Justin:

We’re back.

Mark:

We’re back.

Justin:

We’re back.

Mark:

It’s good to see ya.

Justin:

It’s good to see you, Mark.

Mark:

Glad you had a uh A nostalgic getaway.

Justin:

Yes. That’s that’s true. That’s exactly what it was. We uh speaking uh to clarify for the listener. We for Fourth of July we went up to well not just for Fourth of July, but for a couple weeks actually, we went up to Minnesota, which is where Minnesota where I’m from. Got to see some sights from my childhood

Mark:

and nice

Justin:

and Megan’s and yeah, it was a good time.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Nice.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah, that’s uh that’s a neat thing. I know I know uh when When we go back sometimes my kids get tired of me saying that’s where I went to school that you know, ’cause we’ve gone back so many times.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But this is the first time you’ve been able to take your kids back to be able to see something

Justin:

in five years or so. Oh you know, when we went last time. Maybe Mia would have remembered some of the stuff, but we didn’t we didn’t necessarily go to all the things either and it was last time we were there was for Christmas, so snow and that kind of

Mark:

yeah thing. Different different completely different environment at that point from July fourth to Christmas time.

Justin:

Speaking of different environment with inside my childhood home.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And the trees

Mark:

Oh really?

Justin:

Just transformed as like that’s not the same place. It can’t be. And it really is. But yeah, it just looks so different with all the mature trees around.

Mark:

I bet.

Justin:

When I rem you know

Mark:

Yeah, yeah.

Justin:

They weren’t mature trees.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That’s how old I am, you know. I’m a mature tree myself.

Mark:

How old are you, Justin? I’m a mature tree now. How many fingers do you hold up for that? You put them all up. Yeah. Well neat. I’m glad you had a good time.

Justin:

Yeah. And you too. You got to go see some your your own. Yeah, yeah.

Mark:

We had the wedding. Yeah. But like you say, we got to Pennsylvania not quite up to our our home, as I think of you know Chris and I. But yeah, it was good.

Justin:

New York being

Mark:

Yeah, that’s where Chris and I established our home is in Southern Tier New York. So yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, as part of our trip we went inside of Lake Superior, which is always cool. Yeah. Did when you go to up to New York New York, do you see Lake Here? Huron?

Mark:

No. I’ve been well my brother’s actually south of Erie, so I’ll see you know Lake Erie, that kind of thing.

Justin:

You’ve been there then?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Always fun to see.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

I feel like.

Mark:

Yeah, I forget the little aisle that’s there. It’s I think of l Pulaski but that’s no, either way. Yeah. Yep.

Justin:

There’s islands.

Mark:

It’s a P. It’s a P name. Yeah, I was thinking of Michigan.

Justin:

Yeah, there’s a cool island in Lake Michigan, right? Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, that has its own little rocks. What are the little rocks that have a little shimmer to ’em?

Justin:

I don’t know.

Mark:

But it they’re only in

Justin:

Linda knows she’s probably shouting it right now. Sorry, Linda Linda, you’ve become our Our our placeholder for any listener.

Mark:

Yeah. Any place where we can’t think of the word.

Justin:

Where we figure you’re shouting it on the other end.

Mark:

That’s right. That’s right.

Justin:

But yeah. I I didn’t know if my kids would be that impressed with Lake Superior because ocean, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But they were they were pretty blown away that they couldn’t see across it, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So that’s that was cool. Yeah. It really isn’t impressive Thing.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Anyway.

Mark:

Yes. Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and

Justin:

Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations. So what topic are we discussing today?

Mark:

Ah, well you you you brought it to the forefront, so I figured I’ll let you introduce it if you’d like.

Justin:

Alright, sure. So we’re gonna talk about quitting. And uh why are we talking about quitting? Well, um, I think quitting can be a polarizing topic in the sense that um quitting is generally looked at as being bad, you know? Um and I think, you know, in many cases it is, right? Um the reason it’s polarizing is because Sometimes you gotta quit, you know? So we we I think we’re gonna talk about, you know, when it makes sense and and what that stigma looks like and why there’s a stigma and Um yeah, and just kind of yeah, kind of exploring that that idea of quitting.

Mark:

When it makes sense, are there times when it doesn’t make sense?

Justin:

Quitting?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Well, sure. I mean I think that again that’s kind of the common I would say the common prevailing wisdom is that you don’t quit. You just don’t quit. You you stick to it. Um and I would agree with a lot of that, right? And that you need to have some stick to ness, right? Um, and be able to stick thing you know, stick it through stick through difficult things, push through, do hard things, you know, not quit when it when the go going gets tough, that kind of thing.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I think that’s very important. I think you would probably agree, right?

Mark:

Yeah, so what comes to mind for you? What what specific eras or times do you think of? for you specifically when you think when quitting comes to mind. A time when you maybe should have and didn’t or did and wish you wouldn’t have, that kind of thing. Is that do you have those experiences?

Justin:

Yeah, you always gotta get all personal with it. I’m gonna I’m gonna dig deep.

Mark:

It’s hot time to hold your breath, Jesse. We’re we’re s we’re going down.

