Mark:

So what’s been on your mind this week, Justin?

Justin:

Well, at the forefront is lack of hot water.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Due to a water heater apparently stopping yesterday for no good reason.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That’s at the forefront.

Mark:

So in reality the the the cold shower has just coagulated the blood in your body and it’s just yeah you’re having a hard time. Yeah. Flowing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That’s good.

Justin:

What about you?

Mark:

In the sense that yeah, it’s a good thing to experience. Makes us thankful for when we have hot water.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

Yeah. It’s always I’m always amazed that the uh the difference in ground temperature, how it affects the cold water. Cause like in the summertime you can’t really get cold water,

Justin:

right?

Mark:

You know, to get refreshing in the shower. But in the sum in the in the wintertime you can get some pretty refreshing water coming out of that.

Justin:

Some people do call that kind of water refreshing. I agree

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. No.

Justin:

I was telling you earlier, of course, that taking that cold shower, my fingers Basically they just went white and then when I was done showering, they just started tingling.

Mark:

Yeah. that breathing pattern that goes along with that little bit of shock and then you get on the other side of it and it’s like, oh, this is not a big deal.

Justin:

Wait, you can get on the other side.

Mark:

Yeah, oh yeah. And it’s a it’s a good opportunity to practice your breathing because you’re very conscious, you know, in that moment when that shocky feeling that When that cold water’s coming down across your body, it’s like

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Well, I think I missed the opportunity to embrace the opportunity.

Mark:

You know, after we’re done recording, you could just go back in and just hop in that cold shower. while you’re uh while you have that awareness.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But mm Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations.

So yeah.

Justin:

What’s new with you?

Mark:

Oh, seems like a lot of stuff new. And you know, yeah, it’s just um I’m I’m grateful for a lot of new stuff. A lot of new clients.

Justin:

Cool.

Mark:

Yeah, it is. And just and just uh I guess I just seeing like recurring themes of God’s faithfulness as you know you experience new clients and a desire to offer hope and you know that kind of thing. And yeah, it’s just been really neat. And I think in some ways I’ve been uh probably more aware of it. with the whole, you know, Asbury College thing as far as, you know, that whether you want to call it a revival or not, but that that outpouring of God’s spirit in that in that place at this time with uh this generation to a certain degree. And I don’t I don’t I don’t say that necessarily. I mean I’m not sure we’re always trendy and by the time we put a recording out it might be, you know, a little later than the but that’s what that’s what’s been on my mind this week. Mm-hmm. Just that uh that faithfulness, I think that we can see if we’re if we’re willing to look for it, I think we can see it, you know, in every generation. that aspect of how God has moved in some way. Does that make sense?

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. I think because Even this Asbury Park thing, it’s cool because every time I’ve been reading about it, it’s like they talk about how this same thing happened in I think the seventies or something, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

At literally the same college.

Mark:

Exactly. Sure.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think, you know, and I d I was listening to a fellow on another podcast, you know, he was a senior. He’s actually a teacher. He’s actually a professor there now.

Justin:

Oh wow.

Mark:

And he was a senior there in the 70s when he occurred.

Justin:

That’s cool.

Mark:

Yeah. And it was uh and he you know, he talked about, you know, an outpouring that happened in the thir in the forties, excuse me.

Justin:

Wow

Mark:

as well. So it it’s just kind of a newties

Justin:

they’re like, this happened in the Thirties too.

Mark:

