In this episode, we discuss the topic of quitting. We explore the stigma associated with quitting, and how and why it is sometimes necessary. We share personal experiences with quitting, and how we have learned to recognize when it is time to move on. We discuss the importance of knowing when a season is over, and how to gracefully transition into a new season.
Transcript
Justin
We’re back.
Mark
We’re back.
Justin
We’re back.
Mark
It’s good to see ya.
Justin
It’s good to see you, Mark.
Mark
Glad you had a nostalgic getaway.
Justin
Yes, that’s that’s true. That’s exactly what it was. We uh speaking to clarify for the listener
Justin
We for 4th of July we went up to well
Justin
Not just for 4th of July but for a couple weeks actually we went up to Minnesota
Mark
Yeah. Minnesota. Minnesota.
Justin
Which is where Minnesota where I’m from
Mark
order I learned from got to see some sites from my childhood.
Justin
Got to see some sites from my childhood and nice and Megan’s and yeah
Mark
Nice. Yeah.
Justin
It was a good time. Yeah, really good time spent it with our family and some friends and yeah
Mark
I’ve been with our family and some friends and yeah, see some all
Justin
Got to see some old friends and some old sites. Nice. Yes
Mark
friends and some all sites. Nice. Yes.
Justin
Yeah, that’s a that’s a neat thing. I know I know when when we go back sometimes my kids get tired of me saying
Mark
Yeah. Yeah, that’s a that’s a neat thing. I know I know when when we go back, sometimes my kids get tired of me saying
Justin
Because we’ve gone back so many times. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah
Mark
that’s where I went to school and that you know, because we’ve gone back so many times because family.
Justin
This is the first time you’ve been able to take your kids back to be able to see some of the season.
Mark
But this is the first time you’ve been able to take your kids back to be able to see some of those.
Justin
Well, maybe in five years or so.
Mark
Oh, okay. Got you.
Justin
Gotcha.
Mark
We didn’t necessarily go to all the things either.
Justin
When we went last time, maybe Mia would have remembered some of the stuff. We didn’t necessarily go to all the things either. Last time we were there, it was for Christmas.
Mark
And it was a lot of time we were there for Christmas. Oh, sure.
Justin
More snow in that kind of thing.
Mark
Yeah. Different, different.
Justin
Different. Different.
Mark
Yeah.
Justin
Yeah.
Mark
Completely different environment at that point from July 4th to
Justin
Different. That’s right. That’s right.
Mark
Christmas time.
Justin
Just speaking of different environment, I went and saw my childhood home and the trees
Mark
Yes. Yeah. Oh, really?
Justin
just transformed.
Mark
That’s not the same place.
Justin
It’s like, that’s not the same place. It can’t be.
Mark
Wow.
Justin
And it really is.
Mark
Yeah, it just looks so different with all the mature trees around.
Justin
But yeah, it just looks so different with all the mature trees around when I remember,
Mark
I bet. Yeah. Yeah.
Justin
you know, they weren’t mature trees.
Mark
Yeah. How old are you just in?
Justin
That’s how old I am, you know, I’m a mature tree myself. I’m sure. I mean, that’s right. All of them. Yes. Yeah. And you too. You got to go see. So you’re stomping grounds. But yeah, yeah. Good.
Mark
I’m a mature tree now. How many fingers do you hold up for that? You put them all up now. Yeah. Well, neat. I’m glad you had a good time. Yeah. You had to go see some here here. Yeah, yeah. We had the wedding. Yeah. But like you say, we got Pennsylvania not quite up
Justin
Yeah, it’s quite up to our home.
Mark
to our home, as I think if Chris and I, but yeah, it was good.
Justin
Yeah, New York being…
Mark
Yeah, that’s where Chris and I established our home
Justin
Yeah, that’s where Chris and I established our residence in Solventy, New York.
Mark
as in Southern Tier New York.
Justin
Yeah, yeah, it’s part of our trip. We went inside the Lake Superior,
Mark
So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s part of our trip doing it. I’m not a Lake Superior, which is always cool.
Justin
which is always cool. When you go to up to New York,
Mark
Yeah. When you go to up to New York, do you see Lake Huron here?
Justin
New York, do you see like here on? No.
Mark
No. Well, my brother is actually south of Erie, so I’ll see, you know, like Erie, that kind
Justin
My brother is actually south of Erie, so I’ll see you. You’ve been there then? Yeah, yeah, they’re always fun to see. I feel like
Mark
of thing. You’ve been there then? Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
Justin
Yeah, there’s islands you think of them got you
Mark
I was fine to see. Yep. Yeah, I forget the little aisle that’s there. I think a little plasky, but that’s, no either way. Yeah. It’s a P name and then I was thinking of Michigan.
Justin
Yeah, there’s a cool island in like Michigan, right? Yeah
Mark
~ Yeah, it’s a cool, like, Michigan.
Justin
Yeah.
Mark
~ Yeah, it has its own little rocks.
Justin
Yeah, it has its own little rocks.
Mark
What are the little rocks?
Justin
What are the little rocks? Oh.
Mark
They have a little shimmer to them.
Justin
Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh.
Mark
But they’re only in that area.
Justin
Oh. I don’t know. But Linda knows she’s probably shouting it right now.
Mark
~ Yeah, she’s probably shot. (laughing)
Justin
Sorry, Linda.
Mark
~ Charlie and Linda, you’ve become our placeholder
Justin
You’ve become our placeholder for any listener.
Mark
for any listeners.
Justin
Yeah.
Mark
~ Yeah, any place where we can’t think of the word.
Justin
But– All right.
Mark
Yeah.
Justin
We figure you’re shouting it on the other end.
Mark
That’s right. That’s right.
Justin
That’s right. {LAUGHTER}
Mark
I didn’t know if my kids would be that impressive Lake Superior because ocean, right?
Justin
Oh, yeah. I didn’t know if my kids would be that impressed with Lake Superior because ocean, right?
Mark
Sure.
Justin
They were pretty blown away that they couldn’t see across it.
Mark
They were pretty blown away that they couldn’t see across it.
Justin
Yeah.
Mark
Yeah.
Justin
So that’s cool.
Mark
That’s cool.
Justin
It really is an impressive thing.
Mark
Yeah. Really is an impressive thing.
Justin
Yeah.
Mark
Yeah.
Justin
Anyway, so what topic are we discussing today?
Mark
Anyway. Yes. So what topic are we discussing today?
Justin
Well, you brought it to the forefront, so I figured I’ll let you introduce it if you’d
Mark
Well you brought it to the forefront, so I figured I’ll let you introduce it if you’d like.
Justin
like to.
Mark
~ Sure, so we’re gonna talk about quitting.
Justin
All right, sure. So we’re going to talk about quitting.
Mark
~ Mm. – And why are we talking about quitting?
Justin
And why are we talking about quitting?
Mark
Well, I think quitting can be a polarizing topic.
Justin
I think quitting can be a polarizing topic in the sense that
Mark
~ Sure can.
Justin
Quitting is generally looked at as being bad, you know
Mark
Quitting is generally looked at as being bad. And I think, in any case it is, right?
Justin
And I think you know in many cases it is right the reason it’s polarizing is because
Mark
The reason it’s polarizing is because
Justin
Sometimes you got to quit, you know, so I think we’re gonna talk about
Mark
Sometimes you got to quit. So I think we’re going to talk about when it makes sense
Justin
you know when it makes sense and in
Mark
and what that stigma looks like and why there’s a stigma.
Justin
What that stigma looks like and why there’s a stigma and Yeah, I’m just kind of, yeah, kind of exploring that idea of quitting.
Mark
Yeah, I’m just kind of, yeah. Yeah. Exploring that idea of quitting.
Justin
When it makes sense, are there times when it doesn’t make sense?
Mark
When it makes sense, are there times when it doesn’t make sense?
Justin
Quitting?
Mark
Quitting?
Justin
Yeah.
Mark
Yeah.
Justin
Well, sure.
Mark
Well, sure.
Justin
I mean, I think, again, that’s kind of the common, I would say the common prevailing
Mark
I mean, I think, again, that’s kind of the common– I would say the common prevailing with them is that you don’t quit.
Justin
wisdom is that you don’t quit.
Mark
You can quit, you can stick to it.
Justin
You just don’t quit. You stick to it. I would agree with a lot of that, right?
Mark
I would agree with a lot of that, right?
Justin
that you need to have some stick-tutiveness, right?
Mark
That you need to have some bit-tuitiveness. There you go.
Justin
~ Oh. – And be able to stick it through difficult things,
Mark
And be able to stick through difficult things, push through, do hard things, not quit when
Justin
push through, do hard things, not quit when going gets tough, that kind of thing.
Mark
going gets tough, that kind of thing.
Justin
~ Sure.
Mark
Sure.
Justin
~ I think that’s very important.
Mark
I think that’s very important to me.
Justin
I think you would probably agree, right?
Mark
You would probably agree, right? Yeah, so what comes on mind for you?
Justin
~ Yeah, so what comes on mind for you?
Mark
What specific eras or times do you think of for you specifically
Justin
What specific eras or times do you think of for you specifically when you think when quitting comes to mind.
Mark
when you think when quitting comes to mind? A time when you maybe should have and didn’t or did and wish you
Justin
Time when you maybe should have and didn’t or did and wish you
Mark
wouldn’t have that kind of thing?
Justin
wouldn’t have that kind of thing. Do you have those experiences?
Mark
Is that you have those experiences?
Justin
Yeah, you always got to get all personal with it.
Mark
I was going to get all personal.
Justin
You got to have to dig deep. It’s all time to hold your breath.
Mark
It’s all time to hold your breath.
Justin
Go on deep.
Mark
Yes, we’re going down. We’re.
Justin
I got on the diving board.
Mark
I got a diving boy.
Justin
Yeah, no, that’s a good question.
Mark
Yeah, no, that’s a good question.
Justin
I think it is a personal thing for me.
Mark
I think it is a personal thing for me.
Justin
I mean, that’s why I kind of added to our topic list
Mark
I mean, that’s why I kind of add it to our topic list
Justin
because there have been times.
Mark
because there have been times.
Justin
I may have mentioned it on here before,
Mark
I may have mentioned it on here before, but like,
Justin
but like, nah, probably haven’t.
Mark
I probably haven’t.
Justin
But one of the things, I tend to stick to things too long
Mark
But one of the things– I tend to stick to things too long to the degree
Justin
to the degree where, you know,
Mark
where I should give something up sooner than I do.
