Mark:

Hey, I’m gonna say something.

Justin:

Say something.

Mark:

I did.

Justin:

Good job.

Mark:

You want me to say it again?

Justin:

Uh no, you’re good.

Mark:

Okay. Good deal. Glad to hear it Good morning, sir.

Justin:

Good morning, Mark.

Mark:

Good to see you, Justin.

Justin:

It’s good to see you.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

In this lovely setting.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

It’s a little bit darker.

Mark:

Little bit darker.

Justin:

A little bit rainy this morning.

Mark:

A little bit rainy this morning. I’m glad it’s not as humid as it was last night though.

Justin:

Whew.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It felt like it was raining. Oh

Mark:

only it wasn’t. Yeah. Yeah. It was a little humid. But that’s alright too.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Question for ya.

Justin:

Uh

Mark:

yeah, you got you good? Are you ready?

Justin:

We’ll see. We’ll see.

Mark:

Go ahead and take your sip of coffee. I’ll I’ll I’ll uh Fill the w fill the fill the gap there for just a moment.

Justin:

Alright, let’s go.

Mark:

Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg.

Justin:

This is a podcast that works to counter cultural Polarization through thoughtful conversations.

Mark:

When was the last time you laughed at yourself? How long has it been, if you will? And what was the circumstance?

Justin:

I actually can’t remember.

Mark:

Really?

Justin:

Yeah. I don’t think I laugh at myself very much.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I’m not I’m not saying that’s an indicator, yeah, but I think there’s something to be said for the ability to laugh at ourselves.

Justin:

Yeah. I agree.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, I agree. I

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Um Yeah, I’m not saying m me not doing it means I don’t Think it’s good. I just don’t recall.

Mark:

Yeah, that’s fair enough. I’m d I definitely that was one out of left field, that kind of thing.

Justin:

What about you?

Mark:

Um, let’s see. I I would say probably around, you know, last week in the process of, you know, mom ‘s death and that kind of thing, you know, because it’s just you know, there’s a there’s probably a level of intensity and, you know, and sometimes laughter is that way of coping, you know, for me with that. You know, and yet I can admit in that dynamic that I’ll make a mistake or I’ll I’ll fall into a pattern, you know, in my family system. And I know there was times when I’d say, ha ha nice job. Or, you know, not necessarily, but it was to the point of recognizing that I had done something that I probably w wouldn’t have otherwise done. And I laughed at myself kinda in that process of being able to say, you know, yeah, okay, that’s who you are That kind of thing. And as it it’s just kind of been a I guess a re

Justin:

Like what’s an example if you can give one I’m trying to like

Mark:

You think

Justin:

I’m trying to understand or trying to picture I’m trying to picture it.

Mark:

Sure. Like in the in the process of uh having a conversation and you’re you’re explaining what you’re doing or you’re kind of Here’s I’ll I’ll preface, okay. There are those in my family who might think that I’m fairly intense. Okay, and maybe there’s those outside my family. I don’t necessarily see myself as an intense person.

Justin:

Interesting.

Mark:

Yeah. And

Justin:

I mean I guess it d depends on how you define intensity, but

Mark:

it is is is I think there’s an aspect of intentionality that Um is is intentional.

Justin:

Engaged. I would also call you engaged.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So if you put those together, I guess you know.

Mark:

I could be intense.

Justin:

One could call that intensity. But

Mark:

even disciplined.

Justin:

Yeah. Yep.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

I typically think of intensity uh that person’s intense is

Mark:

there’s a serious

Justin:

in your face.

Mark:

Yes. Like things are serious.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think there is that point, you know, where, you know, and we’ve talked about that. I think I talked about that even in the parenting dynamic, you know, when we talked about parenting and the ability to kind of say, maybe maybe in hindsight, maybe I shouldn’t have taken myself so seriously at times as my role as a parent. Okay. So in that in that family dynamic, sometimes when I’m having these discussions You know, I will find myself laughing based on the fact that, yeah, I do that

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, it’s and when it’s being called out or addressed or I see myself doing that very same thing that we’ve kind of identified, I’ll laugh at myself

Justin:

Gotcha.

Mark:

Just cause I’ll just say, ha yep, you did it again. Not in a not in a you know uh demeaning fashion, but just in a fashion that has an awareness.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I kind of laugh at myself.