In the forties, yeah. Yeah, every thirty years. And it makes me wonder, you know, yeah, we’re, you know basically 2023 and what happened, but it makes me wonder how many pourings we’ve missed out.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I’m not yeah, I’m not saying it’s necessarily a media thing, but I’m sure You know, I it it just it just reminds me that I think God is faithful to every generation. in some ways to be able to just pour out and and have these opportunities to be able to say, okay, this is what I am, this is, this is who I am, I’m accessible And I just want you to know that I’m here. And I think each generation gets that opportunity in ways that Honor God. Or or I I think in some ways God honors Jesus through that. You know, it’s oh you know, that glorification type thing. I think it’s something we get to do every day as far as how we glorify, but I think it’s I think those outpourings are God’s way of glorifying his son and saying, okay, this is the access, this is the way And I desire relationship. I desire to be present in your life. And it’s like you don’t even have to hide from me because I’ll come. You know, I’ll come find you. And and then that of course that makes me always wonder, you know, there’s there’s that part of me that wonders, okay, what is it about that institution? You know, and the the individual I was listening to talked about it from the sense of, you know, uh he um I forget the guy, uh Jonathan Edwards. He he you know he said some of the the the the strongest writing about revival was by Jonathan Edwards in his opinion. And he was talking about con uh confession is typically what routinely leads to this outpouring. And I was thinking about that, you know, I think in some cases even in my own life. how just more so recently here I’ve had that desire. I think in some cases it’s it’s routinely been there. From an aspect of saying, okay, and I think we’ve even talked about it before in other podcasts, um, this is bigger than me. I want to be about doing things that are bigger than me. And so I need your help. And I think that is an acknowledgement of who we are in in comparison to who God is and his ability to move on our behalf. But I see that as a little different than confession because I think confession is that ability to recognize those ways that I have Tried to do things in my own strength. And for me, you know, more so recently here, I’ve been wrestling with my striving versus my dependence. And, you know, that’s been something that I’ve been trying to, you know, be more conscious about. Because, like you say, you know, in in our culture, you know, people people may um value that um independent ability to do things. And I think, you know, for me that can even become a sense of pride or arrogance that if I don’t want if I’m not mindful of it, you know, I I I think I think I can do this. And I I’d s I’ve just been more mindful of that.

Justin:

Hm.

Mark:

Does that make sense?

Justin:

Yeah, and yet, you know, he certainly gives us a lot of ability, right? Like so it’s It’s uh almost natural for us to go, um, yeah, I can do this because you know through his grace and strength he’s allowed us to do a lot of other things prior to and so it’s

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Of course I can take this one on too and in some senses that’s okay, right? Sure. Because it’s part of the confidence that y you know we’ve gained through again his grace which we probably aren’t g giving credit for fully all always.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um But it is the I would say the natural um outpouring of continual dependence on him is perceived abilities to do a lot of things.

Mark:

Yeah. And I and I think you’re right. I think, you know, there is that that talent dynamic. that we see in scripture, you know, because I think he does give us talents, you know, whether they’re actual, you know, abilities or, you know, just resources that we have at our disposal. And yet, I think, you know, I recognize that God wants us to use them for a reason. And yet, you know, I think for me personally it becomes about, okay. These aren’t necessarily mine just to be used to do what I want to do. There’s a purpose in it.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And sometimes I’m not always mindful of uh you know, reflecting w about that and saying, okay, God, what do you want me to do with these versus what I’m striving to do with these?

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

And I think that’s where it’s been just a little more I’ve become a little more aware recently. And so yeah, that’s kind of a that’s kind of a neat thing to be able to reflect on, especially at this time, you know, when you’re you’re you know, if you’re aware.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I mean, yeah. Go ahead.

Justin:

Uh this is back to the at uh Asbury thing.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

A little bit, but like Or it kind of ties into our typical conversations, but is there have you found that the at the idea of revival is polarizing in any way?

Mark:

Oh, certainly. Yeah.

Justin:

And and how would you say that that has been true?

Mark:

Well in

Justin:

in your experience?

Mark:

I guess I guess I uh I’m looking at it now and I’m just saying if if I heard about it through a text message, a group text message And I’m I’m willing to recognize that, you know, as I’ve sought, you know, opportunities to hear and you know that kind of thing. I’ve I’ve learned some, but it’s interesting that it’s not necessarily newsworthy. You know, from my perspective. It’s not like it’s it’s part of the breakdown of the evening news, if you will. You follow me And it’s like, I can’t think of too many other gatherings of this size, you know, where people are continually, you know, actually traveling to an area to experience I’ll call it a, you know, a movement to worship. And, you know, by i in this generation and yet there it hasn’t it hasn’t necessarily made a news feed that I’ve, you know, up uh

Justin:

that you that you

Mark:

Yeah, a media uh you know, just kind of a a general media news feed. I haven’t seen it. I’m not saying it hasn’t happened, but I’m just saying I haven’t seen it.

Justin:

Yeah. You know what’s so cool about this though? Y y you know why it’s kind of grown and gotten crazy and, you know, you know about it.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Why do you know why?

