Justin:

You put that in your pocket.

Mark:

Put that in your pipe and smoke it this morning.

Justin:

That’s what we that should be our ending tagline.

Mark:

Yeah? Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Justin:

That’s how I see it. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. No, not some

Mark:

I th I like how I see it.

Justin:

We’ll work trap it.

Mark:

There you go. Yeah. Uh

Justin:

I am recording.

Mark:

Oh you are?

Justin:

Oh yeah.

Mark:

Oh yeah, good. Well fair enough.

Justin:

I wanted to get all that good stuff behind.

Mark:

You know, it’s always the good stuff that comes first. My glasses aren’t going to distract you, are they?

Justin:

No, I should’ve got a picture because this is this is like real wisdom here.

Mark:

Oh yeah, you think I think this is just

Justin:

I just like the uh the look of the podcast stuff, your Bible and you see uh beard and sunglass uh glasses. Or glass eyes and

Mark:

glasses, that’s right That’s right.

Justin:

It’s a good look. I’ll try and post that.

Mark:

Yeah, we’ll do what we can.

Justin:

Is that alright if I post that? I’m a social. That’s how I get purpose, you know. I understand posting.

Mark:

Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural Polarization through thoughtful conversations.

What’s the deal I saw somebody it was I’m probably on the far end? on Facebook. They can own your pages, o own your pictures now or something like that. Mm. Anything they put on can technically be used against you in a court of law or s

Justin:

have you w did you see that on Facebook or something? Yeah. There’s this thing that goes around like every two years or something where it’s like I have to post this on my wall and that’s what tells Facebook they can’t legally use my stuff So I’m posting this and if you don’t want ’em to use your stuff, then you know, like

Mark:

Copy paste.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um first of all, that does nothing. Nothing. There’s no legal You’re not doing anything legal either. Um and when you signed up for Facebook account and you scroll past the the terms and conditions for you know several pages.

Mark:

Once you push that one agree at the bottom. Right.

Justin:

That’s right, that’s right. You’re signing on. You basically said you can use my images for whatever you want.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

Yeah Um

Mark:

well that’s cool.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And that’s pretty much every web service. Like there’s a reason there’s a mile on terms and conditions. It’s so that basically Number one, opens up the door so they can do some stuff in the future that they might consider. Sure. Um so they don’t have to like have all their you know, roadmap planned right now. They can kind of keep some doors open. And number two covers them legally so you can’t sue them because, you know, in one of their promotional billboards or something. It’s like, hey, that’s my picture. You know, that kind of thing.

Mark:

I gotcha Yeah. So makes perfect sense. I mean it’s a public entity.

Justin:

It is, yeah. Yeah. It’s free for a reason.

Mark:

And yeah, exactly. Just like our podcast. It’s free for a reason. You get what you pay for.

Justin:

That’s right, and we’re gonna use all of your data. No, we don’t have your data, so we can’t use your data. But if you want to send us some data, we might use it in our promotional materials.

Mark:

So morning Justin.

Justin:

Good morning.

Mark:

How are ya?

Justin:

I’m good.

Mark:

Come on now. How are you?

Justin:

Disappointingly cold.

Mark:

Are you?

Justin:

Well I’m not, but it is outside.

Mark:

So if you’re not disappointingly cold, how are you? Hashtag Come on, Justin, I’m trying to help you. This is a Justiness, Omenuit and we’re

Justin:

I mean this is this Justinism is failing to adopt.

Mark:

Well you know it came on was it came out so dandy Justinism. There you go.

Justin:

I have to Yeah. I’m Dandy Mark.

Mark:

I’m glad to hear it.

Justin:

I appreciate you encouraging my Justinisms.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

I’m Dandy. How are you?

Mark:

I am very well, thank you. I appreciate you asking.

Justin:

Are you dandy then?

Mark:

I am. I’m not dandy because that ‘s not a word I typically use, but I am very well. And it’s a pleasure to be here with you.

Justin:

Yes, same to you. Same to you.

Mark:

Yes. A little brisk this morning, but you know, we’re I’m thankful for this little warm office to slide into and yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. What are we talking about? Do you know?

Mark:

I do. I do. Um

Justin:

That’s good.

Mark:

I well, like you say, I think many ideas pop around our eye our heads in the process of a week, but I was definitely uh thinking about purpose this week. And I think part of it, um, we’re starting Marriage on the Rock, Jimmy Evans, you know, he he has those four criteria. you know, that uh basically he believes I I agree with him, but you know, every every

Justin:

For the listener.

Mark:

Yeah, I’m getting there. Jimmy Evans and explaining the

Justin:

Who well yeah, well the marriage on the Rock.

Mark:

Yeah, the four principles. Marriage on the Rock is basically

Justin:

You said we’re starting it.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Like we are on this podcast.

Mark:

Not on this podcast. But Chris and I on Sundays at church.

Justin:

Get your butts to Generation Church Sunday morning.

Mark:

No, our sign-ups are full. Our sign-ups are full. No. But yeah. Yeah, it’s not open to all people. No panic there. There wasn’t any panic there. There’s just a uh assertive moment. But

Justin:

I’m sorry.