Justin:

Yeah, it makes sense.

Mark:

Does that make sense? That’s that’s kinda

Justin:

caught up now.

Mark:

And I think, you know, I in that process, you know, there can be an intensity. And I and I’m willing to recognize for a lot of people um this seriousness or intensity or even maybe a perfection can be circumstantial Because we talked about excellence. And it’s kind of been out of that too that I’ve kind of had some conversations about, you know, when is it when is it too much? Like you had shared on your um when you’re coding. Sometimes you can go so far in that, you know, desire for perfection that you don’t get anything done.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And so like you s and it and it’s and it was funny ’cause yesterday morning I happened to be just driving down the road and you know and there was a it happened to be a woman. I’m not saying but there was a lady, it was like right on my bumper. It’s like You know, and it’s like, wow, this is this is this is a little intense. Granted, 211 can get intense, but it was like I finally got to the point where I just kind of slowed up and waved her on by. And you know, and she gave me this look and you know, and not to say that a guy couldn’t do that as well or I haven’t I or that I haven’t done it. It just happened to be. And it it made me think about Wow, you know, that was that was pretty s she was pretty intense in that moment. Pretty serious in that moment.

Justin:

That’s what I think of. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. And I think, you know, it’s like there of course there’s that part of us when someone is being intense with towards us will say something to the effect of, well, maybe you should have left five minutes earlier, and then you wouldn’t have to be so intense. Mm-hmm. or so serious. But you know, they c it kinda came to my mind as it’s like, seriously?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

It it’s

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So that that’s kind of where that that thought was coming from. And I was Thinking about it in the context of uh what makes that for us as individuals And how seriously because I honestly looked this up. I la I looked up to see if there was a uh like a a serious assessment. You know, if if y you could tell I I probably should have made

Justin:

it This kind of ties into our swimming analogy too a little bit, maybe.

Mark:

Maybe. Maybe. Yeah.

Justin:

But yeah.

Mark:

I looked it up and you know it’s all it was all about risk assessment and business and stuff like that. You know, I probably I know you and I have talked about it before that, you know, you have a way of searching things, you just put in two words. And it comes up what you want, and I put in the whole sentence and it’s like I get way over in the weeds. But I couldn’t yeah, I couldn’t necessarily find it. But it made me think about it as far as, okay How seriously do we take ourselves and what makes that difference? Thoughts? Um

Justin:

so like everything you’d probably say it’s a continuum, right?

Mark:

There’s a s I uh But the the interesting part of it is there’s probably a continuum. And yeah, I would also say that I would be in different, I might be in different spots on that continuum based on the circumstances that I’m in.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I might even just be, it’s funny because I could imagine or I could see it for myself and other individuals even shifting dramatically on that.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. I I yeah, like that you make me think of the driving situation and m what when I’ve been in that situation rushing, right? And

Mark:

sure.

Justin:

Um and I was just talking to someone about this the other day too and Um the thing is when we’re when we choose poorly you know, we don’t leave on time.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? Whatever it is. Um our first thing is not like Well, I need to be humble and you know, like, you know, get to work and apologize and and just I need to do better and you know what I mean?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

We’re like But I’m fine. And we get in the car and we go and everyone else, you know, you’re here to get out of here. Get out of my way. If it wasn’t for you, I’d be a perfectly fine citizen at work on time, but it’s all your fault. Mark, if you didn’t have that trailer, then you wouldn’t be in my way and what ‘s the even on the road? Uh and you know driving is uh kind of this this road situation is something that’s pretty universal that we can kinda all s snap into and go, Yeah, I I recognize that in myself and certainly in others, you know, yes. Kind of anger. And it’s outsized, right? It’s like So yeah, we get so s I guess serious in the car um and what our expectations of those around us are. Um it’s like I don’t know, we turn into these monkey versions of ourselves that can’t be civilized, you know, and and kind of like extend that empathy to that person like well maybe they’re there ‘s some an issue with their tire, so they’re not willing to go beyond this. speed and it’s a safety thing or or perhaps they’re not in a hurry because they got up on time.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know, or whatever. And uh I don’t know. I’ve I I’ve you know, me and a lot of the guys that I do accountability with that’s like a common thing that we kinda joke where we d I guess that’s an example where we kinda laugh at ourselves Uh we’ll we’ll kind of reveal some of the situations while driving that made us frustrated ’cause that’s that’s an you know, that one of the one of the questions is talking about things that make makes you angry or or causes you to have a grudge or whatever. And so it’s like That’s a common theme of just like, well, drivers some days, you know. And uh and we’re able to kind of laugh a at it a little bit because in that context Right. I would say we’re we’re attempting to be the most polished version of ourselves. That’s why we’re even in the room doing that, you know?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And we can look at that monkey version of ourselves and just kinda chuckle, you know? Yeah. Seriously? Like

