0:00
[Music] good morning sir good morning yes it is

0:08
how are you Mark I am well yes indeed just enjoying the cool

0:14
damp morning and yeah yeah fallen and yes yeah it is that you you get that

0:22
smell of fall in the air when you get enough leaves on the ground yeah yeah

0:28
did you go trick-or-treating last night I did not I did not I had sessions till

0:34
a little bit later so I had my own form of treating I guess right treatment try

0:42
not to try not to no no no tricks no that's good but yeah yeah we we went did

0:49
a little bit of trick-or-treating good for you did you dress up uh me and my

0:55
wife got out our old letter jackets from high school wow yeah in uh our jerseys

1:01
from high our basketball jerseys we had that I don't know where she pulled that out that's cool we uh went as our high

1:08
school selves nice your hair is a little bit short for

1:14
your high school self isn't it h uh yes probably probably yeah yeah yeah

1:20
understood but that's all right I'm more beardy too yeah and yeah huh but yeah so

1:27
that was that was fun I think I think my my last Letterman's jacket went with the

1:33
last move oh really yeah I don't think I officially have yeah a Letterman's

1:39
jacket anymore that's too bad it probably was a cool one H it was it was uh it wasn't one of the classic ones

1:46
like with the leather sleeves they changed they changed that about two years before our got so it's just kind

1:51
of a yeah yeah it was okay but yeah yeah it wasn't the old old school leather and

1:59
leather with the wool middle yeah yeah ours here I'll show you a

2:05
picture everyone can uh just imagine it you're going to have to link it now you're going to have to link it oh I

2:12
also got a HSE head mask so oh nice yeah so you guys had the classic

2:17
yep Letterman's jacket still the blue wool and the white Le yeah yeah no we

2:23
were uh the Trojans so it was kind of a more of a maroon okay wool yep but yeah

2:28
no we were the Patriots nice yep nice nice you'll have to link that with your

2:33
horse head on there yeah I will that's right it's a good picture so

2:43
[Music] yeah welcome to how I see it with me

2:50
Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a podcast that works to

2:55
countercultural polarization through thoughtful convers [Music]

3:03
ation uh yeah so Halloween um you know you said I am well sometimes I say oh

3:10
that's good and I want to say oh that's well and I'm like no that's not right

3:16
cuz you know you're supposed to say I'm well not I'm good yes and I I think I've

3:22
gotten that habit down pretty good yeah but sometimes I still overthink the

3:27
response that's okay I'm glad you're doing well Mark well thanks and I'm glad you uh I'm glad you

3:33
still fit in your Leatherman's jacket that's cool yeah that's cool it actually is always been a little too big for me

3:39
so oh so now it fits no it's still too big it's still too big yeah wow yeah well that's good too Meg used to wear it

3:47
oh yeah so it was really big on her did you wear hers too did you got like did that dating thing where you exchange

3:52
Rings you just exchange Letterman's jacket we did not I couldn't fit in hers okay yeah I'm sure I put it on as a joke

4:00
once or twice but I hear you yeah yeah that's all right so speaking of high

4:05
school high school yes oh manof oof how was your uh tell me about

4:14
your high school Mark how how was your level of your uh let's say the Continuum

4:19
between humility and pride Andor maybe speak a little bit to how

4:24
you your sense of self-esteem or self-confidence you you know how how

4:30
that how did you feel about yourself in high school wow um thinking about that leather yeah

4:38
thinking about that um hm that's a that's a the the leather the Letterman's

4:44
jacket I I just did track I'll be honest I did track just for the sake of getting a Letterman's jacket oh nice so it

4:51
wasn't like I was a so letterman jackets were pretty legit deal for your yeah I just wanted a letter so I like you say I

4:57
did I did track my like uh junior senior year uh played basketball you know in

5:04
grade school up through till Junior High that kind of thing you know um just just

5:12
didn't really like the pressure that went along with basketball speaking of that you know and I didn't like to

5:18
dribble I wasn't I wasn't a tremendous dribbler I was a great a good shooter because of the like the basketball court

5:25
across from our house I'd just go over there and shoot but I got you yeah I'd pass off the ball as soon as I could so

5:31
that's that's where that that's where that self-confidence piece kind of comes to my mind you know it's like basketball

5:37
wasn't my thing but um and then track I did all

5:43
the field events shot put discus and Javelin I wasn't you know I didn't uh

5:48
yeah uh do the sprinting I sprinted very little like to

5:53
say it's kind of surprising cuz you I definitely think of you as a runner I I hear you yeah yeah maybe you I probably

6:00
could have done okay in distance type things you know distance events but uh I

6:06
definitely wasn't as fast as the sprinters on our team type stuff okay you know I would have had to have done a

6:11
50 yard to do anything yeah yeah but um and then

6:18
I my English teacher kind of comes to mind she uh she would routinely say Mark

6:26
you're either gonna be you know president or you're gonna be a used car salesman you know and I she had that she

6:34
she was wrong because you're neither but show her B based on and I

6:40
think based on what she saw she she saw me as someone who tended to be very

6:48
gregarious you know and I ne definitely never was at a loss for words to be able

6:53
to speak you know in front of people and even persuade people at times so that was it was

7:00
shy right no I would have been anything but shy what grade was she she would

7:07
have been well I probably had her twice you know you know based on you know lit

7:13
or you know like a literature type thing and then you know like another form of

7:19
like uh mythology or something like that you know like but definitely High School

7:25
yeah definitely High School definitely High School yeah to where that um I was

7:32
definitely I wasn't you know the jock I wasn't the geek you know I was just kind

7:38
of there was back then it seemed like there was a middle of the ground type person there was yeah I wasn't a I

7:44
wasn't a you know what what vag you know I wasn't an Aggie you know FFA are you

7:51
familiar oh Future Farmers of America okay you know AG yeah vag you know

7:57
agriculture yeah to where like you say and I wasn't you know I wasn't you weren't with the the farmer nerds right

8:04
exactly and I wasn't with the computer nerds or Geeks you know that kind of thing I wasn't uh you know a a jock by any means

8:14
and I wasn't you know you weren't punk rock I wasn't you know I wasn't goth I wasn't punk punk rock yeah I was really

8:21
kind of middle of the it's it's funny as I think about it it's it's

8:26
really I'm still who I am day in some ways based on that it's like I can just

8:33
kind of flow in between and around it's not like I'm you know on one Continuum

8:39
or the other short of short of hopefully being a Christian that part you know but still even my you know views allow me to

8:48
kind of intermingle yeah as as best I can you know to me that speaks to some

8:55
inner confidence but you know I could be reading wrong so yeah I I think in some

9:00
ways it if anything it it uhuh it speaks to my

9:07
extraversion I like being around people and you know and that was another you

9:12
know I think not that I was a party party person but it was you know more than once there was the uh the the

9:19
conversation it had you know things started when I showed up you know that

9:24
kind of thing and and I'm not saying that in an arrogant manner but I think it was just a way you know that I do

9:30
like people I you know interact with people and you know it just kind of

9:35
changed the atmosphere at points but yeah but I guess that's kind of what I mean too is when you know you have that

9:42
kind of a effect on people yeah I mean I would he that bring some inner sense of

9:50
just in I'm okayness at least coolness yeah there's a I wouldn't

9:57
say that I wouldn't have said that I was thinking I was the life of the party

10:02
gotcha in that mindset it you know it's like eh I'm glad but you know yeah I

10:09
just didn't have that it wasn't an arrogance that I saw and it was it always seemed weird but I'm just

10:15
referring back to what people would say yeah and you know yeah to where and I

10:22
think more so high school was better than you know like middle school or

10:28
Junior High type stuff you know M yeah some of the some of the identity stuff

10:33
was a little more solidified and we that was I I think I mentioned it in um and when we talked

10:41
about um arms what what gun control you know I we did the Sportsman's Club yeah

10:47
you know when we could actually bring guns to school and I did I did lead the Sportsman's Club you know in that kind

10:53
of thing so yeah I mean I had some leadership roles and you know outside of school even 4 and so forth so where yeah

11:00
I think I had a SE a healthy selfesteem self-confidence type thing

11:07
not uh not yeah so there is in that Continuum yeah I was going to say there is a Continuum in your perspective I

11:14
would say I would be middle of the ground I wouldn't necessarily say maybe middle

11:21
to uh towards um I and I'd say middle to

11:27
gregarious you know that kind of thing um and I and

11:33
I think there's a point at the at one end where you can be arrogant it's all about me and we have to do it my way I

11:40
wouldn't see myself as that far you know if that's 100% I'd say I was about 75

11:46
maybe and yet um it I it wasn't something that I was

11:53
definitely on the low end I didn't have a problem you know talking with anybody

12:00
mhm that kind of thing because I never saw you know I guess I never saw that

12:05
kind of difference I think when you're at that 100% you can kind of have a

12:12
maybe a hierarchical yeah look on things I'm not one of them yeah you know what

12:18
I'm saying and I I can't say as if I ever saw them so much it's like oh

12:25
that's Lori that's Joe you know that kind of thing wasn't that I had arrived

12:31
and that other person hadn't arrived yeah so a big thing that can impact our

12:36
level of self-esteem SL self-confidence um is comparison right

12:43
oh sure it sounds like you weren't that wasn't a major thought activity in your brain as far as like comparison or you

12:52
how's Betty compared to me or Bob or yeah Joe I can and it it was it's funny

12:57
cuz you know as for me I can remember you know looking

13:02
back um you know how different people chose different paths yeah you know from