Justin
I should give something up sooner than I do,
Mark
But the way that I kind of determine,
Justin
but the way that I kind of determine, Okay, it’s time to move on from this thing is usually when the pain is too great, right?
Mark
okay, it’s time to move on from this thing is usually when the pain is too great, right?
Justin
Like it’s impacting family.
Mark
~ Okay. – It’s impacting family, it’s impacting my psychic,
Justin
It’s impacting, you know, kind of my psychic or psychology.
Mark
or psychology.
Justin
What’s the word?
Mark
~ Sure. – How’s the word?
Justin
Mental health.
Mark
~ Your psyche, yeah.
Justin
Yeah.
Mark
Or it’s just taking away from things that are more important.
Justin
Um, or it’s just taking away from things that are more important. Um, and so often I get to the point where I realize I need to quit a thing after it’s
Mark
Okay. And so often I get to the point where I realize I need to quit a thing after it’s already
Justin
already kind of negatively impacting my life.
Mark
kind of negatively impacting my life.
Justin
And there’s a phrase I overused in my life,
Mark
There’s a phrase I overused in my life, kind of like the stick.
Justin
kind of like the stick. I brought that up on our trip quite a bit.
Mark
Yeah. I brought that up and I’m sure quite a bit that people are really tired of.
Justin
That was a few more real tired of it. And it was fun.
Mark
I was giving my sad claim to fame, the stick.
Justin
That’s giving me my sad claim to fame, the stick. Anyway, back to the, and let me go back deep again with you.
Mark
Back to the… and let me go back deep again with you. He’s still down there, I got a catch.
Justin
He’s still down there, I gotta catch up.
Mark
I’m okay.
Justin
No, so the phrase I like to use
Mark
No, so the phrase I like to use is the grace runs out.
Justin
the grace runs out. So essentially, you know, I feel like God gives us grace to endure and,
Mark
Sure. I feel like God gives us grace to endure and do hard things in His grace as sufficient.
Justin
you know, do hard things and his grace is sufficient, right? And there are lots of verses about how
Mark
Sure. Sure. A lot of verses about how his grace, you know, equips us and enables us and gives us, you
Justin
his grace, you know, equips us and enables us and gives us and, you know, from my perspective,
Mark
know, from my perspective, supernatural abilities to be patient when you should keep, it doesn’t
Justin
supernatural abilities to be patient when you should, it doesn’t make sense to be patient,
Mark
make sense to be patient or stick to something when it feels like, you know, most people
Justin
or stick to something when it feels like most people would quit or whatever.
Mark
would quit or whatever.
Justin
And I believe grace enables a lot of that versus taking personal credit for being like
Mark
And I really grace enables a lot of that. is like taking personal credit for being like whatever that personality trait is. I do
Justin
whatever that personality trait is. I do believe there’s a huge amount of grace that comes along with that.
Mark
believe there’s a huge amount of grace that comes along with that. And so what I always
Justin
And so that’s what I always describe it is it feels like when it’s time to quit the grace
Mark
describe it is it feels like when it’s time to quit the grace ran out and now it’s kind
Justin
ran out. It’s kind of like the oil in a car running out.
Mark
of like the oil in the car. Sure. Yeah.
Justin
You know, there’s a leak.
Mark
It’s all got your cars running on without any oil. Yeah.
Justin
It’s all God. Now your car is running on without any oil. And it’s all friction, all heat.
Mark
All friction, all heat, it feels like it’s going to explode.
Justin
It feels like it’s going to explode.
Mark
Doesn’t make sense.
Justin
Doesn’t make sense. It ran fine last month.
Mark
It ran fine last month.
Justin
Why is it, you know, that kind of thing.
Mark
Why is it, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah.
Justin
It kind of has that feel to it.
Mark
Kind of has that feel to it. And that’s often when I realized, oh, I need to pull the car over.
Justin
And that’s often when I realize, oh, I need to pull the car over.
Mark
Sure.
Justin
You know?
Mark
Yeah.
Justin
Yeah. Would you say some of that though?
Mark
Would you say some of that, though? I realize it sounds as if there’s a building that
Justin
I realize it sounds as if there’s a building that goes along with us to where it’s like
Mark
goes along with us to where it’s like good things out
Justin
good things out of priority.
Mark
priority. In other words, it began as a good thing, something that I could do,
Justin
In other words, it began as a good thing, something that I could do something I might
Mark
something I might have even felt led to do, but yet I stayed in too long. In other
Justin
have even felt like did do. But yet I stayed in too long. In other words, there was a season and I just tried to make this a lifetime.
Mark
words, there was a season and I just tried to make this a lifetime. Is that
Justin
Yeah. Is that sure kind of describing?
Mark
what you’re kind of describing? Okay.
Justin
Yes, exactly.
Mark
And I would say to like
Justin
And I would say too, like for my particular personality,
Mark
Personality, I don’t know that I’m great at seeing those signs of oh that season is ended or is sure
Justin
I don’t know that I’m great at seeing those signs of, oh, that season is ended or is ending.
Mark
It’s kind of like I said the oil’s got to run out before I start looking around. Oh, you know, yeah
Justin
It’s kind of like I said, the oil’s got to run out before I start looking around, oh, you know.
Mark
That’s one of the ways that I’ve learned God uses to show me it’s quit in time
Justin
And I’ve just realized that’s one of the ways that I’ve learned God uses to show me. It’s quitting time, you know?
Mark
I hear you know you can call it so many other things that doesn’t sound like quitting and just I feel like it’s a good
Justin
And you could call it so many other things that doesn’t sound like quitting. I just, I feel like it’s a good polarizing word, right?
Mark
Polarizing word right sure sure
Justin
But, you know, season a little time to move on, whatever.
Mark
But I mean in a lot of ways at from my personality it feels like I’m quitting and it feels
Justin
But, I mean, in a lot of ways, from my personality, it feels like I’m quitting and it feels wrong
Mark
In bad and shameful does that make sure?
Justin
and bad and shameful. Does that make sense? So that’s kind of where the polarizing nature comes in, where it’s definitely the right thing,
Mark
So that’s kind of where the polarizing nature comes in words definitely the right thing the healthy thing
Justin
the healthy thing. The season is over, the signs are clear, and yet it feels shameful to me because
Mark
The season is over. Yeah, the signs are clear, you know, and yet it feels shameful to me because it’s quitting. Yeah
Justin
it’s quitting. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes sense. I think I appreciated as you were describing,
Mark
No, it makes sense that I think it is I appreciated as you were describing, you know, you mentioned different verses
Justin
you mentioned different verses. I think that whole aspect of Galatians 6 where it talks about
Mark
I think you know that that whole aspect of Galatian 6 where it talks about, you know Do not grow weary and doing good for in season, you know, you will reap
Justin
do not grow weary in doing yes or in season you know you will read you know that kind of thing and
Mark
You know that kind of thing and that’s you know and I think that can be one of those verses that we kind of hold on to
Justin
that’s you know and I think that can be one of those verses that we kind of hold on to yeah when we
Mark
When we go too long, you know, but I think you know
Justin
go too long you know but I think you know especially if you’re doing something good right like a
Mark
Good yeah
Justin
spiritual league good whatever you know like you have that perception yeah and I think you know in
Mark
Yeah And I and I think you know in a lot of cases even you know like I think of a like Ephesians 4 where it talks about
Justin
In a lot of cases, even, you know, like Ephesians 4, where it talks about, you know, not living as the Gentiles
Mark
You know not living as the Gentiles in the futility of their thinking which leads to a hardness of heart
Justin
in the futility of their thinking, which leads to a hardness of heart.
Mark
You know and I think that’s I think it is at times that hardness of heart that
Justin
You know, and I think that’s, I think it is at times that hardness of heart that affects our ability to quit.
Mark
affects our ability to quit I Can do it I got this my way. I’m gonna gut this out
Justin
~ Yeah. – I can do it. – Yeah. – I thought this my way. – Or I did it up until now.
Mark
Yeah
Justin
Why can’t I now?
Mark
Yeah, and I think sometimes we’re told I mean I would take that verse. Yeah. Yeah quit it
Justin
~ Yeah, and I think sometimes we’re told, I mean, I would take that verse, yeah, yeah. Quit living as the Gentiles
Mark
Quit living as the Gentiles in the futility of your thinking, you know, which leads to a hardness of heart and I as
Justin
and the futility of your thinking, which leads to a hardness of heart. And as we were talking about that in that process,
Mark
You we were talking about that in that process. I think about it as it comes to
Justin
I think about it as it comes to,
Mark
Sometimes I want to continue doing the things that I want to do, you know, whether that’s, you know, working a job
Justin
sometimes I want to continue doing the things that I want to do, whether that’s working a job,
Mark
You know that I don’t you know find fulfilling or you know certain or or relationships relationships would be another area
Justin
that I don’t find fulfilling or relationships or relationships would be another day
Mark
where it’s like, no, I’m holding onto this relationship
Justin
or what do you know? I’m holding onto this relationship
Mark
because I can’t be alone.
Justin
because I can’t be alone.
Mark
And so therefore, I can’t give up, that would be.
Justin
And so therefore I can’t give up that would be,
Mark
But yet, I’m in a stage of life.
Justin
but yeah, I’m in a life, I’m in a season of life
Mark
I’m in a season of life where now is the time
Justin
where now is the time to move on
Mark
to move on or change that relationship
Justin
or change the relationship
Mark
because I’m holding on in my own strength in some ways
Justin
because I’m holding on in my own strength in some ways.
Mark
because I’m scared to do it differently.
Justin
I’m scared to do it differently. Yeah. And I think, you know, I think, yeah,
Mark
And I think–
Justin
relationships is, yeah.
Mark
And I think, yeah, because I think that’s where, and I like that, the Ephesians part, because I think it gives us the ability to quit.
Justin
Yeah. Go ahead. I think that’s where I like that. The, the, the Ephesians part because I think it gives us the ability to quit and it helps us to recognize at times because I think when we talk about quitting, it’s more a matter of a sensitivity of knowing like you described that seasons over.
Mark
And it helps us to recognize at times, because I think when we talk about quitting, it’s more a matter of a sensitivity of knowing, like you described that seasons over.
Justin
And I think that takes a sensitivity and we lose that.
Mark
And I think that takes a sensitivity and we lose that when we kind of, Hey, say to God,
Justin
Yeah. Kind of say to God, this is the way I’m going to do it.
Mark
this is the way I’m going to do it.
Justin
Yeah.
Mark
And this is what I’m, you know, in that, you know, I can, I can make this work.
Justin
This is what I’m, you know, in that. Yeah. I can, I can make this work. Because that’s what I run into so much.