Mark:

I did that.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. So that’s a the driving is just one of those things that can just instantly put us back into that that monkey brain, you know, that sure that version of ourselves that we’re trying I think most of us, a lot of us, hopefully listener, you are, you know, like trying to be this better version of yourself. You know But it’s like once you get behind that driver’s seat, well, I you know, my my my better self is left outside the door until I get back out. It’s like it reattaches.

Mark:

Hopefully.

Justin:

Yeah, hopefully, right. Right

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But you know, driving’s not the only time we’re we’ll do s something like that. And I I I recognize it myself, uh, especially I would say early on in our marriage, man. This podcast makes me look like a real bad husband, but that’s okay. Um like whenever something would go wrong, if I couldn’t find a scapegoat, it would I would go to Megan for some reason and be like, you know, why’d you do whatever? It’s like It’s like the driving thing. It’s like she didn’t do anything.

Mark:

That was your default.

Justin:

Yeah, exactly. And I think when Honestly, when we feel guilt about our own actions causing us pain, we look for scapegoats. I think that’s a pretty common human trait.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know? And so then we get so serious, right? Because it’s like, well if If you wouldn’t know that person wouldn’t it’s like, you know, we’re we’re trying to find a reason why we did it wrong. It’s not because I did it wrong, it’s because The world is wrong or you’re wrong and

Mark:

if you hadn’t done that, yeah, yeah. That one thing.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Because that one thing was the thing that set me off.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So I mean driving is a good example of that, but I feel like there’s many areas where we could be triggered into that if you know, we let our monkey brain take over.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

What do you think?

Mark:

I that’s that’s where I was at and just kind of thinking about that in that context of, you know, this ability at times to take myself too seriously. Or in a and and and granted, I was as I was wrestling through it thinking of, you know, I mean, granted, we could call it pride, I suppose, you know, that kind of thing. But it just, it was that that word serious that came to my mind as far as, okay, how often do I laugh at myself? Do I take myself you know, more seriously. Oh, and uh another conversation reminded me of it was um the ability that I have to how what how comfortable I am doing something new.

Justin:

Okay, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, you do.

Justin:

And the ability to laugh through it or the or the opposite of that, like super embarrassed and

Mark:

Yeah, or I I just don’t even do it.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

because I don’t want to look like I don’t have, you know, all the capabilities necessary. I’m not at times I’m not even necessarily willing to learn.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because whenever we’re learning something new, we’re we wouldn’t If there again, if I’m watching someone learn something new for the first time, I’m not I’m not gonna be very judgmental. Right.

Justin:

Expectations are pretty low.

Mark:

Yes. But yet If I’m a pretty serious person and I don’t do something well, I’m gonna I’m gonna start probably There might be another time when I’m starting to shift on that continuum. It’s like I’m taking myself pretty seriously, so I’m not gonna you know, laugh at myself. And yet did you have you ever you ever played that uh the game speak out

Justin:

I don’t that doesn’t sound familiar.

Mark:

It’s where you basically take a little plastic cartridge and you put it in your mouth. Stretches your lips and your mouth. So the ability to pronounce P’s and T’s and then you have these phrases you read.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and you know, of course it doesn’t sound like

Justin:

anamanopia.

Mark:

Not quite, but yes. The the enunciation isn’t there. But st but still in that process. provoke this discomfort and the ability to say, okay, cause the second time around it’s not as s I’ll ask, you know, how did that f feel

Justin:

you’ll do that in counsel

Mark:

especially with kids or something you know when they’re when they’re feeling this uh this level a heavier level of uh expectation

Justin:

yeah Do you do it with him?

Mark:

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. That’s that that’s probably another area while I’ll laugh at myself, you know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

‘Cause it is, you know, and then the cartridge.

