mine. Um so that’s kinda how I see it, right? That’s the perspective I come at it from is like that’s a laudable thing. Of course I see where in some cases it also leaked into arrogance, right? Where it’s like Well, they hit their free throws, but man, I don’t want to be around ’em most of the time. You know what I mean?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But for me it was I would I would take that trade off. if I could.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know? Growing up, like in those for formative years, I’d rather be a jerk and hit every pitch.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

But that wasn’t an option. You know.

Mark:

Yeah. Did you even like playing in the field?

Justin:

No. Same thing. Same thing.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

If the balls hit you, every eye in the whole place is on you and I would drop them I hated baseball.

Mark:

I guess so.

Justin:

And I played it a couple years thinking, well I’ll get better and then it’ll be fun. And I never got better and it was never fun. And then softball We played that a little bit in high school and then, you know, I’ve been in a couple of church leagues and the say I get triggered.

Mark:

Wow.

Justin:

So it’s like I know I can catch a ball, I know I can hit, it’s not a big deal. But I just feel all that fear that like trigger and I’m just like, no, softball’s not for me. I don’t play softball.

Mark:

Wow. And it

Justin:

it just comes down to that.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And the minute I whiff of you know, pitch in softball. It’s like all those feelings come I it’s just like no I d

Mark:

Wow.

Justin:

So I like team sports where it’s like you have to Act fast, you don’t have time to think and you know like frisbee. Like Frisbee, exactly. It’s not like you’re being teed up and all eyes are on you. Are you gonna catch it? Or I mean I even in frisbee, throw it Whatever.

Mark:

Uh-huh.

Justin:

It’s in the moment, right? Yeah. But it moves different than a baby.

Mark:

Yeah. That’s no no announcement.

Justin:

But also my confidence is a lot better now, so I don’t even know if some of that stuff would naturally Since these sports are different, I don’t think they necessarily get triggered into the some of those things. Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah. It’s funny to think

Justin:

for letting me share all this. Yeah, well it’s

Mark:

it’s funny to think about You playing Frisbee, you and Megan if I may, and now Joseph is of age. Thinking looking back at you thinking about okay, yeah, how performance anxiety comes into play. Yeah. And are we are we magnifying that or are we reducing it? You know, that that performance anxiety type thing. So yeah. This is interesting.

Justin:

I’m glad you bring that up because it’s I’ve talked about this in the past many times how I tend to be corrective with my kids or like because I’m like That’s it’s the same thing with my dad. Like he wanted me to be better. I want them to be better. Sure. Like for his own sake. Like I love Shelsevin, so I want him to be the best darn frisbee player there is.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And so I’ll be like, hey, when that happens, d and It’s just really hard to stop that and then in order to like I ‘ll try really, really hard to compliment him a lot and like Just top build them up because it’s not.

Mark:

We could see you doing that with Joseph and, you know, that song, This Is How We Do It, you know, was kind of going through my mind, you know, because that’s what you were describing. It was fun, it was fun to watch. And like you say, it’s uh It’s a great opportunity.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But yeah, we were going to be able to do that. Well so a perfect

Justin:

example is like um he got an amazing throw from someone and it was go it was basically going out of bounds. And so he ran out of bounds to get it. If he would have waited it probably was gonna float in bounds. He could have stayed in and so that was my comment. Like, hey, you know, sometimes you can wait for whatever if it’s going way out of bounds, it’s fun to go catch it, but you could also just see if it’s gonna come back. Yeah, that was kind of the conversation. And I would say the next five throws he kinda started to learn the toe drag and different things like that. It was really fun to watch.

Mark:

No doubt.

Justin:

And I was very proud of him I told him many times. But that’s an example of like Could I just let it slide and say, hey, awesome you caught that. That was cool or whatever. But

Mark:

would he have learned the other part if you hadn’t addressed it?