Justin:

Going deep. Well I got on the diving board. Um Yeah, no, that’s a good question. I think uh it is a personal uh thing for me. I mean that’s why I kinda added to our topic list because there are have been times. Um I I may have mentioned it here on here before, but like nah, probably haven’t. But one of the th ways I I tend to stick to things too long. Mm. Um to the degree where you know, I should I should give something up sooner than I than I do. Um but the way that I kind of determine, okay, it’s time to move on from this thing is usually when the pain is is is too great, right? Like um it’s impacting family, it’s impacting, you know, kind of my psychic or psych psychology.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

What what’s the word for that? Mental health.

Mark:

Psychic. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Um or it’s just taking away from things that are more important.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Um and so often I get to the point where I realize I need to quit a thing after it’s already kind of negatively impacting my life. And um there’s a phrase I overuse in my life, kind of like the stick.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I brought that up on our trip quite a bit. That was people were real tired of it. It was fun. That’s giving me my sad claim to fame, the stick. Anyway , uh back to the uh let me go back deep again with you. He’s still down there. I gotta catch up.

Mark:

I’m okay. Um

Justin:

Uh, no, so the the phrase I like to use is the grace runs out. So essentially, you know, I feel like God gives us grace to endure and you know, do hard things and his grace is sufficient, right? And there are um lots of verses about how his grace, you know, equips us and enables us and gives us s and you know, from my perspective, supernatural abilities to be patient when the you should ki doesn’t make sense to be patient or stick to something when it feels like m you know, most people would quit or whatever. And I believe Grace enables a lot of that. Um versus like ta taking personal credit for being like uh whatever that personality trait is, I do believe there’s a huge amount of grace that comes along with that. Um And so what I that’s why I always describe it is it feels like when it’s time to quit, the grace ran out and now it’s kinda like the oil in a car running out, you know, there’s a leak, it’s all gone, now your car’s running on without any oil

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Use all friction, all heat. It feels like it’s gonna explode. Doesn’t make sense. It ran fine last month. Why is it you know, that kind of thing.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It kind of has that feel to it. And that’s often when I realize, oh, I need to pull the car over.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um

Mark:

would you say some of that though uh um I re I realize it sounds as if there’s a building that goes along with this to where it’s it’s it’s um like good things out of priority. In other words, what it began as a good thing, something that I could do, something I might have even felt led to do.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

But yet I stayed in too long. In other words, there was a season and I just tried to make this a lifetime.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

Is that what you’re kind of describing?

Justin:

Yes, exactly.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

And I I would say too, like, for for my particular personality, I don’t know that I’m great at seeing those signs of oh, that season is ended or is ending. Uh it’s kinda like I said, the oil’s gotta run out before I start looking around and go, Oh, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um, and I’ve just realized That’s one of the ways that I’ve learned God uses to show me. It’s quitting time. You know? And you know You could call it so many other things. That doesn’t sound like quitting. I just I feel like it’s a good polarizing word, right? But you know, seasonal, time to move on, whatever. But I mean, in a lot of ways, uh from my personality, it feels like I’m quitting and it feels wrong and bad and shameful. Does that make sense?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um, so that’s kind of where the polarizing nature comes in, where it’s definitely the right thing, the healthy thing. Um, the season is over, you know, the signs are clear, you know, and yet it feels shameful to me because it’s quitting, you know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Does that make sense?

Mark:

No, it makes sense. And I think uh uh it I appreciated as you were uh describing, you know, you mentioned different verses. I I think, you know, that that whole aspect of uh Galatians 6 where it talks about, you know, do not grow weary in doing good, for in season you know you will reap. You know, that kind of thing. And that’s, you know, and I think that can be one of those verses that we kind of hold on to when we go too long.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, but I think, you know

Justin:

Especially if you’re doing something

Mark:

Good.

Justin:

Good, right? Like that spiritually good whatever. Yeah. Like you have that perception. Yeah.

Mark:

And I and I think, you know, in a lot of cases, even, you know, like I think of e like Ephesians four where it talks about um, you know, not living as as the Gentiles in the futility of their thinking, which leads to a hardness of heart. You know, and I think that’s I think it is at times that hardness of heart that affects our ability to quit.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I can do it. I got this. My way. I’m gonna cut. Yeah. And I think sometimes we’re told, I mean, I would take that verse, you know, yeah, quit it. Quit living as the Gentiles in the futility of your thinking. you know, which leads to a hardness of heart. And I as you were we were talking about that in that process, I think about it as it comes to sometimes I want to continue doing the things that I want to do. you know, whether that’s, you know, working a job, you know, that I don’t, you know, find fulfilling or, you know, certain sh or or relationships. Relationships would be another area where it’s like, no. I’m holding on to this relationship because I can’t be alone and you know, so therefore I can’t give up. That would be but yet I’m at a stage of life, I’m in a season of life where now is the time to, you know, move on or change that relationship. because I’m holding on in my own strength in some ways because I’m scared to do it differently.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And I think so, I mean, I think

Justin:

Yeah. Relationships is yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, ’cause I think that’s where and I I like that the the Ephesians part because I think it gives us the ability to quit and it helps us to recognize at times Because I think when we talk about quitting, it’s more a matter of a sensitivity , of knowing like you described, that season’s over. And I think that takes a sensitivity and we lose that. when we kind of hey say to God, this is the way I’m gonna do it and this is what I’m s you know, in that, you know, I can I can make this work. And I because that’s what I run into so much, and you know, it’s like, yeah, you can make it work, but you’re also doing all the work in this relationship. And you may need to pull out of that relationship in some ways. And I and here again, I’m not always referring to a marital relationship. Sometimes I’m working, you know, with dating individuals and so forth. who, you know, it’s a little different when you’re married from my perspective. But if there’s if I’m if someone’s coming to me about a relationship and I don’t know, it’s like, oh hold on. Who would it seems as if you’re the one that’s doing all the work You know, and it’s okay to find someone else who actually wants to partner with you. Yeah. And so that I think that sensitivity to know or to be able to listen is a is an important part of that that quitting dynamic. But and it go ahead. There’s just more. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I think well, I think uh for me, and this is uh I can grant it, I definitely have personal experience. It was funny because actually uh before the fourth, um when when Chris and I were part of the church plant You know, I recognize that I was arrogant.

Justin:

You were part of a church plant before the fourth

Mark:

Yes. Yes. Many years ago when we and I thought up here again, I’m thinking of the conversations we’ve had and the, you know, but um Chris and I came to Wilmington as part of a church plan

Justin:

Cool.

Mark:

So we were

Justin:

many years ago.

Mark:

Many years ago. Two thousand and eight is was actually the the the

Justin:

Was it around the fourth?

Mark:

Uh no, actually we had uh July, I believe it was July eighth

Justin:

Okay, so we’re gonna be after the before the fourth part.

Mark:

Yeah, well, this is the this is the the beginning and the end. But long story short, we were part of that church plan. And it was one of those things where I was on a kind of a leadership in a leadership role. My pride and arrogance got the best of me because I wanted to stay that, but yet it was also a point where, you know, it was just wearing on us as a couple in a family and I I wasn’t able to see that we needed to pull back. You know? And so I think what my my pride caused issues there and then so I realized hey yeah we gotta maintain the family dynamic because ’cause church isn’t necessarily a higher priority than family. And I had made it up higher priority based on kind of that God’s work. This is God’s work, you know, and we can, you know, sometimes in our repro or what needs to be reprioritized, we can put church and serving other people. equal to God, which should be, you know, number one. Then, you know, your your wife and then family, those kind of things. So my priorities, long story short, my priorities were out of line. And I got to the point where we saw it and then we pulled back. And you know, but it it it always kind of lingered that I I combination we had done that wrong. you know, to quit on those individuals. And it you know, it was interesting because we actually got together with that couple that led the the church, the pastor of that church, uh, you know, Chris and Ashley. Before the fourth. Right before the fourth. They came over to our place. And so we really did have a nice time. you know, being able to say, yeah, it, you know, I apologize for what was ours. And, you know, they were able to kind of share, yeah, it did, you know, I was able to hear the fact that you know, our choice left them in kind of a lurch, you know, and I was able to, you know, we were able to apologize for that immaturity on our end. But you know, at the same time, you know, we were able to recognize they were able to kind of share and say, yeah, you know, back then He he was honestly w honest and willing enough to share. Yeah, I’m not sure I know any more than I did when I was back then where church plants are concerned. But he said, Yeah, you know, there was things that they would do differently as well And I was it was just kind of a healing conversation, I think, for both of us to be able to put it out there in the air and recognize that there was some of that shame and guilt like you talked about. for when we, you know, leave something. And I don’t think I necessarily was dealing with it from uh the sensitivity that I just described either. You know, that I could do, but that’s also, you know Well, twenty-three, you know, fifteen years ago, give or take, and there’s been a lot of changes in that process. But that was one of the things that kind of came to mind. for me when you brought up the topic of quitting yeah was that church plant and how that got all mixed up in uh our lifestyle. And I and uh the other part for me that’s quitting, I think of uh Old Testament, I go back to the Old Testament like Chronicles. Where you had these guys that followed after the Lord for so many, you know, they they were like David. They did the things that David did. Until they turned away from God, you know, that kind of thing. And so often it was that that later on in life type thing and that’s I think that in in some ways when I think of quitting that becomes almost a a fear.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

If you will.

Justin:

Like a legacy killer.

Mark:

Yeah, that I could go so far doing it well, so long doing it well, doing it God’s way.

Justin:

Yeah, you heard that phrase, don’t quit before the miracle happens. Exactly.

