Justin:

Clapper.

Mark:

Yeah. Remember the clapper? Clap on, clap

Justin:

off. Did they call it a clapper?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. I remember clap on clap off. I don’t remember the

Mark:

clap on the clapper is like a sound switch.

Justin:

That’s right. A light switch that turns out.

Mark:

It was a it was it was Alexa. Yeah the original

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. I think I’d still prefer that sometimes over Alexa, turn off the lights.

Mark:

Exactly. Because the clapper didn’t necessarily listen. It just heard.

Justin:

Right. I hear ya.

Mark:

I hear ya.

Justin:

I hear you.

Mark:

Yes indeed. Justin throwing out the markisms this morning. I like it.

Justin:

Like I say. Alright. How are you this morning?

Mark:

I am well.

Justin:

You are well.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Good.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Me too. It’s it’s a nice cool, quiet fall morning again.

Mark:

Yeah. It’s it’s the it’s dark out

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Of course now, but uh the moon was just bright.

Justin:

It was, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, and the stars it was it’s

Justin:

this morning. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, just to see the stars and yeah. Still a neat time of year.

Justin:

Do you think people get tired of us telling us about the day?

Mark:

When it’s two weeks later.

Justin:

Right. I’m sure it was a great mo moonlit morning. Oh, I remember that morning. That’s right.

Mark:

Yeah, oh well. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Oh well, that’s what I see.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Enjoy it.

Mark:

Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg.

Justin:

This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations.

Mark:

But uh you know what it reminded me of this morning? It reminded me of Saturday. You did a nice job, um leading the discussion, I guess I’ll call it. And uh yeah, it it reminded me of that the of when we talked about the serenity prayer

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Just that uh what what got what comes to mind, I could put it out there for the audience, when you think of the word serenity What comes to mind?

Justin:

As you said, the the birds. Started tripping.

Mark:

What about for you though? What what image, what uh person, place thing

Justin:

Well right now I can’t ’cause you tied it into my head, but I can’t get that picture of the moon kinda going through the trees

Mark:

Oh wow.

Justin:

Kind of lighting up like there’s a little spot over there.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

In between the trees where it was just it’s like where’s the light? Oh it’s the moon.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

‘Cause I could see light kind of casting into the woods from our porch lights

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

This way.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

But then there was like light behind it and for a second there. I was trying to figure that out.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It hadn’t registered yet and I was like, whoa, and I looked up and the moon’s crazy bright.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But yeah, kind of that moonlit forest. floor definitely has a serene feel to me.

Mark:

No doubt.

Justin:

How about you?

Mark:

Yeah, it’s uh it’s funny because I mean I’ll routinely think about it like um When I when I think of Serene, it’s like some mornings when we’re doing F3, you know, you look I

Justin:

never once

Mark:

I knew I didn’t think about it. But it’s like

Justin:

Never once did I think of Serenity while doing F three, but this is why Mark This is our this is why we’re polarized. I’m sorry.

Mark:

No, it’s a great I I appreciate that perspective. But if in all honesty, it’s before F three typically. And we’re right there at the mouth of the Cape Fear River.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And Some mornings you just look out there and that water is flat.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And you know, and that’s what comes to mind. That’s serene. And I and I think about it in that context and as I thought about a little more with people, you know, it’s like if that w if that body of water could talk you know, the t the to tell of the history, you know, there’s a there’s a depth you know, it’s not because and I think serene when it comes to mind, it’s like, you know It’s not that it couldn’t be tumultuous.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

But in this moment, you know, it is serene. And there because there’s a depth, in other words, a a mud puddle, I wouldn’t think of being serene.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, because it just can’t have the ability to be tumultuous. Mm-hmm. But in opposition, polarizing, if you will, you know, in that moment, it’s serene. And I and I think about that in the context of, you know, people that I respect. you know, who have had, you know, their turmoil or their s their strife, you know, their tribulations, if you will. And yet they have a sense of peace about them , you know, that isn’t, you know, flip it or, you know, just kinda so yeah, that’s that’s uh Typically when I see, you know, a a a large body of water or something like that that’s flat, you know, I tend to think of serene in that moment.

Justin:

Yeah, I think prior to the thing about the moon that would have been my uh more like for me the the picture of being out on a dock uh you know yeah by a lake early morning, you know, dusk time and you see you know, a few ducks playing, but for the most part, yeah, there’s no ripples. It’s just kind of

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Maybe a little foggy, you know.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Yeah, that that to me is certainly a picture of

Mark:

Yeah. of

Justin:

serenity.

Mark:

Sure. Yeah. What about in people? What would what would what would in when you think of a person What would make you think of serenity there?

Justin:

Yeah, that’s um maybe some of the same characteristics.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, as a a calmness.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know. Um a slowness.

Mark:

Hmm.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

Yeah. Uh a reflective.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

Not pensive.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Reflective.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

No doubt.

Justin:

Yeah, and I think um Also thinking about context like a person with serenity I can see kind of sitting taking it in as stuff is kind of flying around. You know what I mean?

Mark:

Yeah yeah.

Justin:

Life.

Mark:

Yeah. And

Justin:

kind of processing and

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Taking it slowly. You know what I mean?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Versus

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Freaking out, you know.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

How about you?

Mark:

No, that would uh I yeah, I happen to be reading this morning about uh, you know, Jesus uh you know flipping the the money changers table, you know, that kind of thing. But you know all of what he did, he did with desire, you know, and even in that providing calm, you know, I could I there wa I’m sure there That’s that’s kind of what I see when you, you know, when you mention that. It’s it’s kind of that that ability to walk through the circumstance without having to run. Just because others are running.

Justin:

Yeah, he was a perfect example of that in so many ways, right? Like even the story where he calm the seas, the the storm, uh because You know, like he basically turned a storm into Serenity.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

The story starts with the whole crew freaking out because the storm is that bad. And these are seasoned Sailors, right? Like season fishermen, right? They they’ve seen some seas and this one’s got ’em freaked out, you know. And they go to find Jesus and he’s sleeping.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Like to me that’s serenity. It’s like I know the uh outcome of this storm and I it’s not keeping me up.

Mark:

Exactly. Yeah.