Justin:

Yeah. Probably maybe, I don’t know, he’s a smart kid. But that’s that’s the thing I’m always battling, right? Is like that.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um but yeah, as far as like that confidence and those things. I’m always thinking look like looking at his face and if I see him have that like disappointed look or whatever, I’m like crap, I messed up. You know what I mean? ‘Cause that it happens, you know.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And then I try just try and balance it out. But you know, I I don’t know how I’m doing and I don’t know how he’s gonna end up, but I’m sure I am trying, you know.

Mark:

No.

Justin:

Um But it’s it’s fun. It’s really fun to have him out there. And just to see him perform well. Like he he’s good, right? Yeah. He’s good.

Mark:

He’s good,

Justin:

fine. I mean, I’m his dad, so I think he’s amazing. He’s good. He’s good.

Mark:

No doubt about it. Yeah, he has some great catches.

Justin:

He did, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Anyway.

Mark:

It’s fun time. But no.

Justin:

So I’m very proud of him.

Mark:

Yes. Rightfully.

Justin:

So what did we decide? Can we be proud of our children? That’s the question mark. What do you what’s your take after all this?

Mark:

I think I think we have the ability to look at our children and be able to recognize they have God given talents and abilities. And when they’re exhibiting those I don’t think there’s any issue in acknowledging that. To be able to say, nice job. And I and yet, you know, I wanna recognize at that point, you know, it’s not so much it’s not so much that they make me proud. You follow me? That I’m proud of you as much as it is they feel that on their own for a for doing and excelling in ways that only they can That’s that’s kind of how I look at it. It’s I apologize, it probably sounds a little bit nebulous. Yeah, I d you know. Because I you know, I think, you know, there’s there’s more to it at times and being able to communicate that it’s it’s not about me being proud of you. It’s about your ability to say, yeah, I have some talents and it’s my job to use them well. Even if nobody’s watching.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

That audience of one type dynamic.

Justin:

I got a specific scenario that I I’m trying to pin you down. So I’m gonna try and pin you down. Let’s say, you know, one of

Mark:

I never wrestled. I never liked wrestling. So maybe it’s not you know something.

Justin:

Well, you know, we’re we’re doing this.

Mark:

Yeah, I’m fine with it. I’m fine with it. Um

Justin:

You know, one of your kids is struggling with a thing. Um I’m trying to think. I I’m not gonna come up with the thing, but you can fill in the blanks. And you know, you’ve watched him flounder a couple times and so you say I have some pointers for you. Here here’s some things you could try, you know? And you suggest those things and they go out and they knock it out of the park. They they they kill it. Like your advice was exactly what they needed How do you handle that feeling that goes, hmm, yes? What is that to you? Is that pride? Is that do you not have that? Like what h how help me understand Mark’s picture of that. Because to me that’s that pride of like, yes, we did this together. You know, I did my part as a father, you did your part as a kid, like look at this output, it’s amazing. It it just feels great

Mark:

Yeah. Um I’m I’m thinking about it and I think our scenario is gonna be different.

Justin:

Oh, here you go. He’s sliding out again. I cannot Pin this guy. I guess I’m not good at wrestling either, Mark.

Mark:

I’m s I’m squirmy.

Justin:

He is squirmy.

Mark:

But I I’m thinking about it in that that context of them learning it. Okay? Are they gonna learn it with or without me? Type dynamic. You follow me? And I think sometimes As a parent, it can be more important that I feel the way I do than my child feels the way they do. That’s that’s the part that I would wrestle with Well I feel good about what I taught you. Yeah and that’s that’s because that changed everything.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me? And I and I guess my perspective is I and I s and I see this, I’ll say I see this even with my clients. You know, I’ll I’ll have a kid, you know, that comes into my office and you know and I’ll talk with them. And yet there’s always that part in the back of my mind that says, okay, this is a stage. This is a life cycle stage. Now when we get on the other side of that stage Will I get accolades? Will I get compliments for what I did in my office? Quite possibly. But at the same time, I’m gonna look I’m when I hear that from that parent. It’s not so much what I did. We I just worked with a child through a stage and they got to the other side of that stage. And they did exactly what they were designed to do, you know, based on that developmental curve You know, that’s age appropriate. And you know, that’s how that’s how I’m gonna see it. To the point that I’m like

Justin:

if you just take Mark out of the equation, everyone would Mark and Lizzie would be just as amazing. Those cussed clients of yours they would have just gone through their stage and been healthy Just take Mark out, God, because he’s useless down here. He’s got nothing to offer here.