13:10
from the kids that I went to elementary school with you know you

13:15
take what 20 kids yeah you take 20 kids that you start Elementary School with

13:22
and roughly you know 15 of those are still going to be in high school with you and it's funny I looking back I can

13:30
remember you know those that went with the party it's like huh that's a change that's different you know but I remember

13:36
when you know he was you know Billy or she was Lori you know and I it's funny

13:43
just yeah yeah you think about you think about who people are and you see who

13:48
they develop into and maybe it's a part of it for me too I just I was always intrigued by people you know cuz the I

13:56
I'll say that the kid that kind of became the you know the jock person I can still

14:02
remember when you know the girl in in grade in elementary was faster than he

14:08
was yeah you know that early stage when you know girls are you know guys haven't come into their development and girls

14:15
are just as fast that always that was always a funny thing for me looking back it's like yeah you think you're

14:21
something but I can still remember when she was faster than you you know that kind of thing it's just yeah nice yeah

14:28
those are memories yeah for sure so again comparison wasn't a huge issue for you in your life not a

14:36
not a lot yeah yeah right because I think too that's partly what maybe drives people into their categories is

14:42
well well you know well and I think I think categories when we think about

14:48
categories you know regardless I think it's finding

14:53
people that are like me yeah and I'm I'm willing to recogn ize you

15:00
know there W there there probably were a lot of people like me in that middle group but it's like that that was just

15:08
part of my my thing it's like I wasn't that person I wasn't that person so I

15:14
was okay where I was and you felt that kind of inner sense of identity at that

15:20
point or you look back and reflect on that like when you were in high school did you feel like yeah I'm I'm right

15:26
Square in the middle of all this and I'm happy with that or I don't think I ever looked at the fact that I was right

15:32
Square in the middle I definitely remember reflecting on the fact that I

15:38
wasn't part of a group yeah you know was that a sad

15:44
thing not so much okay you know I I you know it

15:49
just and and I think because you didn't feel kicked out of the groups no uhuh and like you say I that was my thing or

15:56
part of my thinking you know it's like I re recognized I had friends in those groups yeah you know and so when I was

16:04
in this class I just was with those friends and when I was in this class I was with those friends you know

16:11
and I think I I mean yeah I probably had

16:17
well I Pro might have had like five core guy friends you know and one for every group

16:24
well not quite and I would say in some ways they were very similar to me H you

16:31
know just yeah looking back you know on those on those

16:37
friends yeah they were they were very similar some you know but you know like

16:42
you're saying maybe a little more each one of them was kind of a little more towards a group but not necessarily

16:51
completely immersed MH to where they were kind of a fringer person in that group you know

16:59
and that's what kind of we kind of gravitated towards I mean yeah cuz out

17:04
of those five guys you know two only two

17:10
did I go to grade school with h yeah yep

17:16
just just looking back yeah yeah it's it it's very interesting it kind of

17:21
solidifies what I what we all already knew is that you're sort of an enigma mark

17:29
that's fair that's fair um yeah I feel like man it's hard to fight the tide of

17:35
uh identity when you're in that age sure because of the lack of self-confidence

17:41
self-esteem which we should Define the two of those things but um yeah go ahead

17:46
I'm curious to see how you define those two sure I will in just SEC or I'll try Okay U but you know like and so you I

17:52
feel like you the tide right that gravity that that pull of like I need to identify somewhere

17:59
therefore you float you know you you gravitate towards the thing that maybe you feel like you are the best most

18:05
likely to fit and and yeah the closest to me type stuff yeah and again you do

18:11
that through comparison well that person's better at Art than than I am even though I like art but I I can't

18:17
compete with them so maybe um but I can run faster than this person so maybe track or whatever you or you know I

18:25
really like basketball or whatever it is you know yeah and yeah again I think the The Tide Is

18:32
that comparison of like you're always kind of doing the math you know the the

18:37
the calculations of where am I fitting and how where do I fit best and how do I find a place here yep and I just I mean

18:45
your story feels like it's lacking in all those juicy details but I feel like that's kind of a pretty

18:52
standard uh struggle for identity in in high school what do you think yeah no

18:57
and I I I was thinking about it as far as uh I think there was a part of me and

19:03
I can recall just growing up I was always more comfortable with older people yeah you know and I I'm thinking

19:09
about it from an identity standpoint you know by God's grace I had a lot of great mentors M you know that were basically

19:17
you know building into me you know that I was comfortable interacting with on a you know daily if not weekly basis you

19:24
know through you through activities and stuff like that just some really great Role Models you know especially

19:31
especially in the in a male Dynamic you know um some of those some of them has

19:37
you know have even passed away you know in the meantime but I still some of them are still alive that kind of thing but

19:43
yeah I I think that was that was influential for me and yeah there's yeah go ahead uh no

19:54
that I mean that sounds amazing to have you know multiple mentoring male relationships or if

20:02
you're a woman and female but like kind of that um it doesn't seem like that's

20:07
super common no I hear you anymore and I think about even like well even like

20:14
John your son he's a youth leader you know he's one of the leaders at Youth and he influences he's able to have some

20:20
influence with young boys and stuff and you know I've heard him talk about that and that's that's amazing and I think we

20:26
that's definitely a thing but but it's like it seems like there's still a separation culturally now that doesn't

20:35
quite allow the same level of intimacy in terms of mentorship and all right

20:40
Johnny that's not like you you shouldn't be doing that you know you never to speak to someone in a way that's like

20:46
you're going to I know you'll listen to me cuz we have this sure you know this type of relationship it's it feels like

20:53
um like that's not really a welcome type of it like it's not conducive to that

20:59
kind of relationship the way culturally yeah it's more um and maybe part of that

21:05
you know sadly is tied to um you know pedophilia yep like the the just the the

21:13
struggles of previous generations and we've put up boundaries and blocks and stuff to try and help with that and I

21:21
think maybe that's one of the side effects is that it's cut off some potential opportunities for intimacy

21:26
with Mentor relationships that you know is quote unquote inappropriate now if we

21:31
have an older guy hanging out with a younger guy there might there's probably an a concern yeah there's like what's

21:37
going on yeah yeah yeah we're so I don't know it's uh I don't know it definitely gives me a

21:43
sense of like man what a loss yeah you know I agree I agree and I think and I

21:49
and I will say too I think you know um when we look when I look around now you

21:56
know to the certain degree of uh male involvement even in leadership

22:02
roles in in our church even you know to a degree I think a lot of that has been adopted by you know women by God's grace

22:10
who have stepped up into leadership roles because of the male vacuum yeah to a certain degree you know I don't um I

22:18
just when I look back I I think about how you know men tended to be more

22:24
involved in church you know um

22:29
um off offices you know like like Sunday school leaders you know Sunday school

22:34
teachers it wasn't just you know ladies you know teaching Sunday school or taking care of the babies you know there

22:40
was guys in that role too you know that kind of thing and I think that was that was beneficial especially when I think

22:47
about you know who it was the the people that were influencing me at that point

22:52
it was you know my second grade Sunday school teacher my Junior High Senior High Sunday school teacher that kind of

22:59
thing you know for me and then just other people you know definitely my own

23:04
father had an influence in that too but yeah it was just yeah what about for you

23:10
I'm uh where where would you have found yourself on that Continuum um yeah my my I feel like I

23:19
probably talked about my stuff a lot in previous episodes but generally i' would say lacking in self-confidence but

23:26
projecting self-confidence so okay um in middle school elementary school I was

23:32
just a kid I didn't think about really um comparison and then about Middle

23:38
School I started really thinking about comparison and like oh that person's better than me and everything right like

23:43
I and that's that's the problem with comparison you can always find someone better in any given moment and you're

23:49
comparing someone's highlight rails to your worst moments and that's just you know whatever so I started doing that

23:55
and that became I mean I call I I would even say like an obsession maybe just the way I think about it

24:02
where I was always just sizing myself up compared to others I didn't have a gauge

24:08
based on some sort of like you were saying a mental relationship to say to speak truth into that so it's just I was

24:15
left to my own figuring it out like where do I land in in this world you

24:20
know and the only way you figure that is well well look at this person am I do I measure up to that person no cuz they do

24:26
this do I measure up nope cuz they do that right and you know being Middle School to

24:31
early High School you don't have the proper brains to say yeah but they also do that bad thing which you don't do

24:38
right like you you don't have see you just unable to create balance yes exactly so that created a vacuum of you

24:45
know I should say a deficit of okay confidence to just like yeah just don't measure up you know so anytime I would

24:53
find a vein where I felt like I uh was you know better than those in the room

25:00
whatever environment I was in you know I think I would really try and latch on to

25:05
that or whatever and and so that that led me to different sports and but even

25:10
those you know I was never that great I was just good and I tried really hard to

25:16
be great but were you a jock um here's the thing I went to a very small

25:21
Christian School so were you djck yeah I mean that's the joke but pretty much

25:28
everyone contributed in every you know activity I shouldn't say everyone but a lot a lot of us just kind of did all the

25:35
things so I was in the plays yeah and I was in the sports I played soccer I played basketball I did yep theater I

25:42
did um the singing groups wow and Megan was in all Megan did volleyball she did

25:48
basketball she did play she did singing groups um so like your group depended on

25:55
the day or the season yeah exactly you were a goth during the theater

26:00
season that's right yeah something like that there were certainly some small pockets of people that didn't

26:08
go to this thing or didn't do that thing but for the most part a large majority

26:13
of us did a lot of the things or all of the things yeah it is neat absolutely is neat um which I think helped I think if