Justin:

I thought you just like to make them do it and laugh in their face.

Mark:

Oh no no.

Justin:

You can’t say it at all.

Mark:

But everybody gets a different phrase. You know, you read cards and so forth. So yeah, it’s a I will do it with that.

Justin:

Do you clean it between sessions?

Mark:

Uh yes I do. There’s another story behind that.

Justin:

Oh boy.

Mark:

Yeah, hot water at the church. You know, it just takes forever to get there. So I’ll boil a pot of hot water like I’m making coffee and then pour it in the sink just to have hot water. But yeah, nice. I make sure they’re clean. But it is one of those things, you know, it’s like as as I have this high expectation or this ability that to think that I shouldn’t be able I shouldn’t make mistakes.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And then what do I do even in the context of making that mistake

Justin:

Yeah. That’s yeah, very um yeah. I I definitely can think of when I was Yeah, when I was younger, you know, I I’ve talked about this before. I struggled a little bit with some self-esteem, self-confidence, that whole thing. And um it really was about Don’t ever mess up. Don’t ever mess up. You messed up. What’s wrong with you? Why would you mess up, you know, anger at myself? So there was definitely Like uh when I was younger, I got mad at myself a lot because uh I embarrass myself and then I’d be like, You jerk, you know, how ‘d you do that to yourself kind of thing? And um and it was very very much what you’re saying about new things or things that I you know shouldn’t necessarily be amazing at or Even things I should be good at or whatever, supposedly, and sometimes you make mistakes

Mark:

and yeah.

Justin:

Uh I I did not have the ability to laugh at myself. Um and I will say Honestly, the thing that kind of unlocked that in my brain to go, oh, sometimes I mess up and it’s okay.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Because I mess up sometimes. I’m a human being and every other human being messes up. The thing that kind of unlocked that and gave me a sense of freedom in that was my first time in Celebrate Recovery going through the step studies. when we start you know, we were going around you know, you t kinda talk about things that you struggle with, things that um mist you know, mistakes you make or whatever. And it’s just like, you know, we’re all in this together and just hearing you going around the room, everyone kinda answers the questions you go Oh, okay. So that person’s a human. Oh, and that one’s a human and that one too. Well, I guess I am too, so I’ll admit it, you know, and just like something unlocked and I just realized like I’m gonna make mistakes still and and it’ll be okay. Like I can just own up to them and um take myself less seriously. Yeah. I don’t think I got so f you know, far enough past that to where I could laugh at myself very often.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um, I think I think I probably still take myself too seriously, but Certainly there’s some grace there for myself when but it also depends on the context too, like if the stakes are high or Or again, going back to the other thing I was saying, if I had made a mistake already to start me down the wrong path and then I make another one, then it the stakes are higher and it I get frustrated more easily and You know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. So just generally becoming more responsible and making better choices has made a lot of that stuff easier because it’s not like I’m not looking for a scapegoat for my own stupid behavior. Sure Uh, stupid is a strong word. Um, ’cause I think it’s a pretty common thing when y you know, when you’re m maturing is to not make wise choices because you don’t you’re not quite convinced yet That it’s that that that’s yeah, yeah, yeah. Get up early. But like I can do it. It’s fine, you know. And I know how to weave in all the traffic just right and get there on time. It’s like you kinda have this invincible young person. thing, right? And enough of those times of getting stuck behind you know, Mark or whatever it is.

Mark:

Or a school bus this time of year.

Justin:

Right. School buses, yep.

Mark:

Yeah. What are they doing on the road? For crying out loud we didn’t have them for three months, two months, you know, now we got the

Justin:

Who invited you to the party? Yeah. Right. Um and there was certainly many times when I was in my teens Uh rushing around that n just really close calls. Oh bad accident type stuff where It kind of shook me and I’m like, what do you you’re stupid? Like, why do you think you can do this? And that was speeding ridiculous stuff. Like it was the metro area of the Twin Cities. And I would be doing the Through traffic weaving in and out and flying past people and you know the right the wrong person at the wrong time moves in the wrong lane without signaling. It’s just like Uh I mean we had a pretty significant event. I wasn’t driving that time, but my friend was driving and we ended up doing this wh full like spin out thing on the freeway freaking cars. I remember very I have the image burned in my brain where uh we were doing like 90 wow on the freeway And a car came in front of us, so he slammed on the brakes and the right wheel locked up a little bit and the whole car started to shift to the right to where I’m in the passenger seat and I’m looking at the direction we were going out my passenger window