Mark:

Oh, d I d I do not well, media

Justin:

What media

Mark:

could play into that.

Justin:

Not the media that you were just talking about.

Mark:

No, no, it’s social media.

Justin:

Social media.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So that I’ve read several articles. you know, about it just kind of, you know, whenever one pops up in my social media, I like to read about it, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And um that is the thing that’s kind of the common thread across all these articles is like it people their you know, people in the article writing about it saying there’s just something t the way this thing’s going viral on social media that’s drawing people to this, you know.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

People are looking for something real and they you know, that kind of thing. But Um, I just think, you know, going back to you know, we’ve had an episode about social media and kind of the pros and cons to it, right? And how it can Um people are hungry. That’s why they’re um doom scrolling, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Through Facebook, through they’re just you know, scroll, scroll, scroll, show me something good.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know, and I think this is good, right? No, it’s no doubt ’cause this lands in people’s social media feeds. There’s something about it. And the other thing that stands out about this particular uh opportunity.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

This uh situ you know, this uh move, movement, whatever you call it, revival, um, that I’ve heard over and over is that there’s nothing particularly that stands up out about what they’re doing.

Mark:

No, I hear you.

Justin:

Every article’s like it’s just people singing.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, a cappella. Yeah. Some people, sometimes they’ll a guy’ll bring a guitar and they’ll do it that way. Sometimes, you know, it’s kind of been a little ad hoc, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And Like the first article I read that kind of talked about the beginning of is like it just started as a normal chapel service with a mediocre speaker. I don’t remember it said mediocre, but it kind of gave this con this context of There’s nothing special here, so what’s going on?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know, and like in our clickbait world, uh huh, right? We we want to know, you know Someone handled a snake and didn’t die or you know, I don’t know. Like uh whatever it is, we’re looking for those sensational things and what’s I think so incredible about this is that what’s special is there’s nothing special but the spirit

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? The spirit is clearly present in this atmosphere and it’s drawing like a magnet people to it, you know. And as people see like There this is clearly real

Mark:

sure

Justin:

because there’s no smoke in mirrors.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

There’s none of that, you know, kind of traditional what’s now traditional, right? In church to have all all the all the stuff right to kind of draw you in. Right, right, yeah. Yep. And to be clear, I’m not, you know, decrying that. I’m just saying like There’s none of that in this package and so people go, Well, it must be real.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I think that’s what s has stood out to me the most about the things I’ve been reading. Well those two things that the just wow the power of social media and how God is redeeming social media and you know the you know, thirty years ago at the last one of these it it was in the papers. I’ve seen i in

Mark:

sure

Justin:

those articles, like screenshots of the newspaper articles from the last time this happened.

Mark:

Oh wow.

Justin:

So it was cool to kind of see you know, like it was in some peop some newspapers at that point.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know, and we’re kinda maybe e like you said, it’s not in the traditional media, but it doesn’t matter.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I think that’s what’s pretty cool. And I would even guess that it’s probably hit some social yeah, some nor uh traditional media outlets at this point just to be part of the you know, what’s that word? That uh the the current events.

Mark:

Yeah, the uh the zeitgeist.

Justin:

Yeah, just to be able to say Yeah, w we’re we’re getting you know, we’re hitting you where you’re at kind of thing. I I imagine it landed some some places, but as just probably a little talking point. Um

Mark:

I hear you. But

Justin:

Yeah, I think those two things stand out. Just the social media impact that it’s had in um and then just the un specialness of it.

Mark:

Well and I it’s interesting you say it that that way. I think it I think about it being special.

Justin:

Yeah. Don’t hear me wrong. No, no, no.

Mark:

In the in the sense to the Gen Z generation. Yes. I think cause you know Uh there that has its own polarization, you know, depending on who you talk to. It’s like, you know, if you’re if you’re just kind of talking with someone who’s observing, you know, a young individual, you know, that doom scrolling, you know, on their phone, seeming disconnected. you know, that that seemingly disconnected from a um Uh-huh. Seemingly disconnected from a face-to-face contact, you know, doesn’t mean that they’re not fuller fully connected in a social media world. You follow me?

