Join Mark and Justin today as the duo explores the value of quietness. Mark begins by describing a serene encounter with a fox on an early morning run, which prompts reflections on introversion, extroversion, and the evolving relationship with solitude. They delve into the peaceful and contemplative aspects of being quiet while acknowledging its challenges, especially for those facing mental health issues. Justin candidly shares his journey from needing approval to finding solace in solitude. Listeners are invited to embrace moments of quietness and introspection, making this episode a thoughtful exploration of the beauty and impact of “quiet” in our lives.


When there’s yeah, there’s pause there when there’s extra noise I didn’t I didn’t hear it’s uh Oh There you go.

There’s the boss Live recorded in Justin’s studio Oh, you even faded that well nicely done That’s how you know we’re live.

Yeah according to mark in front of a live studio audience.

We just missing this studio in the audience Brought to you by technology brought to you like technology.

That’s right.

Yeah That reminds me of a song Yeah Is it a song you can share yeah, okay sure is that from the movie Napoleon Dynamite, okay?

His brother Kip at the end of the movie when the credits were rolling he and his girlfriend get married and he sings a song called I Love technology But not as much as you you see Sleeved on And he sounds just like that is hilarious.

She we would definitely look it up That was that was worse some applause if I had the bottom it’s A Thank you, thank you you’re welcome.

Thank you.

You’re welcome (laughing)


Welcome to how I see it with me, Mark Pratt

and Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations

All right.


She has some awkward silence.

Yeah, that’s why I was I was thinking about there for just a moment What is it about that?

What is it about if we’re thinking about it from the aspect of the word quiet?

What is it about?

I’m getting I’m getting right.

You know what?

You know what came to mind though, Justin We were having a discussion, of course, about the topics.


And I’m wrestling with this ability to have fun because I think it is important.

And yeah, I find myself going, “Shoo!

” right into the deep water and saying, “Okay, what is it about this word?

” But let’s add a little levity.

~ Do you think of a time when you created a certain level of awkward silence?

And you can, can you remember the last time it was– – Intentionally or accidentally?

~ Either one.

It could be a moment where you just had a faux pas and it was like the room was just quiet because nobody quite knew what to do.

-You’re doing a good job creating quiet.

-You’re welcome.

I’m just trying to demonstrate awkward silence.

-What makes that awkward?

-Yes, that’s a good question.

Are we going there?

Do you want me to?

-Oh, no, no.

I’m still here.

I want to still hear the.



~ I can think of a few jokes I’ve told that just kind of fell flat.

~ Okay.

~ And that’s probably– – Like in a professional setting or like CR or family or– – Family maybe or CR.

~ Okay, yeah.

~ Yeah, probably that.

~ Yeah, something where you thought something was gonna be funnier than it was.

~ Or it’s around someone knew you don’t know that well and they don’t know you’re joking.

And then it’s like, “Ha ha ha, I’m just kidding.

” – Yeah.

(laughs) – After awkward silence.

~ Yeah.

~ Sometimes we lead a small group, sometimes I’ll force awkward silence.

~ Okay.

~ And I’ll just tell them, like, “We’re gonna have some awkward silence “until someone talks.

” – Oh wow.

~ That’s fun.

~ Yeah.

~ Yeah.

We usually don’t have that though, people talk, but.

~ Yeah.

~ No, and I think quite often it is around those moments where we say something, thinking we know something, like, oh, you’re expecting.

And suddenly that person is not expecting.

~ I’m not.

(laughs) – That’s awkward.

~ That would be awkward.

But yes, things like that where we say something and it just isn’t received for, yeah.

~ Yeah.

always awkward.

~ So when I say the word quiet, what comes to mind to for you?

~ Drinking my coffee.

You know, that’s not untrue.

Quiet, I think of morning and contemplative and quiet.

Yeah, quiet.

~ Yeah.

~ And peaceful and drinking my coffee.

~ Yeah.

It seems like a good list.

~ Yeah.

~ How about you?

~ For quiet?

~ Yeah.

~ Yeah, definitely the morning comes to mind.

When I think about having a, if you will, a quiet spirit, I think having some quiet time, that kind of thing, quiet time, kabucha, that kind of thing, where we’re intentional about creating.

You got any more of that in stock yet?

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.


I’m going to change you charging the listening listener audience.

What did you got?

If you come to my house for breakfast, you can likely have some for free.

How’s that sound?

Well, all right.