26:23
I would have been in a traditional High School environment just based on who I was and looking back mhm I think I

26:28
probably would have flailed I think I would have either found the wrong crowd whether it was The

26:35
Jock or whatever and really identified and tried to like climb the top of that I got you but I honestly don't think I

26:41
had enough confidence to do that so I think I would have just become depressed and been one of the oh wow I don't know

26:47
the outlier groups or you know alone or I I honestly don't know I just don't think I I really don't feel like I would

26:53
have done that well but I I can't I can't say that I can't speak to that cuz I wasn't in that environment to to put

26:59
that to scale what was your graduating class I mean how many people did you graduate with I want to say five oh wow

27:06
one two three four five yes you graduated with the same number of cor

27:12
friends that I had in high school that's right wow that's cool yeah yeah that's

27:18
neat yeah yep so you know that's puts it in perspective yes exactly very you guys

27:24
you guys had to all work together that's right to get a team yeah on soccer field

27:30
or yeah soccer we actually joined with another Christian School oh I was say

27:35
was a combined effort to produce the size of a regular because it's like with

27:40
Five Guys you you your senior class would graduate and it's like oh another

27:45
build rebuilding year you know it's like oh we just lost our whole Senior Crew and half the team you know yeah okay and

27:53
uh I started playing on the high school team in sixth grade so that gives you an idea of like the pool yeah yeah you know

28:00
you had to start pulling in from sixth grade and I actually played in a couple games in sixth grade like you know for a minute or whatever but the point is like

28:07
you know they needed to sub and all right get in there Justin you had a heartbeat don't get

28:13
hurt I remember I did something I can't remember the story exactly or exactly

28:19
what happened but uh in practice Yeah I ended up I think giving a BL bloody nose

28:25
to the senior oh wow wow and I never lived it down I mean it was kind of a

28:31
funny thing but you know cuz cuz you were out there as a sixth grader just kind of flailing and moving your arms

28:36
and it's like yeah yeah he went Blowing by about the time you picked up your hand yeah something like that I can see

28:43
it I can see it funny yeah yeah wow but uh put him in his place right that's

28:50
right U I feel like that put me on the radar with him though cuz uh you know he

28:55
he would joke with me after that and oh sure yeah yeah yeah that that kind of infused just a little bit that was part

29:01
of it too is like you talked about older having a relationship with older I mean you were referring to adults or but like

29:07
yeah I would try and jockey for U attention from older classmen sure just

29:14
to kind of that helped me have some confidence and typically I had some friends that were a little bit older

29:19
some often too as girls girls a few grades higher than me and just really

29:25
you know enjoyed that and that gave a sense of self-confidence as well but no

29:30
there's something to be said I mean John is probably more like you in that cuz he was you know playing soccer

29:37
at 4 yeah you know to where when he came on the high school team you know he was

29:42
playing up you know he started you know and I and I remember you know similar

29:48
conversations how you know be it good and be it bad in some ways you know those older kids it gave him a little

29:56
his friendship with those older soccer players gave him a little more right of passage little more cred yeah yeah

30:02
exactly streeted you know to the point of you know you're not just you're not just a freshman yeah at that point so

30:09
yeah I can yeah yeah and you know again our school was so small that sixth

30:16
graders it wasn't that rare to have you know the older students kind of speaking

30:21
to the younger ones just cuz there was that few people in the school and also it was a Christian School a little bit

30:27
of you should be kind to your younger classman kind of thing there's more ability to observe that interaction it's

30:34
not 200 people you're watching over yes yeah yeah yeah yeah no that's that's

30:41
that's neat it was neat and we because it was so small and we were involved in so many things like I have so many good

30:46
memories and a lot of you know a lot of good self-esteem boosters just by um so

30:52
one of the things I really en going back to the teasing apart self-esteem and self-confidence I guess

30:59
I heard this good thing in another podcast um from a guy who is in AA and

31:04
he basically was saying what um the things that bring you self-esteem are

31:11
esteemable acts right it's this idea of doing something that's esteemable okay

31:16
and um basically this idea of things that bring value right like to to others

31:22
and to yourself and and versus um you know like a sports accomplishment M

31:28
maybe isn't necessary like uh getting MVP trophy or something that's very

31:35
individual that's still esteemable though wouldn't it be from an affirmation or are you talking more

31:40
about character more yes more of a character more of like a service oriented type of esteem was kind of what

31:46
he was saying esteemable acts and so his whole point was uh you know he was talking about AA and Recovery this idea

31:53
of giving back and the is you regain a sense of who you are through these esteemable acts and you regain that

32:00
sense of um moral fiber you know okay right and you regain some Integrity

32:08
right some Integrity through through those things um all that to say I was going to say in high school we did a a

32:14
lot of things that were very team oriented like you said everyone had to contribute and you all kind of work towards a goal putting out that play or

32:22
you know playing in a championship or or um you know Musical competitions it was

32:29
very often team oriented and which felt very esteemable in a sense of like we

32:34
did this together and when you would accomplish something it felt really good together um however if you did you know

32:42
the other was true too uh which was our basketball team was kind of

32:48
mediocre and did you have to share with the other school to get a basketball team together we didn't we had enough to

32:53
do basketball yeah Co there was more interest in basketball so I think that helped but um yeah I mean we were pretty

33:02
on paper decent in our league right cuz we played in a league of other small Christian Schools we were decent on

33:09
paper but like in actual output I felt like we were underwhelming and again this is my

33:16
memory it could be it might have been better than that I tend to have a very jaded memory of it but I always felt

33:23
like underwhelmed or like I was underwhelming I guess in my own performance and and

33:29
kind of all of us it just felt like we were always and I don't know I think that might have something to do with the coach right and the coach basically

33:37
indicating that like there wasn't a lot of Praise there a lot of good good jobs there was a lot of you didn't do the

33:44
thing right you know so you would you if if you would have had a more encouraging

33:51

coach do you think that would have changed the way you're that would have coach do you think that would have changed the way you're that would have

33:57

changed your self-esteem to that I have no idea I honestly don't I'm I don't changed your self-esteem to that I have no idea I honestly don't I'm I don't

34:02

know how to peel that apart if that makes sense I I hear but it from your perspective it would have been possible know how to peel that apart if that makes sense I I hear but it from your perspective it would have been possible

34:09

or plausible that you could have been you or plausible that you could have been you

34:15

could have Vie yourself as more influential had could have Vie yourself as more influential had

34:23

that encouragement been there that affirmation a positive that encouragement been there that affirmation a positive

34:29

affirmation way to run way to get up the court Justin way to hustle Nice Shot I affirmation way to run way to get up the court Justin way to hustle Nice Shot I

34:35

feel like that's kind of a no-brainer in the sense that we all know and agree that encouragement can help push someone feel like that's kind of a no-brainer in the sense that we all know and agree that encouragement can help push someone

34:43

forward and discouragement can do the opposite so for me yeah absolutely if if forward and discouragement can do the opposite so for me yeah absolutely if if

34:49

I I feel like if if I had a coach that was looking for the positives and trying to speak to that that would have made a I I feel like if if I had a coach that was looking for the positives and trying to speak to that that would have made a

34:54

Major Impact in my life um the big thing though like again I wasn't getting a lot Major Impact in my life um the big thing though like again I wasn't getting a lot

35:01

of in you know like uh people speaking into my life to say to give me any kind of in you know like uh people speaking into my life to say to give me any kind

35:07

of status indication so I had to gather for myself right and so like one of the of status indication so I had to gather for myself right and so like one of the

35:14

major places where I would hear very regularly how I was doing very verbally major places where I would hear very regularly how I was doing very verbally

35:20

was basketball sure and it was kind of a negative you know thing there was some was basketball sure and it was kind of a negative you know thing there was some

35:26

positives in there I'm not going to say it was all negative but it just my especially my uh translation of the positives in there I'm not going to say it was all negative but it just my especially my uh translation of the

35:32

feedback I was getting was negative if that makes sense and that could have been um a misread as well based on my feedback I was getting was negative if that makes sense and that could have been um a misread as well based on my

35:40

own thing so but you know other things like um grades I did really well you own thing so but you know other things like um grades I did really well you

35:47

know I was a good student you know mostly straight AIDS kind of thing and like that was empirical so I was like know I was a good student you know mostly straight AIDS kind of thing and like that was empirical so I was like

35:52

well at least I'm good at that by all measurements on paper like I'm of the am well at least I'm good at that by all measurements on paper like I'm of the am

35:58

the best one in class you know what I mean so like at least I have that yeah you were best of the five yeah exactly the best one in class you know what I mean so like at least I have that yeah you were best of the five yeah exactly

36:04

that's cool yeah and typically it's that's another thing we would do um two grades that's cool yeah and typically it's that's another thing we would do um two grades

36:10

together okay so like 11th and 12th grade for instance we were done together so it was more like 10 together okay so like 11th and 12th grade for instance we were done together so it was more like 10

36:16

but I need a little more credit Mark no no it's good uh but no yeah I mean but but I need a little more credit Mark no no it's good uh but no yeah I mean but

36:22

even yeah yeah so grade wise and then I would get those you know whatever it doesn't even yeah yeah so grade wise and then I would get those you know whatever it doesn't

36:29

matter yeah um so that that that thing was empirical and I could look at that and go well at least I'm good at that matter yeah um so that that that thing was empirical and I could look at that and go well at least I'm good at that

36:34

and no no one can argue with that cuz it's right here on paper and you know it's okay you know so that was one area and no no one can argue with that cuz it's right here on paper and you know it's okay you know so that was one area