Mark:

That’s all good. The premise is that there’s four things that only God can provide, and that’s, you know, acceptance, unconditional acceptance. Identity. You know, that he knows who we are, created us for a reason. Um, security, you know, to where if we’re in the center of God’s will, it doesn’t matter where you are, it’s probably the safest place for you by far And then purpose. And I and I don’t know I don’t know why. Uh just that that whole aspect of purpose. Well I do know why. ‘Cause I I’ve uh there I quite often find myself sitting in a front row to people’s lives. through sessions, recognizing and seeing this this thread, you know, of purpose that gets woven through each person’s life to a certain degree That, you know, what happened what happened years ago is still connected to something that is connected with today. And, you know, and there’s just this. cycle but I think it also has a tremendous purpose of these things that I’m learning and what that what that does in my life. And I was and I and I was taking that into consideration with you know what we see in our culture at times, I believe we see, is is that either That sense of per I guess that sense of purpose is a polarizing topic. To where, you know, either either life in itself doesn’t have any purpose and it’s just a biological thing that exists in a moment of history. Life’s what you

Justin:

make it.

Mark:

Yes. Or, you know, my life does have a purpose and there’s a reason for every life. And

Justin:

Yeah, so that distinction would be a higher purpose, right? Because A purpose above you as opposed to a purpose you generate.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Is that fair?

Mark:

Yeah, that’s fair. And I think it’s also a purpose that has design or a purpose that has no meaning. It’s it’s it’s it’s to the point of meaningless.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

All I do is exist for a moment. And I go back to the ground and I’m part of a food chain, basically. A cycle of life.

Justin:

That’s purpose.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. There’s something to be said for, You know, if you think you’re uh gonna, you know, feeding plants, and there’s something to be said for what my body does. Yeah. But I think our lives are much more than that.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And as and it it was funny because as I was thinking about that, it was uh that Ro Romans 12, out of the message came to my mind as far as uh, so here’s what I want you to do. God helping you take your everyday ordinary life, your sleeping, eating, going to work, and walking around life, and place it before God as an offering Embracing what God does for you is the best thing you can do for Him. Don’t become so well adjusted in your culture that you fit into it without even thinking Instead, fix your attention on God, you will be changed from the inside out. And it’s and it’s you know readily res recognize what he wants from you and quickly respond to it Unlike the culture around you, always dragging you down to its level of immaturity, God brings the best out of you and develops well-formed maturity in you.

Justin:

What’s that passage? I know it’s a message.

Mark:

Yeah, that it’s Romans 12. Romans 12. Romans 12, 1 through 2. And I guess that’s where I was that’s what really I guess just kind of spoke to me as I as I watch people and I and I’m and I from a cultural standpoint I recognize how you know depression in adolescence is, you know, seemingly at an all time high. You know, you don’t have to look at too many editorials, you know, in a paper magazine or something, you know, but what you’ll see, you know an image of, you know, a kid that’s that’s sitting in water. I’ve seen the images over and over again, you know. in depression, you know, with you know, and and I think, you know, some of it comes down to the I wouldn’t even dare say at times hate that, you know, can be surrounding this, you know, the generate this generation. And I and I think for me. Um, when I think about that, it’s sad for me, but I also think about it in the context of All those lives, every one of those lives, was designed from my perspective with a tremendous amount of purpose. And I think from my perspective, each one of those lives, I think about our kids, you know, I think about how they’re designed, what they’re what they’re um Uh yeah. The thing th what they’re gifted at, the things that they do well. And I think about, you know, our kids in this next generation, I think them very similar. in a in a ways as we think about, you know, as we hear about Esther, when we think about the Old Testament as far as, you know, for such a time as this. And I think, you know, um I I I think it’s easier at times for me to recognize the purpose and those coming behind me more so than it is my own personal. you know, life. I I mean I recognize my life has purpose, but for such a time as this when I look at our cultural dynamics, I recognize how, you know, this next generation from my perspective will be very much a turning point, I think, in some ways, you know, culturally speaking. Not and and that’s why I’m saying, you know, placing your life before God, allowing him to, you know, use your abilities, use your talents, because Each and every person listening from my perspective has a purpose. And I think when we just kind of Ignore that. You know, it’s easy to just kind of fall into the day after day But I like that verse where it talks about, you know, just take your going to work, your everyday eating. Don’t don’t become complacent. But take each day as a gift, place it before God, and allow him to transform you from the inside out. And I believe that’s where, you know, because like Esther, I don’t think, you know, or anybody in the Old Testament for that matter, I don’t think They woke up every day planning to part the Red Sea.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, but yet in that process of the cycle of learning and and growing and maturity with God, they got to that point where their lives had meaning. Excuse me, every day of their lives had meaning and purpose, but they got to that point where it really kind of came down to a pivotal moment.

Justin:

Yes. Yeah, and I think the difficult thing is the years preceding that pivotal moment that are building up to that moment. But you know, moses didn’t know he was gonna part the red sea. Right? Like and Esther didn’t know she was, you know for such a time as this. She didn’t you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

None of it makes sense until that moment passes. And and I do believe, you know we’ve all experienced and by all, I mean, you know, if you’ve been around enough time, right? Um experience those moments where you went, Oh, you know, that’s why all that, right? Yeah. But all that when you’re in the middle of all that, it certainly seems purposeless. Or can.