Justin:

That’s that’s incredible.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Or like uh When um Lazarus, you know, was on his deathbed to the degree where it was eminent, like he was gonna die and Of course, everyone knew Jesus could heal Lazarus, right? And, you know, th the friends of Lazarus, friends of Jesus came Found him in this other town, he’s in freaking out, right? Same thing. Storm, it’s raging, it’s whatever. You need to get over there and, you know Heal him like if you care about him because we know he’s your good friend. Like they they they had a a c a really close relationship according to the Bible. Like they were friends, you know Like if you if you want him around, like you gotta get there now and heal that guy, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And Jesus the Bible says I think probably I think in the King James says tarried three days.

Mark:

Sure. Yeah. Right? This

Justin:

idea that Same thing, just a serenity that says I’m not

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I’m not swayed by the storm.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. You think about it in the context of when he healed the woman with the issue of blood even, you know, it’s uh he’s go he’s going off to uh heal Jarius’s daughter. You know, and and you know, and it’s like this whole crowd is around him and it’s like, you know

Justin:

’cause Jarius is a big deal, right?

Mark:

Yeah, Jarius is a big deal, you know. And, you know, the the lady reaches out and just touches the hem of his garment, you know, and it’s like He says, Who touched me in this crowd? You know, and all the disciples are basically saying

Justin:

out loud.

Mark:

Who didn’t touch you? But yet he was able to say, No, there was something different. And yeah, I mean so yeah. That’s a good word for it too.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah

Justin:

Yeah, like uh just thinking through what you that thought. Like there’s nothing serene about that situation going through a crowded market or whatever.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

um, but to have some sort of internal serenity that can feel the you know the vibrations of the the string, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Across all of this I don’t know, I I just think of it in terms of You know, you asked about what good vibrations were or what or good good vibes. Like something happens way over there and it’s like, mm, I felt something, you know. Yeah. I feel like that Jesus had that connection because of I guess because of that serenity, you know.

Mark:

No doubt.

Justin:

I mean making that connection. But yeah, it’s pretty

Mark:

cool. And it’s interesting as we talk about serenity because I think our culture can look at it as its own thing. You know, like a Zen moment, if you will. You know, good

Justin:

separate moment.

Mark:

Like it like its own entity. You know, and that’s where I appreciate, you know, as we talked about the serenity prayer, how, you know, it starts off with God , you know, because serenity isn’t designed to be our God

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, it’s not something that we are an end goal.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

It’s you know, it’s relationship with God, like through Jesus Christ, that that that we have the ability to be serene and you know, it’s just uh it it really makes me think about that that polarizing dynamic of you know how we can be swayed back and forth and, you know, double minded at times, and yet we have this opportunity to be serene. I don’t know is if you’d consider that the other end. I I would consider it the other end of double-mindedness, but you know In that ability,

Justin:

even if they’re not the other end.

Mark:

Sure. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But I think it’s interesting and and you know we can kinda Uh talk about the prayer itself, you know, serenity prayer as far as that difference between, you know, control And, you know, just that ability that I don’t have to to control, you know, that kind of thing. And I think that’s that’s where Yeah, understanding that I can control some things and there are some things beyond my control. you know, that’s where we can find that peace and knowing the difference.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So yeah, that’s uh since Saturday, you know, that’s a little more of what I’ve been uh wrestling with in that in in that context.

Justin:

Yeah, me too.

Mark:

Yeah

Justin:

We should Mark, you should read the Serenity Prayer for those who don’t know what the heck we’re talking about.

Mark:

Do you have it up? I didn’t I didn’t I can I figured you probably uh Is

Justin:

that big enough?

Mark:

Hey, nice job. I appreciate that consideration. So yes.

Justin:

Is it

Mark:

it is it is big enough. Thanks. Nice job. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time, accepting hardship as a pathway to peace, taking as Jesus did, this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it trusting that you will make all things right if I surrender to your will, so that I may be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with you forever in the next Amen. That’s uh Reinhold Neber.

Justin:

Neuber?

Mark:

Neuber?

Justin:

Nieuber.

Mark:

So yeah, I gotta give the guy credit for the uh the penning of that.

Justin:

Yes

Mark:

But um so yeah what uh as you as you think about that that balance If I if I may.

Justin:

Between knowing what I uh but between current having the courage to change the things I can.

Mark:

Yep You start you it’s the other way.

Justin:

Accepting the things that cannot

Mark:

control or can’t change.

Justin:

The courage to change the channel.

Mark:

Which would

Justin:

wisdom.

Mark:

Yeah, but which side would you say you tend to lean towards?

Justin:

Oh man. Well I talked about this a little bit Saturday, but there’s a there’s this correlation as you become what I call a competent Christian. Right? And where the more competent of a Christian you become. In other words, I d I do my Bible reading and I help people and you know, my tithe or whatever it is, like all kind of

Mark:

works all in order.

Justin:

Yeah, exactly. You’ve you s figured out the the right system that you’re supposed to do and you kinda do that. I feel like And you’ve you know, you’ve seen fruit from those things. But the problem with that is The more we see a correlation between me doing the right things and then good things happening, the more I think we tend to think Well then I should do the next right thing to make this next good thing happen.

Mark:

Mm.

Justin:

And so as a result, I feel like I and many of the quote unquote competent cr Christians I know tend to fall more on the side of You know, I need to have the courage to change these things.

Mark:

You know what I mean? The doing. Yes. The doing of something.

Justin:

Exactly. It’s just a matter of I need to step up to the plate. It’s kinda like you always There’s always just kind of this there’s always more to do. You know in in in if you if you want to keep yeah, keep being that competent Christian, you know.

Mark:

Yeah. Um

Justin:

so that I would say I fall on that. I fall closer to that. And it’s takes genuine work to Do the other two things.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Pray for wisdom and know the difference and then accept when I can’t change it, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It takes intentionality for that. But it’s still w one day at a time, one moment at a time.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Like today I know I’m not supposed to do something about that. Tomorrow flips over.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Uh what about today?

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

What about you

Mark:

That’s interesting. Um ’cause yeah, I’m probably I’m probably closer to that doer type thing taking control. You know, I I I’m I’m happy to, you know, have difficult conversations. It’s part of my job, you know, at times to be able to initiate, you know, what might be what might seem as a daunting Conversation.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So I I and yeah, it’s

Justin:

construction’s a tough world, man.