But his breakfast is at 530 folks.

So just keep that in.

I am.

Yeah, but it was interesting.

It was part of part of the fun.

Oh, go ahead.

Oh, go ahead.



It was fine because yesterday morning, it was kind of going through my mind.

It was out with the F3 guys and there was a group that had ran ahead and there was a group that was kind of behind and I was kind of in the middle.

I wasn’t ahead and I wasn’t behind.

And I was by myself.

and running through, you know, sound sport.

And I saw two foxes.

And it’s like, I was saying to myself, you know what, Mark, we rarely see foxes.

You know, I mean, not that they’re not here, not that they’re not around that kind of thing.

But I was thinking about it in the aspect that I was just by myself running.

And it’s not like I was huffing or puffing too much.

And there was another guys around, ’cause I think about it, you know, there are guys who will joke about, you know, It’s like they’re mouth powered because, you know, the harder they have to work, the more they’re, you know, they talk.


And I was thinking about it in that context and it just reminded me of, you know, the things we miss out on, I guess, when we’re not able to be quiet.

Yeah, you could even go so far as to change, not quiet, but the opposite of being quiet is being output, right?

So like when we’re outputting, so like even in that example of working out, however, you’re just exerting, you’re pushing, or whatever it’s all output.

And so I think it can be easy to miss input, you know, and whereas, you know, quiet gives you an opportunity to embrace input, right?

~ Yeah.

~ Which, yeah, just be quiet.

So I can explain this to you, right?

~ Sure.

~ Yeah, yeah.

I also thought of another thing when it comes to silence.


They’re quiet.

This is more of a humorous one.

That’s OK.

Unless you’re in this situation.

It’s not funny at all.

But we know some friends who they have some very young ones.

And some of their young ones, when it’s quiet, they’re just playing nicely.

Other ones, when it’s quiet, they know there’s some trouble brewing.

You barely go to check.

That’s right.


So quiet can mean sneaky danger.

Yeah, yeah, something’s about to happen.

That’s right, something’s afoot.



That made me think of that.

Yeah, no, because it’s quiet.

At that point, yeah.


And I think at times, we can have, even as a culture, we can have that same feeling, but yet, there’s no sneakiness going on.

You follow me?

It’s like, oh, it’s quiet here.

I’ve got to turn something on.

I’ve got to listen to this.

I’ll put a podcast in.

You know, that was a joke too.

~ Please do.

(laughs) – Just turn it down, so it’s kind of quiet.

~ But is it quiet at that?

~ No, I have just– – Still input, still input.

~ Still input.

~ But quiet input.

~ So that being said, what is it about quiet, do you think, or silence that tends to make us, Well, not, and they make everyone.

I think there are, you know, I think different people have grown accustomed to or have habits that they kind of embrace quiet.

I’m not saying that for everyone.

But what is it about, you think about it in even a church dynamic.

Let’s go there.

You know, it’s like worship time, you know, I think in, well, not just church, but a lot of entities work really hard to avoid silence.

So what is it about that, Justin, from your perspective?

~ Well, I think probably the easiest answer would be attempting to not lose their focus, lose audience focus or attention.

So I think, ’cause I can think of, I’ve been doing music and worship for a long time.

~ Yeah, that’s a great question.

~ And I’m also preached, right?

~ Sure.

~ In both cases, if there’s a gap, that’s not, here’s the key.

If there’s a gap that’s not intentional, then you can see shifting, you can see, focus start to drift.

And so the goal I think is to maintain focus.

So I think that’s probably the most practical and easy answer.

But also I think it’s difficult for us up on a stage to live in awkwardness, right?

Well, I think it’s hard for anyone.

It’s hard for the audience to be like, “What’s happening?

“What are they doing?

“Why is it quiet?

” It’s like you just have to get uncomfortable.

And I do think that’s part of the squirming and losing focus is like, – It happened.

~ Discomfort, yeah.

~ Yeah.

~ And I did throw in the word unintentional because I think some churches and some environments are good at creating intentional silence.

You know what I mean?

~ Sure.

~ For the purpose of meditation, right?

~ Sure.

~ And I think in that case, when everyone’s agreed, okay, this is what we’re doing.

We understand what this is.

It’s not awkward.

It’s like it can become acceptable.

And that doesn’t mean you won’t lose their focus, but at least you lose some of the squirming.

~ Sure.

~ That’s my, a few of my thoughts.