Mark:

Yeah. Right? It can. It can. Yeah. And I think And I think on the other side of that, if I may also go, you know, it’s like um, I think of Elijah. you know, when he had uh when he called down the fire from heaven on the on the sacrifices and and God came down. and you know and gobbled it all up with fire, you know. I think about that. And then I think about the days after.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Where he actually wrestled with a sense of meaning and purpose. It’s like You know, you just did this two days ago, but now it’s like you know

Justin:

, and there’s something to be said for those highs followed by lows too. You know, if every, Yeah. If if you were having those huge moments, you know, every year or whatever, you’d also be having those you know, the the the high hangover, right? Like the like the follow up of, well now what?

Mark:

You know.

Justin:

And Jonah too, you know. Like I mean not that he was super excited about doing what he did, but he certainly had an impactful moment in history and then went and moped, you know?

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Yeah, so that uh yeah. That makes a lot of sense and I think yeah. I think that’s probably a pretty common thing.

Mark:

And I think my desire through this time is to basically say each and every day has purpose and meaning.

Justin:

Yeah, I would love for you to explain why. Why, Mark? Why do you think that and how do you think that? You know, for an encouragement to the Elijah ‘s and the Jonah’s and the kids who haven’t experienced their moment yet, right? Like why is today s you know?

Mark:

Yeah, and I and I guess I see it as part of a a process. to where I d and here again I gotta I’m wrestling with my own thinking based on your question. So uh yeah. I’m I’m thinking about it as a growing process to where each day matters and to the degree that I don’t think something matters. I don’t engage the process.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

That and that that’s that’s how that’s my answer. And it it was funny, they did a They did a study. This is and uh it was interesting. They gave they told people, I heard about this, and so like I say, that you can fact check me if you want, but it was a study that a person shared with me in my office. So It was interesting. They were talking about they gave individuals um expensive sunglasses, but they told them that the glasses were really cheap. Okay, and they gave them to them. The interesting part was as they measured accordingly as they measured their behavior, okay The person tended to minimize themselves and therefore their actions based on the fact that they had cheap sunglasses. And I think our lives can be very similar when we say, uh, what does it matter? What does my life matter? What what value do I have?

Justin:

Yeah, you cheapen your own activities.

Mark:

Exactly. You cheapen all of your activities.

Justin:

It makes it that much easier to, like C. S. Lewis said, play with um how do you say that? The mud, you know. You remember that?

Mark:

No, I don’t.

Justin:

So there’s a quote from C. S. Lewis about um oh man, I gotta I’m I’m actually gonna look it up because it’s too good to while I look that up Uh it’s also making me thinking about in terms of process, uh uh you know, we talked about in previous episodes the value of winter.

Mark:

Sure. Yeah.

Justin:

And uh winter is not a time of growth

Mark:

Correct. Right?

Justin:

Right. Usually follows a you know a harvest.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

It’s a time of almost, but it can be a time of unseen regrowth. as we store up.

Justin:

Yeah, so I that’s that’s certainly what I’m I’m I’m I’m getting at it, which is to say that’s something I’ve been learning is the value of winter.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

In a process.

Justin:

Yeah, and I you know, I’ve lived forty years now.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I would say it’s taken me forty years. I’m still learning. You walk out in winter and it’s like, no, this plant’s dead, dead. This tree’s not coming back, you know. Just th the perception of what it looks like in winter is no hope.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah. And

Justin:

you’ve been th you know, I’ve been through thirty nine winters before. Yeah. I know how this works. And yet this winter’s different.

Mark:

And i here’s what here’s what I like about what you’re saying as I’m thinking about it is the even in winter, I think the difficult part is right now as we’re coming out of winter because if I’m looking at one tree, I’m gonna say that one’s dead. But I can look to my right And I can see one that’s starting to get all red and starting to have blossoms coming up. You know that one’s dead. Or why you think it’s dead. When in reality Yeah, that’s not the there’s a different design. There’s a different purpose. There’s a different time for that specific one. And I think our At times it’s easy to look at other people and say, uh, my life doesn’t have as much purpose as that person.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

That comparison comes into play.

Justin:

Yep. Or you can compare the other thing that can you can compare in so many ways Oh

Mark:

sure can.

Justin:

You can compare right now. So that person’s budding and I’m still dormant. Or you can compare, you know, it’s harvest time and I remember when my harvest was, you know, whatever. Now look at this person in this season. In my season, I’m I’m uh it’s not the Same, you know what I mean?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So you can compare past seasons as well. And yeah, I mean there’s just so many ways we can compare, right? And yeah. You want me to read that quote now?

Mark:

I do, but I think at times when we compare we undermine our own purpose.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Very much. And that’s great, yeah. That’s the difficult part. So yes, back to back to see.

Justin:

I’m glad you said that because we’re talking about comparison, but I think it’s important to say, That’s not good. You don’t do the comparison. It’s a trap. Yeah, very much.

Mark:

And it doesn’t minimize. I mean, when we do, we tend to minimize. Yes. Yes.

Justin:

Yeah, so back to w you know, what made me think of the C. S. Lewis quote was what you were saying is when we don’t have that sense of purpose. Mm, whether it’s coming out of a season of purpose or it’s just we haven’t never entered one or whatever. is when we start to be content with lesser activities, right? Like lesser things, because what’s w what’s the point? You know, might as well, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um So the l the C. S. Lewis quote that some I’m sure some people will recognize it. He ba he said this We are half hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us Like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum b because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased. Have you ever heard that quote before?