Mark:

No, it’s funny. I appreciate that. And uh but I was I was thinking about it how often, you know, I’ll see it in the couples that I work with, you know. I’ll see that that balance, if you will, between the one that’s saying, uh, I’m not sure about this. I think we need to pray a little more because I think there’s some there’s a value in that as well.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That we’re not just doing for the sake of doing because we need to because I’m actually anxious and I just want to do Because I have a hard. Yeah. Even right or right or wrong, good or bad, I just want that done. I want it fixed. I want it resolved. So therefore, I’m gonna take control.

Justin:

It makes me think of an analogy of I won’t name names. Certain people have this Tendency or desire to like fix a house problem, right? Like so roof leaking or whatever. Or not just certain people, like that this is a tendency many of us have, right? Where it’s like I just want to fix it. So they’ll get up on a ladder and throw some caulk on it and be like, all right, I feel so much better.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Uh but then the caulk causes this water buildup issue and now but now it’s not leaking like it was. So now water’s collecting in your roof system at some point and you know, over the course of years your your what do you call that? Rafter.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Rafter, right? Yep. Um starts rotting. She ‘s

Mark:

underneath the sheet.

Justin:

Starts rotting. Because it’s not so much moisture now that it’s actually dripping through into your house, but it’s enough that it sits and you’ve now sealed it in to some degree, right? So I think of it that way where it’s like sometimes we rush to take action just to make ourselves feel better. Just to say, okay, the problem is fixed. I took care of it. No worries. And we can move on with our life. But without the correct intention to do it the right way, we it can often cause worse problems, you know. So you made me think of that with the

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I don’t know if that’s where you were going, but it made me think of that.

Mark:

That’s exactly the analogy. Yeah. You know, okay, maybe this isn’t something that I need to change right now. And maybe in some ways it’s just as maybe not courageous isn’t the right word because that’s used with the other, but you know, it’s just as Faith filled to be able to say, okay, maybe now isn’t the time and let’s seek God on this this part And I think that is a part, you know, where the two ki when the two when two individuals or even a single individual for that matter is able to recognize the my tendency to do one or the other and I’m able to do the one that I’m least comfortable with. I think that is the bat that beginning of wisdom where I’m recognizing my tendencies and I’m able to do the thing that I’m not always comfortable doing. I think that’s where wisdom I’m, you know, growing in wisdom, that’s where, you know, okay, help me to understand. you know, which one I need to do today.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

In this context of things I can can’t control and the things I can.

Justin:

Yeah, and uh one of the challenges which I kind of presented too is if you have a tendency towards being a fixer, right? To challenge you to pray about you know, the the balance there to see if God’s calling you to do more of the accepting and less of the courage courageous effort, you know. Yeah. And vice versa, if you’re one who tends to sit on the sideline , maybe pray about whether God’s calling you to courage to step up or, you know, push through some codependence and not being willing.

Mark:

to

Justin:

do or say or be something that you need to because of the codependence or whatever the reason is. Approval addiction, maybe whatever it is.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

You know, but but praying for that third thing, the wisdom to know the difference for each individual because we all I think fall you know more or less on one side or the other.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Competent Christianity or not. You know, some of us struggle with codependency or approval addiction and it’s much harder to do some things because it means we might uh you know

Mark:

ruffle feathers.

Justin:

Ruffle feathers, yeah.

Mark:

Sure. And yet there is the other side of that that you know, that change you know, changing the things I can that might tend to ruffle my own feathers. Because change is a difficult thing sometimes.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And being able to recognize, okay, now this is a change that I need to implement. you know, but I’ve honestly prayed about it to the point that yeah, this is an area that I need to to grow in or challenge myself. I have to yeah. So yeah, it’s uh that’s been uh interesting dynamic between the two as far as okay, what’s wisdom look like?

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

And I think, you know, wisdom can have that, you know, people who have a general wisdom about them tend to be more serene. They tend to be able to say, okay, let’s let’s think about this in the midst of the storm or let’s pray about this or okay, we don’t need an answer right now. You know, that kind of thing.

Justin:

Yeah. That’s good. Y y yeah, you make me think of so much of prov proverbs, you know. A fool does X and a a wise person does Y.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And X is always the frantic quick Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Oh. Yeah, I can think of so many different proverbs. Like one one example is like answering back someone who’s You know, saying something cruel or cr mean or whatever, and a fool will respond in anger and whatever, or a wise person will you know, not say anything or whatever.

Mark:

Yeah. I think I think a slow to speak and quick to listen.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, that kind of thing. The only part that’s quick is the listening, you know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Being able to be slow.

Justin:

Yeah, you definitely mean because wisdom and serenity I d I do feel yeah, that’s a good correlation, I think. And again, I don’t know if they’re the same, but they’re definitely kinda like uh Double mindedness, is that what you’re saying earlier? Uh I

Mark:

spoke of double minded. Yeah, when I was saying they

Justin:

they’re mutually exclusive, serenity and

Mark:

And wisdom.

Justin:

No, I’m saying where those are mutually exclusive, I kind of feel like wisdom and serenity are are mutually inclusive. Where you have one you probably have the other.

Mark:

I hear you. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

Justin:

same thing but they kind of come packaged together.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So if you want one or the other, you can also hunt the other thing. Might come, you know.

Mark:

Yeah. You could see it, be aware of it.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. So then what was the other part that comes after that? After that f initial uh aspect, can you remember?

Justin:

Well I think that’s one moment. Living one live yeah.

Mark:

Living one day at a time

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. And yeah. We talked a little bit about what is it, Matthew six where he talks about You know, he feeds

Mark:

Yeah. The mana principle came to mind for me when you actually put that out there.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know.

Justin:

Oh yeah.

Mark:

As far as how, you know Initially when God was feeding his children, he basically said, Hey, you know,

Justin:

it

Mark:

I’m gonna provide it, but it’s gonna come one day at a time.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

And if you try and do it for two weeks It’s just gonna stink and grow worms, that kind of thing.

Justin:

Or two days even.

Mark:

Yeah. That’s right. Then you do get two days. But yeah, that was that was what came to mind. You know, I appreciated the Matthew part, but that was initially what came to mind for me is that living one day at a time, you know, I you know, I give you the bread you need for today.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Don’t worry about getting bread for tomorrow.