36:40

that wasn't subjective but um yeah so if you had to boil a definition of that wasn't subjective but um yeah so if you had to boil a definition of

36:47

self-esteem down to less than 10 words what what would it be uh is that self-esteem down to less than 10 words what what would it be uh is that

36:55

one no doesn't count you better start counting you tell me one no doesn't count you better start counting you tell me

37:01

when a does that count yeah when a does that count yeah

37:08

uh acceptance and respect for self ah uh acceptance and respect for self ah

37:16

now I'm that was that was good good off yeah yeah yeah I think I was at five now I'm that was that was good good off yeah yeah yeah I think I was at five

37:23

or six yeah I got a few more should I add some more well you you had 10 but I'm curious um how you would or six yeah I got a few more should I add some more well you you had 10 but I'm curious um how you would

37:31

describe that differently from self-confidence self-esteem 10 words I'm describe that differently from self-confidence self-esteem 10 words I'm

37:37

not going to put you on yeah if you want it I mean if you see it as a personal challenge I'm good with that it's not as not going to put you on yeah if you want it I mean if you see it as a personal challenge I'm good with that it's not as

37:43

fun as unless it's a challenge from Mark okay yeah that's right gotta make a game of things you fun as unless it's a challenge from Mark okay yeah that's right gotta make a game of things you

37:48

know so let's do 10 words for confidence uh an inner know so let's do 10 words for confidence uh an inner

37:55

sense of ability and Trust in sense of ability and Trust in

38:02

s o I think you did it right at 10 you didn't see him he was pulling on s o I think you did it right at 10 you didn't see him he was pulling on

38:08

his fingers I did I I I didn't start at the very beginning so I had to catch up um an inert his fingers I did I I I didn't start at the very beginning so I had to catch up um an inert

38:16

yeah so intrinsic yeah sense yeah yeah so intrinsic yeah sense yeah

38:23

of value it my perception of self confidence is almost like this of value it my perception of self confidence is almost like this

38:30

thing that exists without reason but but I don't think that's true but I it comes thing that exists without reason but but I don't think that's true but I it comes

38:36

it doesn't feel like it's an earned thing necessarily so to me that's arog it doesn't feel like it's an earned thing necessarily so to me that's arog

38:43

and that tips over to pride and arrogance when when it's like well I earn this and I'm I'm good you know versus like I got this so how are they and that tips over to pride and arrogance when when it's like well I earn this and I'm I'm good you know versus like I got this so how are they

38:52

the same and how are they different well I think we've been using them interchangeably all morning so the same and how are they different well I think we've been using them interchangeably all morning so

38:58

they're definitely very much tied together and I just you think so well to me to me yeah they're definitely very much tied together and I just you think so well to me to me yeah

39:06

basically because they both seemed gone you know okay like I remember so basically because they both seemed gone you know okay like I remember so

39:13

self-confidence uh for me when you say gone looking back not there how's that self-confidence uh for me when you say gone looking back not there how's that

39:19

okay yeah um then then yeah okay yeah compared to now self-confidence I think okay yeah um then then yeah okay yeah compared to now self-confidence I think

39:24

about the free throw line in basketball okay there was guys who said I want to get about the free throw line in basketball okay there was guys who said I want to get

39:30

fouled because I want to go to the free throw line because I want to do my part for the team I'm going to sink those shots okay I was the opposite don't fouled because I want to go to the free throw line because I want to do my part for the team I'm going to sink those shots okay I was the opposite don't

39:38

follow me you just sink the shot that's right no I just had no follow me you just sink the shot that's right no I just had no

39:44

confidence that I was going to make the shot even though we would do hundreds and hundreds of free throws and just confidence that I was going to make the shot even though we would do hundreds and hundreds of free throws and just

39:50

really get formed down and I really practiced it and and I was in practice decent you know I would H you know my really get formed down and I really practiced it and and I was in practice decent you know I would H you know my

39:57

percentages were good but in a game and I don't even know what my stats were I maybe I was fine stats wise I felt like percentages were good but in a game and I don't even know what my stats were I maybe I was fine stats wise I felt like

40:05

uh I was always going to let the team down and I don't even remember if I did I know that so you were thinking I know uh I was always going to let the team down and I don't even remember if I did I know that so you were thinking I know

40:11

I didn't make some I needed to make but that's true of every player everywhere right but I honestly I don't know where I didn't make some I needed to make but that's true of every player everywhere right but I honestly I don't know where

40:19

my how my perception compares to reality I I couldn't tell you but I can tell you my how my perception compares to reality I I couldn't tell you but I can tell you

40:25

my perception was that I let us down more than I should have or like you know my perception was that I let us down more than I should have or like you know

40:30

that so so that's where when I think of self-confidence I think of the free throw line I think of that yes I'm we're that so so that's where when I think of self-confidence I think of the free throw line I think of that yes I'm we're

40:36

going to do this and if I don't make it it's not like well of course you didn't you wouldn't it's more like oh man going to do this and if I don't make it it's not like well of course you didn't you wouldn't it's more like oh man

40:42

that's so unlike me let me let me do the second one I'm going to sink the second one to me that self-confidence does that that's so unlike me let me let me do the second one I'm going to sink the second one to me that self-confidence does that

40:48

make sense yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah where self-esteem I think more like more about walking through the make sense yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah where self-esteem I think more like more about walking through the

40:56

halls and just not comparing and just thinking [Music] halls and just not comparing and just thinking [Music]

41:01

about you know more of like um I don't know just appreciation for about you know more of like um I don't know just appreciation for

41:07

self like feeling confident feeling good what funny I use the word confident right yeah it was I was that's it's kind self like feeling confident feeling good what funny I use the word confident right yeah it was I was that's it's kind

41:14

of interchangeable for me but like this I like just a like for self okay just like I I like myself I'm okay with of interchangeable for me but like this I like just a like for self okay just like I I like myself I'm okay with

41:20

myself and yeah I'm not perfect and yeah got flaws but feeling pretty okay yeah myself and yeah I'm not perfect and yeah got flaws but feeling pretty okay yeah

41:27

um um does that make sense yeah I like I liked what you shared initially about um um does that make sense yeah I like I liked what you shared initially about

41:33

esteem being more of a character and confidence kind of building out of that esteem being more of a character and confidence kind of building out of that

41:40

because I therefore can yeah you know that kind of thing my self-confidence I because I therefore can yeah you know that kind of thing my self-confidence I

41:46

think self-confidence puts a person out there based on a level of esteem yeah think self-confidence puts a person out there based on a level of esteem yeah

41:55

the all I got two words for you okay for each self-esteem is I am okay and self-confidence is I the all I got two words for you okay for each self-esteem is I am okay and self-confidence is I

42:03

can okay man yeah so I am well I'm going with I am can okay man yeah so I am well I'm going with I am

42:12

because of course that's that's that don't tie it to I'm am going to tie it I'm going to tie it I I am X like you because of course that's that's that don't tie it to I'm am going to tie it I'm going to tie it I I am X like you

42:20

know I got you but I I I because I think of God confidence right with some with know I got you but I I I because I think of God confidence right with some with

42:26

with these as ects as well you know where does that confidence come from is with these as ects as well you know where does that confidence come from is

42:31

it just alone in my ability therefore I am and I think you know that can be one it just alone in my ability therefore I am and I think you know that can be one

42:38

end of the Continuum that I am God and I don't need anybody else and I don't want end of the Continuum that I am God and I don't need anybody else and I don't want

42:44

anybody else you know yep or that other person or the other end can be you know anybody else you know yep or that other person or the other end can be you know

42:50

I'm nothing mhm you know and I need I'm nothing mhm you know and I need

42:55

tremendous you know that kind of thing I just yeah to tremendous you know that kind of thing I just yeah to

43:01

where but I'm hearing where you're coming from in this sense of I am here where but I'm hearing where you're coming from in this sense of I am here

43:07

yeah I am present yeah when I think of a healthy individual I mean I I definitely yeah I am present yeah when I think of a healthy individual I mean I I definitely

43:12

think of like your story and just kind of how you describe like just a very it think of like your story and just kind of how you describe like just a very it

43:18

sounds very healthy and I don't is that your perspective of your you know High School environment it's always hard for sounds very healthy and I don't is that your perspective of your you know High School environment it's always hard for

43:24

me to hear myself as a healthy person but like is it uh but just like a a a me to hear myself as a healthy person but like is it uh but just like a a a

43:32

good level of self-confidence and self-esteem like just enough you know I'm not saying uh there's no limit or good level of self-confidence and self-esteem like just enough you know I'm not saying uh there's no limit or

43:40

it's it's it like there's uh there's no cap just the more the better that's not it's it's it like there's uh there's no cap just the more the better that's not

43:45

what I'm saying I'm saying like there's a there's a excuse me that's okay bump the mic uh there's a medium level where what I'm saying I'm saying like there's a there's a excuse me that's okay bump the mic uh there's a medium level where

43:52

I think it is healthy it's just it's a good good healthy place to be where you're not ing everything you're doing I think it is healthy it's just it's a good good healthy place to be where you're not ing everything you're doing

43:58

or comparing yourself and feeling bad about yourself you're I feel like I can or comparing yourself and feeling bad about yourself you're I feel like I can

44:04

do that and I feel pretty good about where I'm at today and it's interesting too I I I was thinking about it in your do that and I feel pretty good about where I'm at today and it's interesting too I I I was thinking about it in your