Mark:

But yeah, I think, you know, I think there again, I think it’s a matter of priorities that need to change or did change as I look back you know, and think about it scripturally. So yeah. But those uh that’s my uh my experience on

Justin:

Yeah, that’s uh s similar to my personal one in that, you know, you did ask me a per my personal thing and I ‘m managed to skip answering, but uh it was very similar to yours in that I was um you know the the director of Celebrate Recovery for a few years and at the end I mean that’s that’s how I describe I mean really I’ve realized in the last decade that that’s pretty much my cue when I should quit, when I should move on, you know, is when the grace runs out is how I describe it. It’s just like Okay, everything was working and now it’s not and the the the the plates can no longer be juggled in before. And that um you know earlier you said I can do it uh you know, this idea that I need to do it. I I can do it. For me it’s more like I should do it. Why am I not able to now when I was before and just kind of that’s why I was saying earlier that there’s so much grace there that we don’t necessarily even see and we tend to take credit for it, you know. Sure. And it’s that that oil, the lubrication, and that’s what I call grace in the sense that things are working and you’re able to handle things as as they come up, problems, solve them, not lose your cool. All that kind of stuff. It it just feels right. It feels like you’re doing the right thing. You’re in the right place. And then sometimes that stops. And there’s not a visible thing you can look at and go, that’s why it stopped or you know, that person or that thing or that event, it’s like, no, it just seems like it the oil started running out for no good reason. There must be a leak or something, you know

Mark:

how do you separate those two? Because I think I think there are some circumstances, some difficult hurdles, if you will. that we probably do need to address or people we need to, you know, talk have difficult conversations with.

Justin:

Yeah, you’re not supposed to quit it the first sign of

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So how do you separate those two? That that grace running out, even though there might be that difficult dynamic, that difficult individual. you know, or individuals or, you know, a lack of well, I think of CR, you know, just in the in the context of a lack of, you know, whether it’s child care or worship team or you know all of those

Justin:

difficult situations.

Mark:

Yeah. Obstacles if you will.

Justin:

Yeah, obstacles. No, that’s a good question. I I don’t think there’s a perfect answer, but I will say Again, I like the oil analogy because I think number one there’s regular send uh the uh maintenance things you do.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

You should do. And if you don’t, you’re you can expect things to start going off the rails, right? Like I think that’s part of it is are you no longer doing the things that you know you need to do to maintain this vehicle like You know what I mean?

Mark:

Putting oil in the engine.

Justin:

Putting oil in the engine, yeah. And I feel like um that ca you can start to look at signs or symptoms and say, well, I I haven’t been putting oil in for a long time and that’s part of it, you know. And for that, you know, you go why I need to put oil in and then you then you do that. And um I I think too, like with the the o the oil analogy, like you do have signs before you’re You’re broken down on the side of the road.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Typically. You know, your engine’s getting a little hot, whatever. You have opportunities to to make some changes. Um And some older vehicles, you get all the signs, you put oil in, you do the things, and it still gets worse and overheats and it’s just the car is old and Seals are shot and whatever whatever the thing is, right? Like it’s it’s time. It’s warning. You know, it’s warning. And I think that’s true. in these types of things where sometimes it’s a fixable thing, sometimes you try uh you attempt to fix it and you realize, hmm, that wasn’t it either and you try again, mm-hmm, that wasn’t it either Right. And you start to realize, like, well, crap, you know, maybe this engine’s worn out. You know what I mean?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I think for me that’s that’s kind of the ex it’s not like I don’t I think my struggle is holding on too long, so I you know, uh as far as like quitting at the first thing, I don’t feel like that’s that’s my personality at all. I think it’s kind of the opposite, but Um I definitely don’t believe that’s what we’re meant to do is look at every struggle as a sign. Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah, yeah

Justin:

I believe we’re supposed to persevere in in, you know, uh uh yeah. It is that’s why this is tough.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Is I think there Is also an important sensitivity to use your phrase, right? To recognize like this is different and this this hits different, you know? And for me Again, it really just can’t comes down to difficult situations previously were difficult but manageable and w when it shifts from manageable to Well crap, that plate just cracked and broke and now I feel like this one’s about to crack and break. Yeah, you know, it’s just kind of th it just hits different. You know what I mean? Um I can’t explain it other than to say I do believe that’s One of the clearest ways God has made known to me that it’s time to move on from something is when the plates start cracking and falling and like uh I dunno I think I’m a little bit stubborn and so that’s That’s the way that it gets my attention is. Um and I’d like to be more sensitive, right? To have a better clue in that. But it’s I think that’s the stick, right? So The good side of the stick is the perfect perseverance and I do have this ability to just stick in something while wh for a long time while it’s hard. The bad side of the stick is not having that sensitivity to know, all right, well It’s my season is complete and now it’s time to move on and do that in grace.

Mark:

Yeah, I was thinking about your analogy of the cracking plate and the the spinning of the plates, if you will. You know, because I I think here again when we’re talking about quitting when we have too many plates spinning you know, and we’re trying to maintain a lot of plates in the air. I think there is that point where we come to a realization, okay. I can hand this plate off to someone else even before it drops and breaks. And I think that’s a that’s a a good leadership dynamic, if you will. to be able to know what I can delegate because sometimes I think we hold on to too long because we see ourselves as the only one that can.

Justin:

Again, I always shift my mindset when you he say the only one who can or I sh I I can or I think should. Replace can with should. I’m the only one who should.

Mark:

I hear ya.

Justin:

You know, so that’s the struggle for me personally is handing things off. It’s like I feel like I shouldn’t

Mark:

Because you’re the only one that’s capable.