Mark
And because that’s what I run into so much.
Justin
And, you know, it’s like, yeah, you can make it work, but you’re also doing all
Mark
And, you know, it’s like, yeah, you can make it work, but you’re also doing all of the work in this relationship.
Justin
the work in this relationship. And you may need to pull out of that relationship in some ways.
Mark
And you may need to pull out of that relationship in some ways.
Justin
And here again, I’m not always referring to a marital relationship.
Mark
And I and here again, I’m not always referring to a marital relationship.
Justin
Sometimes I’m working, you know, with dating individuals and so forth.
Mark
Sometimes I’m working, you know, with dating individuals and so forth who, you
Justin
Who, you know, it’s a little different one.
Mark
know, it’s a little different one you’re married from my perspective.
Justin
Yeah. From my perspective. Yeah.
Mark
But if there’s, if I’m, if someone’s coming to me about a relationship and I
Justin
If there’s, if I’m, if someone’s coming to me about a relationship and I don’t
Mark
don’t know, it’s like, oh, hold on.
Justin
know, it’s a, well, hold on. It seems as if you’re the one that’s doing all the work, you know, and it’s
Mark
Who it seems as if you’re the one that’s doing all the work, you know, and it’s
Justin
okay to find someone else who actually wants to partner to contribute.
Mark
okay to find someone else who actually wants to partner with you. Yeah.
Justin
Yeah. Yeah.
Mark
And so I think that sensitivity to know or to be able to listen is an important part of that
Justin
And so I think that sensitivity to know or to be able to listen is an important part of that quitting dynamic.
Mark
quitting dynamic. But go ahead, there’s just more. Yeah. I think, well, I think for me, and this is
Justin
But there’s just more. Yeah. Yeah. I think, well, I think for me, and this is, I’m granted, I definitely have personal experience.
Mark
I can grant it, I definitely have personal experience. It was funny because actually,
Justin
It was funny because actually before the fourth, when Chris and I were part of the church plan,
Mark
before the fourth, when Chris and I were part of the church plant,
Justin
you know, I recognized that I was arrogant.
Mark
I recognized that I was arrogant in…
Justin
You were part of a church plant before the fourth.
Mark
~ Part of the church plan was for you.
Justin
Yes.
Mark
~ Yes, yes, many years ago,
Justin
Yes. Many years ago, when we had conversations we had.
Mark
when we, and I thought of here again, I’m thinking of the conversations we’ve had,
Justin
Yeah.
Mark
and you know, but Chris and I came to Wilmington
Justin
But Tristan, I came as part of a church plant.
Mark
as part of a church plan.
Justin
Cool. So many years ago, not before the fourth.
Mark
So we were many years ago, 2008,
Justin
I was in a year. Yeah.
Mark
this was actually the time.
Justin
Was it around the fourth? No, actually we in July, I believe it was July 8th.
Mark
No, actually we had July, I believe it was July 8th.
Justin
Okay, so we’re getting to the before the fourth part.
Mark
It was after the fourth.
Justin
Yeah, well, this is the connection, sir.
Mark
Yeah, well, this is the beginning and the end. But long story short, we were part of that church plan.
Justin
The long story short, we were part of that church plan.
Mark
And it was one of those things where I was on a kind of a
Justin
It was one of those things where I was on a kind of a leadership role.
Mark
leadership role. My pride and arrogance got the best of me
Justin
My pride in Americans got the best of me because I wanted to stay that, but yet it was also
Mark
because I wanted to stay that, but yet it was also a point
Justin
point where it was just wearing on us as a couple and a family and I wasn’t able to
Mark
where it was just wearing on us as a couple in a family and I wasn’t able to see that we needed to pull back.
Justin
see that we needed to pull back.
Mark
And so I think what my pride caused issues there
Justin
And so I think what my pride caused issues there and so I realized, hey, we got to maintain
Mark
and then so I realized, hey, yeah, we gotta maintain the family dynamic
Justin
the family dynamic because church isn’t necessarily a higher priority than family.
Mark
’cause church isn’t necessarily a higher priority than family. And I had made it a higher priority based on
Justin
I had made it a higher priority based on kind of that God’s work. This is
Mark
kind of that God’s work. This is God’s work, you know, and we can, you know,
Justin
working on working on it. You know, sometimes in our
Mark
sometimes in our repar or what needs to be reprioritized,
Justin
repri- well, what needs to be reprioritized? We can put church and serving
Mark
we can put church and serving other people equal to God,
Justin
other people equal to God, which should be, you know, one, you know, your
Mark
which should be, you know, number one, then, you know, your, your wife and then family, those kinds of things.
Justin
your wife and then family, those kind of things. So my priority, long story short,
Mark
So my priority, long story short,
Justin
my priorities were out of line. And I got to the point where we saw it,
Mark
my priorities were out of line. And I got to the point where we saw it and then we
Justin
and then we pulled back and you know but it always kind of lingered that I combination we
Mark
pulled back and, you know, but it always kind of lingered the eye combination we had done that wrong,
Justin
had done that wrong you know to quit on the rules and it you know it was interesting because we
Mark
to quit on those individuals. It was interesting because we actually got together with that couple that led to the church,
Justin
actually got together with that couple that led the church the pastor of that church.
Mark
the pastor of that church,
Justin
Before the fourth.
Mark
Kristen Ashley, right before the fourth. They came over to our place.
Justin
hear this. Yeah, cool.
Mark
We really did have a nice time being able to say,
Justin
We did have a nice time being able to say, yeah, I apologize for what was ours.
Mark
I apologize for what was ours and they were able to kind of share.
Justin
They were able to kind of share it.
Mark
Yeah, I was able to hear the fact that our choice left them in kind of a lurch.
Justin
Yeah. And I was able to hear the fact that our choice left them in kind of a lurch. And I was able to, we were able to apologize for that immaturity on our end.
Mark
And we were able to apologize for that immaturity on our end. But at the same time, we were able to recognize, they were able to kind of share and say,
Justin
But, you know, at the same time, you know, we were recognized, they were able to kind of share and say, yeah, you know, back then, he was honestly honest and willing enough to share. Yeah, I’m not sure I know anymore than I did go.
Mark
back then, he was honestly and willing enough to share. Yeah, I’m not sure I know anymore than I did when I was back then,
Justin
I was back then where church plans are concerned, but he said yeah, you know
Mark
where church plants are concerned, but he said, yeah,
Justin
There was things that they would do differently as well
Mark
there was things that they would do differently as well.
Justin
And I was it was just kind of a healing conversation
Mark
And it was just kind of a healing conversation,
Justin
I think for both of us to be able to put it out there in the air and
Mark
I think for both of us to be able to put it out there in the air
Justin
Recognize that there was some of that shame and guilt like you talked about for when we you know leave something
Mark
and recognize that there was some of that shame and guilt like you talked about for when we leave something.
Justin
And I don’t think I necessarily was dealing with it from the sensitivity that I just described
Mark
And I don’t think I necessarily was dealing with it from the sensitivity that I just described either,
Justin
Yeah, yeah, I could do but that’s also you know
Mark
you know, that I could do, but that’s also, you know,
Justin
23 15 years you’re taken there’s been a lot of changes in that process
Mark
well, 23, you know, 15 years ago, give or take. And there’s been a lot of changes in that process,
Justin
But that wasn’t one of the things that kind of changed our mind for me when you brought up the topic of quitting
Mark
but that was one of the things that kind of came to mind for me when you brought up the topic of quitting,
Justin
Yeah, was that church plan and how that got all mixed up
Mark
was that church plant and how that got all mixed up
Justin
Yeah, I like style and I the other part for me this quitting
Mark
in our lifestyle. And the other part, for me, that’s quitting,
Justin
I think of a old testament go back to the old testament like chronicles where you had these guys
Mark
I think of Old Testament, I go back to the Old Testament like chronicles where you had these guys that followed after the Lord
Justin
that followed after the Lord for so many, you know, they were like David. They did the things that David did
Mark
for so many, they were like David. They did the things that David did
Justin
until they turned away from God, you know, that kind of thing. And so often it was that that later on in life
Mark
until they turned away from God, you know, that kind of thing. And so often it was that later on in life type thing.
Justin
type thing and that’s I think that in in some ways when I think of quitting that becomes almost a
Mark
And that’s, I think that in some ways, when I think of quitting, that becomes almost a fear,
Justin
fear. Yeah, like a legacy killer. Yeah, that I could go so far doing it well. So long doing it well.
Mark
if you will, that, yeah, that I could go so far doing it well, so long doing it well, doing it God’s way.
Justin
And quit went right before the miracle. You’ve heard that phrase don’t quit before the miracle happens. Yeah
Mark
Yeah. Exactly. But yeah, I think, you know, I think there again, I think it’s a matter of
Justin
Yeah, but yeah, I think you know, I think there again I think it’s a matter of priorities that need to change or did changes I look back, you know
Mark
priorities that need to change or did change as I look back, you know, and think about it
Justin
And think about it spiritually so yeah
Mark
scripturally. So yeah, but those that’s my experience on, well, some of my experiences on quitting.
Justin
but those that’s my my experience some of my experiences on quitting.
Mark
Yeah, that’s similar to my personal one, and that you did ask me, my personal
Justin
~ Yeah, that’s similar to my personal one and that you did ask me my personal thing
Mark
Yeah.
Justin
and I managed to skip answering it,
Mark
I mean, I’ve made it back to you. {LAUGHTER}
Justin
but it was very similar to yours and that I was,
Mark
It’s very similar to yours in that I was the director of
Justin
the director of Celebrate Recovery for a few years
Mark
Celebrate Recovery for a few years. And at the end–
Justin
and at the end, I mean, that’s how I described,
Mark
I mean, that’s how I describe– I mean, really, I’ve realized in the last decade, that’s
Justin
I mean, really, I’ve realized in the last decade that that’s pretty much my cue when I should quit,
Mark
pretty much my cue when I should– wait, when I should move on.
Justin
when I should move on, you know,
Mark
It’s when the grace runs out.
Justin
is when the grace runs out is how I describe it.
Mark
It’s how I describe it. It’s just like, OK, everything was working, and now it’s not.
Justin
It’s just like, okay, everything was working and now it’s not and the plates can no longer
Mark
And the plates can no longer be juggled in before.
Justin
be juggled in before.
Mark
And that, you know, earlier you said, I can do it,
Justin
And that, you know, earlier you said, I can do it, you know, this idea, I need to do it, I can do it.
Mark
you know, this idea, I need to do it, I can do it.
Justin
For me, it’s more like, I should do it.