44:11

context as you were sharing were you a uh were you a class official what does that even mean like a context as you were sharing were you a uh were you a class official what does that even mean like a

44:18

class president yeah we didn't do that oh okay cuz I was thinking about oh yes I definitely would have been yeah I had class president yeah we didn't do that oh okay cuz I was thinking about oh yes I definitely would have been yeah I had

44:24

no doubt I mean with five people why wouldn't you be at least an off officer you know if you no doubt I mean with five people why wouldn't you be at least an off officer you know if you

44:29

think there's four positions and five come on now and somebody doesn't want to think there's four positions and five come on now and somebody doesn't want to

44:35

be one so you know yeah that's right we didn't do I can remember it was funny cuz I did uh I did run for class be one so you know yeah that's right we didn't do I can remember it was funny cuz I did uh I did run for class

44:41

president okay yeah yeah and I came in second oh so like you say I can remember president okay yeah yeah and I came in second oh so like you say I can remember

44:46

that disappointment that went along with it but you know at the same time why' you let him be well I was I was okay that disappointment that went along with it but you know at the same time why' you let him be well I was I was okay

44:52

with it cuz I didn't want to have to organize all the class reunions for the rest of my life either you know I I with it cuz I didn't want to have to organize all the class reunions for the rest of my life either you know I I

44:58

remember I can remember thinking about it it's like there is a there is a a you remember I can remember thinking about it it's like there is a there is a a you

45:03

know a pro to this not winning and you know and I I felt I can honestly say I know a pro to this not winning and you know and I I felt I can honestly say I

45:09

felt uh you know because I wasn't I didn't come in last right you know and felt uh you know because I wasn't I didn't come in last right you know and

45:15

the people I I shouldn't say you know I knew the people that counted the votes the people I I shouldn't say you know I knew the people that counted the votes

45:21

so I even knew what that spread was you know as far as it's like yeah I was cool it was four count it was four so I even knew what that spread was you know as far as it's like yeah I was cool it was four count it was four

45:28

I was I oh I graduated with 184 people so like you say I mean I don't know I was I oh I graduated with 184 people so like you say I mean I don't know

45:33

whether everybody voted yeah but yeah and there there was probably four how much campaigning did you do none so with whether everybody voted yeah but yeah and there there was probably four how much campaigning did you do none so with

45:40

no campaigning that's pretty good yeah but not it not you know it's like once the names were out there you know that no campaigning that's pretty good yeah but not it not you know it's like once the names were out there you know that

45:46

was pretty much all you your I would say your lifestyle was more your campaign was pretty much all you your I would say your lifestyle was more your campaign

45:51

yeah you know and I guess that's my point your lifestyle was conducive to getting Within Four Points of class PR yeah you know and I guess that's my point your lifestyle was conducive to getting Within Four Points of class PR

45:58

yeah so and I would say the other four were a little more on the party end of things okay yeah so and I would say the other four were a little more on the party end of things okay

46:04

you people that I wouldn't have necessarily you know that it just was a you people that I wouldn't have necessarily you know that it just was a

46:09

little Edge yeah yeah yeah funny but yeah no that but that I was think I was little Edge yeah yeah yeah funny but yeah no that but that I was think I was

46:15

thinking about it from that context of how you know things that are important thinking about it from that context of how you know things that are important

46:20

and may not be important and how important God is in those things you know as far as seeing them up front from and may not be important and how important God is in those things you know as far as seeing them up front from

46:27

a balanced perspective well so I I feel like a balanced perspective well so I I feel like

46:34

yeah the the one we talked about Pride was a really good one where we talked about you can't separate you know yeah the the one we talked about Pride was a really good one where we talked about you can't separate you know

46:42

self-confidence all those things from from God if you do it's confidence in yourself and what's that work right so self-confidence all those things from from God if you do it's confidence in yourself and what's that work right so

46:49

we talked about God confidence and so I don't want to go this whole conversation without bringing that into it because I we talked about God confidence and so I don't want to go this whole conversation without bringing that into it because I

46:54

definitely feel like if I had the right relationship with God and I actually knew him for who he was versus who I was definitely feel like if I had the right relationship with God and I actually knew him for who he was versus who I was

47:01

taught that he was which was basically someone keeping score ah if I would have known that he loved me taught that he was which was basically someone keeping score ah if I would have known that he loved me

47:08

intrinsically and that he wasn't keeping score and that he was for me not against me and that he wasn't waiting for me to intrinsically and that he wasn't keeping score and that he was for me not against me and that he wasn't waiting for me to

47:14

mess up and therefore punishment you know I think it would have drastically CH I know it would have drastically mess up and therefore punishment you know I think it would have drastically CH I know it would have drastically

47:20

change things and I would have all of this talk about confidence and where it came from if I had the right view of God change things and I would have all of this talk about confidence and where it came from if I had the right view of God

47:27

I feel like it would have aligned properly and I think that's really what we should all be shooting for not like I feel like it would have aligned properly and I think that's really what we should all be shooting for not like

47:33

healthy relationships with mentors or whatever that's not the first thing I feel like if you can get your relationship with God right you can be healthy relationships with mentors or whatever that's not the first thing I feel like if you can get your relationship with God right you can be

47:39

okay in any environment that's what Paul talked about you know what I mean of no matter what you're going through you okay in any environment that's what Paul talked about you know what I mean of no matter what you're going through you

47:46

have this you know relationship with God that um can carry you through have this you know relationship with God that um can carry you through

47:51

it I didn't have that that kind of friendship relationship with him that trust that father loving father it was it I didn't have that that kind of friendship relationship with him that trust that father loving father it was

47:59

more of the strict and father who wants the best for you and therefore will punish you and therefore we you know all more of the strict and father who wants the best for you and therefore will punish you and therefore we you know all

48:06

so it's not like I thought he hated me or anything it just didn't feel like the so it's not like I thought he hated me or anything it just didn't feel like the

48:12

warmth that I feel now it was almost to the point he was noticing all the wrongs warmth that I feel now it was almost to the point he was noticing all the wrongs

48:17

keeping score along with everyone including myself like I just felt like that's how and you know again my parents keeping score along with everyone including myself like I just felt like that's how and you know again my parents

48:24

did a lot of things right but one thing they struggle with was praise and one thing they they struggle with was did a lot of things right but one thing they struggle with was praise and one thing they they struggle with was

48:30

criticism and I've talked about how I've adopted some of those things and I try and work on that with my own kids but so criticism and I've talked about how I've adopted some of those things and I try and work on that with my own kids but so

48:36

you know it's kind of inner critic was adopted from you know the Theology and you know it's kind of inner critic was adopted from you know the Theology and

48:43

from my parents and you know um yeah but but anyway all that to say like thinking from my parents and you know um yeah but but anyway all that to say like thinking

48:50

about you know you get in second place in the class president situation was about you know you get in second place in the class president situation was

48:55

that a disappointment for you did you feel less than because of that I I that a disappointment for you did you feel less than because of that I I

49:01

would less than's a little too strong yeah I was disappointed yeah and yet at the same would less than's a little too strong yeah I was disappointed yeah and yet at the same

49:08

time it was very momentary it was just yeah cuz I mean I time it was very momentary it was just yeah cuz I mean I

49:13

think yeah I I was trying to think I just there was it was funny think yeah I I was trying to think I just there was it was funny

49:19

because there was a number of things I miss I just missed prom court I was an alternate for prom court so like because there was a number of things I miss I just missed prom court I was an alternate for prom court so like

49:27

I say that was a just miss and I was okay but yet I made homecoming you know as far as those different events that I say that was a just miss and I was okay but yet I made homecoming you know as far as those different events that

49:33

you you look at so it's it's funny you know and I don't even I can't even remember who was uh who was voted uh you you look at so it's it's funny you know and I don't even I can't even remember who was uh who was voted uh

49:40

homecoming C I'd have to look at a yearbook but still you know it's just it's funny thinking about that because homecoming C I'd have to look at a yearbook but still you know it's just it's funny thinking about that because

49:46

it did seem like in that process I was typically you know just yeah just off it did seem like in that process I was typically you know just yeah just off

49:54

and and but guess I still I yeah it was disappointing in the moment but it and and but guess I still I yeah it was disappointing in the moment but it

50:00

wasn't like it made or break you know I just see that's where so that what wasn't like it made or break you know I just see that's where so that what

50:07

you're describing right there feels healthy to me like I got an adequate amount of disappointment like of course you're describing right there feels healthy to me like I got an adequate amount of disappointment like of course

50:13

you want the thing it doesn't happen so you're disappointed but then you're able to move on I feel like there's an you want the thing it doesn't happen so you're disappointed but then you're able to move on I feel like there's an

50:18

intrinsic sense of you know liking yourself that says I'm okay with that intrinsic sense of you know liking yourself that says I'm okay with that

50:23

because I'm still me and it intrinsic sense of I thought I would win that's because I'm still me and it intrinsic sense of I thought I would win that's

50:29

self-confidence but I didn't and it's probably cuz I don't party all the time you know it's like that confidence that self-confidence but I didn't and it's probably cuz I don't party all the time you know it's like that confidence that

50:35

says you know I bet I could have won you know but not like tipping over into you says you know I bet I could have won you know but not like tipping over into you

50:41

know yeah I didn't I didn't want to go after anybody when I was second alternate for prom court you know to get know yeah I didn't I didn't want to go after anybody when I was second alternate for prom court you know to get

50:47

that that one spot you know no like you say it was and that's what I mean no campaigning that that one spot you know no like you say it was and that's what I mean no campaigning