What do you think?

~ No, I was thinking about it in the aspect of the terminology dramatic pause.

You know, it’s like sometimes that’s a calculated thing where you’re actually asking people to be quiet, but typically when I think of it in a dramatic pause where you’re actually in that moment asking for or creating that opportunity for an intentional reflection.

And I think that’s a little different ’cause well, I think it’s a lead quietness.

~ It is, yeah, and everyone, rather than wondering what’s happening, they’re going crap, what did I miss?

They rewind a little bit.

And then they understand.

~ Or they’re actually right with you and then they’re starting to think about that thing you asked them to think about.

But yet it’s a setting where it’s not so reciprocal, the communication isn’t so reciprocal, and you’re just asking them to reflect on that for the sake of moving forward.

So yeah, but I think in some cases too, and I appreciate that insight as far as maintaining an attention and others can lose focus.

And I think at the same time, the constant noise can also cause us to lose focus or, I shouldn’t say that for me.

I think other people, I think have the ability to, like listen to something on a radio and still completely focus on what they’re doing or have a TV playing and focus on a task.

But you know, I would say at times, I think it is a led distraction.

And I guess part of another thing, when I have conversations with people, quite often there’s a point in someone’s life where they just have experienced a hurt or something and they have been on this quest ever since to keep themselves busy or to have something going, you know, to have this level of noise so that I don’t have to necessarily endure that awkward silence because I am uncomfortable with it.

~ Yeah, and I think that, yeah, you’re getting into some other territory, but I think that can deal with trauma and I think that’s what you’re saying, right?

But where people, the silence reminds.

~ Sure.

~ And, you know, like I was saying, in silence people can lose their focus.

Well, for some people in the case of silence, it always redirects their focus to, you know, that trauma potentially, right?

where it’s like, I don’t want that because I naturally gravitate towards that trauma.

Or some people worry or doubt or some negative patterns, but yeah, I could see that for sure.

~ Yeah, and I think in a lot of cases that can even drive kind of our culture, if you will, towards this tendency to be uncomfortable, you know, with quietness in a sense that’s deeper than just the fact that, you know, I’ve lost my focus for a moment or I’ve lost your attention for a moment, you know, because I’ve allowed this quietness.

And I guess that’s where it kind of came to mind as far as how we talk about how what is that, what do we do or because I mentioned it earlier, you know, some people are and And I think it is that continuum dynamic where some people aren’t as uncomfortable and yet they can get to the point where that’s all they want.

So if you’re humming and you’re just being joyful, you’re interrupting their world.



So it’s the other side of that.


For sure.

And on the other end, there is that inability to have, and I guess that’s what I bring it out there is that ability of, okay, do I need to learn to implement a little more quiet in my life and just kind of have this opportunity for reflection or am I at a point where, yeah, I’m starting to head towards that isolation end of things and I need to be able to, you know, have some interactions and discussions and that kind of thing.

Yeah, I see the wheels turning from over here.

So that’s why I was right.

Um, well, one thing that I was thinking about is quiet is often synonymous with listening, right?

And you know, we, we did an episode on listening and I think it was a pretty good one.

I encourage you go listen to it.

Uh, go listen to listening, uh, and then be quiet after that.

But no, I would say we talked pretty in depth about the value of listening, which, again, is input over output.

And I think our tendency, generally speaking, I would say our natural tendency is output.

Listen to me, watch me see what I’m doing when I think it’s healthy to have opportunities and dedicated time for input and understanding of the value of switching the input mode.


And I think quiet is a natural switch for that, right?

Like it can be.

It can be, yeah.

But not all people and like we talked about there’s maybe some trauma situation and like you know it’s not always the truth.

I think anyone can probably work to get there maybe through meditation, you know through various practices or counseling.

If, if, if, if quiet is traumatic for you, and we could work through it with counseling, but, um, I mean, you know, maybe there’s people out there that’s never going to be a good thing.

I’m not saying, yeah, whatever, but for most people, quiet is a good, you know, signal for listening.


Can be.

I don’t think that you’ve seen the foxes, right?

Like it was quiet.


And that was a signal to listen, pay attention and by listening, you know, watching, you know, listening to your environment, taking it in, and you saw them, you know, and you probably wouldn’t if you were yapping with the yappers or, you know, upfront with the, you know.

And I think that’s, that’s where I come from is that ability to say, okay, if I, if I, if this is the first time I’ve experienced that in quietness tended to create that, my tendency is to think about it’s like, okay, how many other things am I missing?