Mark:

Okay, but and I’m willing to use them But yeah, I guess I just I’m just mindful of my role.

Justin:

It’s impressive your skills skill set there.

Mark:

Well it’s

Justin:

squeezing sneaking out at credit.

Mark:

First time I wrestled was Ryan Schrader. He picked me up, threw me down on the mat and dislocated my shoulder. So you know it’s when when I

Justin:

‘ve been good at getting out of those sticky situations ever since

Mark:

Yeah, I’ve always been, you know, wiry and scrawny, you know, so it’s like, yeah.

Justin:

So you’ve never you’ve never had that scenario I just described.

Mark:

This is another dynamic, okay? And I’ll I’ll I was it and this is this is part of how I see it. I loved you know, coaching John’s soccer.

Justin:

Okay. Early on. Great example.

Mark:

Okay. And and I will say that I got to a point where I needed to step away.

Justin:

Sure.

Mark:

Because I didn’t know everything I need I wanted John to know regarding his ability to play soccer. Now I’m gonna say that probably some of my in John ‘s soccer career, probably some of my most Proud moments, if I may, regarding him were watching him play high school ball. He could just drive a ball. I mean, I can still, you know, uh you know to where he j they they would have him take goal kicks. ‘Cause he just could drive it that hard he could but I’m gonna recognize

Justin:

I played soccer with him one time like a couple months ago and I can attest

Mark:

Yeah. I got to the point where it’s not fun playing with John anymore. I don’t want to try and stop it.

Justin:

Oh yeah.

Mark:

You follow me? As a father, it’s like it hurts too much to get in the way.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But I’ll also recognize that that wasn’t as much about my ability as his coach, as like you said, it’s the it’s the net in the backyard that’s still there to this day. that that took those ten thousand shots from and it’s it’s it’s even the the backyard light that’s still kind of hanging off the house, you know, where it got hit by a soccer ball coming the other direction. And it’s the it’s the window that broke. you know, because the ball was getting kicked back towards the house. All of that really played into that ability that he had, a God-given ability, more so than anything that I gave him from my perspective.

Justin:

Yes. That’s

Mark:

so that’s how I see it.

Justin:

I’m just saying you take Mark out of the equation and you replace it with the father who’s Doesn’t appreciate broken windows or you know what I mean? Like and says, no, we’re not doing that in the backyard. You f you find a park to go do that in Right?

Mark:

Yeah. Well we did the park and the backyard, you know, that kind of thing. But be and I’m hearing I’m hearing

Justin:

him. He’s too good at this. I give it

Mark:

I’m hearing where you’re coming from that my role mattered as John’s father.

Justin:

Yeah. And I’m just wondering if you ever acknowledged that in the moment of like that. You know what I mean? Like a moment of I’m glad I contributed that way. I see how it impacted him that way, and I’m thankful for that.

Mark:

I I see it as a stick. Hmm. Okay. Because I’ll recognize, okay, as

Justin:

You can’t use the stick against me.

Mark:

Why not? I’ll this is this is the other part. I’ll recognize that probably John and here again, Lizzie has her talent, she’s just smarter than I am. And you know, that’s because of her mother. I’ll say that right on here. But I would dare say John has some of the talents he has or his desire to work with his hands. I would see that as something that I probably instilled in him. Okay. Now I’m gonna see that as a stick in the context that I gave him that. He probably learned that from I modeled that for him. And yeah, I’m also going to recognize that shucks. I didn’t model the academics as well as I could to where there may come a day.