50:54

instead but yeah that was that was uh yeah yeah I see where you're coming from instead but yeah that was that was uh yeah yeah I see where you're coming from

50:59

and those things come I feel like both uh I feel like self okay here's another and those things come I feel like both uh I feel like self okay here's another

51:05

difference maybe in my mind okay I feel like self-esteem comes from past um difference maybe in my mind okay I feel like self-esteem comes from past um

51:12

esteemable effort mhm I feel like self-confidence comes from esteemable effort mhm I feel like self-confidence comes from

51:17

past um accomplishment Andor past um accomplishment Andor

51:23

um Andor speaking in someone speaking into you know speaking that into you cuz um Andor speaking in someone speaking into you know speaking that into you cuz

51:30

I think that can happen too where you can gain a sense of self-confidence without having achieved but someone can I think that can happen too where you can gain a sense of self-confidence without having achieved but someone can

51:35

say but you absolutely can achieve that all you have to do is try and use what God gave you which is more than enough say but you absolutely can achieve that all you have to do is try and use what God gave you which is more than enough

51:42

and I feel like you those conversations can give you some self-confidence or the and I feel like you those conversations can give you some self-confidence or the

51:47

accomplishment can like well I I did did in the past I bet I could syn this free throw again you know what I mean kind of accomplishment can like well I I did did in the past I bet I could syn this free throw again you know what I mean kind of

51:53

thing and it's funny as you're as you're as you're explaining or talking about I think about a lot of the the kids that I thing and it's funny as you're as you're as you're explaining or talking about I think about a lot of the the kids that I

52:00

work with because that's what parents sometimes will you know address or you know I'll work with kids that have an work with because that's what parents sometimes will you know address or you know I'll work with kids that have an

52:06

anxiety of sorts you know and it is a matter of um of you know seeking to anxiety of sorts you know and it is a matter of um of you know seeking to

52:12

build yeah or create a level of build yeah or create a level of

52:17

self-esteem you know and creating that yes I can and therefore I'm going to try self-esteem you know and creating that yes I can and therefore I'm going to try

52:23

you know that becomes the self-confidence and you know and I have this ability to interact with people you you know that becomes the self-confidence and you know and I have this ability to interact with people you

52:31

know strange or new people don't have to you know intimidate me because I'm able know strange or new people don't have to you know intimidate me because I'm able

52:36

to realize okay yeah they're good at some things but I'm also good at other to realize okay yeah they're good at some things but I'm also good at other

52:42

things you know like you had shared early on you know that ability to see things you know like you had shared early on you know that ability to see

52:47

the wholeness of people I I think helps that the wholeness of people I I think helps that

52:53

process because I think so often we do tend to to you know see ourselves from process because I think so often we do tend to to you know see ourselves from

52:59

only the position on the basketball court you know only from a from a a only the position on the basketball court you know only from a from a a

53:04

facet kind of like as we talk about how we see it you know it's so often we look facet kind of like as we talk about how we see it you know it's so often we look

53:10

at ourselves from a single facet and say well I'm not yeah you know and that's at ourselves from a single facet and say well I'm not yeah you know and that's

53:17

all that the unhealthy um inclination right is to to limit all of our view of all that the unhealthy um inclination right is to to limit all of our view of

53:23

oursel through this one facet of the lens that was very oursel through this one facet of the lens that was very

53:28

much what I struggled with so in the days you know we would accomplish there much what I struggled with so in the days you know we would accomplish there

53:33

something good would happen and be then I would feel on top of the world sure but you know that's so shortlived something good would happen and be then I would feel on top of the world sure but you know that's so shortlived

53:39

because there's more failures in life than successes as maybe I don't know because there's more failures in life than successes as maybe I don't know

53:45

maybe it depends on how you view it right I would say one remember yeah well one of the things that I've grown and maybe it depends on how you view it right I would say one remember yeah well one of the things that I've grown and

53:51

just leaps and B all right I I would say for the most part I'm healthy at this point I got for the most part I still just leaps and B all right I I would say for the most part I'm healthy at this point I got for the most part I still

53:57

struggle with something but like a lot of things that would be considered a loss I don't consider it that way struggle with something but like a lot of things that would be considered a loss I don't consider it that way

54:04

anymore I look at it through the lens of what did I learn and it's only a failure if you don't learn from it you know anymore I look at it through the lens of what did I learn and it's only a failure if you don't learn from it you know

54:10

that's like something that I've certainly adopted and I still again struggle with some things but it's not that's like something that I've certainly adopted and I still again struggle with some things but it's not

54:16

to that degree so like that perspective turns all you know to that degree so like that perspective turns all you know

54:22

so many losses into wins and so you can say I win more than I lose because even so many losses into wins and so you can say I win more than I lose because even

54:27

in your lose losses you're winning right um that's not the perspective I had in high school every everything that wasn't in your lose losses you're winning right um that's not the perspective I had in high school every everything that wasn't

54:35

a straightup victory was a loss right so if I wasn't at the top I was at the bottom wow and that it was very a straightup victory was a loss right so if I wasn't at the top I was at the bottom wow and that it was very

54:41

polarized in my viewpoint of that so like even when you're were talking about losing getting second place that polarized in my viewpoint of that so like even when you're were talking about losing getting second place that

54:46

disappointment that would have been just a devastating loss to me if I you know disappointment that would have been just a devastating loss to me if I you know

54:51

what I mean like no I hear you I wouldn't have been able to be shake it off it would have what I mean like no I hear you I wouldn't have been able to be shake it off it would have

54:57

you know and and I can say that I know that's true because I'm not laughing at you by the way I just no tell me your you know and and I can say that I know that's true because I'm not laughing at you by the way I just no tell me your

55:03

thoughts but I was going to say we lost a basketball tournament we were supp you know we we got second place okay which thoughts but I was going to say we lost a basketball tournament we were supp you know we we got second place okay which

55:10

you know that's pretty good yeah I hated myself for a week wow for that that was you know that's pretty good yeah I hated myself for a week wow for that that was

55:16

in wives didn't you share that in wives too you had the breakdown in the locker room yeah I can't remember I think it in wives didn't you share that in wives too you had the breakdown in the locker room yeah I can't remember I think it

55:22

was that tournament I think they were all it was all tied yeah it was like our our home hosted tournament and you know was that tournament I think they were all it was all tied yeah it was like our our home hosted tournament and you know

55:31

I just I wanted to win it and we did not and yeah just devastated so like that's I just I wanted to win it and we did not and yeah just devastated so like that's

55:37

what I mean like second place is still you know yeah the there's a one winner what I mean like second place is still you know yeah the there's a one winner

55:43

and then right after that is second place that's pretty good you know yeah the same with like the like you were and then right after that is second place that's pretty good you know yeah the same with like the like you were

55:49

saying about the uh class president it's like you're all the way up here minus saying about the uh class president it's like you're all the way up here minus

55:54

one and that person had maybe some things that yep anyway yeah what were you laughing at I know I it was it was one and that person had maybe some things that yep anyway yeah what were you laughing at I know I it was it was

56:01

funny you were talking about you know winning and you know the the we had a joke you know our kids went to south of funny you were talking about you know winning and you know the the we had a joke you know our kids went to south of

56:07

course you know and so the joke was you know if if losing builds character you course you know and so the joke was you know if if losing builds character you

56:14

know our kids learned a lot of character explains why they have so much character know our kids learned a lot of character explains why they have so much character

56:20

I we just talked about that you know it's like yeah you can you can you can learn a lot from losing it's like I we just talked about that you know it's like yeah you can you can you can learn a lot from losing it's like

56:26

yeah and so that was that's sometimes a little family joke there it's like yeah you sure can but boy you can get tired yeah and so that was that's sometimes a little family joke there it's like yeah you sure can but boy you can get tired

56:33

of it too you can yeah but yeah it was just that was what I was laughing I wasn't laughing at you I didn't want you of it too you can yeah but yeah it was just that was what I was laughing I wasn't laughing at you I didn't want you

56:39

to think I was yeah but yeah uh earlier I was thinking about when uh the to think I was yeah but yeah uh earlier I was thinking about when uh the

56:45

difference between self-confidence and self-esteem again another thing that came to my mind is my two daughters so I difference between self-confidence and self-esteem again another thing that came to my mind is my two daughters so I

56:51

feel like Mia has some self-confidence and she's able to get up on stage and sing and do that without feel like Mia has some self-confidence and she's able to get up on stage and sing and do that without

56:58

any she has no anxiety about it and she'll step on any stage you want her to go and cool do whatever you need her to any she has no anxiety about it and she'll step on any stage you want her to go and cool do whatever you need her to

57:05

do you know and a lot of that is just because she's been doing that she since she was little um and she's been getting do you know and a lot of that is just because she's been doing that she since she was little um and she's been getting

57:12

praised since she was little about it and like it's just like this inner confidence that at this point she hasn't praised since she was little about it and like it's just like this inner confidence that at this point she hasn't

57:19

have to think about that confidence it's just there I'll get up on that stage and I'll do it again you know sure and I have to think about that confidence it's just there I'll get up on that stage and I'll do it again you know sure and I

57:24

think about doesn't matter how many people they there I'm just going up singing my songs and think about doesn't matter how many people they there I'm just going up singing my songs and

57:29

yeah yeah and she you know she started in tree house she be up on that little stage singing or dancing and you know yeah yeah and she you know she started in tree house she be up on that little stage singing or dancing and you know