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

And that can have its own polarizing context. And yet, I think from my perspective, you know uh the hope of the next generation is in this spiritual hunger because I think, you know, I’ll I’ll take responsibility, you know, I’m not sure my generation did a great job of passing down, you know, um, you know, biblical lifestyle, you know, I mean I I’m not just saying, you know, Christian relationship, but you know, that that there is a fullness that can be experienced through, you know, relationship with Christ. And I think, you know, my generation. has basically said well you know this was this was this relate this uh religion stuff was forced down my throat so I’m just gonna give you the opportunity to choose what you want. You follow me? And I think that’s been a disservice in some ways to this generation. And yet God is basically able to say that redeeming like you refer to, it’s like, okay, I get where you’re coming from, maybe, but at the same time, I’m still gonna prove mys I’m gonna show myself to this generation in a way that says if they want to acknowledge me, I’m still right here. I haven’t gone anywhere. And you can say, you know, well You can deny it any way you want to, but if you want to really seek truth, here’s an opportunity. And and now the choice is yours.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

And I and I and I like your connection to social media because I would I would I would have to agree. You know, I found out via text message and I don’t scroll much. So, you know, I haven’t, you know, anything that I’ve heard, well, anything that I’ve heard is basically something, you know, that John was playing or, you know, a podcast that we were listening to, that kind of thing. where, you know, people have been there and, you know, and shared what that was like. So yeah. And it, you know, they were talking about, you know, how the speaker was, you know had just kind of had a long list of things to do and you know just kinda going through the motions but at the same time God chose to show up.

Justin:

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mark:

And that’s that’s that’s neat to me.

Justin:

Yeah, it is.

Mark:

And I think, you know, the reality of it is that just it just kind of speaks to the aspect of Kind of maybe coming to the end of ourselves.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That’s that’s when God is really able to well, he’s able to show up anytime. But I think that’s when he desires. to show up in some ways, especially in our lives, is to the point where we’re willing to say, okay, God, I need you and I recognize I got stuff in my life and I’m willing to talk with you about it. And it’s at that point, you know, God basically shows up. And I think that’s an that’s a neat opportunity. I think it’s, you know, being modeled. in what we’re experiencing at Asbury. So that’s kind of a

Justin:

Yeah. And yeah, e in most of the I would say revival moments in my own life have kind of come at the same kind of thing where um yeah, I was like you said, coming at the end to the end of myself, but also there They weren’t triggered by any any of the things you would think, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know,

Mark:

such as

Justin:

uh environment or whatever. It’s like There’s been moments where he showed up and the what made it so impactful in my life was the fact that there wasn’t a catalyst for it.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? Go back to that word catalyst.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

There wasn’t something that accelerated it in my you know, in my life, except maybe that dependence, I guess, but or like, you know, maybe at at the end of myself.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Like you said. But um I think in a lot of those moments, those sweet moments where it’s like he’s present and I’ve never felt him more present was part of what stood out, what made it so special was the fact that there was no reason for it. There was no like smoke and mirrors to produce this. There was no magical chant to create it. He just showed up

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I think that’s what’s cool about this Asbury thing is you know what? It’s not about it’s not about what we do. It’s not about our our uh you know our special uh potions and

Mark:

yeah it’s not a conjuring.

Justin:

Right. A conjuring, thank you. That’s the word. Yes, it’s not a conjuring. He just sometimes will show up And you want to be there when he does.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And what’s cool about it is people are seeing it through social media, through whatever, and saying he I wanna go see this. You know, if he’s gonna be there, I wanna see, you know. And people are traveling across the world just to see what this looks like.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know.

Mark:

And the thing I like about that too is like is it’s it’s still happening. You know, it’s not like you know, when I think of scripture, I think, you know, the the the the paralytic that Jesus healed you know, because he couldn’t get into the pool in time. You know, there was just this one small segment of time when the water s might have stirred and the first one in got the, you know, experience healing. But you know, I think that’s why that’s part of the reason Jesus is here is that that healing is available all the time in in From a spiritual sense. We don’t always get the physical healing, but the spiritual healing is always available. And I like I like the fact that, you know what we’re exper what they’re experiencing there and what we’re hearing about here is, you know, has been going on for days.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

You know, and if you, you know, desire to be a part of that, and I think I correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the you know, in the seventies it went on, they closed classes down for I wanna say at least a week.

Justin:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, so yeah.

Mark:

You know.

Justin:

That sounds very familiar.