Mark:

I have. Now that you say that. Yeah. Yeah. I didn’t uh thanks for sharing that though. Yeah. That’s that’s uh some good imagery as usual from CS.

Justin:

Thank you, Mr. Sherman. Mr. Narnia.

Mark:

Yes, exactly. Yeah, when you were talking about playing with stuff, it’s like playing with Narnia, playing you know. Yeah. Playing with Aslan. But what do you say? Mud pies?

Justin:

Mud pies in a slum.

Mark:

In a slum, yeah. When you have an offer of a holiday at the sea.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, it’s so good. And that’s essentially what we’re talking about is every one of us has that offer of a holiday at the sea, or that infinite joy, I guess, is what he started with, right? Yeah this idea of starting today embracing the eternal purpose that I have, which includes today and it the day after and the moment after until eternity, you know?

Mark:

Yeah And I s and I I’m still thinking about that in that context of um I think a purpose I think purpose sometimes my purpose might be at times making the mud pie though You follow me? I’m not I’m I’m recognizing from my the way I’m hearing that is yes, eternal opportunities lie ahead. And we exchange, like like Jonah said, we we were we exchange worthless idols for the blessings of God. But I think, you know, there there can be, and I think it’s where we find it difficult at times, there can be a purpose. in my mate what seems like just making mud pies in my daily job. I’m going to work I’m doing this thing over and over again and I want to recognize that can seem purposeless.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And we can minimize the joy that’s available and yet we don’t want to become I’m recognizing the other part of that, we don’t want to become complacent.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

And I’m here so yeah, push back I’m just

Justin:

No, I love what you’re saying and I agree with you. I just you know that’s That’s not what that quote means to me, but I’m but I’m I think it’s a good jump to that point, which is and again I wouldn’t necessarily use the making mud pies as being a purposeful thing, ’cause in that analogy it’s essentially saying doing a worthless negative thing versus you know my brain was stuck I guess is what I’m saying. No no you’re fine. Yes. I completely agree in that there are some mundane activities that are purposeful but feel purposeless. And and that includes the daily, you know, disciplining your children or bringing them to school or you know, like I I mentioned, walking from my house to my office, you know, and just you know, like those mundane moments. where there’s opportunity to see um uh uh there’s a verse that says God has set eternity in the hearts of men Mm-hmm. And I love that that verse. And it just makes me like there are moments where I walk to my office where um I don’t know, it’s like you used to okay, there’s two versions, right? There’s the version of like this again It’s another day at the grind. Okay, sure. You know, you see my dead tree over there. Whatever. You know, you just kinda have this this nothing’s

Mark:

blossoming.

Justin:

Yeah, exactly. And then there are other days where it’s like All right. Today is a day of you know, you just feel I don’t know, like that sense of purpose.

Mark:

Sure. Empowered.

Justin:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um yeah, and I I do feel like We are drawn to that purpose and we are become jaded when we feel like it’s not there. And I think a lot like what you’re talking about with those the the the faces you see across um the room from you in counseling that are struggling, I think they all desperately desire purpose, right? And But you get to a place where you’re jaded. Like, okay, I tried that purpose thing. I thought I mattered. Now I know the truth, right? Like this this mundane life has proven otherwise, you know?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I don’t know if that’s You know, it kind of makes me you know polarizing topics or might makes me wonder if like our everybody gets a trophy kind of uh cultural moment, right?

Mark:

Uh-huh

Justin:

has a big part of that. It’s like, well, if everyone gets a trophy, what do trophies matter?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I certainly get the sense of that in a lot of the kids And like compared to when I was growing up, mm, like sports, competition, all that stuff felt like it mattered so much. And I look back and I think it ma mattered too much and it impacted my psyche in a n a lot of negative ways. And I almost see the opposite now where it’s like, yeah, maybe I’ll play, maybe I won’t. It doesn’t really matter, you know, like again, those trophies. I mean I I got a whole chest full of trophies from you know when I was a kid and everyone got ’em and it’s like, well, you know, there’s just not as much of a desire to climb that mountain and put stick a flag in the summit and say, I did it, you know what I mean? It’s like you know what I’m saying? So I wonder if that ha that impacts that as well and it contributes towards the jaded nature is just there’s what’s the point of you know what I mean?

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. No, I was I was thinking about it. I was listening to what you said and I was thinking about you in the context of where would you say you developed or have to what degree you’ve developed your sense of purpose. What is if someone were to ask you, you know, in the process of a simple conversation, what’s your purpose in life, Justin? You know, just over coffee.

Justin:

Uh that’s funny. Right after Dandy, you know, I’m Dandy. Well what’s your purpose?

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

I mean really we we should be asking those questions. But we should but

Mark:

it’s the same time it’s like

Justin:

catch somebody off guard. You know what we do instead. What do you do for work?

Mark:

Yeah, exactly.

Justin:

It’s like

Mark:

mighty cold this morning, wasn’t it, Justin? Yeah.

Justin:

No, but I’m saying when we move past that into real conversation, so often I find myself or others asking, you know, what do you do for work or who you know, like who are you essentially in the form of, you know, what’s your purpose in form the form of work, you know? What do you do? Yeah, which gets to my thought about being with a job, which we’ll come back to if you remind me. But um yeah. So w the last time someone asked me about my purpose in a coffee shop The uh the answer I had was no, I think I’m still working on that. Yeah, I think it’s a lifelong pursuit. It should be, honestly. Um, I think that’s true. Yeah. Um I would say I definitely struggled with my moments, years, months, whatever of lacking in purpose and and wondering. Um but most of those moments preceded as did we already talk about Esther?