57:36

like um yeah and it's just it's perfectly comfortable for her she's very like um yeah and it's just it's perfectly comfortable for her she's very

57:41

confident but there's other things she doesn't have that same level of self-confidence um and I think about confident but there's other things she doesn't have that same level of self-confidence um and I think about

57:47

juel who's stage of verse like she doesn't care about attention we try and juel who's stage of verse like she doesn't care about attention we try and

57:53

get her to um do different things like we really wanted her to be part of the family get her to um do different things like we really wanted her to be part of the family

57:59

band and she's just like I I don't she doing drums is she doing no no she band and she's just like I I don't she doing drums is she doing no no she

58:05

doesn't want to do drums um we really want her to do I bet she's good at it but she just doesn't see the need okay doesn't want to do drums um we really want her to do I bet she's good at it but she just doesn't see the need okay

58:13

because she likes who she is just fine without that thing she doesn't have this because she likes who she is just fine without that thing she doesn't have this

58:19

inner sense of I need to do X Y or Z it's just she likes just doing what she inner sense of I need to do X Y or Z it's just she likes just doing what she

58:25

does and being who who she is and she has this inner sense again that's what I would kind of see in the self-esteem does and being who who she is and she has this inner sense again that's what I would kind of see in the self-esteem

58:31

category where I don't need those things to feel okay about myself because I I'm category where I don't need those things to feel okay about myself because I I'm

58:37

just fine and she does a lot of art she's very artsy and we definitely you know praise her a ton about it but like just fine and she does a lot of art she's very artsy and we definitely you know praise her a ton about it but like

58:44

she doesn't need that to be seen by everyone like she just likes to do it she doesn't need that to be seen by everyone like she just likes to do it

58:50

you know yeah she enjoys it yeah so I feel like both my two daughters represent Mia I think reprs in like a you know yeah she enjoys it yeah so I feel like both my two daughters represent Mia I think reprs in like a

58:59

supernatural level of self-confidence in some in some areas and me juel even to supernatural level of self-confidence in some in some areas and me juel even to

59:05

me again based on my upbringing represents a supernatural amount of self-esteem um but the I see them as two me again based on my upbringing represents a supernatural amount of self-esteem um but the I see them as two

59:12

different you know I mean no doubt yeah that's cool yeah appreciate you sharing different you know I mean no doubt yeah that's cool yeah appreciate you sharing

59:18

that yeah it's interesting no doubt and how if I may how does Joseph fall into that yeah it's interesting no doubt and how if I may how does Joseph fall into

59:24

that um he's definitely more self-confident okay that um he's definitely more self-confident okay

59:29

um I'm trying to think about the self-esteem thing I think he's a little bit of both um I'm trying to think about the self-esteem thing I think he's a little bit of both

59:36

honestly I got you I wouldn't be surprised he doesn't seem to have the need to do anything to like impress honestly I got you I wouldn't be surprised he doesn't seem to have the need to do anything to like impress

59:44

anyone or like achieve and yet um he's really good in school he's you anyone or like achieve and yet um he's really good in school he's you

59:50

know um and he yeah he like does art too he does these little comic books and know um and he yeah he like does art too he does these little comic books and

59:56

they're hilarious he's got a funny sense of humor he's kind of like right in the middle of those two I feel like it's they're hilarious he's got a funny sense of humor he's kind of like right in the middle of those two I feel like it's

1:00:02

kind of interesting yeah yeah yeah it's interesting in that birth order Dynamic yeah oldest middle and youngest as we've kind of interesting yeah yeah yeah it's interesting in that birth order Dynamic yeah oldest middle and youngest as we've

1:00:10

you know discussed your kids yeah and he's a boy and they're a girl so that's also interesting to see how things play you know discussed your kids yeah and he's a boy and they're a girl so that's also interesting to see how things play

1:00:17

out in his life versus so his humor is completely different yeah for sure um out in his life versus so his humor is completely different yeah for sure um

1:00:24

yeah yeah good question no what about your kids how do you feel like they fall in that yeah yeah good question no what about your kids how do you feel like they fall in that

1:00:30

Continuum I would dare say um Continuum I would dare say um

1:00:36

probably I would dare say John is probably more of a self-confidence you probably I would dare say John is probably more of a self-confidence you

1:00:41

know MH um although I see I see Lizzie know MH um although I see I see Lizzie

1:00:47

is changing of course you know she's been the college you know that kind of thing and I think she is grown in both is changing of course you know she's been the college you know that kind of thing and I think she is grown in both

1:00:56

aspects you know uh relationship with God as you know definitely esteem aspects you know uh relationship with God as you know definitely esteem

1:01:03

and um she was sharing well I was actually speaking with her yesterday Chris spoke with her last week but it and um she was sharing well I was actually speaking with her yesterday Chris spoke with her last week but it

1:01:09

was funny because she was uh she was a um put on a panel you know how was funny because she was uh she was a um put on a panel you know how

1:01:16

like you know as as as freshmen come in she was on one of those panels that she like you know as as as freshmen come in she was on one of those panels that she

1:01:23

had been to as a freshman nice so it was funny cuz she was um for for Health had been to as a freshman nice so it was funny cuz she was um for for Health

1:01:29

Sciences so you have all these kids that are coming in you know to be doctors and you know all nurses and all that Health Sciences so you have all these kids that are coming in you know to be doctors and you know all nurses and all that Health

1:01:36

Science thing and it's you know and she was telling me because she could from her Science thing and it's you know and she was telling me because she could from her

1:01:42

perspective she was looking back and saying okay what would I have wanted to perspective she was looking back and saying okay what would I have wanted to

1:01:50

know when I was sitting in those seats and she said it was funny cuz know when I was sitting in those seats and she said it was funny cuz

1:01:56

she could hear you know kind of the elitist you know answers that some of she could hear you know kind of the elitist you know answers that some of

1:02:02

her you know upper classmen you know see you know were given it's hard work you got to do this you got to get this done her you know upper classmen you know see you know were given it's hard work you got to do this you got to get this done

1:02:09

you got to get this done and it's like and you know Lizzy was basically not you got to get this done and it's like and you know Lizzy was basically not

1:02:14

that she was being an antagonist you know but it's like well you're going to that she was being an antagonist you know but it's like well you're going to

1:02:19

it's going to work you know you may not be able to do this this and this but it it's going to work you know you may not be able to do this this and this but it

1:02:24

will work out and where you'll do the things you'll get the things done that you need to get done and you may have to will work out and where you'll do the things you'll get the things done that you need to get done and you may have to

1:02:31

you know forsake some other things but it's going to work and if you need to take a gap year to accomplish what you you know forsake some other things but it's going to work and if you need to take a gap year to accomplish what you

1:02:37

need to do that's okay too and it was funny CU she said you know there were so need to do that's okay too and it was funny CU she said you know there were so

1:02:43

many you know young girls that just basically almost came up to her in tears many you know young girls that just basically almost came up to her in tears

1:02:48

saying oh my goodness I appreciate you sharing what you shared because I'm I saying oh my goodness I appreciate you sharing what you shared because I'm I

1:02:56

was feel the fact that you were feeling anxious and you recognized that you know this stuff worked out you know it wasn't was feel the fact that you were feeling anxious and you recognized that you know this stuff worked out you know it wasn't

1:03:03

you controlling it all it was by God's grace it worked out and you know and she you controlling it all it was by God's grace it worked out and you know and she

1:03:10

was able to share that and she you know had all these younger freshmen basically saying can I get your number because you was able to share that and she you know had all these younger freshmen basically saying can I get your number because you

1:03:15

know if I have a question can I she said sure you know it's like so it was just kind of that neat thing you know as far know if I have a question can I she said sure you know it's like so it was just kind of that neat thing you know as far

1:03:22

as I would call that a a combination mhm of esteem and confidence that you know as I would call that a a combination mhm of esteem and confidence that you know

1:03:29

it's going to work out and I and I guess I would just see I think I think the it's going to work out and I and I guess I would just see I think I think the

1:03:35

military was definitely crucial in Jon's development of both but I think it you military was definitely crucial in Jon's development of both but I think it you

1:03:42

know I you know see I I put the military service squarely in that know I you know see I I put the military service squarely in that

1:03:47

esteemable uh kind of side of things to where you would you I would say you esteemable uh kind of side of things to where you would you I would say you

1:03:53

would earn some self-esteem there you did but I would also say the confidence that John had grew it's like I you know would earn some self-esteem there you did but I would also say the confidence that John had grew it's like I you know

1:04:00

we'll routinely say he uh he he grew two inches yeah oh after boot camp just we'll routinely say he uh he he grew two inches yeah oh after boot camp just

1:04:07

because he stood straight he stood straight yeah and I think you know that was a part of it to where and I think it because he stood straight he stood straight yeah and I think you know that was a part of it to where and I think it

1:04:14

is a a a confidence of sorts because it's and I'll hear it every now and then is a a a confidence of sorts because it's and I'll hear it every now and then

1:04:21

I I endured that you know boot camp basically and I I endured that you know boot camp basically and

1:04:26

the humiliation the breaking down I endured that that's that's cake yeah you the humiliation the breaking down I endured that that's that's cake yeah you

1:04:31

know everything kind of that comparison thing you know if I can endure that yeah know everything kind of that comparison thing you know if I can endure that yeah

1:04:38

going to work showing up on time you know that's cake yeah you know get the going to work showing up on time you know that's cake yeah you know get the

1:04:43

hard stuff done his you know he's a good one for that motto you know do the hard stuff first yeah and then the rest of hard stuff done his you know he's a good one for that motto you know do the hard stuff first yeah and then the rest of