Justin:

No.

Mark:

No.

Justin:

It’s not about it.

Mark:

Help me understand the should then. Why should I

Justin:

feel like as the leader I should do the hard things. Like I should shield others from, you know, whatever. And so if it’s hard, I should be doing it.

Mark:

Oh, okay.

Justin:

Does that make sense?

Mark:

I hear where you’re coming from.

Justin:

My natural inclination is to say it’s hard, so I should do it. I shouldn’t have someone else You know what I mean?

Mark:

I do. I uh what I’m hearing is in this process, say we got ten plates spinning, just as an example. We’re gonna we’re gonna automatically in some ways, I think by default, we’re gonna prioritize the plates unknowingly or or or by default. We’re gonna we’re gonna make sure we’re keeping some of them spinning And those those those ones number one and two, like your family, your relationship with God, you’re gonna do your best to keep those spinning. You’re not gonna hand them off to anyone else. Because those are the plates that from your perspective, those are the ones that you should spin. You’re the only one from my perspective that can spin those plates. And yeah ,

Justin:

that’s such a simple phrase you just said, but that’s not often in I mean, I would say that’s a struggle for a lot of people to even realize what you just said and live by that. Even for me, sometimes Th I mean that’s why it’s hard to quit. But

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

But ultimately I do come back to that truth.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

And that’s what kind of pushes me over the edge and say, Yeah, it’s time to quit that is because these two plates are s I’m starting to see ’em shake and they shouldn’t.

Mark:

Yes. Right. Yeah.

Justin:

So I mean, I I just want to take just pause real quick to say that’s significant. And if you’re listening, like hear that. I got that. You know, does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Carry on.

Mark:

No, no, and that’s where I’m saying, you know, some of the so when we get to plates nine, eight, nine, and ten, you know, those are ones that maybe we need to consider from a leadership dynamic handing off to others who, you know, are equally, if not better, equipped to spin those plates, you know, and that I think that’s where that can and should can kind of get mixed up when I, you know, as I see you know, that someone else may actually be able to do that better. Yeah. I think that’s a that’s a a sensitivity.

Justin:

Yeah. It’s My struggle in that really has a a lot to do with okay, I’m sh I’m trying to spin ten plates.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

And I need to get rid of this tenth one. It’s too much. And I see Mark and I’m like, oh, Mark could do it. He he could spin that plate probably better than I can. And then I look at him and I go, wait. It looks like maybe he has nine plates spinning too.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Okay, so maybe this other oh wait, they got eight plates and you know, one of those plates is really heavy. Whatever. And I start assessing other people’s abilities or you know like not abilities but uh I feel I just feel bad. I feel bad asking someone to take the plate because I’m like it’s hard for me to spin it’s gonna be hard for you And I don’t want to put that on you. I feel like I’m supposed to do the hard things is I’m at the you know, at in these particular cases at the top of this food chain and I should be shielding you from that hard thing. Not not Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah, that makes perfect sense because if uh the way I’m hearing it, you know, you tend to assess other people’s probably

Justin:

incorrectly.

Mark:

At times we’re all

Justin:

It’s probably a stick thing, right? Where I think it’s good that

Mark:

I’m with your family now. Drop the stick, spin the plate. No, I just but yes, being able to recognize though that if we if you will on the other end of that is you can be all giving someone a gift.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

When I think even of CR, you know, and that transition of leadership. Yeah. you know, being able to hand that off to someone, you know, in a specific way, I believe that is a gift that says, hey You have the abilities. I see these abilities in you. I’m not necessarily counting your plates for you, but Is this is this a plate that you would be interested that you feel you have a desire to spin?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because I am honestly looking to, you know, not spin this plate anymore.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

And that can be, you know, a ministry, I think that can be a, you know, a a a bunch of different things.

Justin:

And I want to be clear, like I’m not saying the way I do I feel like I’m doing it right. I’m just saying that’s my bent, right? So the way I augment my weaknesses in that way is I’m like, well talk to someone like you. and you’ll give me that advice about you should consider giving it to them or whatever. Like or, you know, just being able to say, like, Am I crazy or should I be giving this away or whatever? And and the answer is like, uh yeah, you know, and then I’m like Okay, good. You know, it’s like uh it’s that should kind of fades a little bit into more of a I should actually give it away in instead of I should be shielding everyone from this and doing it myself. Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah, it makes sense ’cause it and I think that’s the difficulty of should at times yeah is I can take that and spin it in my own mind so much that it becomes well there isn’t any other choice.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

There this is the way. And I should.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And it’s when I talk with someone else, it’s like, hmm, there might be another way.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And and maybe I’m robbing someone else. by me kinda just doing this my own way.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

In my own energy.