Mark:

Yes. Yeah, we talked about that. Yeah, you don’t have to introduce her.

Justin:

Uh preceded those moments of like, oh, that’s why I was a house painter for ten years. You know what I mean? And there was Yeah, painting houses for I I started doing that when I was sixteen and it was amazing in summer job and then um right after graduating I decided I’d keep doing that while going to college and so that’s like all right I’m doing work and whatever Then I graduated and then I was like, you know what I’m I’m gonna keep painting ’cause I just got married and it pays the bills. And from that moment, you know, I’m in my early twenties when a guy’s looking for figuring out what his purpose is, right? Like what it is to be a man and and an adult and it just all felt wrong. Like I’m not I don’t I’m not meant to be a painter, you know? I just felt like that wasn’t my purpose.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And yet that’s what I was stuck in. You know, and to use go back to that analogy, he I felt like I was making mud pies in a slum, like you said. Um and it just felt wrong. And what I really wanted was something much more glamorous, you know what I mean? Sure. And

Mark:

Anything much more glamorous.

Justin:

Well, I had a s a couple specific versions of what I wanted. One was ministry and again, in my mind in early twenties at Nick Dum’s clamors. Uh yeah, I like to be in in a paid ministry kinda. Um have influence on people’s life. But you know, in a way that was sustained by pay, right? Like um and then the the other version was basically a graphic designer living in a loft in New York. That was That was just, you know, the the top of the food chain to me was was that. And uh neither of those things was painting houses in North Carolina. Sure. You know what I mean? It was or Minnesota. Um So I struggled just kind of on a daily basis with what’s my purpose and certainly there was things around that I was able to contribute in. In fact, I started getting involved in Celebrate Recovery in in 2007

Mark:

Nice.

Justin:

Which is a long time ago. And during that time I was painting houses and you know, stuff like that has always been a part of m my life, you know, some ministries, some opportunities with other guys and not recognizing in those moments how much a part of my purpose those things were.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Where now I’m forty.

Mark:

Yeah. D

Justin:

double the twenty. Yeah. And I’m able to see

Mark:

a long time ago.

Justin:

Yeah. Long time. I’m able to see those the journey and how every one of those moments was part of my purpose, right? And like even the drudgery of like again going back to the analogy, taking wrong and making those mud pies. was teaching me how to make mud pies in in a way that was honoring, right? Like

Mark:

sure.

Justin:

And, you know, there was plenty of years I spent uh come being a in a complaining position about my role as a house painter And I would say right before God let me get out of that. He and I would almost say he wasn’t gonna let me get out of it ’til I learned to stop being that way and figure out how to, you know Whether you eat or drink or whatsoever you do, do all to the glory of God. And then the other verse about um work as unto the Lord, right? There’s a verse about that. Like those those types of verses were what he was teaching me in that time to basically say when you go paint a house you need to paint a house as if I’m paying your paycheck. Because guess what, buddy? I am. You know, and this is why you’re here on this earth, this is to serve me, not not your boss, your banner boss, not the the house uh owner, right? Homeowner, sure. And that d dramatically transformed some things in my life when I was able to start putting that into place on a daily basis. And I would argue gave me purpose painting houses. You know what I mean?

Mark:

Sure. Yeah.

Justin:

Um so I don’t know, that’s a long story, but you know we have time. We’re at a coffee shop.

Mark:

Exactly. Exactly.

Justin:

So purpose is, I think I’m always on the hunt for it, but I’m also on the lookout for what today is proving of past purpose. You know, like how today’s purpose is being made clear through through its activities and the results of harvest, right? And

Mark:

sure.

Justin:

Um again, I think that’s also a a thing that can I think there’s there’s two scenarios. There’s there’s Um, someone who hasn’t really experienced a significant harvest and that I would put that a lot of kids in that you that youth you know, youth in that camp where it’s like You you haven’t experienced it yet, so it’s why would you believe there is one?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And then I would say there’s maybe the crowd of you had one harvest, or like one moment that you felt was in that’s past and you don’t have any proof of the seasonal nature of harvest.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? And so it’s like that I think in both those situations it can be very disheartening or or lacking in purpose. But

Mark:

No, I like your use of that word, uh the uh the analogy of the harvest. Because I think there is that part of us, you know, that once you experience it It’s like, well, I want that every day, you know, but yeah, harvest is is part of a season. And you know, and if I haven’t experienced that, it’s to the point of where’s mine?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, that kind of thing. And I and I like that when you see it in that aspect of season being able to recognize that yeah, it’s coming or it’s going to a certain degree. Both at the same time, maybe even, you know. It’s like one’s going while the other one’s still on the way. And yet being able to recognize there’s there’s purpose in summer, winter, spring.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