Yeah, in that sense of quietness and my ability to have it and I think you know in that moment there’s Often a number of things that will miss out on just if we’re having to have a certain level of noise or output around us Yeah Yeah, I think you’re naturally Kind of desire maybe desire quiet is that true?

I don’t know see seems like this is a I Don’t I just imagine you in that running state and really embracing that Or getting up super early.

I mean I think that’s a big part of it for you.

It’s a lot of quiet opportunities.

Yeah Do you think that’s true for you like you embrace quiet?

I do probably embrace quiet.


Yeah And as you say that, ’cause like I say, I put it out there and that continuum.

I’m not saying I’m balanced by any means.

And yeah, it is probably to the point of, I don’t necessarily desire more interaction, more output, you know what I’m saying?

So, and that, yeah, ’cause I think it is a person, I think it’s a personal dynamic to each and every person, and that’s where, you know, we talk about it from an aspect of, okay, you know, because I think another dynamic for me was when I was doing community mental health, and I think I might have mentioned this, you know, and it’s like the level of noise in certain households, you know, just made it chaotic.

~ Yeah, and I couldn’t do so.

~ Yeah, and it’s like you had to actually, you know, kind of pull your client away and kind of create that because in that chaotic environment, there was so much noise.

Like you’re saying, it was hard to have a focus because there was so much noise and so such a variety of voices, it made it difficult to focus.

And I think that’s where probably for me, I embrace quiet a little more because for me, that’s what I need in order to really focus.

I’m not a person who can do a number of things at the same time or listen to something and still write.

~ Yeah, same, yeah.

~ But, yeah, I’m not a multitasker.

Although I’ve had to learn how to do it better.

But, you know, I think you and I both agree that multitasking is the devil.

(laughing) – It’s definitely overrated.

~ It’s overrated, yeah.

For me sometimes it feels like a devil, but that’s silly.

Yeah, essentially I’m really bad at doing more than one thing at a time.

Yeah, the thing is with noise is sometimes, and especially for some people, like, you know, their studies about, you know, and you probably know this better.

And I do ADHD, ADD, ADD, where some inputs can actually enhance focus, right?

So playing music super loud or certain things like that can actually kind of remove the natural impetus in their brain to like to squirrel.

You know, like what’s that?

What’s that?

It kind of takes that secondary thing that wants to pull their attention and kind of takes the attention of it, right?

And so now their primary focus can kind of stay somewhere.

And I think that’s kind of cool.

And that’s unique, you know, we’re all unique.

And I think that’s cool.

We’re quiet for them, you know, for, I think people at ADD and ADHD is actually like seriously an enemy.

~ No doubt.

~ It becomes loud.

~ Yes.

~ Very much so.

~ Yeah.

~ Yeah.

That’s a great point.

~ Yeah.

~ It’s kinda interesting.

~ And I think it’s interesting too, in a lot of those cases, you know, the ability, and it’s not always sound, you know, sometimes the ability to do something physical, like a spinner or something that is occupying my body, offers that, you know?

~ Or both.

~ It’s entertaining my brain enough to kind of take this part of the band over here, and that allows me to be able to focus, I think.

~ Take the children in the back and let them play, and we’ll get some work done over here, basically.

That’s the way I was thinking, and with that child themselves, you know, when I was thinking bandwidth, as far as the ability to, once that static is kind of dealt with, then I’m left with this part that’s able to focus without all the static there.

~ Yeah.

~ Yeah.

~ So yeah.

~ Yeah, it’s interesting.


~ You were thinking on interesting.

(laughs) I was thinking we didn’t have quiet and see.

And then, oh, here’s why.

Intentional and quiet, where we ask, basically that way we can get paid to do nothing.

~ Oh.

~ That’s scary.

We don’t get paid folks.

No, an opportunity to be quiet.

And then I would love if the listeners would write in what it triggered, what thoughts.

You know what I mean?

~ I do, I do.

~ All right, can we do it?

~ Sure.

Do we count down?

I was thinking, but I was just being quiet.

Okay, three, two, one.

Wait, you pointed at me for?

I was waiting for you.

I was going to make time.

It was your study, so I figured I’d let you decide what was long enough.


I think that was good.

What do you guys think?

Is that good enough?

Do you need more time?

I think that was good.

I’m struck by how awkward it felt for me, but Mark was just, he was comfortable.