Mark:

At a ninety degree angle it’s like

Justin:

or whatever so like it didn’t roll thankfully or anything. I mean it could’ve, right? Oh sure. But I remember doing that and then he kinda overcorrected and we ended up doing that, you know, swinging back to the other direction and to the point where we uh yeah, we finally s slowed down, stopped, and it’s like all the cars around us were stopped and slowed and it was this intense thing. And that was like one of those things where it’s like, oh. Anyway.

Mark:

Might be taking ourselves a little too seriously. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That invincibility was there. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. That’s Superman kind of yeah.

Mark:

Complex if you will.

Justin:

I guess, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. That was a lot of story for I don’t know what point, but

Mark:

Well, you were talking about traffic

Justin:

that intensity. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Being young and thinking you don’t need to follow the conventional wise routes. Yeah. And get as you get older you kinda go, yeah, probably should Probably shouldn’t speed like that anymore.

Mark:

And the reality

Justin:

two tickets later.

Mark:

Yeah. And the reality of it is you can do all that and it’s like those five people that you pass will be right behind you at the next stoplight.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, in that context. But yes, there was that moment that thought

Justin:

if you speed right, you you can avoid that. I’m just saying.

Mark:

I understand. I understand that you were kidding. That you were kidding in that moment.

Justin:

I mean it was it was sort of this game where it’d be like How far ahead can you know, like I wanted to just know that the efforts I put in made a difference, you know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And yeah.

Mark:

And it’s funny how often those are.

Justin:

I’m laughing at myself now, Mark. Exactly. This is good.

Mark:

Yes. And it’s funny how often all of that effort can be negated almost to a certain point, you know, when we’re really thinking we’re accomplishing something. And I think it’s a valid point. We’re we’re thinking we’re accomplishing something huge and big and nobody’s ever done this before. you know, and yet the next time it’s like, oh, they’re right there.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

You know. It’s that it you know, it’s that process of somebody how many times did would let’s be honest How many times do you get frustrated going behind somebody at fifty five miles an hour?

Justin:

Oh, every time. Yeah. I mean, so here’s the thing. We live in Southport and, you know For most of our listeners you’ll know what that means. And there’s just a lot of retired people, a lot of tourists who are kind of craning their neck looking at things. And so you’re lucky when they go the speed limit sometimes.

Mark:

Sure. Valid one

Justin:

So that that really really resonates to me. And I try you know, that’s again, that’s what we talk about in our little group, is just like You know, learn to have that patience, learn to leave on the

Mark:

you do this at the DMV, do you? You you have your accountability?

Justin:

This is probably a good idea. Obsessions. Yeah. But like you used to be able to buzz across town in Southport, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Especially when uh people went back to school. You know, it was not as it’s just like It you can’t do that anymore. Too many stoplights and too many people going five miles and under this be you know, it’s just it’s you just have to account for it in your planning and I think, you know, it takes a little bit of s it’s a little bit of stubbornness saying, I can do it and you know, like should be this way, you know, it should Yeah. Shouldn’t be like that and Anyway.

Mark:

Yeah. But it is.

Justin:

It is.

Mark:

And then how do we adjust? I think that’s the other part of it. It’s like, are we able to say, okay, this is the way it is, not just in traffic. But in my ability to, you know, try something new, being able to extend to the myself that it’s like, okay, it’s okay to make a mistake.

Justin:

Yeah Yep.

Mark:

So what would if you go ahead. Well

Justin:

earlier you’re talking about when you see it often and when people are learning new things. Mm-hmm. It it kind of made me think of Ultimate Frisbee, right? When we have s new people come out.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And uh like they’ll see us playing or whatever. And I’ll just say this, like as you come in as a newcomer, you think, Frisbee, I can throw Frisbee.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I can run, you know, like those are the two required skills, running and throwing Frisbee. Yeah. Catching, you know. I can do those things and you think I should be as good as those guys. And you immediately get go out there and you’re trying to throw across the field. You’re trying you know, d just doing things thinking that you can be i that good or whatever and it’s like

Mark:

you can do it just like that.