Mark
For me, it’s more like, I should do it.
Justin
Why am I not able to now when I was before
Mark
Why am I not able to now when I was four?
Justin
And just kind of, that’s why I was saying earlier
Mark
And just kind of, that’s why I was saying earlier
Justin
that there’s so much grace there
Mark
that there’s so much grace there
Justin
that we don’t necessarily even see
Mark
that we don’t necessarily even see
Justin
and we tend to take credit for it, you know?
Mark
and we tend to take credit for, you know? sure.
Justin
And it’s that oil, the lubrication,
Mark
And it’s that, that oil, the lubrication and that’s what I call grace in the sense that
Justin
and that’s what I call grace in the sense that things
Mark
things are working and you’re able to handle things as they come up problems.
Justin
are working and you’re able to handle things as they come up problems, solve them, not lose your cool,
Mark
So them not lose your cool.
Justin
all that kind of stuff.
Mark
All that kind of stuff.
Justin
It just feels right.
Mark
It just feels right.
Justin
It feels like you’re doing the right thing,
Mark
Feels like you’re doing the right thing.
Justin
you’re in the right place.
Mark
You’re in the right place.
Justin
And then sometimes that stops.
Mark
And then sometimes that stops and there’s not a visible thing you can look at and go,
Justin
And there’s not a visible thing you can look at and go, “That’s why it stopped.”
Mark
that’s why it stopped. You know, that person or that thing or that event.
Justin
Or, you know, that person or that thing or that event, it’s like, no, it just seems like the oil started running out
Mark
It’s like, no, it just seems like the oil started running out for no good reason.
Justin
for no good reason. There must be a leak or something, you know.
Mark
There must be a link or something.
Justin
~ How do you separate those two?
Mark
How do you separate those two?
Justin
Because I think– – What two?
Mark
Because I think there are some circumstances, some difficult hurdles, if you will, that
Justin
~ I think there are some circumstances, some difficult hurdles, if you will, that we probably do need to address
Mark
we probably do need to address or people we need to have difficult conversations with.
Justin
or people we need to talk, have some people call conversations with. Yeah, you’re not supposed to quit it the first sign of.
Mark
~ And that’s just to quit the first time.
Justin
Yeah.
Mark
~ Yeah.
Justin
So how do you separate those two?
Mark
So how do you separate those two that grace running out
Justin
That grace running out, even though there
Mark
even though there might be that difficult dynamic,
Justin
might be that difficult dynamic, that
Mark
that a difficult individual or individuals
Justin
difficult individual or individuals or a lack of,
Mark
or a lack of, well, I think of CR,
Justin
Well, I think of CR, you know, just in the context of a lack of, you know, whether it’s childcare or worship team or, you know,
Mark
just in the context of a lack of, whether it’s childcare or worship team or all of those.
Justin
yeah, difficult situations. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Mark
Yeah, obstacles, if you will. Yeah.
Justin
Obstacles. No, that’s a good question. I don’t think there’s a perfect answer, but I will say, again, I like the oil analogy because I think number one, there’s regular
Mark
No, that’s a good question. I don’t think there’s a perfect answer, but I will say, again, I like the oil analogy because I think number one, there’s regular, so the maintenance things you do should do.
Justin
and maintenance things you do, you should do.
Mark
If you don’t, you can expect things to start going off the rails.
Justin
And if you don’t, you can expect things to start going off the rails, right?
Mark
Sure.
Justin
So I think that’s part of it is,
Mark
I think that’s part of it is, are you no longer doing the things that you know you need to do to maintain this view?
Justin
are you no longer doing the things that you know you need to do to maintain this view?
Mark
Like, you know what I mean?
Justin
Like, you know what I mean?
Mark
Put an oil in the engine.
Justin
~ You’re putting oil in the engine.
Mark
An oil in the engine, yeah, and I feel like that, you can start to look at signs or symptoms and say,
Justin
Yeah, and I feel like that, you can start to look at signs or symptoms and say, “Well, I haven’t been putting oil in for a long time.”
Mark
“Well, I haven’t been putting oil in for a long time and that’s part of it.”
Justin
and that’s part of it, you know.
Mark
You know, and for that, you know, you go, “Why don’t you put oil in and then you do that?”
Justin
And for that, you know, you go, “Well, I need to put oil in and then you do that.” And I think too, like with the oil analogy,
Mark
I think too, like with the analogy, you do have signs before you’re broken down on the
Justin
like you do have size before you’re broken down on the side of the road, typically.
Mark
size of a road. Sure, okay.
Justin
You know, your engine’s getting a little hot, whatever.
Mark
Yeah, yeah. Your engine is getting a little hot, whatever.
Justin
You have opportunities to make some changes.
Mark
You have opportunities to make some changes.
Justin
And some older vehicles, you get all the signs,
Mark
And some older vehicles, you get all the signs, you put oil in, you do the things and still
Justin
you put oil in, you do the things and still gets worse and overheats and it’s just the car is old
Mark
Gets worse and over heats and just the cars old and seals are shot. I hear you
Justin
and seals are shot and whatever the thing is, right? It’s time. It’s worn out. And I think that’s
Mark
Yeah, whatever the thing is yeah, it’s it’s worn out You know, yeah, and I think that’s true in these types of things where sometimes it’s a fixable thing
Justin
true in these types of things where sometimes it’s a fixable thing. Sometimes you attempt to fix
Mark
Sometimes you try to go time to fix it. Mm-hmm. That wasn’t it either you try again
Justin
it and you realize, “Hmm, that wasn’t it either.” And you try again, “Hmm, that wasn’t it either.”
Mark
Mm-hmm. That was in the either right and you start to realize like well crap, you know, maybe this engine’s worn out
Justin
right? And you start to realize like, well, crap, you know, maybe this engine is worn out, you know what I mean? And I think for me, that’s, that’s
Mark
I hear you yeah, and I think for me that’s that’s kind of it’s not like I don’t I
Justin
kind of exist. Like, I don’t, I think my struggle is holding on too long. So
Mark
Think my struggle is holding on too long sure sure you know as far as I equipment the first thing
Justin
I, you know, as far as like quitting at the first thing, I don’t feel like
Mark
I don’t feel like that’s my personality did all I think it’s yeah opposite
Justin
that’s, that’s my personality at all. I think it’s kind of the opposite. But
Mark
But I definitely don’t believe that’s what we’re meant to do is look at every struggle as a sign
Justin
I definitely don’t believe that’s what we’re meant to do is look at every struggle as a sign. Does that make sense?
Mark
Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah, I believe we’re supposed to persevere in
Justin
I believe we’re supposed to persevere and, you know, yeah, it is.
Mark
And you know, that’s why this is tough.
Justin
That’s why this is tough is I think there is also an important
Mark
Because I think there is also an important sensitivity
Justin
sensitivity to use your phrase, right?
Mark
to use your phrase to recognize like,
Justin
To recognize like this is different and this, this hits different, you know?
Mark
this is different and this hits different. You know, and again, it really just can’t come down
Justin
And for me, again, it really just can’t comes down to difficult situations.
Mark
to difficult situations.
Justin
Previously were difficult, but manageable.
Mark
Previously were difficult but manageable.
Justin
And when it’s shift from manageable to, well, crap, that plate
Mark
And when it’s shipped for manageable to, that plate just cracked and broke and now I feel like this was about to crack and break.
Justin
just cracked and broke and now I feel like this one’s about to crack and break. You know, it’s just kind of, it just hits different.
Mark
And you know it’s just kind of, it just hits different, you know what I mean?
Justin
You know what I mean? Um, I can’t explain it other than to say I do believe that’s one of the clearest ways
Mark
I can’t explain it other than to say I do believe that’s one of the clearest ways God
Justin
God has made known to me that it’s time to move on from something is when the
Mark
has made known to me that it’s time to move on from something is when the plates start
Justin
plate started cracking and falling and like, uh, I think I’m a little bit stubborn.
Mark
cracking. Sure. I think I’m a little bit stubborn and so that’s the way that it gets my attention.
Justin
And so that’s, that’s the way that he gets my attention is. Um, and I’d like to be more sensitive, right?
Mark
I’d like to be more sensitive, right, to have a better clue in that, but I think that’s
Justin
to have a better clue in that, but I think that’s the stick, right?
Mark
the stick, right? So, the good side of the stick is the first appearance, and I do have this ability to
Justin
So the good side of the stick is the perfect perseverance, and I do have this ability to just stick in something for a long time while it’s hard.
Mark
just stick in something, well, for a long time, well, it’s hard.
Justin
The bad side of the stick is not having that sensitivity to know.
Mark
The bad side of the stick is not having that sensitivity to know. All right, well, it’s…
Justin
All right, well, my season is complete, and now it’s time to move on and do that in grace.
Mark
My season is complete, and I’ll have time to do that in grace. Yeah, I was thinking about your analogy of the cracking plate and the spinning of the
Justin
Yeah, I was thinking about your analogy of the crappy Clayton, the spinning up the plates if you will. You know, yeah,
Mark
the plates if you will, you know, because I think here again, when we’re talking about
Justin
because I think here again, when we’re talking about quitting,
Mark
quitting, when we have too many plates spinning, you know, and we’re trying to maintain a
Justin
when we have too many plates spinning, you know, and we’re trying to maintain a lot of plates in the air, I think there is
Mark
lot of plates in the air, I think there is that point where we come to a realization,
Justin
that point where we come to a realization, okay, I can hand
Mark
okay, I can hand this plate off to someone else, even before it drops and breaks. And
Justin
this plate off to someone else, even before it drops and breaks. And I think that’s a that’s a good leadership dynamic.
Mark
And I think that’s a good leadership dynamic, if you will, to be able to know what I can
Justin
Yeah. To be able to know what I can tell you.
Mark
delegate.
Justin
Because sometimes I think we hold on to too long, because we see ourselves as
Mark
Because sometimes I think we hold on to too long, because we see ourselves as the only
Justin
the only one that can.
Mark
one that can. Again, I always shift my mindset when you hate these things.
Justin
Again, I always shift my mindset when you say the only one who can or I I can or I
Mark
The only one who can or I can or I can make shit replace can.
Justin
think should replace can with should.
Mark
No.
Justin
I’m the only one who should.
Mark
I’m the only one who should. I hear you.