Justin:

Yeah, if you try and hoard what I gave you today, it’s just gonna stink tomorrow.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Like that’s where sufficient is today, the grace, you know, that he’s b he gives us It’s this idea that it’s not gonna last for tomorrow. This grace you’ve been given to deal with today’s problems, you know. There’s no use borrowing from it for tomorrow because

Mark:

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And I think about it in that context of when we are able to do that today is sufficient. You know, I think we have the ability to minimize anxiety in a lot of ways, you know. If it’s up if it’s up to me to provide for my tomorrow, I’m gonna tend to feel a little more anxious because what about well what about the day after tomorrow and what about next week and what about and what about And

Justin:

speaking of competent Christians, I feel like this is another area we get worse at the more practice we get at. Maybe I’ll say religion.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Just to be fair, ’cause But um yeah, the more we get good at doing all the right things, the less we’re comfortable with giving today. Well, I shouldn’t say that. I mean it I guess it guess it depends on if you’re doing the right things for the right reason. I don’t know. I guess just scaling back a little bit and saying I I do feel like generally competent Christians do struggle with the day-to-day trust. intend to be thinking towards the next few days and part of that’s the wisdom, the grasshopper wisdom the ant wisdom that we’re taught, right?

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Does you follow me with that? The ant versus the grasshopper. Yeah, the grasshopper. This is a proverbs as well, but the grasshopper basically, right? Or is it just Aesop’s fable? Maybe it’s both. No, the Bible talks about the ant versus

Mark:

It talks about the ant, yeah. Yes. That it basically prepares for the future.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. And it doesn’t have a king. But yet it they move forward and, you know, prepare for the the seasons.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

So I think

Mark:

there’s wisdom

Justin:

in that, right. But Uh, the grasshoppers, they don’t do that.

Mark:

Oh, okay. I gotcha.

Justin:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um but anyway, the the point is I do think The more we learn to be wise and good stewards of our time and our whatever, the more you do tend to think about those barns you need to build to hold this the the goods that you’re getting in, right?

Mark:

Mm

Justin:

to think of that you know, that analogy we’ve talked about before, the parable that Jesus talked about with the the man building storage barns for all the things he had planned and and kinda how that was

Mark:

Sure. You don’t even know what tomorrow brings. your life may be required of you and

Justin:

But there are also verses that talk about the wisdom of planning and thinking ahead. So it it is a balance and I think that’s where the Serenity Prayer does such a good job of kind of encouraging balance, if that makes sense.

Mark:

Yeah, I’d say Proverbs more so that you hear that balance. I think, you know, I think of the, you know, so often it is that aspect of, you know, don’t get too far ahead of yourself because that’s arrogance, you know. you don’t know what tomorrow may bring.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, so yeah, that’s kinda where I come back to that. One day at a time, one moment at a time.

Justin:

What’s interesting is this moment might be about planning my date tomorrow. And that and that’s okay, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Like but the spending the rest of my day fretting about what I’m doing tomorrow or you know or two weeks or the the barns I’m gonna build. Like that’s that’s where it becomes problematic. But if this moment is the moment that is for that.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

That’s the right thing to be doing in this moment. Does that

Mark:

Yeah, I th and I think there’s a difference and I I like that the idea. There’s a difference between planning and saying, okay, ideally this is a goal that I want to go, but I still hold that in a way that’s loose enough that I’m not, you know, controlling in that mindset to the point of okay, I’m gonna do this and then this is gonna happen. You know, and I’m gonna do that and that and that and that’s gonna happen. It’s like, no.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

Don’t put all those eggs in that basket.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yep. Yeah, so and again I like this part ’cause it focuses us on a daily effort, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But it even breaks it down to work ’cause you know not every day is the same throughout the day either. You might have a good start to your day and then you get a phone call You know, and now everything goes to crap in a handbasket.

Mark:

There you go.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

That’s a Justinism.

Justin:

It is, it definitely is. It’s a mixture of colloqu colloquialisms.

Mark:

There you go.

Justin:

That’s a hard word to say.

Mark:

Nice job.

Justin:

You try it.

Mark:

I’m good with colloquialism.

Justin:

Yeah, that works.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Parler.

Mark:

Parlor.

Justin:

Nail it. Yeah. Nail it.

Mark:

Takes a little practice. But

Justin:

great.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Anyway, the point is Your day can go bad, right? Or it can go good. But it it’s it sometimes we need to break it down even to the moment to say, let’s do this serenity thing in this moment. I thought I had it on lockdown this morning when I did my prayer, whatever, but now it’s like

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I got crap in a handbasket, so let’s let’s find some serenity in that basket.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know.

Mark:

And as it goes forward, the uh the aspect of not being in the moment. Because I I do I I like if just personally as I’m thinking about you know so often, I do think the present or the right now is a gift.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I like that that play on words because so often we minimize the gift of right now.

Justin:

Mm

Mark:

in exchange for what I did in the past or you know

Justin:

or the plan for tomorrow.

Mark:

Or the plan for tomorrow And it robs us of this momentary gift when we start thinking too futuristic Yeah, and just being able to recognize this moment is a gift.

Justin:

That feels very nuggety to me. I think I I think I’m gonna work on on meditating on that concept.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

About disc it it really it really make I don’t know Just hit me right, you know. Okay. Especially as this time of year where I start to struggle a little bit sometimes, seasonal d affected disorder, that whole thing.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um, I think Well, I know part of that tendency is to be looking towards the next few days and it’s like it’s all the same. You know, I don’t know, there’s something about that that we’re something tips over to where it’s like Yeah, tomorrow’s the same and it’s enjoyable to oh tomorrow’s the same, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But I think you’re right. Or I like what you’re saying and I think that’s maybe a tool that I’ll try and embrace is to say, forget tomorrow. What’s right now? Right now I get to be with Mark and there’s a nice breeze coming in the window. The birds are singing.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know, we get to talk about serenity. This is a good moment. Yeah. I don’t need to worry about tomorrow or next Wednesday being the same, you know.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Or whatever it is.

Mark:

Yeah, next Wednesday morning won’t be the same. We won’t have the same topic. But yeah.

Justin:

But you’ll be sitting there. I’ll be sitting here. And these lights will be on and those birds will be singing.