Justin:

Back to the idea of quitting. Yeah for me that it becomes time when all those things that I do that usually work, like talking to someone else, getting advice, and just all the tools that I’ve learned, right? When they no longer are keeping me above water, right? Okay, I think I think it’s time to consider moving on that this season is over. Um I guess I would I’d like to transition to that the idea of let’s talk about what it means to quit well.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Because I think I mean in your own story you said You had that good conversation with a pastor, right, and his wife and kind of how that um how that left them and that kind of thing. And I’ve I’ve gone through similar situations where Um just maybe not quitting well. Maybe I’m not putting that on you. I’d love to hear your thoughts on that. But I but that it came to mind for me is like Can we do a better job of quitting well? Because since there is such a stigma on quitting, I think often we wait till the last minute and then we explode. We qu we explode quit. You know what I mean?

Mark:

No, I hear that. Quit quit well almost seems like an oxymoron. They’re opposite ends of the

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I think there’s correct me or you know, I’m I’m sure you agree, but like I would love to hear your thoughts on what does it mean? What do you see? How do you consider that we can quit well? Does that make sense?

Mark:

Sure. And I and I think you bring up a great point. Um as far as so often when, you know, the heat has built and we haven’t necessarily addressed any issues, you know we have this volcano this volcano type quitting where everything erupts yeah and there’s lava everywhere and there’s heat more heat hitting people that shouldn’t be being hit.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

You know, and so therefore we just separate from there.

Justin:

Yep

Mark:

You follow me.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s a the car blows up and now you’re stuck on the side of the road. It’s like, well, we’re quit. We’re done.

Mark:

Exactly. And I think so often from my to And a and here again I’m we I’m not trying to uh I’m huh I’m massaging the word if you will quit I can I think transition is a is a good thing and to be able to think of to be able to think about it in the in the dynamic of Saying, okay, yeah, there’s a transition that needs to be made here. And in order for a good transition to happen, we have to start talking about this, you know, and Uh y number one, I, you know, talk with it a talk with talk with God about that transition. I talk with my spouse about that transition. I talk with my family. you know, than other people, you know, to be able to say, okay, you know me, you know who I am, and this is where I’m at, this is what I’m feeling, this is what I’m thinking. And you know, what are your thoughts on that kind of thing to where uh and and granted I’m not

Justin:

collaborative effort on that?

Mark:

I’m not necessarily taking an issue that I have with someone else. That’s That’s not correct. You know, I’m not taking a one-on-one issue to a bunch of other people to talk with them about that. You know, if I have an issue with an individual in a in a ministry or in a yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, when it comes to more of a relational grace running out relationally. Yeah.

Mark:

But I think we do have to, you know, be able to talk with that individual if it if that’s the case having conversations and then, you know, if that doesn’t go well, you know, maybe you know, definitely bringing other people in, you know, to be able to say, okay, this is where we’re at, we’re at an impasse, you know Because I think that’s part of a a good transition or quitting well, if you will, to be able to say, okay, yeah, there is a there is a there is an issue here and we’re at an impasse or you know I’m uh the the grace is running out on this and I think at that time you know when when I’ve had those conversations And you know, if someone is able to take up that plate, you know, and spin it, that’s a good transition and I can step away.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think there is a and I That being said, I also think if I’ve done all that work and someone else hasn’t come forward or doesn’t adopt that plate. I may just have to let that plate quit spinning in general and recognize, okay, it it was a it was a vacuum that didn’t need to be filled type thing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And that’s okay too.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

It wasn’t for me and it by me stepping away if it really needs to be done, someone else will do it.

Justin:

Yeah, that was that’s great, yeah. I think there is a dis some interesting distinctions between relational kind of the relational side of this or um kind of

Mark:

Occupational, if you will.

Justin:

Sure, occupational

Mark:

things that I do.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s good. Um Yeah, and I think uh letting the plate fall is a scary proposition when you feel like that was my plate to carry. You know, it’s like sure when it comes to the point. I think that that for me is one of the hardest points where you go, well crap. I might have to let this thing fall. It feels wrong. It feels bad. That’s where the shame, the guilt comes in. And I think ultimately for me, counsel is a big part of that to recognize, well There’s no reason for shame or guilt because, you know, it’s clear. You know what I mean?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um and I need that. I like I need that third party voice telling me that. And sometimes A a lot of times the Holy Spirit is the one who kicks up that conversation or ends it, right? To say, This is this is my what I desire for you, you know. So I’m I’m I’m trying to be in tune, but I’m also like, Am I crazy or am I hearing this wrong? You know, and I I like to get uh other voices because I just don’t trust myself very well, you know, when it comes to that. But um relationally it can be very difficult uh for a lot of reasons, right? It’s ’cause you’re basically saying, I’m running out of grace for you. Uh huh. Right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And uh how do you have that conversation? Well it’s hard, but I think it’s important. Um Yeah, and then yeah, transitioning I again, it’s it’s hard it’s like I really feel like there needs to be a distinction between relational and occup using the word occupational, but really kind of any uh positional type thing.

Mark:

Things we do.