Justin
You know, so that’s the struggle for me personally is handing things off is like I feel like I shouldn’t
Mark
Yeah. me personally. Yeah. I feel like I shouldn’t. Because you’re the
Justin
Because you’re the only one that’s cabled
Mark
only one that’s capable. No, no, it’s not how me understand this
Justin
No, no, it’s not about it. I I feel like as the leader
Mark
should then. Why should I? As the leader, I should do the hard
Justin
I should do the hard things like I should shield others from you know, whatever and so
Mark
things. Like I should shield from, you know, whatever. And so if
Justin
If it’s hard, I should be doing it. Okay. Does that make sense? That’s the struggle that I have and I have a hard time saying
Mark
it’s hard, I should be doing it. Okay, I hear where you’re coming from. and I have a hard time saying, having that sensitivity to know,
Justin
Having that sensitivity to know just you know like yeah, this is hard therefore someone else should do it
Mark
just, you know, like, yeah, this is hard, therefore someone else should do it.
Justin
It’s my natural inclination is to say it’s hard. So I should do it. I shouldn’t have someone else
Mark
~ I hear where you’re coming from. – My natural inclination is to say, it’s hard, so I should do it. I shouldn’t have someone else.
Justin
You know what I mean? I do what I’m hearing is in this process say we got 10 plates
Mark
You know what I mean? – I do. What I’m hearing is in this process, say we got 10 plates spinning, just as an example.
Justin
We’re gonna we’re gonna automatically in some ways. I think by default. We’re gonna prioritize
Mark
We’re gonna automatically, in some ways, I think, by default, we’re gonna prioritize
Justin
the plates unknowingly or by default we’re gonna we’re gonna make sure we’re keeping some of them spinning and
Mark
the plates unknowingly or by default, we’re gonna make sure we’re keeping some of them spinning.
Justin
That those those ones number one and two like your family your relationship with God
Mark
And those ones, number one and two, like your family, your relationship with God,
Justin
You’re gonna do your best to keep those things. You’re not gonna hand them off to anyone else
Mark
you’re gonna do your best to keep those spinning. You’re not gonna hand them off to anyone else
Justin
Because those are the plates that from your perspective. Those are the ones that you should spin
Mark
because those are the plates that, from your perspective, those are the ones that you should spin.
Justin
You’re the only one from my perspective. Yeah, yeah
Mark
You’re the only one from my perspective that can spin those plates.
Justin
~ Spinning those plates. And yeah.
Mark
And yet there’s–
Justin
~ That’s such a simple phrase you just said,
Mark
It’s such a simple phrase you just said,
Justin
but that’s not often,
Mark
but that’s not often– I mean, how would say
Justin
I mean, I would say that’s a struggle for a lot of people
Mark
that’s a struggle for a lot of people
Justin
to even realize what you just said and live by that.
Mark
to even realize what you just said and live by that.
Justin
Even for me, sometimes,
Mark
Even for me, sometimes, I mean, that’s why it’s hard
Justin
I mean, that’s why it’s hard to quit.
Mark
to quit that.
Justin
~ I gotcha.
Mark
I gotcha.
Justin
~ But ultimately, I do come back to that truth.
Mark
But ultimately, I do come back to that truth.
Justin
~ Okay.
Mark
Okay.
Justin
~ And that’s what kind of pushes me over the edge
Mark
And that’s what kind of pushes me over the entity
Justin
to say, yeah, it’s time to quit that,
Mark
to say, “Yeah, it’s time to quit that,”
Justin
is because these two plates are,
Mark
because these two plates are–
Justin
I’m starting to see them shake
Mark
I’m starting to see them shake and they shouldn’t.
Justin
and they shouldn’t, right?
Mark
~ Yes, yes.
Justin
But I just wanna take, just pause real quick to say,
Mark
~ I mean, I’m gonna take Bob real quick to say that’s significant and if you’re listening,
Justin
that’s significant and if you’re listening, like hear that, you know, does that make sense?
Mark
like hear that. – I got you. – Does that make sense? – Yeah.
Justin
Carry on.
Mark
~ Carry on.
Justin
~ No, no, and that’s where I’m saying, you know,
Mark
~ No, no, and that’s where I’m saying, you know,
Justin
some of the, so when we get to plates nine, eight, nine,
Mark
some of the, so when we get to plates nine, eight, nine and 10, you know, those are ones that maybe
Justin
and 10, you know, those are ones that maybe
Mark
we need to consider from a leadership dynamic
Justin
we need to consider from a leadership dynamic handing off to others who, you know, are equally,
Mark
handing off to others who, you know, are equally,
Justin
if not better equipped to spend those plates,
Mark
if not better equipped to spin those plates,
Justin
and I think that’s where that can and should
Mark
and I think that’s where that can and should
Justin
can kind of get mixed up.
Mark
can kind of get mixed up. When I, as I see that someone else may actually be able
Justin
As I see that someone else may actually be able
Mark
to do that better, I think that’s a sensitivity.
Justin
to do that better. I think that’s a sensitivity.
Mark
~ Yeah, it’s my struggle in that.
Justin
~ Yeah, it’s my struggle in that really has a lot to do with,
Mark
~ Yeah. – It really has a lot to do with,
Justin
Okay, I’m trying to spin 10 plates
Mark
Okay, I’m trying to spin 10 plates. – Yep.
Justin
and I need to get rid of this 10th one.
Mark
~ And I need to get rid of this 10th one.
Justin
It’s too much and I see Mark and I’m like,
Mark
It’s too much. And I see Mark and I’m like, oh, Mark could do it.
Justin
oh, Mark could do it. He could spin that plate probably better than I can.
Mark
He could spin that plate probably better than I can.
Justin
And then I look at him and I go,
Mark
And then I look at him and I go, wait.
Justin
“Wait, it looks like maybe he has nine plates spinning too.”
Mark
It looks like maybe he has nine plates spinning too. – Sure.
Justin
Okay, so maybe this says,
Mark
~ Okay, so maybe it’s a, oh wait, they got eight plates
Justin
oh wait, they got eight plates and, you know,
Mark
and you know, one of those plates is really heavy.
Justin
one of those plates is really heavy, whatever.
Mark
~ Yeah.
Justin
And I start assessing other people’s abilities
Mark
~ And I start assessing other people’s abilities,
Justin
or, you know, like, not abilities,
Mark
or you know, like, I don’t know, I feel bad. I feel bad asking someone to take the plate. I’m like, it’s hard for me to spin. It’s gonna be hard for you.
Justin
but I feel, I just feel bad. I feel bad asking someone to take the plate. ‘Cause I’m like, it’s hard for me to spin, it’s gonna be hard for you.
Mark
I feel like I’m supposed to do the hard things.
Justin
And I don’t wanna put that on you. I feel like I’m supposed to do the hard things
Mark
In these particular cases at the top of this food chain, and I should be shielding you from that hard thing.
Justin
is I’m at the, you know, in these particular cases at the top of this food chain and I should be shielding you from that hard thing.
Mark
Gotcha.
Justin
Not, not, does that make sense?
Mark
Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes perfect sense because if the way I’m hearing it, you know, you tend to assess other people’s
Justin
~ Yeah, that makes perfect sense ’cause the way I’m hearing it, you know, you tend to assess all their people. – Probably incorrectly.
Mark
~ Incorrectly.
Justin
A stick it’s probably a stick thing right where I think it’s good
Mark
~ At times we all, Jim. – It’s probably– (laughing) – Okay, okay, I’m with your family now.
Justin
You see you see
Mark
(laughing) Drop the stick, spin the plate. No, I just– (laughing) – You did. – No, it’s all good, but yes, being able to recognize though,
Justin
But yes being able to recognize though that if we if you will on the other end of that is you can be on giving someone a gift
Mark
that if you will on the other end of that is you can be all giving someone a gift.
Justin
Yes, yeah
Mark
that when I think even of CR, you know,
Justin
And that transition of leadership, you know being able to hand that off to someone
Mark
and that transition of leadership, you know, being able to hand that off to someone, you know,
Justin
You know in a specific way. I believe that is a gift that says hey you have the ability
Mark
in a specific way, I believe that is a gift that says, “Hey, you have the abilities.
Justin
I see these abilities in you. I’m not necessarily counting your plates for you
Mark
“I see these abilities in you. “I’m not necessarily counting your plates for you,
Justin
But yeah, is this a plate that you would be interested?
Mark
“but is this a plate that you would be interested,
Justin
Yeah, you have a desire to spin yeah, because I am honestly looking to you know
Mark
“that you feel you have a desire to spin? because I am honestly looking to not spin this plate anymore.
Justin
not spend this plate anymore. – Yeah.
Mark
And that can be a ministry, I think that can be a bunch of different things.
Justin
~ And I can be a ministry, I think that can be a bunch of different things. – Yeah.
Mark
~ I wanna be clear, I’m not saying the way, I feel like I’m doing it, right?
Justin
And I wanna be clear, I’m not saying the way I feel like I’m doing it, right?
Mark
I’m just saying that’s my thing, right?
Justin
I’m just saying that’s my bent, right?
Mark
~ Yeah.
Justin
So the way I augment my weaknesses in that way is,
Mark
~ So the way I augment my weaknesses in that way is,
Justin
I’m like, we’ll talk to someone like you,
Mark
like we’ll talk to someone like you, and you’ll give me that advice
Justin
and you’ll give me that advice about,
Mark
Okay, you should consider giving it to them or whatever like
Justin
you should consider giving it to them or whatever. like or you know just being able to say like am I crazy or should I be given this
Mark
Or you know just being able to say like am I crazy or should I be given this away or whatever?
Justin
away or whatever and the answer is like yeah you know and then I’m like okay
Mark
Yeah, yeah, and then I’m like, okay, yeah, yeah
Justin
good you know it’s like that’s that should kind of fades a little bit into it
Mark
That should kind of fade a little bit sure I should actually give it away
Justin
more of a I should actually give it away and instead of I should be shielding
Mark
It’s that I should be shielding everyone from this and doing it
Justin
everyone from this and doing it myself does that make sense yeah I think that’s
Mark
Yeah, it makes sense because and I think that’s the difficulty of should at times is I can take
Justin
the difficulty of should yeah yeah yeah is I can take that and spin it in my own
Mark
that and spin it in my own mind so much that it becomes, well, there isn’t any other choice.
Justin
mind so much that it becomes well there isn’t any other choice yeah this is the
Mark
Yeah. This is the way and I should.
Justin
way yeah and I should yeah and it’s when I talk with someone else it’s me there
Mark
And it’s when I talk with someone else, it’s like, hmm, there might be another way.