Mark:

And so yeah, that’s just you know, it’s it’s not like it’s just Oh uh a momentary.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. It’s kinda like the the gates open for a little bit and you know, come check it out.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Well the gates are still open.

Mark:

Exactly

Justin:

Yeah. Oh what’s cool that I mean it’s you kind of touched on this earlier. Um he doesn’t he doesn’t need this event. right to reach us.

Mark:

No.

Justin:

But this is a particular kind of grace where he is allowing uh, you know It to be very visible.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But he does the same gate opening for that a period of time where you can see his glory, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Personally, right? And that’s that’s how people come to salvation and that’s happening daily around the planet. And I think it’s that’s important to remember too that um he came to save, to seek and to save, you know.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And uh that also reminds me of um that verse about he’s not slow concerning his promise about coming back, but he wants to give uh this is Justin’s version, maximum opportunity to to come to him, you know, before his return, you know?

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. So I’m thinking about that with you as you were kind of uh, you know, recognizing those moments when, you know, you experienced that fullness of God and the the non-conjuring. What what what do those moments have in you know w what makes those moments for you? In other words, what do those moments have in common as you’ve experienced them? Other than the f the lack of lights and can you share?

Justin:

Well, uh yeah. Yes. What makes them unique is the how present his his spirit is, you know, or he is, you know.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And it’s all consuming to the point where Essentially life resets. And that’s why that’s why I say they’re personal revival moments, right? It’s

Mark:

sure

Justin:

it’s a reminder of like, oh Right. This is what life is.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Not all the other stuff. The all the other stuff is meant to support this and is you know what I mean?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And it’s basically um thinking about a child who is doing his own thing, maybe wandering towards something dangerous in a father you know, coming over to the child, getting down on his level, grabbing his two cheeks, looking at him in the eyes and saying, Listen, son.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know? And it’s kind of that kind of feeling where I have no choice but to look into his eyes.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I don’t know. It’s it’s really hard to explain, but um there are definitely like I said, life resetting moments.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Where those blips are like literally life changing for they um so I’ll have one example

Mark:

yeah

Justin:

that um w had a pretty big impact which So this is probably eight to ten years ago. Um I had a a friend, acquaintance kind of person that I respected in in my uh work community. who basically came out as an atheist. He basically kind of wrote his testimony right on a blog post about how he became an atheist.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

And he described an upbringing of church and different things And that thing shook me in a way, in a in a weird way. Um to where a lot of the questions he asked, I’m like, yeah, yeah, what about that God? Why?

Mark:

You know?

Justin:

And just a lot of those th thing you know, natural doubts that we have. Um and so I kinda had this I was wrestling, struggling with God about why you know, I expect you to do these things, so why don’t you? You should meet some of our expectations. Why not? You know?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And um Yeah, looking back, it reminds me of uh Jesus talking to the the Pharisees, saying, you know, you had Moses in front of you, you had these miracles in front of you, and you still, you know. Now you have the light of the world and you’re blind to it, you know. It reminds me of that. But anyway, back to the story. Um and I was just very just struggling with doubt.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know more than I ever have about salvation, about God, about everything. And yet I still was clinging, you know, it wasn’t like I was giving up. It’s just like I was frustrated. And it was like that for a couple of weeks. And yeah, just wrestling. And then there was a moment of surrender. And um Hmm.

Mark:

Still pretty fresh. Hmm

Justin:

Yeah. Like I said, life changing, right?

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

where I just said, you know, I give up.

Mark:

Hm.

Justin:

Like, I don’t need these answers. I need you.

Mark:

Hmm.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

Um, with or without ’em.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know. And that was not the moment.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Like he let me live in that kind of give up surrender, I would say, for a few days. And so I it was like I was expecting him to show up, prove yourself.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And a couple weeks didn’t happen. I felt drier than ever, you know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And then finally said, you know what? You know, give it up. Like I’m not I’m not about this. I’m not gonna force you to do something. But I need you. And it doesn’t matter if you’re gonna Like show up in front of my face or not, like I need you and I need the hope that comes with you, you know?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And again, it wasn’t right away, whatever, but There was a few days later, I don’t remember how long, where I was just sitting at my uh kitchen table in the morning and Don’t remember what I was doing. I think it I can’t even remember if I was reading my Bible or not. You know, like it was just like a peaceful morning and he just showed up

Mark:

Oh wow.