Mark:

Yep. And the sun will still be in the process of coming up.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

Yeah

Justin:

Although when does daylight savings happen?

Mark:

Oh good point.

Justin:

Anyway.

Mark:

It’s end of the month. End of the October I think.

Justin:

Okay. Round things. Yeah, so next week it’ll basically be about the same. Yeah. Anyway, uh back to what you’re saying about the being robbed, I think that happens a lot to me. Again, in that struggle, I think that’s part of the robbery that happens, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

The heist.

Mark:

Exactly. Yeah. You allow yourself to be hijacked to a certain degree.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Alright, so the next part.

Mark:

Oh.

Justin:

No one likes the next part.

Mark:

Yeah. Or the lack.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It’s like why can’t I have peace without that pathway?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. We talked.

Mark:

Go ahead.

Justin:

Go ahead. We talked a little bit about that and how it’s peace doesn’t out isn’t always preceded by hardship, right?

Mark:

Hmm. Well, I think it I think it is the hardship that helps us to identify peace even if it’s not preceded by.

Justin:

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mark:

In that in that process to be able to recognize and I and I think that’s where that like when I th when I think about, you know, the history that Decape Fear could tell, that’s that’s where that comes from for me You know.

Justin:

Yeah, the depth that you were referring to. Yeah.

Mark:

Exactly. Where you know it’s like, no, I’ve seen I’ve seen some things. You know, that body of water has seen some things. If it could tell, it’s not the personify anything, but you know what I mean. And I think, you know, people are like that as well, you know, in that ability to say, no, I’ve seen some stuff and this is a

Justin:

By comparison.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

This is a good moment.

Mark:

This is a good moment. And it’s and it’s okay. You know and even in the difficult moments, you know, it’s like, okay, there’s the storm is gonna end.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And and peace will come back. Because I do think at times our tendency is to s you know think in such ways that say, well, this is gonna last forever. You follow me, you know, especially in those emotional states.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, this is this is gonna last forever.

Justin:

Yep. Good and bad.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Yeah. Oh, valid point. On the good part, I think, you know, we tend to we tend to, you know, catastrophize to a certain degree that this, you know, terrible moment is gonna my the rest of my life is gonna be terrible now.

Justin:

Yeah, I just think about certain situations uh where people are so stuck emotionally. You said emotionally, right? So like you said it’s going like they’re in an argument or whatever and this is this is life. This is permanent.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Right. And then You know, one sleep later and

Mark:

Yep

Justin:

at the beach everything’s happy. This is life Right. Like it the other life is done, this is the new one. And uh we c yeah, when when we’re not um I I guess I would say emotionally mature, we c tend to do that. Uh Roller coaster. Roller coaster. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And so if this is my new life, it’s gonna be happy like this, then of course I’m gonna be doubly happy because this is like permanent, right? Like this is the best thing in the world. And then same thing when Oh, you’re telling me this is life, this is terrible, this is the worst thing in the world. And you it accentuates every one of those humps, right? Yeah. And elongates them, right?

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah

Justin:

Yeah, but like you said, if there’s some depth there that when the storm comes, you know, I’ve seen some things, been there, done that. I I know what these can look like. This one could be worse, this one could be less bad, but I’ve I’ve I’ve been around, you know.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Should be able to have some level of I guess serenity despite the storm.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, and that that peace that you can actually maybe borrow against. Right.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yep. That you know that this you know, well even s even living here, you know, each time there’s a tropical storm out there, you know, you hear that murmuring that goes through the area, you know, and then It’s like routinely, I’m gonna put that word out there, you know, routinely the storm rarely hits full on, you know, in that. But yet There’s typically this thought that oh yeah, it’s heading our way.

Justin:

This is the big one.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, it’s kind of interesting how, you know, different people view it differently. You know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Well, it’s funny w someone else mentioned this and I I thought it was kind of funny too where this kind of goes against your point. But when uh enough of those happen You know, you get a few years of duds.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And we all kind of go

Mark:

complacent.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And then you get hit b with a big one and no one put the boards on the windows. No one no one left town. Right? Like I feel like that’s that ends up being the the perfect storm is

Mark:

Yeah, yeah. No, I hear where you’re coming from. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So yeah, there’s also wisdom in that. Go ahead.

Mark:

No, there’s wisdom in that. Go ahead.

Justin:

In that recognizing what could be and

Mark:

Yes. Valuing.

Justin:

Yes. Yeah.

Mark:

What could be. What could still happen, but recognizing it may not happen.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

And I’m okay either way, you know, ’cause I’m I guess the w the thing of it is it’s like uh I remember a story a a fella talked, you know, about a farmer that had a hired hand or something and you know we hired him he said you know I can sleep I can sleep when the the the storm comes. You know, and from that perspective, you know, they had a big storm, you know, and his and the farmer was up but yet his hired hand was sleeping because he had basically prepared and had had everything ready so he could sleep when the storm came because of the preparedness that you know he had provided. It wasn’t about just doing something when the storm is coming. Yeah. It’s about continuing to be prepared and and keeping yourself in a disciplined state of readiness, you know, by your daily life. Yeah. But that that actually reminded me of the second part. Um accepting is that accepting this world as it is?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

As no. Accepting the world.

Justin:

Accepting harsh past taking

Mark:

this world as Jesus did

Justin:

the sinful world.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Not as I would have it.

Mark:

Yeah, that definitely describes your your roller coaster from my perspective. You know, because we in this world you will have trouble.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But take heart, I have overcome the world.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know. So to be able to and I and I think so often you know, versus the roller coaster when we can accept the fact that there’s gonna be hardship, there’s gonna be difficult times We’re not necessarily surprised when the difficult time comes.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And it isn’t a terrible, awful thing. We recognize that that’s what part of this world is. This isn’t nirvana.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

You know, this isn’t heaven. This isn’t designed to be heaven.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

But it’s part of this world as it is.

Justin:

And the closer we get to Jesus, the more when those storms come we have the ability to sleep through it, right? Like we have the ability to have an innate sense of serenity that says There’s something more powerful than this powerful thing, this bad thing, this whatever. And I ain’t scared. You know, like Yeah, even if I get swept off the boat, like, I’m not scared. Even if I drown, I’m not scared, you know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Because I think sometimes we Encourage that sense of faith that says, God won’t harm me.