Justin:

Yeah. Things we do. Yep. Cause I think occupationally things we do, whatever. Um It’s about how you know transitioning is about communication and be about having some some buffer. I think it’s about time and communication. It’s about saying, hey This is my goal, my plan, just to quit doing this thing, whatever it is. Let’s work together to figure out what that looks like. And by this time uh that plate will fall one way or another. You know, I think that’s an important part of it too, because some organizations or opportunities, they’ll just continue to use you until you drop the plate.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So if you don’t have a very clear definition of what that time frame looks like, I feel like I feel I feel like that’s a healthy thing in terms of quitting well, is being able to say, you know, this is a the amount of time I have to give to this transition, I’d love to do what I can in that time to to allow that transition to occur, whether it’s helping find a replacement or training a replacement that you find or what you know how

Mark:

you know.

Justin:

Um, I think that’s good. And I can definitely say there have been times I have not Transitioned well, right? Well, it’s it’s been like, well, it’s time and and the conversation was. Sorry, it’s time to move on. And and I, you know. I can say that those times I’m not the most proud of, right? Like I’d much rather have been able to look back and say, I helped them trans transition well.

Mark:

Sure. Um How would you say as we’re as you’re making that clarification, what would be some of the differences you would see between what how we are supposed to do a relational transition versus uh occupational or things we’re doing.

Justin:

Well, for one, it’s not like handing off a thing.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Right? Like uh a a thing to do and saying, you know, if Basically, I’m done with this relationship in five months. Between that then and now, you need to figure out how to do these things that I was doing. Uh-huh. Like that feels like a it doesn’t feel like it fits, but y you’re smiling like maybe it’s not that different, but

Mark:

Well and I and I as that’s what when you were making that it’s it’s not that I would say they’re always completely different either.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Is kind of, you know , because I think I think as a When you were sharing boundaries comes to mind.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, within relationships. And I think there is something to be said. And granted, the type of relationship Even as you use the word uh grace, I think of um 40 days of purpose, that uh EGR Um extra grace required. Some people have are are are EGR. You know, they have there’s and I think I can have ongoing long-term relationships with people who require extra grace.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And yet I also know that.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I that’s an awareness that I have.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So that I’m not necessarily I’m gonna shape my day in such a way that is gonna interact with that individual on a different timetable. And I am gonna have some boundaries at times because, you know, that person has a di may have a difficult time, you know. Saying, well, you only have this much time. It’s like, yep, I only have this much time. Now granted, is that is that grace on my part? I I think it’s still grace, you know, to be able to be of help, but at the same time

Justin:

in those situations the op has to do with A lack of self-awareness on the other side’s part. And so therefore you have to have the awareness for them.

Mark:

Sure. And I and I think that’s still

Justin:

if the relationship is going to be there, that’s how it has to happen because that self awareness isn’t there on that side’s part. And I think there’s that’s the EDR, right?

Mark:

Right. And that’s where the s it’s still I think it still comes back to being able to communicate and say, no, I I can’t do I’m not going to. It’s not that I can’t. It’s not, it’s that I I don’t have the ability to spend that much time because Otherwise, I’m starting to affect these other plates that I have prioritized. Not that you’re not, you know, an individu uh, you know, a person Created in God’s image with, you know, wonderful design and you know, that kind of thing. Yes. You just

Justin:

do all the priorities.

Mark:

Correct.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

And sometimes certain individuals want to be the sole priority. And I think, you know, we have to the same way, we have to have those difficult conversations in such a way that says, okay, yeah. Because when we do, that person might be able to recognize in some ways, okay, yeah, this is this this is a pattern for me. You know, I tend to cling to people too much.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I want them to be my soul you know, help.

Justin:

Yeah. Go ahead.

Mark:

My everything. Yeah. You’re you’re looking up I just you could go go for it.

Justin:

It’s just Keep talking.

Mark:

Oh, I can do that. But no, I and I so I think there is a difference between how we handle people versus how we handle things.

Justin:

So you agree.

Mark:

And yet I’m also gonna recognize relationships are a thing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So I think it’s important to be able to say, okay, yeah, is this thing, this relationship, beneficial? And it doesn’t have to be solely beneficial, but is it is it beneficial? And it can, and I think we can look at that relationship and say, yeah, it’s beneficial, even if it is just beneficial to you. But it’s typically not. It’s a relation a sound relationship is gonna be reciprocal.

Justin:

Right. And there’s a continuum to use your phrase of beneficial to negative, right? Like Some relationships have negative are um uh they hurt us more than they help. Right. So you can’t just say is this relationship beneficial or not? To you and to me, it’s also but also is it hurting me? In other words, going back to the plate thing, is it requiring more plates than I have room for, right? Like

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Or is our interactions uh you taking in a way that is painful, you know, or you hurting, you know, just directly.

Mark:

And I think there’s a line there. But I’m gonna see even a even a relationship that um may seem one-sided, I’m not saying that’s not beneficial to me. because that’s an area where I can serve other people.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

You know. It’s and that doesn’t make it negative, you know, to use the terminology.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s why that’s actually why I wanted to make the different or differentiate between a negative and just lacking in benefit because lacking in benefit doesn’t mean don’t have that relationship. Like you said, there are gonna be relationships where you are meant to give in that way and you are meant to

Mark:

And they’re then they’re still beneficial.

Justin:

Yes, they’re still beneficial because you’re meant to give and that’s a benefit to you. Right. Like

Mark:

to both.