Justin
might be another way yeah yeah yeah and maybe I’m robbing someone else yeah by
Mark
And maybe I’m robbing someone else by me kind of just doing this my own way or in my own
Justin
me kind of just doing this my own way yeah and so back to the idea of quitting
Mark
energy. the idea of quitting for me that it becomes time when all those things that I do that
Justin
for me that it becomes time when all those things that I do that usually work, like talking
Mark
usually work, like talking to someone else, getting advice, and just all the tools that
Justin
to someone else, getting advice, and just all the tools that I’ve learned, right?
Mark
I’ve learned, right? When they no longer are keeping me above water, right? Sure. Okay,
Justin
When they no longer are keeping me above water, right? And it’s like, okay, I think it’s time to consider moving on that this season is over.
Mark
I think it’s time to consider moving on that this season is over. I guess I would like
Justin
I guess I would, I like to transition to that, the idea of, let’s talk about what it means
Mark
the transition that the idea of let’s talk about what it means to quit well
Justin
to quit well because I think, I mean, in your own story, you said you had that good conversation
Mark
okay because I think I mean in your own story you said you had that good conversation yeah yeah yeah Chris and Ashley how that left them and that kind
Justin
with, as a pastor, right, and his wife and kind of how that, how that left them and that kind of thing.
Mark
of thing and I’ve come through similar situations where I you know just maybe
Justin
And I’ve gone through similar situations where, you know, just maybe not quitting well.
Mark
not quitting well maybe I’m not putting that yeah no no here thoughts on that but
Justin
I’m not putting that on you. I’d love to hear your thoughts on that.
Mark
But that came to mind for me.
Justin
But that came to mind for me. It’s like, can we do a better job of quitting well?
Mark
It’s like, can we do a better job of quitting well? Because since there is such a stigma on quitting,
Justin
Because since there is such a stigma on quitting, I think often we wait till the last minute
Mark
I think often we wait ’til the last minute
Justin
and then we explode.
Mark
and then explode. We explode quit.
Justin
We explode quit.
Mark
~ Yeah, no, I hear you.
Justin
And that’s not good either.
Mark
~ It’s not good either. – Yep.
Justin
So quit well almost seems like an oxymoron.
Mark
~ Quit well almost seems like an oxymoron. Their opposite ends of the, yeah.
Justin
Yes. Yes.
Mark
Yeah.
Justin
I think there’s correct me.
Mark
~ I think there’s, correct me, you know, I’m sure you agree,
Justin
Or, you know, I’m sure you agree, but like, I would love to hear your thoughts on what
Mark
but like, I would love to hear your thoughts on, What does it mean?
Justin
does it mean?
Mark
What do you see?
Justin
What do you see?
Mark
How do you consider that we can quit well?
Justin
How do you consider that we can quit well? Does that make sense?
Mark
Does that make sense? – Sure.
Justin
Sure.
Mark
And I think you bring up a great point
Justin
And I think you bring up a great point as far as so often when, you know, the heat has
Mark
as far as so often when the heat has built
Justin
built and we haven’t necessarily addressed any issues, you know, we have this volcano,
Mark
and we haven’t necessarily addressed any issues, we have this volcano, this volcano type quitting
Justin
volcano type queen where everything erupts. Yeah. And
Mark
where everything erupts and there’s lava everywhere
Justin
there’s a lot of everywhere and there’s heat more heat. Yeah.
Mark
and there’s more heat-hidden people
Justin
People that shouldn’t be being hit. Yeah. You know, and so
Mark
that shouldn’t be being hit, you know, and so therefore we just separate from there.
Justin
therefore we just separate from there. Yep. Yep. Yep.
Mark
You follow me that, unfortunately.
Justin
Yep. Yeah. The car blows up and now you’re stuck inside the
Mark
~ The car pulled up and now you’re stuck inside the road
Justin
road. It’s like, well, we’re quick. We’re done. Yeah. Yeah.
Mark
and said, well we’re quick. – Yep, exactly. And I think so often from my two, and here again,
Justin
And I think so often from like to, and here again, I’m not
Mark
I’m not trying to, I’m massaging the word if you will quit.
Justin
trying to, I’m massaging the word with, I think transition is a good thing.
Mark
I think transition is a good thing.
Justin
And to be able to think about it in the dynamic of saying, okay, yeah, there’s a transition
Mark
And to be able to think about it in the dynamic of saying, okay, yeah, there’s a transition that needs to be made here.
Justin
that needs to be made here. And in order for a good transition to happen, we have to start talking about this.
Mark
And in order for a good transition to happen, we have to start talking about this. Number one, talk with God about that transition.
Justin
You know, and number one, I, you know, talk with it, talk with, talk with God about that transition.
Mark
I talk with my spouse about that transition.
Justin
I talk with my spouse about that transition. I talk with my family, you know, then other people, you know, to be able to say, okay,
Mark
I talk with my family, you know, then other people, you know, to be able to say, okay, you know me, you know, who I am.
Justin
you know me, you know, who I am. And this is where I’m at.
Mark
And this is where I’m at.
Justin
This is what I’m feeling.
Mark
This is what I’m feeling.
Justin
This is what I’m thinking.
Mark
This is what I’m thinking.
Justin
And, you know, what are your thoughts on that?
Mark
And you know, what are your thoughts on that kind of thing to where, and granted, I’m not
Justin
like a collaborative effort almost.
Mark
taking, yeah, I’m not necessarily taking an issue that I have with someone else.
Justin
Not necessarily taking an issue that I have with someone else.
Mark
That’s, that’s not correct.
Justin
That’s not correct.
Mark
I’m not taking a one-on-one issue to a bunch of other people to talk with them about that.
Justin
I’m not taking a one-on-one issue to a bunch of other people to talk with them about that.
Mark
If I have an issue with an individual in a ministry or at work, yes.
Justin
If I have an issue with an individual in a ministry or an event. When it comes to more of a relational, great running out, relationally. Yeah, I think we do have to be able to talk with that individual if that’s the case, having
Mark
I think we do have to be able to talk with that individual if that’s the case, having
Justin
conversations and then if that doesn’t go well, you know, maybe definitely bringing other
Mark
conversations. If that doesn’t go well, you know, maybe, you know, definitely bringing other people
Justin
people in to be able to say, okay, this is where we’re at an impasse, because I think
Mark
in, you know, to be able to say, okay, this is where we’re at, we’re at an impasse, you know, because I think that’s part of a good transition or quitting well, if you will,
Justin
that’s part of a good transition or a pretty well if you will, to be able to say, okay,
Mark
to be able to say, okay, yeah, there is a, there is a, there is a issue here and we’re
Justin
There is a there is an issue here and we’re at an impasse or you know
Mark
at an impasse or, you know, I’m a, the, the grace is running out on this.
Justin
I’m not the the grace is running out on this and I think at that time
Mark
And I think at that time, you know, when I’ve had those conversations and, you know, if
Justin
You know one when I’ve had those conversations and you know if someone is able to
Mark
someone is able to take up that plate, you know, and spin it, that’s a good transition
Justin
Take up that plate, you know and spin it. That’s a good Transition mm-hmm can step away. Yeah, and I think there is a and I that being said
Mark
and I can step away. And I think there is a, and I, that being said, I also think if I’ve done all that work
Justin
I also think if I’ve done all that work and someone else hasn’t come forward or doesn’t
Mark
and someone else hasn’t come forward or doesn’t adopt that plate, I may just have to let that
Justin
adopt that plate, I may just have to let that plate quit spinning in general and recognize
Mark
plate quit spinning in general and recognize, okay, it was a it was a vacuum that didn’t
Justin
okay, it was a vacuum that didn’t need to be filled tightly.
Mark
need to be filled type thing. Yeah. And that’s okay too. Yeah. It wasn’t for me and by me
Justin
Yeah. And that’s okay too. Yeah. It wasn’t for me and by me stepping away, if it really needs to be done, someone else
Mark
stepping away, if it really needs to be done, someone else will do it.
Justin
will do it.
Mark
Yeah, that was that’s great. Yeah. I think there is a some interesting distinctions between
Justin
Yeah, that’s great. Yeah, I think there is some interesting distinctions between relational, kind of the relational
Mark
relational, kind of the relational side of this or kind of occupational if you will.
Justin
side of this or kind of sure occupational.
Mark
You’re occupational. Things that I do. Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, I think letting the
Justin
Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, I think letting the plate fall is a scary proposition when you feel like that was my
Mark
plate fall is a scary proposition. I feel like that was my plate to carry. You know,
Justin
plate to carry. It’s like when it comes to the point. I think that for me is one of the hardest
Mark
it’s like, sure, when it comes to the point. I think that that for me is one of the hardest point where you go, “Oh crap, I might have to let this thing fall.”
Justin
points where you go, “Oh crap, I might have to let this thing fall. It feels wrong. It feels bad.
Mark
~ Sure. – If it feels wrong, it feels bad.
Justin
That’s where the shame the guilt comes in.” And I think ultimately for me counsel is a big part
Mark
That’s where Shane the guilt comes in. And I think ultimately, for me, Council is a big part of that to recognize,
Justin
of that to recognize, “Well, there’s no reason for shame or guilt because it’s clear.”
Mark
well, there’s no reason for Shane or guilt because, you know, it’s clear. – Sure. – And I need that. I like, I need that third party voice
Justin
And I need that. I like, I need that third party voice telling me that. And sometimes,
Mark
telling me that. Sometimes, a lot of times, the Holy Spirit,
Justin
a lot of times, the Holy Spirit is the one who kicks out that conversation or ends it, right,
Mark
the one that kicks out that conversation or something. – Sure.
Justin
to say, “This is my, what I desire for you.” So I’m trying to be in tune, but I’m also like,
Mark
~ Right. – Yeah. – This is my, what I desire for, you know. So I’m trying to be in tune, but I’m also like,
Justin
“Am I crazy? Am I hearing this wrong?” I like to get other voices because I just don’t trust
Mark
am I crazy or am I hearing this wrong? – Mm. – I like to get other voices because I just don’t trust
Justin
myself very well when it comes to that. But relationally, it can be very difficult for
Mark
myself very well, you know. – Oh yeah. – When it comes to that. But relationally, it can be very difficult for a lot of reasons, right?
Justin
a lot of reasons, right? Because you’re basically saying, “I’m running out of grace for you.”
Mark
‘Cause you’re basically saying, I’m running out of grace for you.
Justin
Right? And how do you have that conversation? Well, it’s hard, but I think it’s important.
Mark
~ Uh-huh. – Right? And how do you have that conversation? Well, it’s hard, but I think it’s important.
Justin
Yeah. And then transitioning, again, it’s hard. I really feel like there needs to be a distinction
Mark
Yeah, and then, yeah, transitioning, again, it’s hard. It’s like, I really feel like there needs to be a distinction
Justin
between relational and use in the word occupational, but really kind of any positional type thing.