He should have seen him.

He was like in his Zen pose, like, “Oh.

” Not quite, but I think he’s pretty close.

You definitely looked very comfortable.

Well, I was.



So that would be interesting because it would be interesting to have that input, you know, to be able to recognize, okay, what is it about quiet?

Because I, yeah, I think.


Well, there’s a feature on Spotify.

If you listen through Spotify or we can ask questions in the episode itself, like in, if you go to the episode page on Spotify and you can actually answer questions that we put in there.

If I remember, I’m gonna put that question in there about during that period of quiet, what came to mind?

‘Cause I’d love to get people’s thoughts.

And if you’re not on Spotify, you can write us at howicia.

click or find us at church or Facebook, Instagram.

~ Frisbee.

~ Frisbee.

~ Afteries.

~ That’s the new social media.

~ Frisbee.

~ Yeah.

~ Yes, any of the above we’d love to hear from you and it’d be kind of fun.

~ Yeah.

~ But yeah, I definitely back to Mark is very comfortable and quiet, it would seem.

And I think that ties well into different personality types.

~ Sure, no doubt.

~ Some personality types are naturally maybe introverted even in quiet is a refueling type thing.

~ Sure, yup.

where extroverted and even easy get on the continuum to extreme extroversion, noises refueling, right?

Like kind of that, the motion and the buzz, that’s refueling.

And, you know, that’s a pretty known thing that for someone as an introvert, you know, a party is going to drain them pretty quickly.

And an extrovert is going to fill them right up.

And I have, yeah, has everything to do with quiet, I think.

You think I was thinking I had everything to do with people.

people when I think of an introvert extrovert, not that people don’t come with a certain level of noise.

Well, I’m curious.

But is it the people or is it the quiet and that people aren’t, you know, it’s, they’re synonymous?

Well, I think I, when I’m thinking introvert, yeah, I am thinking that person doesn’t necessarily like to be around other people because it’s a draining.

And I think the emotions and the conversation and that kind of thing.

And I’m hearing that part of you that can lean towards quiet.

I’ve heard the introverts, you know, like when reading about the difference, they like quiet time with their spouse on a couch.


They don’t like when their spouse drags them to a party.


And that’s why I’m saying it comes back to people.


And I’m saying it’s synonymous because people means not quiet.

But if the people are quiet, like I bet introverts love the library.

~ I hear where you’re coming from.

~ Are you gonna divert right in and let us know?

(laughing) No, but you get what I’m saying?

Like I do wonder if it’s the people or if it really is the noise, the output.

~ Sure.

~ And the, I guess the stimulus, the input stimulus of people.

~ That’s great, I’m picturing that.

Hey, I would still see this, this is my perspective on it.

if an introvert, this is like, if a tree falls in the woods, does it still make noise?

But I was thinking about an introvert at a busy library where there’s just people all around you kind of in your space.

You know, that kind of maybe still quiet.

~ I gotcha.

~ But it would be interesting, yeah.

~ Yeah, I could see how, yeah, I could see how the, like the bustle could be.

~ And granted, that’s not necessarily most of the communication either at that point, like I shared.

But yeah, it would be interesting.


Maybe it’s not, uh, you know, the loudness or the people, but stimulus generally.


So no, I hear where you’re coming from.


At that point, right.

Maybe they wouldn’t want the TV, you know, even off, but on, you know, volume off, but on because that’s like kind of a distract.

You know, I’m curious now.


It would be interesting to do a study on that.

Or there’s a good chance.

I’m sure there already is, but yes.


That’s fascinating.

No doubt.


So what points you as far as the continuum, right?

On my right is extrovert or on my left is introvert, extreme introvert and never wants to go out, hermit.


You know, whatever is, you know, can’t doesn’t go home.


Like they just have one already doing another.



Where would you put yourself?

Oh, wow.

Now, see, I’ll admit I’ve probably changed over time.

I was definitely more extroverted, you know, even even having been referred to kind of that life of the party type person, you know, that just, yeah.

I don’t know that, Mark.


Well, don’t get me wrong.

I’ve the party always starts when you get here, but I don’t know about that.

But yeah, I would definitely say, and here’s, this is the other part of it, you know?

I think so often for me, you know, I would definitely be a person who, when I come home, I’ll shut stuff off, you know, if a TV’s on or, you know, and nobody’s really there, you know, or radio.