Justin:

To both, yes.

Mark:

At that point. Yeah. No doubt.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You you were uh you were did you find what you were looking for? Oh you were just sending a text to Megan. I get it. I understand. No, that’s okay too. But yeah, that’s w that’s where I’m at with that dynamic cause to where I don’t I think relationships and it it’s gonna could depend on the person. Um, but I think relationships can be more difficult.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, than things. Yeah. You know.

Justin:

Yes. Yeah, I th I think so too. And honestly, when I brought the subject up, the concept of relationships didn’t occur to me at all.

Mark:

Oh, okay.

Justin:

Right? It was very circumstantial jobs, okay callings, seasons. It was all about kind of that occupational side of we’re e that’s the phrase we’re using right now to differentiate between but yeah, there it wasn’t relational. So when you brought that I’m like, oh interesting. Yeah, we should definitely I mean it’s I’m glad we’re talking about this, but So I can’t say I’ve given that a lot of thought, but I think like y I agree with you that that’s definitely the harder side. Um, it definitely makes me think of recovery in that that’s a huge component of a a healthy recovery plan is replacing people, places, and things that are triggers or, you know, you know, that whole thing. Drinking buddies, you know, are triggers or patterns. that would cause you to fall back into that addiction. And so there is that’s a pretty common scenario in recovery is that you have to quit relationships.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Because they’re they are triggering or they are nothing but unhealthy in terms of your recovery.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right? And prior to recovery, you might have felt like it was the healthiest relationship in the world because they supported you, they loved you no matter what, whatever and it it happens that there actually was a dysfunctional relationship in that it was codependent or uh you know or you know the your drinking buddy like I said and so they’re always supporting you because they’re in it with you. versus recognizing like, no, I can’t support this. This is wrong. You know, and so again, it may have felt like a healthy, beneficial relationship in your dysfunction, but as you move out of that you recognize that’s the opposite of health.

Mark:

Wow. That’s sure.

Justin:

That’s exactly what I don’t need. And having the like you said, the very difficult decision in place to say I have to quit that relationship.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And that can be really hard. And honestly, I want to say that’s one of the one of the biggest downfalls to recovery. is relationships.

Mark:

Oh sure.

Justin:

And not wanting to quit quit those relationships or, you know, you know, to use a better word, put boundaries in place to where maybe that relationship can continue but in a new way if that person’s willing to maintain those boundaries.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But again, a lot of times that’s that’s not even an option. You put those boundaries and they want to smash through through them and that’s when you recognize, you know, that that relationship has to be quit So th I’m really glad you brought relationships up because I think it definitely makes me think of the recovery side. In, you know, like you said, even personal relationships where people are taking too much or, you know, I’m giving too much, is maybe not even their fault. It’s just I don’t I don’t have good boundaries in place.

Mark:

Yeah And I think that’s where that if coming back maybe even some ways that that sensitivity. I lose that sensitivity when I’m just exposing myself to the same people in the same ways. over and over again and I don’t necessarily recognize how, you know, that is affecting me.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And until I’m out of it. And it’s and even in that, it’s amazing how how little time it takes to actually, you know, expose myself to that relationship again and I’m right back into the same things. Even have even if I’ve been out for years, I can expose myself to that same relationship and I fall back into that same role.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And yeah, that’s just that’s uh that’s an interesting thing to think about from a addictions perspective, you know, when you think about it, you know, and even, you know, codependent relationships and yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, not just addiction, but really any kind of what would you call that pathology?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um, where it can be triggering for that, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Because we’ve talked in the past about Family, right? Like going back into you know, going back home, right? And how we kind of fall right back into those old roles and maybe they don’t fit who we are now.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I think we’ve talked about that before.

Mark:

Differentiation.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, thank you. Differentiation. Um and that’s not really quitting, but you know, it’s similar to this these concepts.

Mark:

I would define that more as an aspect of growth.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I can have growth outside of that, but then I go back and it’s like I take on that old role and it’s frustrating to my wife and my kids because they don’t know who I am

Justin:

And meet.

Mark:

Yeah. Exactly.

Justin:

This doesn’t feel right anymore.

Mark:

You’re somebody different.

Justin:

The more distance you get from that old self, the more when you fall back into it, you go Ew, this doesn’t feel right.

Mark:

Yeah. And I and I think that’s where other relationships are also valuable when we hear other people say Do you notice you become somebody different? And what is that about?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, around that circumstance, around those people, that kind of thing. So so yeah.

Justin:

That’s good.

Mark:

Well thanks for sharing Justin.

Justin:

Yeah, thank you, Mark. Thanks for bringing up the relational side because I’ve many

Mark:

happy to do it.

Justin:

been a bummer to get through this without covering that side of things. That’s a really good sign.

Mark:

Well no. No that I appreciate the topic as well.

Justin:

All right.

Mark:

Are we good? Are we good to end this segment?

Justin:

Yeah, I think we’re not quitting. We’re transitioning, Mark, to the rest of our day.

Mark:

That’s right.

Justin:

That’s not the podcast.

Mark:

That’s how we see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot click Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.