Justin:

That’s why he’s such a dummy. I hope he listens to this and he tells me about it. He’s not he John is super smart. I’m just gonna go on the record. And and that’s what

Mark:

and I recognize that based on his mom’s DNA and some contributions I’ve made, but being able to recognize I see it as a stick because sometimes I’m willing to recognize shocks. Maybe I wish he would have got his you know, and he’s in the military and they’re he’s getting an education that I’m not I’m not concerned. Yeah. But I see it in that stick dynamic that says shucks. Maybe I implemented a little too much of that And not enough of that. But at the same time, he’s gonna be, by God’s grace, he’s gonna be just fine with or without my influence at this point. Yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. So stick thing, I’m gonna take the stick back and say part of the be the encouragement with the stick is to take ig it to make Accept and acknowledge the good parts in balance to the bad because that’s that’s part of what makes it a healthy balance. Of holding that stick, say that bad comes with the good. The good is the part that balances it out, so it’s not always dragging on the ground in the bad. And the bad is what balances out and make sure, you know, the the good isn’t dragging on the ground and the sense of pride and all those things. So I I do think there is an important part of the stick, which is acknowledgement of the good.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know.

Mark:

Yeah. an awareness of the things that I might not see as beneficial.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And yet at the same time I have other gifts that

Justin:

You can’t even say that. Can

Mark:

can be honed. I mean can be

Justin:

beneficial.

Mark:

Well no, um yeah, that that can be developed even further. Yeah. Than what I might think is good right now.

Justin:

Yeah. Well the thing about the stick is both can be developed.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

If you’re aware and you see the stick, you oh yeah, I’m really good at this, so I’m gonna keep working on that.

Mark:

Creating creating greater balance.

Justin:

Yep. And then the bad, you say, I’m gonna work on not doing the bad. And yeah. That would be my encouragement with the stick. But we’re not talking about the stick. Um I think This is I was gonna say this like forty-two minutes ago, I think. Uh the antidote to humility or to to the pride humility conversation is gratitude. I believe that is the thing that can dissolve the false humility or the pride. Like both ends of that continuum. And I think gratitude is a great antidote. Sure. What are your thoughts?

Mark:

No, I’d I’d agree with that. And I think that’s the ability when we when we’re able to step back from what we did. as parents or I did as an individual and say, wow God, you you did far more than I could ask or imagine. Even even with me, you know, I think that’s that’s that’s where gratitude comes into play. And I’m just grateful for the abilities that I have and I’m not concerned about comparing myself to other people. Yeah.

Justin:

And even it h it it can help you in responses to flattery or whatever. Oh sure. Right. Um Yeah, and so I I think because when you think pride you think what’s the antidote? Humility. I have to be be humble. The problem is You’ve heard this and probably everyone’s heard this. If you’re trying to be humble, then you’re not, right? Like that’s not how humble

Mark:

humility you don’t.

Justin:

Yeah, exactly. And like try trying to be humble is kind of a false effort. Um it it and the same thing like if you if you’re doing that false humility thing and always whatever, the antidote isn’t take take more pride in and uh yeah the again I think the antidote to both is gratitude. I really think that’s true. And it can a allow you to accept compliments better. It can allow you to handle those moments where you’d be super prideful better. You know, I think it can handle it can help in both of those things.

Mark:

Yep. No. Appreciate you sharing, Justin.

Justin:

Yeah, you too. That was fun.

Mark:

A good little bit of insight into uh New Justin, older Justin, early Justin. Yeah.

Justin:

A little bit of Mark too. We know he likes to wrestle.

Mark:

There you go.

Justin:

He doesn’t like compliments. So there you have it.

Mark:

That’s how I see it

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like How I See It, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C-L-I -C-K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.