I’ll start shutting it down, you know, because I think part of that is a process of my day When I was in construction, it was noise and that kind of thing.

I just was tired of the noise by the end of the day.

And then, you know, sometimes it’s about wanting to not have to listen.

You know, it’s not that it’s a thing, but you know, it’s carved as far as the ability to have some just quiet, you know, not that I don’t want to talk with Chris either when I came home, you know, conversationally, but yet there is something to be said for just being able to say, okay, gonna have a little quiet.

And I think about that in the context of introvert, extrovert.

And I am probably, I still enjoy this.

That’s the thing.

I still enjoy being around people.


And I would definitely say, you know, being around people gives me energy.

OK, it doesn’t, it doesn’t tap me.

And yet I’ll admit if I’m around people all the time, yeah, you know, then I still desire to kind of say, okay, nope, I do need to do that.

And that’s probably where my mornings, you know, starting off my morning’s quiet.

So I would probably say I’ve shifted maybe more towards introverted.

I know I was thinking about the other day, I don’t tell stories quite like I used to.

You know, that was, that was a thing, you know, that I would, you know, entertain people or, you know, by telling the stories, you know, and yeah.

And I think part of that’s part of that’s my job now too.

It’s not like I can tell every story that I come across.

But yet I’m still telling you about the foxes on the other morning.

So, I mean, so yeah, I’m long story short, long story long.

I would say in the middle closer to extrovert.

~ Gotcha.

~ Definitely I.



~ So maybe bouncing across that middle line.

~ Yeah.

~ Depending on the day.

Yeah, depending on the stimulus, like you were saying, you know, because if there’s enough stimulus, then it’s like, I’m okay leaning towards that, introverted, or although I probably say more so isolated where I’m just kind of intentionally recharging with quiet.





I think similar but different.

So similar in the sense that I’ve shifted a lot, as I’ve gotten older, I would say when I was younger, I would definitely put myself in the extrovert category.

~ Who’d have thought it’s not like we don’t have a podcast or something, or we’re putting no, I just get it.

~ It’s true, it’s true, yeah, that’s interesting.

But it’s not the same, ’cause it’s not like we’re getting all the input.

~ No, I agree.

~ This is more, well I guess that’s, I don’t know, not yet.

~ Go ahead, go ahead, I did not.

~ Anyway, I think mine ties pretty well into my ongoing issue with approval addiction that I’m talking about.

It’s just like wanting approval and you can’t get approval in quiet and on your own in isolation, right?

So it’d be about seeking out environments, most conducive to gaining approval.

So, you know, one of those elements, kind of like what you were saying about being the life of the party, I don’t know if I would say I was, I would not say I was that guy, but like you, I could be winsome, you know, humor or whatever and have good conversations and try and, you know, give people a laugh or whatever.

And so that was something, I would definitely say as I’ve gotten older, shifted to more, I definitely vacillate between, I need that filling up being around people to going, “Okay, I need space.

” Yeah.

Kind of like what you were saying.

I think they both bring the energy.


And truthfully, I work from home.

Yeah, I was thinking about that for you too.



And I’m here.


I’m in the studio.


By myself.

in a room by myself.

Obviously, I have some input from through chat and through those things that work, but it’s, yeah.

So I would say that you can’t ignore that.

And I would also say that was one of my biggest fears before working from home, like before I really knew how to do it, then I’ve been doing it for, I don’t know, 12 years, 13 years.

was like, is it going to be miserable all by myself and, you know, and having that social engagement and stimulus or whatever.

And that was like a real concern.

And I would say, it wasn’t like that at all.

I think there’s something about the quiet that allows you to focus and when you can focus, you can do the work.

And if you like the work, that’s a good thing.

Oh, sure.

~ Oh sure.

~ Makes sense.

~ Oh yeah, pretty much so.

~ And I do, so, so yeah, I do think that’s a, I don’t think you can take that away from, I think that’s part of my equation, right?

The fact that I’m isolated, you know, 90% of the time or whatever, whatever that percentage, I mean, that’s probably pretty high percentage if you count every work day, right?

~ Yeah.

~ And sleeping.

Yeah, so I might be more introverted than I would think, but which is little doses of let’s go to CR, let’s go to church, whatever.

~ Yeah, as a percentage, you might actually spend far more time isolated.

~ Yeah.

~ Not that you’re necessarily an introvert at that point, but yeah.

~ Yeah, yeah.