You know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And the you know The little plug for our planting things episode. There you go. You know, we talk a lot about what nature’s been teaching m me specifically and all but y you know, you certainly talked about that too, but you’ve been involved in nature a lot longer than I have. So it’s not nearly as like, oh, interesting. Uh but the value of winter is just something that’s been an ongoing learning for me in my thirty nine, forty year year, you know, of life. And uh yeah, I I think it’d be interesting, Mark, to talk about or to call out a few scenarios m that are difficult in terms of purpose. I mean we talked about The kids, right, who have experienced the harvest.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Maybe the one time harvest. Maybe you were a kid and you were in college and you were part of like you know, FCA or something or you had a significant moment at college where it felt like this is what life is about.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Because I’ve heard that a lot, right? People go to college and they find their people and they’re able to I d I think about Lizzie too, like she’s going to Florida cleaning up after hurricane. Like I d I don’t know that you can feel more purpose than that. Like I hear you. Like I am doing the thing. You know, and I feel like that happens a lot in college where You know, people who are young and and and on fire and and have energy, you know, get together and they do something and it’s so cool. Yeah, I love hearing about it. But you think about that person, they experienced that harvest for the first time and then they come back home or they can’t find the j you know, they have to move back home to the parents’ basement ’cause they couldn’t find a job Or whatever, you know, like there’s that scenario.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I also think about um uh empty nesters, right? The last kid finally left and it’s like, Oh, it’s mighty quiet in here, you know? Um Retirement is another one I think of that I hear uh, you know, people who move you know, ’cause we live in a retirement uh community, right? Like majorly. And uh you you definitely get wind of that. I certainly have. Um of people being like I don’t know what to do with myself. Like, you know, they had purpose. They were, you know, a big wig at some n you know, multinational corporation or in in some cases a They were a secret service agent or something. It’s like now what? You know, I’m in the stinky little town, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

No.

Justin:

Those are a few scenarios. Can you think of any other?

Mark:

Well, when you were describing uh unity and uh in kids, I think a summer camp. You know, that that aspect of wow, this is amazing, this is great, I want to do this all the time, and then it’s like that you know, lull.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know.

Justin:

And it’s followed by back to school.

Mark:

Yeah, back to school and back to home. And it’s like that unity, you know, or I think I think there’s uh I think of uh sports seasons like you had mentioned too. You know, you have a you have a big season, you know, or a good season, and it’s like You know, I want that next year too.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

You know, and I think there’s something to be said for, you know, the ability to say, okay, yeah, not every season’s gonna be like that, but celebrating the ones that are.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

You know And so yeah, no, I think you I think you did a great job of hitting a lot of the big ones.

Justin:

Another one that came to mind real quick. Yeah. Because you ‘re thinking of seasons like uh as a kid having to move town.

Mark:

Oh sure.

Justin:

And how maybe it was like I was planning a harvest there. You know, I was planting the seeds and now I’ll never see that harvest. And I feel like that’s another scenario of purpose.

Mark:

And I I’d agree in that context, and I think that’s where, you know, the four that I’d mentioned at the beginning. kind of come into play because I think identity is a is a is a tremendous factor in some of these, especially, you know, when I was the the bigwig.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and I could tell this person to go and do and they did they did. And now it’s like I’m home and my spouse doesn’t listen to me the same way that my

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, employees did. You know, I was like, what’s what’s up with this? But yeah, I agree with what you’re saying each one of those seasons can have a sense of

Justin:

I don’t think you can decouple identity from purpose, right?

Mark:

I agree. Yeah, that’s why I was saying before, you know, it’s like you’re gonna you’re they’re intermingled to a tremendous or interwoven, I guess I should say, in such a way that says, yeah, one one tends to impact the other. And you know, I believe when our identity changes, whether we’re moving, whether we’re going someplace else, it’s it’s kind of difficult to recognize my purpose. Yeah. If I’ve gone from a big fish in a in a small pond to a a small fish in a big pond, you know, that can be a that can be a difficult dynamic and I start to wrestle with Okay, what’s my purpose? And I think the reality of it is is to take that take the fish that you are, that whatever size as you compare yourself and start saying, okay, yeah, there is a meaning. There is there is something to be said for this season. And I and I I and I think, you know the job analogy, I think that’s a that’s just a really common one.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, when we think about Um, you know, the fact that I don’t have a job, you know, that can really impact, especially guys. I th I would dare say so, not that females can’t be, you know, as they you know, wrestle with a security. I think, you know, their desire is for security, so when jobs change, but I think, you know, guys dressle far more with that level of purpose. Because I think our identities are in it. I think, you know, we we tend to see ourselves as the provider, if you will. And you know, if I lose my job or my circumstances change around my job You know, that’s that’s a tremendous hit. And it’s like, okay, yeah. Go ahead.

Justin:

Yeah, I agree. I think I’ve I’ve seen it happen a few times, right, where someone I I don’t know, I respect them either way, but someone I you know I respected in w and they had a good career and all this kind of stuff. And it, you know, it for s whatever reason ended up in a place where they didn’t have that, right? And to see the difference it makes in somebody is Crazy and I experienced it myself as well because there was a period of time where I used to be house painter and then the you know, two thousand and eight kind of triggered this series of events and I ended up not having opportunity to paint houses and So there was a two year gap where I didn’t have an identity in for in the term in form of a job that I would go to. You know, I was doing odds and it and stuff, but um And yeah, just remember experiencing and and yet those that two year period was certainly uh a r a replanting and you know, m my next career started after that which y I’m currently doing, which is amazing. Um but yeah, it’s just seeing that in other guys too where it’s like it not it doesn’t just impact them in a little way. Right? Lack of purpose. Let’s just make this broader and say when you don’t have a sense of purpose, it doesn’t just impact your countenance, right? Like oh I’m not as happy or whatever. It impacts everything, right? Because like I was saying Now it’s like, well why not make mud pies? Why not look at pornography all day? Mm-hmm. Right? What else you know what else is there to do?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know what I mean? It is.