Mark
between relational and occupation, but kind of any positional type thing.
Justin
Yeah, things we do. Yep. Because I think occupation only things we do, whatever.
Mark
~ Things we do. – Yeah, things we do, yeah. ‘Cause I think occupationally, things we do, whatever.
Justin
It’s about transitioning is about communication and about having some buffer. But I think it’s
Mark
It’s about transitioning is about communication and about having some buffer. I think it’s about time and communication.
Justin
about time and communication. It’s about saying, “Hey, this is my goal. My plan is to quit doing this
Mark
It’s about saying, hey, this is my goal. My plan is to quit doing this thing, whatever it is.
Justin
thing, whatever it is, let’s work together to figure out what that looks like.
Mark
Let’s work together to figure out what that looks like.
Justin
And by this time, that plate will fall one way or another.
Mark
By this time, that plate will fall one way or another.
Justin
You know, I think that’s an important part of it too, because some organizations or
Mark
I think that’s an important part of it too, because some organizations or opportunities
Justin
opportunities, they’ll just continue to use you until you drop the plate.
Mark
they’ll just continue to use you until you drop the plate. sure.
Justin
So if you don’t have a very clear definition of what that time frame looks like, I feel like,
Mark
So if you don’t have a very clear definition of what that time frame looks like, I feel like — I feel like it’s a healthy thing.
Justin
I feel like that’s a healthy thing in terms of quitting well, let’s be able to say,
Mark
I gotcha. >> In terms of what you want to say, you know, this is the amount of time I have to give
Justin
you know, this is the amount of time I have to give to this transition.
Mark
to this transition I’d love to do, what I can in that time to allow that transition
Justin
I’d love to do what I can in that time to allow that transition to occur,
Mark
to occur, whether it’s helping to find the replacement or training and replacement that
Justin
whether it’s helping find a replacement or training and replacement that you find or,
Mark
you find or what, you know how —
Justin
you know, how, you know, um, I think that’s good.
Mark
Yeah, yeah. >> I think that’s good.
Justin
And I can definitely say there have been times I’ve not transitioned well, right?
Mark
I can definitely say there have been times I have not transitioned. Yeah.
Justin
I haven’t quit well.
Mark
It’s been like, well, it’s time in the conversation was, sorry, it’s time to move on.
Justin
It’s, it’s been like, well, it’s time in the conversation was, sorry, it’s time to move on. And, and I, you know, I can say that those times I’m not the most proud of,
Mark
I can say that those times I’m not the most proud of, right?
Justin
right? like I’d much rather have been able to look back and say,
Mark
Like I’d much rather have been able to look back and say I helped them transition well.
Justin
I helped them transition well. – How would you say as you’re making that clarification,
Mark
Sure. How would you say as you’re making that clarification, What would be some of the differences you would see between how we are supposed to do
Justin
what would be some of the differences you would see between how we are supposed to do a relational transition
Mark
a relational transition versus a occupational or things we’re doing?
Justin
versus a occupational or things we’re doing? – Well, for one, it’s not like handing off
Mark
Well, for one, it’s not like handing off a thing.
Justin
thing, right? Like a thing to do and saying, you know, if basically I’m done with this
Mark
Okay. Right? Like a thing to do. Who would say, you know, if basically I’m done with this relationship in five months
Justin
relationship in five months between that, then and now you need to figure out how to
Mark
between then and now you need to figure out how to do these things that I was doing.
Justin
do these things that I was doing. Like that feels like it doesn’t feel like it fits, but
Mark
Like that feels like it doesn’t feel like it’s, but you’re smiling.
Justin
you’re smiling like maybe it’s not that different.
Mark
Like maybe it’s not that different, but.
Justin
Well, and as I said, when you’re making that, it’s not that I would say they’re always
Mark
Well, I know and I, that’s what, when you were making that, it’s, it’s not that I would say they’re always completely different either.
Justin
completely different either.
Mark
Is kind of, you know, because I think, I think as when you were sharing boundaries comes to mind,
Justin
Yeah. It’s kind of interesting. Yeah. Because I think as when you were sharing boundaries comes to mind. Yeah.
Mark
you know, within relationships. And I think there is something to be said and granted,
Justin
You know, within relationships. And I think there is something to be said and granted, the type of relationship, even
Mark
the type of relationship, even as you use the word grace, I think of 40 days of purpose, that
Justin
as you use the word, grace, I think that 40 days of purpose, that EGR, I think, is
Mark
EGR, extra grace required. Some people have our EGR, you know, they have, there’s, and I think I can
Justin
Extra Grace required something. – Yeah. – And I think I can have ongoing long-term relationships with people who require extra grace.
Mark
have ongoing long-term relationships with people who require extra grace. And yet, I also know that.
Justin
~ Yeah. – And yet I also know that.
Mark
That’s an awareness that I have so that I’m not necessary. I’m going to shape my day
Justin
~ Yeah. – That’s an awareness that I have. – Yeah. – So that I’m not necessary. I’m gonna shape my day in such a way
Mark
in such a way that is going to interact with that individual on a different timetable.
Justin
that is going to interact with that individual on a different timetable. And I am going to have some boundaries at times because that person may have a
Mark
And I am going to have some boundaries at times because that person may have a difficult time
Justin
difficult time saying, “Oh, you only have this much time.”
Mark
saying, “Well, you only have this much time.” It’s like, “Yep, I only have this much time.” Now,
Justin
It’s like, “Yep, I only have this much time.” Now granted, is that grace on
Mark
granted, is that grace on my part? I think it’s still grace to be able to be of help,
Justin
my part, I think it’s still grace, you know, to be able to be of help. But at the same time,
Mark
But at the same time in those situations, the opposite do it a lack of self awareness. Yeah
Justin
well, in those situations, the opposite do with a lack of self awareness on the other side, part and so therefore you
Mark
Partends of therefore you have to have the awareness for them sure and I think that’s still
Justin
have to have the awareness for them. Right. Like, and that’s still if the relationship is going to be there, that’s how it
Mark
Yep
Justin
has to happen because that self awareness isn’t there on that
Mark
Right and that’s where this it’s still I think it still comes back to being able to communicate
Justin
side. It’s part and I think there’s that’s the EDR. Right. It’s like, that’s where it’s still, I think it still comes back to being able to communicate and say, no, I can’t do. I’m not going to. It’s not that I can’t. It’s not. It’s the, I don’t have the ability to spend that much time because otherwise I’m starting to affect these other plates. Yeah.
Mark
and say, no, I can’t do, I’m not going to. It’s not that I can’t. It’s not, it’s that I don’t have the ability to spend that much time because otherwise I’m starting to affect these other plates that I have prioritized,
Justin
that I have prioritized, not that you’re not right.
Mark
not that you’re not, you know, an individual, you know, a person created in God’s image
Justin
And into it, you know, a person created God’s image with, you know, wonderful design.
Mark
with, you know, wonderful design and, you know, that kind of thing.
Justin
And you know, not that you’re no priority.
Mark
Yes, exactly. Correct. And sometimes certain individuals want to be the sole priority.
Justin
Yes. You’re just not all the priorities. Correct. Right. And sometimes certain individuals want to be. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, we have the same way we have to have those difficult
Mark
And I think, you know, we have to same way, we have to have those difficult conversations
Justin
conversations in such a way that says, okay, yeah.
Mark
in such a way that says, okay, yeah, because when we do, that person might be able to recognize in
Justin
Because when we do that person might be able to recognize in some ways, okay, yeah, this is a pattern for me.
Mark
some ways, okay, yeah, this is a pattern for me. You know, I tend to cling to people too much.
Justin
You know, I tend to cling to people too much.
Mark
And I want them to be my soul, you know, help.
Justin
Yeah. And I want them to be my soul, you know, help.
Mark
Go ahead, yeah, you’re looking out
Justin
Yeah. My everything. Yeah. You’re looking up and I just, you go, go for it.
Mark
and I just, you can go for it.
Justin
Just keep talking.
Mark
I can do that.
Justin
I think there is a difference between how we handle people versus how we handle things.
Mark
But no, and so I think there is a difference between how we handle people versus how we handle things.
Justin
So you agree.
Mark
And yet I’m also gonna recognize relationships are a thing.
Justin
And yet I’m also going to recognize relationships are a thing.
Mark
Yeah. So I think it’s important to be able to say, okay, yeah, is this thing, this relationship
Justin
So I think it’s important to be able to say, okay, yeah, is this thing, this relationship
Mark
beneficial and it doesn’t have to be solely beneficial, but is it beneficial? And I think
Justin
beneficial and it doesn’t have to be solely beneficial. But is it is it beneficial? And it can, and I think we can look at that relationship and say, yeah, it’s beneficial, even if it is just
Mark
we can look at that relationship and say, yeah, it’s beneficial, even if it is just beneficial to
Justin
beneficial to you. Yeah, typically not. It’s a relationship. Yeah, relationship is going to be
Mark
you, but it’s typically not. A sound relationship is going to be reciprocal.
Justin
reciprocal. Right. And there’s a continuum to use your face of beneficial to negative, right? Like,
Mark
Right. And there’s a continuum. >> Okay. >> It’s your phase of beneficial to negative, right? Like some relationships have negative —
Justin
Some relationships have negative are they hurt us more than they help.
Mark
they hurt us more than they have. Right? So you can’t just say, is this relationship beneficial
Justin
Right. So you can’t just say, is this relationship beneficial or not to you and to me?
Mark
or not? >> Well, that’s — >> — to me it’s also — but also is it hurting me?
Justin
It’s also, but also is it hurting me?
Mark
In other words, going to the plate thing, is it requiring more plates
Justin
In other words, go back to the plate thing. Is it requiring more plates than I have room for, right?
Mark
than I have room for, right?
Justin
Like, or is our interactions you taking in a way that is painful?
Mark
Sure. Sure. Or is our interactions you taking in a way that is painful?
Justin
You know, or you hurting, you know, just directly hurting.
Mark
Or you hurt just directly? And I think there’s a line there, but I’m going to see even a relationship that may seem
Justin
a line there, but I’m going to see even a relationship that may seem one-sided. I’m not
Mark
one-sided. I’m not saying that’s not beneficial to me because that’s an area where I can serve
Justin
saying that’s not beneficial to me because that’s an area where I can serve other people.
Mark
other people.
Justin
Yes, correct.