Mark:

Ah, sure.

Justin:

Right? Like and it’s certainly in that story with Jesus, he wasn’t harmed, right? Right. Um, but we but sometimes we place our faith and we say that’s the faith God wants me to have, is that I’m invincible with him. Mm-hmm and I believe that’s misguided.

Mark:

I hear you.

Justin:

Because the invincibility you get with him is an eternal relationship with him that cannot be changed through any circumstance, including death.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

That’s the invincibility you’re granted.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Short of that, we have no guarantees. We get some promises in the Bible about various you know, principles and stuff like that that we can hold to. But um we’re not guaranteed anything beyond that uh eternal relationship with him.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So the invincibility needs to be w the what Paul described where he was shipwrecked, he was bitten by snakes, and he was it never shook his faith or made him doubter because his belief in his invincibility wasn’t in no harm befalling him. And then when harm came, there’s this abandonment that can occur.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

This betrayal of I thought you would take care of me as your son, as, you know, this creature you love.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And yet look where we are.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And That’s an unfortunate way to that’s it’s it’s a misplaced faith, I believe, to say harm me. I can pray that he won’t harm me. I can ask that. I can have faith that he will protect me.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But I can also accept that if he doesn’t, right. There’s also goodness in that.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And that’s an invincibility. To be able to say if the storm comes, if I fly off the boat, if I drown, all of that is fine. Sure. No, no, no. All of that is. Yes.

Mark:

Eternally.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

The safest place the safest places with Jesus either way, regardless of my yeah.

Justin:

And on top of it, when the storm is raging, I know the landscape’s going to be different. So there is a level of faith we can and should have that says something something’s happening here and it’s beyond my comfort and whether I fall off the boat or not, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And so with or without my comfort God’s good and he’s doing something.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know, and we can cling to that.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

All that’s easier said than done. Just I’m not I’m I’m not claiming that I’m just saying that can be a a pr uh uh issue we run into where we We pray these prayers, we get to this place we okay, God’s gonna protect me, you know, and I won’t have any harm or I won’t have any discomfort. Dis discomfort’s another one. It’s like God never w never promised dis lack of discomfort or a comfortable existence.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

No, I appreciate that. in that aspect of sometimes our we have unhealthy expectations of how God is going to do or provide certain things. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Taking the simple world as it is.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Not as I would have it.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Yeah, and that’s the other thing is like the disciples look at the storm and go, Why would you let this go on like this? you know?

Mark:

Mhm.

Justin:

And Jesus wasn’t about correcting all the bad in front of him.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know what I mean? He was very purposeful in his time here. He could have walked through towns and as he walked through they just all followed him.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

And just their hearts were converted just by seeing him. Like there’s n there’s no limit to his power. He could have done that. He could’ve kind of overrode you know, our perception of free will and said, I love you too much to leave you in your junk, so you’re coming. Sorry. You know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know, like I th that’s just the amount of power there that we But he did. He said, This is this is a simple world. I’m here to redeem it through the plan that my father created. And set out from the beginning of time and we’re gonna do it that way.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Not the way in this moment it looks like it should be.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know what I mean?

Mark:

I do and I I think about it in that context of There’s a there’s a tremendous amount of power in my ability to accept something for the way that it is. You know.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

Because if I if I just try to think about something and it’s like, well, it should be different, it should be this, it should be that, you know, but when I’m able to say, okay, yes. Um, you know, my f my father is an alcoholic, you know. Well when I come to an acceptance of that you know, for what it is, then then I’m prepared to be able to say, okay, that’s what an alcoholic does.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

And it’s not that it’s my preference. But yet once I come to that acceptance and I’m no longer trying to I don’t I know I’m no longer falling victim to enabling, you know, this is what it is, but I still have this ability to choose what I do. There’s a tremendous amount of power in that.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

You know, and I and I think that when I think of it in that context, you know, you know, people people are gonna say mean things, you know, people are gonna do different things in a sinful world. And so yet if I’m able to recognize that, yeah, that’s why Jesus came, because there this is a sinful world. You know, then when those barbs come or you know, those flaming arrows to a certain degree come, it’s like I’m not surprised by that.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

I’m not disappoint I may be disappointed, but you know what I’m saying? I’m I’m able to recognize that Okay, this is part of where I live right now.

Justin:

Yep. This is part of the package deal.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yep. We’re and we’re like, we didn’t sign up for that. Yeah you did. You were born into a simple.

Mark:

There’s nothing to sign. There’s nothing to sign, but yeah, you’re here.

Justin:

Like it or not.

Mark:

Nobody got the opportunity to sign anything. So yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, that acceptance, the power there. That’s that’s pretty incredible. At CR we talk about if only ‘s.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Shoulds was what you were saying, but it’s kind of that same idea as we get hung up on the preferences and every time the bad thing happens, you know, especially in insanity which is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results, which is one of the key um uh that uh symptoms you should look for in your life if if you’re in need of you know, some sort of w w what we call recovery, which is really just healing, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um, but is this every time this thing happens, your natural reaction to it is thinking about if only it was different.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And that’s you know, like you talk about alcoholic father, for instance, and you know, he does another thing and you’re like, if only he loved me the way that father loves their son, right? If only he, you know, showed up to you know, one of these public gatherings in a way that wasn’t embarrassing to me, or if only you know, if only unf we can get stuck in those that if only loop where and the circumstance moves on, we move on, and then the circumstance comes back and we’re immediately back in the if only ‘s and we’re not Focused in this moment, this day. We’re focused on some non-existent other universe. Not even a different day, not the future, not the past, a different universe Right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Like that universe doesn’t exist where your father’s not an alcoholic using this analogy, right? Like that that’s never ever I mean right at this moment. Right. And uh the past too. Like you’re not changing this because that That universe you’re envisioning is a father who had a healthy upbringing, never got addicted to alcohol.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And as a result was able to be the kind of father that he should be.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

That universe doesn’t exist. Even if today, snap, gone. He’s he’s no longer an you know alcoholic or whatever.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

That’s still not the universe that exists today.

Mark:

Exactly. Yeah.

Justin:

But yeah, we get stuck in that alternate universe, which is a real shame because this universe could really use us. You know?