1:04:49

the day is easy yeah go downhill yeah you know so like you say it's kind of interesting to think about that in a in the day is easy yeah go downhill yeah you know so like you say it's kind of interesting to think about that in a in

1:04:56

a and I and I see him more of course in that um inogram he's a eight Challenger a and I and I see him more of course in that um inogram he's a eight Challenger

1:05:04

you know to where you know it's like that that takes a level of confidence to be able to say no I don't agree yeah you you know to where you know it's like that that takes a level of confidence to be able to say no I don't agree yeah you

1:05:11

know I you can do what you want to but I'm saying right here you know that kind know I you can do what you want to but I'm saying right here you know that kind

1:05:17

of thing but I and I and I see the esteem in it but yeah it's interesting of thing but I and I and I see the esteem in it but yeah it's interesting

1:05:23

yeah consideration and I think that's what makes two words you know kind of yeah consideration and I think that's what makes two words you know kind of

1:05:28

funny to discuss it is yeah because it is hard to peel him apart because I I funny to discuss it is yeah because it is hard to peel him apart because I I

1:05:33

often feel like or I feel like a good self-esteem will create a good self-confidence I would agree with you often feel like or I feel like a good self-esteem will create a good self-confidence I would agree with you

1:05:39

in that that as I as I yeah I'm sorry I did I cut you off you started to raise your other hand like you'd well I was in that that as I as I yeah I'm sorry I did I cut you off you started to raise your other hand like you'd well I was

1:05:46

going to say I don't know if I feel the others always true like a good self-confidence will create a good going to say I don't know if I feel the others always true like a good self-confidence will create a good

1:05:52

self-esteem cuz yeah selfconfidence might be based on other's words and or your accomplishment if those things go self-esteem cuz yeah selfconfidence might be based on other's words and or your accomplishment if those things go

1:05:59

away yes you know what I mean so if you're I feel like self-confidence can create an an unsteady self-esteem sure away yes you know what I mean so if you're I feel like self-confidence can create an an unsteady self-esteem sure

1:06:07

where a self-esteem can create a more steady self-confidence yeah no I hear where you're coming from if I recognize where a self-esteem can create a more steady self-confidence yeah no I hear where you're coming from if I recognize

1:06:14

that I am valuable intrinsically right you know then that that goes a long way that I am valuable intrinsically right you know then that that goes a long way

1:06:22

when the wheels fall off in one area you know like if I go through a bankruptcy when the wheels fall off in one area you know like if I go through a bankruptcy

1:06:28

or you know or you know my girlfriend breaks up with me or you know those kind of things depending on you know age of or you know or you know my girlfriend breaks up with me or you know those kind of things depending on you know age of

1:06:35

course that's what I was trying to go with I don't have current I I I have a girlfriend but she's also my wife so I course that's what I was trying to go with I don't have current I I I have a girlfriend but she's also my wife so I

1:06:41

wanted to uh kind of walk through that but yeah those different life cycle wanted to uh kind of walk through that but yeah those different life cycle

1:06:47

stages the if uh I'm confident based on that one facet it can definitely you stages the if uh I'm confident based on that one facet it can definitely you

1:06:55

know hit my esteem if that facet goes away or changes or something like that know hit my esteem if that facet goes away or changes or something like that

1:07:01

yeah yeah so if you're if you're trying to build your self-confidence start with self-esteem I agree and by starting with yeah yeah so if you're if you're trying to build your self-confidence start with self-esteem I agree and by starting with

1:07:07

self-esteem start doing esteemable things so you know a good example too is like serving self-esteem start doing esteemable things so you know a good example too is like serving

1:07:15

you know go to a soup kitchen serve there you know go to serve some kids you you know go to a soup kitchen serve there you know go to serve some kids you

1:07:21

know and whether it's at church and youth group or treehouse know and whether it's at church and youth group or treehouse

1:07:26

that's the other thing too like seeing the kids who serve I I feel like there's a often a that's the other thing too like seeing the kids who serve I I feel like there's a often a

1:07:33

clear distinction I don't know if chicken or egg right like if they came in with a self-esteem and therefore serve kids or they serve kids and it has clear distinction I don't know if chicken or egg right like if they came in with a self-esteem and therefore serve kids or they serve kids and it has

1:07:42

created more self-esteem but I definitely feel like I see connection there A lot of times when when I see created more self-esteem but I definitely feel like I see connection there A lot of times when when I see

1:07:47

development of kids um and I see that they are serving and serving I I mean the true development of kids um and I see that they are serving and serving I I mean the true

1:07:54

sense of the word serving cuz I definitely feel like uh there are some roles that are called serving but sense of the word serving cuz I definitely feel like uh there are some roles that are called serving but

1:08:01

maybe are more you know spotligh is I got you you know I again I think of Mia I think Mia maybe are more you know spotligh is I got you you know I again I think of Mia I think Mia

1:08:09

has matured enough to where she sees um being on a stage of serving in a lot of ways because it is work and you know has matured enough to where she sees um being on a stage of serving in a lot of ways because it is work and you know

1:08:15

whatever and there's work to be done even to push yourself down so that you can put God in front of you that kind of whatever and there's work to be done even to push yourself down so that you can put God in front of you that kind of

1:08:21

thing and I think she's learning that and she's maturing and all but I definitely like calling getting on a stage serving for her most of her life thing and I think she's learning that and she's maturing and all but I definitely like calling getting on a stage serving for her most of her life

1:08:29

was kind of a misnomer you know I mean where juel juel um goes into the nest was kind of a misnomer you know I mean where juel juel um goes into the nest

1:08:34

and she serves you know three and four year olds and to me that I feel like that's there's some self-esteem there and she serves you know three and four year olds and to me that I feel like that's there's some self-esteem there

1:08:41

that's built through that but also that she had going into it again chicken or egg I don't know but um again I feel that's built through that but also that she had going into it again chicken or egg I don't know but um again I feel

1:08:48

like that contributes to kind of who they are how they are and it's interesting but anyway back to the whole thing like if you struggle with that like that contributes to kind of who they are how they are and it's interesting but anyway back to the whole thing like if you struggle with that

1:08:55

start start doing some things to build that self-esteem to make you say I feel good about myself cuz today I start start doing some things to build that self-esteem to make you say I feel good about myself cuz today I

1:09:01

serve somebody or you know I think that's a good core well and I think serving other people takes the eyes off serve somebody or you know I think that's a good core well and I think serving other people takes the eyes off

1:09:08

us yeah which helps that self-esteem too CU it's not like yeah it's not like I'm us yeah which helps that self-esteem too CU it's not like yeah it's not like I'm

1:09:15

the center of my focus and I think to be able to see people who maybe you know the center of my focus and I think to be able to see people who maybe you know

1:09:22

down on their luck like you say a soup kitchen or something like that it helps me you know develop a little bit of down on their luck like you say a soup kitchen or something like that it helps me you know develop a little bit of

1:09:29

gratitude some perspective perspective yes on the things that I have the things that I'm able to do the supports that gratitude some perspective perspective yes on the things that I have the things that I'm able to do the supports that

1:09:36

have been in my life you know and I think that helps build in that have been in my life you know and I think that helps build in that

1:09:41

self-esteem type thing to be able to say Yeah by God's grace I'm pretty fortunate and I've you know been fortunate to have self-esteem type thing to be able to say Yeah by God's grace I'm pretty fortunate and I've you know been fortunate to have

1:09:48

people in my life and I'm definitely not all of that but I'm okay with who I am people in my life and I'm definitely not all of that but I'm okay with who I am

1:09:54

well I think part of that is especially soup kitchen type of idea when you do well I think part of that is especially soup kitchen type of idea when you do

1:09:59

that for real and you're able to have real conversations with the people you're serving you very quickly that for real and you're able to have real conversations with the people you're serving you very quickly

1:10:05

recognize the difference between you and them is not some intrinsic goodness very recognize the difference between you and them is not some intrinsic goodness very

1:10:11

like you said the supports you had right so like I grew up in a good home and I if I were to lose my job today I'd be in like you said the supports you had right so like I grew up in a good home and I if I were to lose my job today I'd be in

1:10:17

my parents house you know whatever where they didn't have that and you're able to my parents house you know whatever where they didn't have that and you're able to

1:10:22

start seeing like oh okay yep you know or or just even at times just one start seeing like oh okay yep you know or or just even at times just one

1:10:28

circumstance right yeah you know one thing that was just a little bit different yep and it had the a long-term circumstance right yeah you know one thing that was just a little bit different yep and it had the a long-term

1:10:36

implication yep yeah yep otherwi you know kind of that that verse you know implication yep yeah yep otherwi you know kind of that that verse you know

1:10:41

but by the grace of God you know that one thing MH I was spared mhm and but by the grace of God you know that one thing MH I was spared mhm and

1:10:48

otherwise I'd be just like that person or you know could have been I think that's a George Whitfield quote is it or otherwise I'd be just like that person or you know could have been I think that's a George Whitfield quote is it or

1:10:55

well thank you George yeah but for the grace of God there go I he said when he passed someone yeah yeah on the street well thank you George yeah but for the grace of God there go I he said when he passed someone yeah yeah on the street

1:11:02

yep but yeah so yeah that's what what we name in this one excuse yep but yeah so yeah that's what what we name in this one excuse

1:11:08

me uh I'll let you name this one I don't know but either way that's me uh I'll let you name this one I don't know but either way that's

1:11:14

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1:11:20

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