Mark:

Mine could go there.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah And I’ve seen it. I’ve seen it happen, you know? In you know, not just pornography, but just like fall back to these lesser things as like you know, you could be doing in this period where you don’t have a job, you could be learning about a new career. You could be building something, but instead you know, falling back to these things. And just yeah, it’s it’s a it’s crazy how not having that identity in the form of a job, you know, what that brings for in terms of identity completely can impact and affect your purpose to the point where you feel like you have none, even though like again, the argument we’re making is that your purpose doesn’t end with a particular Uh event

Mark:

or exactly. Yeah. The big event doesn’t necessarily completely define you or your total sense of purpose. Because yeah.

Justin:

I I feel like I heard this once you probably did. There’s a difference between a mission and a calling and a appointment. Okay. So an appointment is like a very temporary thing.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And you know, it’s like, okay, I need to like for example, marriage on the rock. You know, you’ve been doing this for many years now, but let’s say this is your appointment is like this season for these next however many weeks. Yep. This is my appointment. This is what I’m I’m doing.

Mark:

Yep

Justin:

But it it’s not necessarily your calling. Your calling is this big picture, right? Like it’s this I’m called to be someone who impacts people in terms of improving, you know, helping them improve in their marriage and family, right? And because of that calling, you’ve taken on some appointments and you’ve taken on some missions, and missions are kind of that middle, like career level type thing. My mission is to do my calling through emergent family therapist through how I see a podcast, through whatever, right?

Mark:

My mission is actually accomplished appointment by appointment. Hmm

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Is that what I’m hearing? I mean that’s

Justin:

I uh sure. In my in my analogy a mission is kind of this b Yes, I think so. Yeah

Mark:

I don’t know. to where it’s like this is my mission but my overall calling. So each each one, in other words To the degree that I see this this vision what was the third one? Vision not vision.

Justin:

Calling.

Mark:

Calling. Yes, thank you. Yeah, that I’ve realized.

Justin:

Which are similar, right? Vision. Yeah. Vision pr usually precedes the calling. Sure.

Mark:

And that’s what I’m saying, to where the calling is made up by these smaller missionary Mission opportunities that I take on. through a series of o appointments. And I think that’s where the daily aspect of fulfilling each and every appointment that I’m given. is part of that m greater mission and therefore my calling.

Justin:

The appointments either build towards your calling or point you to it. Because if you don’t necessarily know what your calling is And again, your calling doesn’t have to be I’m supposed to be a missionary in Africa or whatever. It can be I’m supposed to be the best darn dad and you know, you know, I don’t know, like it

Mark:

No, I I exactly

Justin:

it’s very important to understand that it does not have to be a ministerial type role, which I feel like growing up, to me that’s what calling meant.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right. And I I do believe as believers, um, your calling, you know, is intertwined with with God’s kingdom. Sure. But the way it works itself out does not mean missionary in Africa for everybody. Sometimes it means CEO in multinational corporation. Right. Um but yeah I I I think stra in this co again again, plugging past episodes we talked about um mission statements.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? It’s about writing that d definition of who I want to be and then working that out on a daily basis and with each appointment. But if you don’t have that calling yet, like you’re saying, take those appointments as opportunities to figure to help figure it out, to help iron it out. Like Well, I’m supposed to babysit this kid today, you know. Uh you know, maybe a teenage career.

Mark:

No, I’m just kidding. But I was thinking about it in that context, you know, it’s like I think our tendency and and maybe even in as we get jobs mixed up sometimes they become a priority over family. I think, you know, at times that ability to recognize I do have a mission. you know, in my in my own family.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And yeah, I think sometimes as I’m I’m I’m just thinking of different conversations I had. I don’t think it’s enough to not be like my parents. You follow me? I think we can get caught up in that and say, well, I just don’t want to do it the way they did. But when we think when we take that that role as a parent and say, okay, what do I want my children to become? What do I want them to learn? You know, then that takes on a whole different sense of purpose for me. It’s not just avoiding these things, it’s actually modeling this other lifestyle. Could that’s good that’s completely different than just and I think, you know, so often in our sense of purpose we can get lost. on doing the quote unquote big uh they did the air quotes in the air, you know, the quote unquote big thing.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And I think we lose that sense of No, this is really the bigger thing if I multiply that out over twenty years. You know, where where’s this how what’s this tree gonna look like as opposed to, you know, the weeds that I tend to focus on?

Justin:

And this tree, yes, I’m gonna be held accountable for. Where those weeds, you know, it’s like I didn’t call you to those weeds, you know? Yeah. And I think that that’s a perfect an awesome point in the sense that You know, we talk a lot about finding God’s will in in the Christian community, right?

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Um, but his will is very clear um in a lot of ways. So the minute, you know Your sperm meets an egg.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Your purposes has shifted. You know, well, let’s let’s say you know, meets an egg, but then it’s born. All right, let’s go all the way there.