Justin:

Yeah. So sometimes you see people taking it very seriously, very frustrated that like, oh and I can’t believe I couldn’t get it to you kind of thing. It’s like, well Yeah. It’s it’s hard. It’s hard. Like it takes it takes work and skills and and learning and practice and getting your throws swatted down a hundred times and dropping a hundred vers like it’s It’s kind of demoralizing a little bit in the beginning because you think it’s just a little frisbee. Anyone can do that. It’s like, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It it takes that learning. But you can see people You can see that learning process, how that can kinda trigger different versions of being able to laugh at yourself. And some people are really good at laughing at themselves as they start, you know. Um and it it’s almost like, all right, stop laughing now.

Mark:

Yeah. Take this a little more seriously, please. Yes. Right? Yeah. Oh yeah. And I I that would be one area where I would admit I probably take myself a little too seriously at times.

Justin:

Very intense, Mark.

Mark:

I probably am.

Justin:

I probably am.

Mark:

That’s okay. I’m gonna I’m gonna admit that I am. And I’ll admit part of that is I won’t necessarily try. I won’t I I haven’t I haven’t tried to even throw the hammer yet or anything, you know, that’s upside down or, you know, I’m pretty much a short distance straightforward because I will I can admit I can’t I’ll s I use that word, but I just don’t have the ability to throw it as far as some other people. You know, it’s not a matter of learning, it’s just a matter of, okay, I’m at this age And I’m just not going to be able to throw it like a 30-year-old.

Justin:

I gotcha.

Mark:

You follow me or a 40-year-old, that kind of thing. It’s just

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But yeah, so uh

Justin:

yeah, you can definitely Tell those thirty year olds.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. And it’s just, you know, they can throw at the distances of field. It’s like, no, Joseph probably can throw just about as far as I can and he’s coming up, you know, that kind of thing. So yeah, that’s it that’s uh that’s something as you’re talking about, it makes me think about the fact that yeah, I’m probably not even trying at the level that I could try to maybe do a different thoroughly. Sure, I’ll curve it, you know, every now, but it’s gonna be a pretty straightforward through I’m not gonna do a forehand or you know anything like that just yet. But yeah, that’s probably an area where I’m taking myself too seriously. You know, and I’m certainly you know, not necessarily laughing at myself when I make that wrong throw, you know, because I’m I’m bringing that intensity, that level of competition.

Justin:

Yeah, sports is another one, right? Sports is another one can kind of bring out that monkey brain a little bit. Sure. I speaking for myself anyway, more So and

Mark:

I think that’s where I’m I almost want to come back to in some ways. What would you what would you how would you describe that character, if I may say a character flaw that puts us in the, as you call it, monkey brain, you know, where we become reactive. What would what would you what would you how would you describe that character dynamic? What word would you use? I have one that’s coming to my mind, but I just was curious what

Justin:

I mean you just said the word reactive, so now I can’t get my brain off that word, but that’s that’s a good one.

Mark:

Okay. Um I th

Justin:

I think I also want to think defensive, just like

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Yeah. That’s what I got. I guess I and

Mark:

and I think uh that’s that was the funny part ’cause it’s like, how would you describe that? feeling that circumstance in one word. The the one that kind of came to mind for me was maybe a little more pride.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because it is, you know, that that thing. that kind of is underlying.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I don’t want people to think that I’m not that

Justin:

at the level, yeah.

Mark:

You follow me?

Justin:

Yeah, yeah.

Mark:

And I think that can also that pride can also keep me from trying something new. because, you know, or or I I or laughing at myself. But here again, not going too far, because I think we can just laugh at everything and then it doesn’t seem like to other people that we are really even trying.

Justin:

Well, i it probably you would probably agree. It probably doesn’t matter what other people think, but a lot of times it is an indicator that you’re not really willing. It’s a kinda the opposite version of I don’t wanna start ’cause it’s uh it’s kinda like I don’t wanna try.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I’m just gonna laugh at laugh through it and you get what you get. Ha ha ha. And it’s like, well, you could try. Uh eek so that kind of thing.

Mark:

And I think there is that part of us that might even be able to that person that might laugh at themselves We might even be able to be judgmental and say that they’re not even trying. Right. When they may be trying to the degree that they can.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But they’re just not taking it as seriously as we would like them to. I’m thinking back more to the sports analogy. You know?