Mark:

Yeah, no doubt. Yeah.

Justin:

Good stuff.

Mark:

No doubt. And then the following that up?

Justin:

Trusting

Mark:

That you will make all things right if I surrender to your will, so that I may be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with you forever and the next. I appreciate the starter there, my friend. Yeah.

Justin:

That’s tested Mark’s memory. He did great.

Mark:

Well, like you say, once you it’s like the pledge of allegiance. I pledge. Somebody starts off with I pledge and typically you can follow

Justin:

Yeah, for those who don’t go to CR haven’t been involved, like we read that at the end of every Friday night, like kind of wrap up the night. So it is very much Pledge of Allegiancy for us. Yeah, that’s true. No doubt. That’s good.

Mark:

Yeah. What comes to mind there for you?

Justin:

Well, I think one key word there is all. Right, trusting that he will make all things right. Because kind of going back to what we were saying , we’re not promised perfection here or lack of

Mark:

Sure. It does?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I don’t think it does.

Justin:

What does it say?

Mark:

I think it says God works all things. And that that’s always important.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because we can tend to think about all things. working now it’s God working all things. Yeah.

Justin:

That’s that’s the supreme ingredient. That doesn’t work without that. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But again, the key word in that verse for me is the all.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right. To kind of tie back to this is something about all.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That requires a level of faith that I think a lot of us struggle with.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Oh?

Mark:

Yeah, exactly.

Justin:

Because you can name a lot of pretty nefarious things. Pretty much

Mark:

death, cancer, you know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Kids abused.

Mark:

Yeah

Justin:

Child pornography?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right? Like all

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Oh. You know, and Yeah. That requires a level of faith that is a stretch for any believer. I believe.

Mark:

No, I hear you.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That makes sense it does

Mark:

and and again I come back to that serenity and the wisdom that realizes Uh quite often as we’ve as we gain a depth to our lives we can see how those circumstances have worked.

Justin:

We start to s have evidence stack up over the course of our life.

Mark:

Yes. Because even in those difficult times, we can see how lives have been transformed.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

you know, or circumstances ultimately or changed, you know, to where we’re able to recognize, no, it’s not it’s not necessarily all the things. It’s God working. And and being able to recognize that and and ultimately being able to trust in a sense of faith that says, okay, even if I have this in my life, or even if, you know. I’ve had this experience. Th part of that may be uh as I find my own healing, I may be able to help others find healing in that process by God’s grace. So yeah, it’s just kind of a Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s really good. And then in terms of the really nefarious things like I think sometimes we lose sight of or i it i g it it’s very abstract for us to have this idea of some judgment day, right? That at some point judgment will be doled out, right? And it’s like, yeah, that sounds nice, but I want justice right now and I want that thing bad thing done and gone or, you know, justice done to where they they paid the penalty right now. Because we can’t fathom that kind of eternal judgment day, that like final thing, and it doesn’t feel real to us. But the fact is it’s very real. So when it says he will make all things right, it’s n it’s no joke. It’s it’s gonna happen.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And there can be some serenity if you’re able to h believe that in faith. Because again, that’s abstract, it’s future, it’s it’s truly a different universe, right? But it’s a it’s truth, you know.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Um, so I think that can also help. So not only will he you know, he can make good things out of bad and all that, but also there are some bad things that will be dealt with.

Mark:

Oh sure.

Justin:

Right. And so there is uh justice that will occur. But if we

Mark:

even now. Yeah. Some in some cases we will see justice even now.

Justin:

Yep

Mark:

But ultimately even if we don’t, we can you know, recognize it will happen in the future.

Justin:

If every situation was met with the justice that we expected, mm, then we wouldn’t be able to go to heaven. Because that justice would prevent that, right? Um it y you know, obviously Jesus paid the penalty, so that justice was is covered. I guess you know. But W we often expect a hundred and twelve percent justice with everyone but us. For us we expect that mercy and like w you know, a little bit of leniency and a little bit of grace. Right. Um Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. So all things.

Mark:

Yes indeed.

Justin:

We surrender.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

So I think the key there though is that He won’t just make it right if we surrender. It’s that we’ll understand it tr he can you know I mean like

Mark:

we’ll trust If we can trust him and surrender, we’ll see that process happen.

Justin:

Or or trust where we can’t see because we can see where it did. Kinda to your point about the depth.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

No, yeah. Yep. Yeah. That I may and then it goes on that I may be reasonably happy in this life. Mm-hmm. And I and I and I like that in that of course I’m my perspective is this ability to think and feel. So I think about that in that reasonably happy, you know, to be able to think in such a way that it’s reasonable and recognize my happiness may be momentary. Mm-hmm. You know, and it will come and it will go. My feelings will come and they will go. But ultimately If I’m in walking in wisdom, I’m gonna be reasonably happy.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and then supremely happy when that eternal dynamic is squared away. And I can trust him for that as well. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, I know uh in our little group some people didn’t like the word reasonably. Right? Like that doesn’t seem like what God wants for us. only reasonable amount of happiness. And so we had a good discussion about that. And what’s funny is we went to dinner with some friends that night and some of them that were there was there. But we were talking about oh, you’re talking about the serenity prayer and someone in that dinner group who wasn’t there. You know, there’s only one thing I don’t like about that that prayer. It’s reasonably happy, you know. And like so we could It was really fun because I got to hear some of them present some of the thing. They’re like, Well actually we talked about that and they’re yeah, it was it was cool because um that was one of the things I said is I actually really have come to love that phrase.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Because for me as a petulant baby human, I want supreme happiness right now. Give it to me now.

Mark:

Every moment.

Justin:

Yeah, exactly.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And um what I’ve recognized through the course of my life is that it are through the moments hardship is a pathway to peace. So through the moments of hardship and difficulty is when I grew and I have a deeper, better relationship with my father in heaven and everyone on this earth as a result of going through moments that are not happy.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So is it reasonable to expect supreme happiness. Is it reasonable to just say I should never not be happy?

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

I mean, come on.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Also reasonably, it’s almost like you hear it as Barely.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Which is not what reasonably means. Right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It means within reason.