I mean, again, I think the easiest identifier for, which one you are, which one brings you energy?

~ I agree.

~ Would you say, yeah.

~ Oh yeah.

~ Or drains you, and I think they both can.

Especially when I’m struggling more towards close to depression or in depression.

Well, no, even then, some days, the silences beats me up, right?


And getting out is, can bring in some levity.

Oh, sure.

And at other times, it’s like, I don’t want to be around people at all.

Is it the silences beats you up or the thoughts that come in the silence?

The latter, right?


Yeah, yeah, a ladder for sure.

That’s kind of backed what you’re saying about silence can be bad for some people.

I mean, if you struggle with depression, that definitely can be a trigger, right.

And I think that’s where, you know, like you said, you know, even with trauma, learning how to, you know, focus that quietness even to where, you know, because here again, well, what came to mind for me?

I’m not necessarily creating analogy.

but I mean, in that sense, what came to mind for me was that person with ADD, you know, because it can, it takes that ability to learn how I can refocus even in the quietness.

And I think it takes quietness at times to be able to learn to be comfortable with it in that process.

You know, it’s a learning, it’s not that I can’t, but it can be difficult to learn how to challenge those thoughts that come.

And I think, you know, when we are able to, the quietness isn’t such a formidable or, you know, dangerous thing.

So yeah.

~ Yeah, in that, yeah, I agree with that.

I think like some extreme mental health situations kind of throw the rules out, right?

~ Sure.

It gets a little hard to say, “We’ll just do that or do that.

” Because it’s a more of an extreme situation, you have to treat it differently.

And I feel that way about, I value silence, I value quiet time, I value being in this office by myself in isolation.

I think it is refueling for the most part.

But like I said, when I’m struggling with depression, sometimes that can be, yeah, it can be oppressive or daunting.

~ Yeah, yeah, but again, it’s not like I want the opposite.

I want to go to a party.

~ Sure.

~ You know, it’s like, yeah.

So that’s what I mean by it’s kind of an extreme situation that doesn’t have perfect resolutions.

~ Exactly.

~ Yeah, which is always a struggle.

~ But unfortunately, that’s what we hear from people is, well, just doing this.

~ Solutions that work in maybe less extreme situations are expected to work all the way up the chain.

~ Sure.

~ To every level of extremity.

And, you know, I think you found probably in other mental health situations that the robot kind of, it’s not as useful in the extremes.

~ Oh sure.

~ Yeah.

~ It’s more about, let’s get through this time.

~ And I think it’s also a personal dynamic so often.

because I think what may work for someone may not work for another individual, just based on who they are or what that thing means.

But yeah.

~ Yeah, yeah, I was just thinking back to the approval thing, like quiet, silence, isolation, all of those things were oppressive to me in the same sense that someone who’s, it’s been a little too long since they had a hit of their drug, right?

like they start to Jones and twitch a little bit.

It was very much like that for me.

Like I needed to hear, “You’re okay again,” or, “You matter,” or, “You know, you’re funny,” or whatever.

~ Or whatever you’re here.

~ Yeah, whatever it was.

Like not the words that we’re glad you’re here, but proof of that, right?

Like to laughter through whatever, you know?

And for me, that was, I would say, a big part about refueling was it wasn’t really fuel as much as an addiction and like needing that hit again.

~ Sure.

~ To feel okay, you know?

part of getting older and maturing and going through recovery and all these things is arriving and being able to arrive at a place where I recognize what that for what it is.

It is an addiction.

That needing that hit of approval is not healthy and learning how to re-align some of those things.

It’s kind of like food addiction where you can’t stop eating.

That’s not the solution.

It’s not like a drug addiction where you should stop doing that.

Well, with food you got to eat so you got to re-learn the tools like for how to eat properly and sometimes you fail at it and you eat badly and you just try and get back.

That’s very much for me kind of like the with approval.


It’s an ongoing effort to stay healthy.


And so part of that is I think learning to be comfortable with quiet and silence and isolation and also being able to embrace that.

And I think that’s what shifted me towards that introverted side.

You know?

~ Yeah.

Appreciate you sharing on that.

~ Yeah.

So yeah, as you go forward, feel free to let us know what came to mind when you thought about that, that in that moment of silence that we had, feel free to let us know what came to mind for you.

And yeah, know that we appreciate the interaction when it’s given that opportunity.

So yeah, that being said, thanks for sharing Justin.

This is how we see it.


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