Justin:

And I just was overwhelmed with his presence.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And oh yeah. And it was a reset, you know.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

It was a good father giving a good gift without Say without my expectation, you know?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Say I I want to give you what you want. But sometimes what you want isn’t what you need.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And what I need

Mark:

is always willing to give you what you need.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

What I needed was to step into that faith one more time. What I needed was to trust blindly. And then he offered the good gift of his presence of like. And I can’t explain it to you other than to say If you experience this, you’d have no doubts.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

It doesn’t matter who you are.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You cannot look away from that. You know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um And that doesn’t mean this this lasts permanently the rest of your life. I’m just saying like in that moment, you don’t leave that moment thinking,

Mark:

you know, yeah, uh

Justin:

it was s supernatural in in my You know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. So that’s that’s an example where I mean that was revival for me. That was you know, and you know, I was on life support, right? And it it was the Yeah. What do you call that? The dz machine.

Mark:

Yeah, the AID?

Justin:

Sure.

Mark:

Uh the fibulator.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Automatic.

Justin:

Clear It was one of those moments where he brought me back to life full, you know, heart pumping again. Back on track and yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So like a personal revival. And again, what’s distinct about that situation is nothing except his presence.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

There wasn’t a catalyst. There wasn’t uh conjuring. There wasn’t uh in fact there was almost the opposite, like I’m gonna conjure and you’re gonna you better show up and he didn’t. And I said, fine, you know, kind of thing I don’t know.

Mark:

No. I don’t even

Justin:

know what to do. Thanks for sharing.

Mark:

No, I just uh uh how what those moments had for you in common. And I appreciate you

Justin:

every one of those moments had in common. that father grabbing my cheek kind of feeling of like you won’t see anything but me right now. And again, that resetting feeling of like, oh right.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

This is this is you. This is all about you. This is you know and the next steps were very clear. You know, just like It’s like how you imagine life should be if you just had full faith. Like just knew without a doubt he he he loved you and he’s gonna take care of your every need the birds of the air, the flowers of the field, that whole it’s like if that world you imagine you want to live in, when you hear those things, like, man, that would be nice.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

When those moments happen, it’s like, oh, I can do that for a little bit. Like it’s It’s that resetting to where it’s just much easier to to deal with everything, you know?

Mark:

Yeah. No doubt. Uh yeah. And I like your analogy of the the father’s hands on my face type thing. Cause I think, you know, in it It’s look at me. And I think, you know, it’s not a forceful thing, but it’s an opportunity to say, okay. Yeah, you’ve looked at a lot of things. You have you we we need to recognize you have some idols. Whether that’s consumerism, whether that’s, you know, individualism, you know, that kind of thing, it’s like I’m here. And you know, all of these other things are gonna disappoint. Mm-hmm. But I won’t. Mm-hmm. And that’s not to say that, you know, people haven’t been disappointed by God. Don’t get me wrong.

Justin:

Well, so I was just gonna comment about that specific thing, which is idols are essentially miniaturized versions that we can understand better of God, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, whether it’s a physical idol sitting on the shelf at home or you build this version of what you think God is and should be and that’s the God you worship. It’s an idol if i if you’re holding to some things that he’s not, you know?

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

And I think that is what that grabbing of the face says like that’s not who I am. And it’s an opportunity to go, oh right, I have to cast away that idol. Because like you said, sometimes it’s all kinds of st it’s easy to sure yeah anything to become an idol. But again, sometimes we build our own idol version of God. that says, you know, he’ll show up when I call and he’ll you know, yeah like a genie in a bottle and any version of him. That’s just not accurate. You know Or uh you know, a common example when people lose faith is when they expect him to show up to meet a certain need and he doesn’t.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

That’s such a common place for faith to go away, you know, and for us to lose sight and and to and and again that’s an idol to for whatever that that expectation we have, if he doesn’t meet it, then we’re misunderstanding who he is.