Mark
Yes. And that doesn’t make it negative if you know to use the terminology
Justin
And that doesn’t make it negative. Yeah. You know, that’s why that’s actually why I wanted to make the difference or differentiate
Mark
Sure
Justin
between a negative and just lacking in benefit, because lacking in benefit doesn’t mean don’t
Mark
Right
Justin
have that relationship. Like you said, there are going to be relationships where you are
Mark
And there are then there’s still beneficial
Justin
meant to give in that way and you are meant to. Yes, they’re still beneficial because you’re meant to give and that’s a benefit to you. Right? Like, yeah, to both. Yes.
Mark
to both. Yeah, at that point. Yeah, no doubt. You were you were, did you find what you were looking
Justin
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You were, you were, did you find what you were looking at?
Mark
for? Okay. You were just sending the text to Megan, I get it, I understand. No, that’s okay too.
Justin
Yeah. You were just sending the text a negative. That’s right. That’s right. That’s okay.
Mark
But yeah, that’s that’s where I’m at with that dynamic. Because to where I don’t,
Justin
But yeah, that’s, that’s where I’m at with that dynamic. Because to where I don’t, I think.
Mark
I think relationships and it’s going to depend on the person.
Justin
Relationships and it is going to depend on the person. But I think relationships can be more difficult.
Mark
but I think relationships can be more difficult, you know, than things, you know.
Justin
Yeah. You know, then things. Yes, yeah, I think so too.
Mark
Yes, yeah, I think so too. Honestly, when I brought the subject up, the concept of relationship didn’t occur to me at all.
Justin
Honestly, when I brought the subject up, the concept of relationship didn’t occur to me at all. It was very circumstantial jobs, callings, seasons.
Mark
Oh, okay. Right, it was very circumstantial jobs, feelings, seasons. It was all about kind of occupational size,
Justin
It was all about that occupational side of that’s the phrase we’re using right now to differentiate
Mark
that’s the phrase we’re using right now to differentiate between.
Justin
between. But yeah, there wasn’t relational. So when you brought that, I’m like, “Oh, interesting.
Mark
But yeah, there wasn’t relational. So when you brought that, I’m like, oh, interesting.
Justin
out. We should definitely, I mean, I’m glad we’re talking about this, but so I can’t say I’ve given
Mark
We should definitely, I mean, I’m glad we’re talking about this. But I can’t say, given that a lot of thought,
Justin
that a lot of thought, but I think like I agree with you that that’s definitely the harder side.
Mark
but I think, I agree with you that that’s definitely the harder side.
Justin
It definitely makes me think of recovery in that that’s a huge component of a healthy recovery plan
Mark
It definitely makes me think of recovery and that huge component of a healthy recovery plan
Justin
is replacing people, places and things that are triggers or you know, you know, that whole thing.
Mark
is replacing people, places and things that are triggers or that whole thing.
Justin
Drinking buddies, you know, or triggers or patterns that would cause you to fall back into that addiction.
Mark
Drinking buddies, or triggers or patterns that would cause you to fall back into that addiction.
Justin
And so there is that’s a pretty common scenario in recovery is that you have to quit relationships
Mark
So that’s a pretty common scenario in recovery is that you have to quit relationships.
Justin
because they are triggering or they are nothing but unhealthy in terms of your recovery.
Mark
~ Sure. – Because they are triggering or they are nothing but unhealthy in terms of your recovery.
Justin
Right. And prior to recovery, you might have felt like it was the healthiest relationship in the world because they supported you,
Mark
~ Yeah. – And prior to recovery, you might’ve felt like it was the healthiest relationship in the world because they supported you, they loved you no matter what,
Justin
They loved you no matter what, whatever.
Mark
whatever it ended.
Justin
And it happens that that actually was a dysfunctional relationship in that it was
Mark
~ Yeah. – It happens that actually it was a dysfunctional relationship and that it was codependent or, you know,
Justin
codependent or, you know, or you know, your drinking buddy, like I said, and so they’re always
Mark
or you’re drinking body like I said. And so I was supporting you because they’re in it with you
Justin
supporting you because they’re in it with you versus recognizing like, no, I can’t support this.
Mark
versus recognizing like, no, I can’t support this. This is wrong, you know, and so again, it may have felt like a healthy beneficial relationship in your
Justin
This is wrong, you know. And so again, it may have felt like a healthy beneficial relationship in your dysfunction,
Mark
As you move out of that you recognize that’s the opposite of health. Wow sure
Justin
But as you move out of that you recognize that’s the opposite of health. That’s exactly what I don’t need.
Mark
Yeah
Justin
And having the, like you said, the very difficult decision in place to say, I have to quit that
Mark
Decision in place to say I have to quit that relationship. Yeah
Justin
relationship.
Mark
Honestly, I want to say that’s one of the one of the biggest down balls to recovery is relationships
Justin
And that can be really hard. And honestly, I want to say that’s one of the biggest downfalls to recovery is relationships
Mark
Oh sure.
Justin
and not wanting to quit those relationships or, you know,
Mark
Not wanting to quit those relationships or you know, you know, to use a better word,
Justin
you know, to use a better word, put boundaries in place to where maybe that
Mark
put boundaries in place. Sure. Maybe that relationship can continue, but in a new way, in that person’s willing to maintain
Justin
relationship can continue, but in a new way, if that person is willing to maintain those boundaries. But again, a lot of times that’s, that’s not even an option.
Mark
those boundaries. Yeah. But again, a lot of times that’s not even an option.
Justin
You put those boundaries and they want to smash through through them.
Mark
You put those boundaries and they want to smash through them and that’s when you recognize
Justin
And that’s when you recognize, you know, that that relationship has to be quit.
Mark
you know that. Not relationship. So I’m really glad you brought relationships up because I think it definitely makes me think of the recovery side.
Justin
So I’m really glad you brought relationships up because I think it definitely makes me think of the recovery side. And you know,
Mark
You know, like I said, even personal relationships where people are taking too much or, you know, I’m giving too much.
Justin
like you said, even personal relationships where people are taking too much or you know, I’m giving too much is maybe not
Mark
It’s not even their fault. It’s just I don’t have good boundaries in place.
Justin
even their fault. It’s just I don’t I don’t have good boundaries in place. And I think that’s where that coming back maybe in some ways
Mark
Yeah, and I think that’s where that if coming back maybe even some ways that that sensitivity,
Justin
that that sensitivity, I lose that sensitivity when I’m just
Mark
I lose that sensitivity when I’m just exposing myself to the same people in the same ways
Justin
exposing myself to the same people, same ways over and over.
Mark
over and over again.
Justin
Yeah. And I don’t necessarily recognize how that is affecting me.
Mark
And I don’t necessarily recognize how that is affecting me until I’m out of it.
Justin
Yeah. And until I’m out of it. And even in that, it’s amazing how little time it takes
Mark
And even in that, it’s amazing how little time it takes to actually expose myself to
Justin
to actually expose myself to that relationship again.
Mark
that relationship again.
Justin
And I’m right back in the same–
Mark
I’m right back into the same things, even if I’ve been out for years, I can expose myself
Justin
Yeah. –even if I’ve been out for a year. Yeah. I can expose myself to that same relationship.
Mark
to that same relationship and I fall back into that same role.
Justin
And I fall back into that same role. Yeah. And yeah, that’s just– that’s an interesting thing
Mark
And yeah, that’s just, that’s an interesting thing to think about from a addictions perspective.
Justin
to think about from an addictions perspective.
Mark
You know, when you think about it, you know, and even, you know, co-dependent relationships.
Justin
When you think about it, you know, and even kind of relationships.
Mark
And yeah.
Justin
Yeah. Yeah, not just addiction, but really any kind of–
Mark
Yeah, not just addiction, but really any kind of what we do call that pathology.
Justin
what would you call that pathology? Sure.
Mark
Sure. Where it can be triggering for that.
Justin
Where it can be triggering for that. Yeah.
Mark
Yeah.
Justin
Because we’ve talked in the past about family, right?
Mark
Because we’ve talked in the past about family, right?
Justin
Like going back into– you know, going back home, right?
Mark
Like going back home, right? Yeah.
Justin
and how we kind of fall right back into those old roles
Mark
We kind of fall right back into those old roles and maybe they don’t fit who we are now.
Justin
and maybe they don’t fit who we are now.
Mark
Yeah.
Justin
I think we’ve talked about that before, but.
Mark
Yeah. Differentiation.
Justin
Yeah, yeah, thinking differentiation.
Mark
Yeah. Thank you. No problem.
Justin
And that’s not really quitting,
Mark
And that’s not really quitting, but you know, it’s similar to this.
Justin
but it’s similar to these concepts of having boundaries.
Mark
Yeah. It’s, I think I would define that more as an aspect of growth.
Justin
~ I would define that more as an aspect of growth. – Yeah.
Mark
And I can have growth outside of that, but then I go back and it’s like I take on that
Justin
~ And I can have growth inside of that, but then I go back and it’s like I take on that old role
Mark
old role and it’s frustrating to my wife and my kids because they don’t know who I am.
Justin
that’s frustrating to my wife. – Yeah. – ‘Cause they don’t know who I am. and meet because this doesn’t feel right anymore.
Mark
Yeah, exactly. This doesn’t feel right. Yeah, you’re somebody different.
Justin
Yeah. There’s somebody different. The more distance you get from that old self, the more when you fall back into it,
Mark
And distance you get from that old self the more when you fall back into it, you feel
Justin
you go, ew, this doesn’t feel right.
Mark
right.
Justin
And I think that’s where other relationships are also valuable when we hear
Mark
Yeah. And I think that’s where other relationships are also valuable when we hear other people
Justin
other people say, do you notice you become a different?
Mark
say, do you notice you become somebody different? And what is that about, you know, around
Justin
And what is that about? Yeah. You know, you know, around that circumstance, around those people,
Mark
that circumstance around those people, that kind of thing? So, so yeah. Well, thanks for
Justin
that kind of things. Yeah. So yeah, that’s good. Well, thanks for sharing Justin. Yeah, thank you, Mark. Thanks for
Mark
sharing Justin. Thank you, Mark. Oh, hey, happy to do it.
Justin
bringing up the relational side because I’ve been happy to do
Mark
Well, no, no, that I appreciate the topic as well. Are we good? Are we good? Are we
Justin
it. It would have been a bummer to get through this without covering that side of things. That’s really good. So no, no, that I appreciate the topic as well. All right. Are we good? Are we good to end this segment? Yeah, I guess we’re
Mark
Are we good to end this segment? We’re not quitting. That’s right.
Justin
transitioning mark to the rest of our day. That’s not the podcast.
Mark
That’s how we see it.
Justin
I’ll see you.
Mark
Good.