Mark:

Yeah, we tend to think in terms of that uh, you know m more all more than I can ask or imagine type thing comes to mind.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

But yeah, it’s it’s not that. It’s just the ability to be able to recognize, yes, right now I can be reasonably happy.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And when even that verse, him giving us over and above what we can ask or imagine comes with growth. Sure. And growth hurts.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Justin:

But we you know, we associ Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Just misassociation I think or maybe just

Mark:

unhealthy expectation.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Not being reasonable.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

For a sinful world. Yeah. As it is.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

However, at some point we’ll be extracted from the simple world. Therefore, our happiness will no longer be reasonable.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Because it won’t be limited by the sinful nature of the world that we’re in, including my own sinful nature, and that’s where we get supreme happiness forever with him in the next world, you know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And that was one of the things we talked about too, is like again, one of the reasons I like this prayer is that it every time you do it, it ends with that promise. So no matter everything preceding that line you still have that.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Which kind of goes back to what we were saying about serenity. When you have that inner sense of that thing’s coming and that thing’s real and that thing is supreme in my happiness. it can help put the rest in perspective, granting that serenity. Right.

Mark:

Yeah. And I like that in the context of it it’s not like we’re that bird just flitting around trying to find happiness, you know. It’s it’s being able to recognize it’s like it’s not offered, you know, extensively, you know, unconditionally all the time here. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yep. Yeah. Any other thoughts? That uh that pretty well wraps the the last verse up.

Justin:

Amen.

Mark:

Yeah, amen. Amen.

Justin:

No, yeah, I mean we d yeah. It was a good time of discussion. I really enjoyed it. It was cool to hear other people’s perspectives on you know, on the various phrases and I think It’s fun to break things apart like that and really stop and slow down.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know what I mean?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And if you’re gonna do that with something, the serenity prayer is a great thing to do with that with the Bible is a That’s what preachers do every Sunday, right? You know, mo a lot of preachers, right? Especially extemporaneous, right? Is that the one where you preach through

Mark:

the story?

Justin:

Which was the one where you preach through verses and Uh kind of one at a time. I think that’s extemporary. Yeah. But the point is that like when you’re going verse by verse, that’s a great opportunity to slow down and talk about each individual word and what it kind of means in the context in it.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It’s like you can really dive deep or you can go broad and the button.

Mark:

Yeah, I guess I didn’t think about it in that terms of uh What a what a word, but it we’re not comparing it. It’s a serenity prayer. It’s not how it’s necessarily used in the Bible. I’d just be curious what the the Greek word for serenity would be, you know, in that, you know, but It would yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

It’s the name of a prayer. It’s not a verse that we’re pulling out of to be able to find the context for that. So yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, everything in there is biblical though, which is cool.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It’s like

Mark:

It’s a good prayer.

Justin:

It is.

Mark:

Maybe not maybe, you know, not as good as the Lord’s prayer, because he was the Lord, but you know, if uh you know, if we’re if you’re gonna reflect on a prayer, it’s not a bad one to be able to model some prayers after.

Justin:

I’ve actually thought about it th kind of this concept that you’re bringing up, but it’s like this is not the Bible, right?

Mark:

Yeah, it’s

Justin:

some prayer some guy wrote. And yet there’s also just like the guy uh God preserved the Bible, right? Sure. It’s his word, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I believe he’s also preserved other things that just man wrote, except I would argue that it was co-written, you know, in the sense that it was you know, inspired by the Holy Spirit and maintained by the Holy Spirit. So surrender prayer I think is a good one. It’s been through so many recovery, you know, systems, including ones that aren’t Christ based.

Mark:

No, I hear you.

Justin:

Um the other thing that I think of is like amazing grace. The hymn. Like hymns are falling away, and yet that one will never be gone, right? I I don’t I can’t imagine it would ever disappear from culture.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

What do you think?

Mark:

No, I t I I’m hearing where you’re coming from in that context and it was uh

Justin:

And I’m not trying to elevate any of this d stuff to the level of the Bible, but I am trying to elevate it from just some dude wrote it doesn’t matter. Well, if it didn’t matter, God it probably would have disappeared. It it does matter.

Mark:

Yeah. And I and I think there can be, like you’re saying, this preserving that the Holy Spirit does, you know, just because he can.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

In this context of and I and I think in some ways you know, what is true, you know, is maintained by God.

Justin:

Yeah. You yeah, you made me think of your phrase, truth is truth

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Right, you’ve said that before. I can tell you the exact moment you said it

Mark:

Okay. I I typically say all truth is God’s truth.

Justin:

That was it. Yes. Okay. Thank you. Okay.

Mark:

That’s okay. I may have said truth is truth, but

Justin:

I mean it’s kind of the same thing. If all truth is God’s truth,

Mark:

all truth is God’s truth.

Justin:

Then all truth is truth. Right?

Mark:

It sounds like one of those red herring things, you know, where it’s a s it’s a circulatory uh uh argument type thing

Justin:

is what is what came to mind. For me it’s more like uh it is what it is.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Truth is truth. Can’t argue with it. No, I like that. Uh sorry. All truth is God truth. Yes, that’s that’s the version that’s about

Mark:

But I like truth is truth. It’s like coming around. It’s something you could say in a moment where you know

Justin:

it is what it is. Truth is truth. Sorry you don’t like it. Truth is truth.

Mark:

That’s how I see it. Fair enough. No, that wasn’t necessarily meant to be a uh a signing off, but appreciate you sharing your perspective on that.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for ruminating some more on it.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Bringing it back.

Mark:

Yep. I was uh I was glad we didn’t uh have talked haven’t we have we hadn’t talked about serenity before, so it made a good opportunity. So yes.

Justin:

We’re getting to enough episodes now that we have to look in the old spreadsheet of all. Yeah, just to make sure. Yeah. Did we talk about Suriname? Yeah, I don’t see it in here anywhere.

Mark:

Because I tend to think about I tend to think about ’em for some reason you you have that really nice script that you do. And it’s like, so I’m actually very visual. It’s like, I might have seen this before.

Justin:

Right. Scripty serenity.

Mark:

Yeah, that scripty serenity. But it might have been Holy Spirit.

Justin:

We’re seeing the future.

Mark:

It might have been Holy Spirit. It did kind of have that uh that feel to it as far as Yeah. Spirit. But yeah. So either way, this is how we see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit dot click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C-L-I -C-K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.