Mark:

fact

Justin:

because he never changes. He’s always good. And but we don’t, you know, it’s like, no, I believed you were good until now. Now I know you’re not. You know? And again, it’s that idle version of him that we believed he looked like this, he was shaped like that, he fit into that box and you know And he was predictable and I knew how he should work. And it w it all fit into my mind’s construct of what God should be. The problem is if you can fit him in your mind, he’s too small.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

Yeah. No doubt. Yeah, I appreciate you because you were uh reminding me when you were talking about that as far as that that Jonah, you know, when he’s when he’s down, he’s when he talks about being in the belly of the whale. You know, and the seaweed wrapped around him and he basically shares, you know, I have exchanged the blessings of God for worthless idols. You know, in it and you know, I think we can tend to do that because what we want to say, God, is isn’t always who it is, whether it’s prosperity gospel or, you know, all these other things that we kind of hold God to, or whether it’s, you know the healing of a person a physical healing of a person, you know, and it doesn’t happen. I I I agree with you a hundred percent on that from, you know, that’s when the disappointment sets in. And it’s like, okay, God isn’t good anymore. And yet we have those moments when we come to the end of ourselves and we recognize, okay. uh I wasn’t necessarily seeing God accurately and he’s willing to say, okay, now I can show you, you know, a little bit of who I am. I’ll give you a glimpse of who I am.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

To to bring that peace back again.

Justin:

Yeah. And hope and joy.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And purpose.

Mark:

Contentment.

Justin:

Uh essentially, if God gives you a glimpse of Himself, it resets all of those things and all the things you read in the Bible.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know, it’s like they all come into back into view.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, and that’s just how big he is, you know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And uh I and and I just, you know, hope and pray every one of her listeners has or will have an opportunity to experience that because There’s just nothing like it. And so when you read books about faith leaders or, you know, like different things where they just talk about how sweet he is and like um I don’t know, like when you when there’s a faith there that is unshakable, right?

Mark:

Sure. Uh yeah, I know who you’re talking about.

Justin:

Yeah. Uh man. Uh

Mark:

yeah. All I can think of is Harriet Beecher Stowe, but that’s not her.

Justin:

It’s the lady who’s not Harriet Beecher Stowe. She wrote the book A Hiding Place. Uh well it’ll pop in our brain a little bit. Just just you wait. But anyway, she had you know, she was in prison camps during in Nazi Germany and all this c stuff. It’ll come. It’s also not Fanny Crosby, which also came into my mind. Correct.

Mark:

I gotta get ’em out, then that way the right one can come to float to the surface. But yes, go ahead.

Justin:

Yeah. But you know, she Her inner sister who she kind of held up as like the example. It’s just really cool reading that book. You think I thought, you know, just reading hearing about that book all my life is gonna be about just her incredible faith. And really, so much of the book was her talking about I was hanging by a thread in half of that thread was my sister’s faith, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I but they both clearly had experienced this God, you know. that said, you can’t ignore me. You know, you I know you’re in the worst place in in the planet, in the worst situation. And yet you know, y you can’t forsake me, you can’t leave me, you know. And there she even described like anger and different, you know, like why would you let it be this way and all of course, you know And yet the inability to walk away in a in the that sounds bad, but in this like hope way that says I’ve experienced who you are.

Mark:

You know? Sure.

Justin:

Um anyway, so I I was just trying to say, like, these moments are I feel like what turns someone from a casual b believer to someone who I don’t know. It’s transforming.

Mark:

Exactly. Yeah. I think it will as you as you described, you know, when you think about, you know faith leaders like that, I believe, you know, I would say most, if not all, have have come through that storm.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

type dynamic that Jonah, you know, no no one else to depend on.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And okay, to the end of all of my strength and the end of all of my resources and yet God was still faithful. And I think, you know, yeah, that’s a that’s a a huge part of that.

Justin:

And just the Mm um, clarify too. Kinda the other side of that is what I just, you know, called a casual believer or whatever. There’s nothing wrong with faith that isn’t backed up by those moments. That is what Jesus talked about when he said, Blessed are the children, let ’em come to me you know. Faith like a child. It’s this idea that I don’t have that, but I don’t need it ’cause I you know, I yeah I have this childlike faith and uh I in other words I Jesus would not um decry that faith.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

He would hold it up as the example and say you know, this is this is the ideal to believe without sight.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But he’s also a good father to say, sometimes I know you need you need more. Yeah. I’m thankful for that. ‘Cause what he does is he he you know opens the zipper of heaven and kinda lets it shine down in this very n narrow scope to to me or you or whatever. And it’s like, oh yeah, right. That kingdom. You know?