Justin:

Yep Megan’s really good about that. At not taking herself too seriously.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And uh

Mark:

how do you notice

Justin:

sometimes sometimes she gets that from me like Why aren’t you trying? You know, kind of thing. You know. It’s like, oh, sorry. Yeah. And then when Kelly gets there, the two of them in, it’s like They get laughing at themselves a lot.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

To the point where it’s like, all right. But they do try. It’s just like Because I th I do think that is a common m defense mechanism to trying or whatever, but that that’s not always the case. I think that’s a healthy way to be.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Yeah. I I would think so. Yeah. Granted, you know, i they’re again on that continuum of how often and

Justin:

and just so we’re clear, like Megan’s got it right in the terms of like Frisbee where She’ll laugh at herself. She’ll have a good time and sometimes like you described like well not sometimes a lot of times. I’m I’m intense, right? So it’s like Um when we leave it’s I’m kinda back into my chill zone, but like while we’re playing it’s intense. It’s like you wanna win and Um I’d I’d much rather be like her and I I continue to try try try to be like her, but it’s it’s hard, you know?

Mark:

Yeah. Um

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And it and it it it brings to mind the even the personality dynamics. You know, that are involved with that process. You know, I’m sure, you know, as I was looking up assessments, you know. personality, you know, parts came into mind, you know, and the whole um what’s the uh egg egg not What’s the Enneagram? There you go. Yeah, the whole Enneagram. You know, it’s like I could have taken, you know, an Enneagram test five times, you know, in that process of kind of looking for an assessment. Yeah. Yeah. It was just interesting to think about how that comes into play. But you were you a three?

Justin:

Uh four one. Four-one, okay wait no, three one, sorry.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Three is the like achiever type thing.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And one’s perfectionist, right? Yeah. Yeah. So

Justin:

good mix.

Mark:

But yeah. And I think there again, I think that becomes a part of personality because the perfectionist has a difficult time making mistakes.

Justin:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Mark:

They’re gonna take things a little more seriously because of that desire to

Justin:

What about you? What was your

Mark:

I’m a three also.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

I’m a three also. I I really appreciate the uh the help you gave me in redefining what that three was. Yeah, because it what was it? Some call it a performer.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

You know, which seemed like uh, you know, you’re just looking to perform, but it is a matter of, you know, kind of uh achieving in a sense of accomplishing.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

But yeah, maybe even at times being able to laugh at yourself, the fact that you’re able to accomplish learning.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Even in the midst of mistakes.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. I I think the 3 1 combo I I never really thought about it, but that does make sense why it is hard for me to laugh at myself and uh also why I would say You know, I do feel like it was such a good achievement to kind of learn to be okay with messing up.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Uh and it’s still not easy for me. It’s a it’s if I you know But, you know, you bring up personalities and um like whatever Megan’s personality is is I would say probably more geared towards being able to not be so serious.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And you know, I think sometimes we go, well, that’s her category, and I’m this category, so that’s what it is. But like this thing, like taking yourself too seriously. Mm-hmm. Being able to laugh at yourself. It doesn’t matter your personality. This is something to work at, to, to, to try and get better at. So wherever you are on that scale or that continuum, whatever your personality says you are. Yep. Doesn’t mean you can’t go from where you are

Mark:

to

Justin:

to a better place in that

Mark:

and being and being able to recognize there’s gonna be circumstances that I can work on individually as well.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

To be able to say, okay, yeah, I may not I may not just take up piano for the sake of learning something new, but I can recognize when I am driving from point A to point B, I can leave just a little earlier And I can leave myself some time to be able to say, hey, yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I don’t I don’t have to, you know, be that aggressive.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, in the in the process of daily life.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. So you can take this and apply it. Yeah. Like a band aid to a specific area and see if it peels up a little bit.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I and I would think about it in that context of and as you know, from around of am I able to laugh at myself to a certain degree, or when do I notice that I take myself maybe a little too seriously?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

‘Cause I would say we all have that in different ways and for most of us one of those areas might be driving.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I yeah. That’s probably one of the more universal connections.

Mark:

Sure. Yeah. So that’s how I see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C L I C K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.