Mark:

Let’s go ahead and start right there. This is a good thing for our culture to be aware of. When the two meet. That’s right. Yes. Yeah, so think about how those two are meeting. That’s right. Because it’s gonna impact

Justin:

release. You’re you’re you’re potentially entering a new mission field.

Mark:

It was when your eyebrows raised during release that I that started me laughing. It’s like, wow, that’s pretty that’s pretty good. But yes

Justin:

All right. So

Mark:

back to the point. Uh

Justin:

yeah, so I mean the minute you have a child, your calling is made drastically clearer.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Uh if you’re willing to see it. But in terms of you know, the kingdom that’s that’s that is your calling is to be a parent and if you know that needs to be a major part of your mission, right? Yeah. And um Yeah.

Mark:

No, I appreciate that. As far as yes, to where I think we have multiple things. Even and I think even, you know uh how we treat our parents. You know, you think uh when I’m thinking about empty nest, you know, that kind of thing, you know, because I I believe there is something to be said for the way that we treat our parents at the end of their lives, you know. I’m not looking to, you know, sign any guilt or blame or anything for but just

Justin:

pay attention, John and Lizzie.

Mark:

No. No, not that but I’m just thinking about it as my own parents’ age, you know. And it’s like, okay, you know, cause Jesus, you know, talked with people. It’s like, you know, don’t don’t be don’t be getting this wrong. You know. You think you’re you’re you’re doing this big thing by saying, okay, whatever I would have given to you, I’m gonna give to God in the temple. It’s like Jesus basically said, no, no, no, no, no. Take care of your parents. Yeah. You know, that kind of thing. So so yeah, I’m i I r what you what and that just came out of and also

Justin:

children.

Mark:

Oh yeah.

Justin:

The other end of the spectrum he was the same way where the important people are here and now these kids want to interrupt. He said, No, no, no, no.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

He’s very about upending our version of the kingdom and saying, no, no, no. The kingdom is filled with these. Those who have you know, easy faith and and believe, you know, this is what you need to be like, faith like these children. Yeah. And let ’em come, you know

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. So same thing in terms of having a child, like we think, oh this child’s in the way of my purpose. You know, it’s like, no, no, no, no, no.

Mark:

This child is a part of the purpose. Yes. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. So yeah, that’s uh the appreciate the shame. And I and I think, you know, I appreciate what you brought in too from that sense of seasons, you know, and how um we have that ability to be able to say, okay, yeah, empty nest is coming. How how am I preparing for it?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, are we are are we doing the things that basically value our relationship even while we have kids to where, you know, when the house gets quiet, we still know how to have a conversation. Or, you know, just those kind of things that basically Help in that process.

Justin:

Yeah, there’s something to be said for preparing for those next seasons of winter, right? To be able to say, all right, I know I’m gonna retire in two years. What what c work can I start doing right now to figure out what my calling, my purpose is outside of what I specifically go do every day? Yeah. And is there something I can bring with me away from that? Do I have

Mark:

do I have healthy hobbies now?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, that I can just go and because I think so much of it is that adjustment that’s like we’re both home now And we’re used to spending, you know, eight hours at least away from each other. So to come back together, it’s like what do we do with all this time?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I expect you to entertain me while I’m here.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and that’s not Reality. But yes, preparing in advance, I think, are are healthy for for for those seasons.

Justin:

And even if you didn’t prepare in advance and you find yourself in those seasons, hopefully this is a good reminder of You are not what you’re currently doing.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You are much more than that. And you know, y you can be you can Step out of that slum and making mud pies and instead make something real, you know, like had you know adopt your purpose in your current moment. What even if that is you know, looking at that troll child on the floor across from you in the eyes and and connecting with them and saying recognizing like, wait a second, have a moment right here where I can grasp of my purpose just in building speaking in life into this child by just listening or encouraging or teaching or you know?

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Yeah. So, yeah. Go ahead. It’s The circle of influence versus circle of concern. We’ve talked about that in episodes, but Stephen Covey basically says when we spend all of our energy in the circle of concern which is essentially outside of our ability to influence, sure. Then our circle of influence shrinks. So we’re we have less opportunities to do something of you know Up purpose, I guess, I don’t know.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But when you can invert that and say, you know what, I don’t have control over who wins this election, but I do have control over, you know, whether this child in front of me is Learning and growing it right in front of me, I have control over my influence in that.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And you focus on your circle of influence, then it grows. And so I think that’s A big part of in those seasons where you don’t feel your purpose is to look around about right around you in your circle of the things that you can influence and where are you missing opportunities Yeah. Start focusing on those for now.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And let the worries of the big purpose, the big capital P purpose work itself out. Is that fair?

Mark:

That’s fair. Yeah. No, that’s more than fair. So yeah, by all means know that uh I guess that my desire would be, and you said it very well, I just uh Know that your life has purpose. Yeah. Know that your life has meaning and you know be about that process of fulfilling that on a daily basis. And I think we’ll all be surprised.

Justin:

Yeah And if you wanna email us and and give us your scenario of lacking in purpose, we’ll write you back what your purpose is. Just kidding. No, I think that could be interesting to hear about different uh realities people are in in We’d like to hear from you if you want.

Mark:

Well thanks for sharing, Justin.

Justin:

Thank you for sharing.

Mark:

Hey, happy to do so.

Justin:

You know, we like doing this because it’s part of our purpose.

Mark:

Ah, there you go. This is how we see it

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot click Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.