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And uh Yeah. And that’s again, that’s just a good father thing, you know. And again, we expect that like a genie in a bottle, just you know, I need that a shot of that once in a while, you know. And get me back on track and You know, that’s not how he operates. He’s not a genie.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But he’s good. Either way. He’s good. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. And it’s I was uh I was thinking of the that the the movie um Lion Witch the Wardrobe, Aslan, you know, where he talks about, you know, he’s uh at the end he’s uh they were talking about he’s good

Justin:

He’s not safe, but he’s good.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

Something like that, right?

Mark:

Something to that effect. It made me think of it. Yeah. Yeah. But

Justin:

I still can’t think of her name.

Mark:

That’s okay. You can probably uh there you go. I you probably I was surprised you didn’t Google it sooner.

Justin:

I mean I really thought

Mark:

I

Justin:

would just pop it.

Mark:

Yeah, I believe you. And I actually was able to shift away from it long enough to be able to allow it. But

Justin:

hiding place by.

Mark:

Buy. Fill in the blank And and I know this is the this is the reality. I know there is so many in our audience, you know, listen. It’s like you got are you kidding me? You guys couldn’t think of her name? I mean come on, they’re screaming it practically

Justin:

trying to slap us through the speakers.

Mark:

Come on.

Justin:

All right, what’s the number that comes after nine?

Mark:

Uh ten. Corey Tenboo.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

There you go. I like you say. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, because uh I guess Corey, I don’t think of But yeah. And then the other um Ten Boon, like say, it’s not

Justin:

It’s not common, which means we should

Mark:

remember. And that’s where the uh and that ‘s the the connection with Bonhoeffer though. It was like a ten boon, you know it’s

Justin:

good.

Mark:

But So yeah, but thanks for sharing along that line, Justin. Appreciate that uh opportunity to get a get a greater glimpse of uh of Justin in that process of the good father and that visual. Well no, I’m just saying that visual of, you know, the fact that God desires to, you know, kind of hold all of our faces in his hand and say, okay, I realize, you know, you’ve looked to a lot of other things to try and fill, to try and avoid, to try and you know, but hang on, just just just look at me. Despite all of the other things that we can be distracted by, you know. But

Justin:

Yeah. And you started this conversation uh uh y some earlier you mentioned kind of The prerequisite.

Mark:

Mm.

Justin:

Right? Do you remember what you were saying about the position we needed to be in?

Mark:

Sure. Like confession and just kinda that that aspect of recognizing that I am

Justin:

Yeah. I think the word I would use there is surrender.

Mark:

Oh sure.

Justin:

Right. Because confession is A catalyst?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

For surrender.

Mark:

I hear you.

Justin:

I’m gonna use that word right now. It accelerates our surrender, right? So it’s definitely a catalyst.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

For surrender and surrender is I think a key. Oh

Mark:

sure.

Justin:

And so I don’t, you know know who’s listening what situation you’re in, but I definitely think there’s people out there who are saying that sounds amazing. Why doesn’t he do that for me? You know, or whatever. Or Or, you know, I’m in I’m really in need of something like that, shot in the arm kind of thing. And um I mean I I would say Start with confession.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Start with a blaze of surrender.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And um wrestle with them.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Like Jacob, you know.

Mark:

No doubt.

Justin:

All night if you have to, two weeks if you have to.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know, saying I want something from you and I’m gonna wrestle till I get it, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And then Still surrender. Neither of those things kind of go hand in hand and yet they do. Because when you wrestle with God, you will surrender. There’s no winning.

Mark:

There’s no winning until you give up.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. And surrender. Yeah.

Justin:

But there’s something in the contending. As well. You know?

Mark:

Oh no doubt. No doubt. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. So

Justin:

embrace this opportunity for revival because it’s it’s a It’s a real thing.

Mark:

Yes, indeed.

Justin:

We’ve seen it. Um, you know, some people say it’s not, some people whatever. And I would just say Revival is always possible in any moment, you know, and you just want to be there when he shows up.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for sharing, Justin.

Justin:

Yeah, thanks for bringing this up, Mark.

Mark:

Not a problem.

Justin:

Good topic.

Mark:

Yes, indeed. That’s how we see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot click Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.