0:00
[Music] good morning Justin good morning Mar how

0:07
are you my friend I'm well yeah did you did you get off I am I'm off my Soap Box

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my my pre podcast soap box but you know we got to come up with

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a topic you know somehow that's right sometime sometimes it's just a I got another soap box for you to step oh I'm

0:26
good I'm that's good now that I'm down I can step up another as necessary all right good that's how we roll yes we

0:34
like our soap [Music]

0:41
boxes welcome to how I see it with me Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is

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a podcast that works to countercultural polarization through

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thoughtful conversations

1:00
all right today soap boox topic um part partly I wanted to discuss social media

1:07
sure um kind of the ins and outs Goods the bads um I do think um I think I'd

1:14
like to get your perspective on it as someone who is sort of antisocial media

1:20
I don't know would you say that what makes you say that I would be anti social media what I don't know is if

1:26
you're anti or just h not present or you know kind of uninterested so that's that

1:34
would be one question and I would even dare say ignorant or ignorant sure yeah

1:39
that's fine too yeah yep um because I and I think I if you're asking my

1:46
opinion on what what I think about social media use your soap box if you have

1:52
to let me pull it up for you I'm getting older so like you say sometimes it takes me a while to warm up to get up on my

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soap box I can't jump up there like I used to I know you just jumped off one so I think you can jump back on that's

2:04
fair enough I think social social media is of

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the devil

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sorry I think like most things it can be

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a blessing and a curse yeah I think there's that aspect to where people can

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reach out I think it's a you know to be able to connect with to stay you know

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and and granted we can argue is it really connection or is it just an aspect

2:38
of you know false interaction because I'm only sending you

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or you only see the good stuff I'm writing that down for the uh something to continue talking about but

2:50
keep going yeah uh you so I put out I put out there everything that's good and

2:56
therefore it's not really authentic that would be my thing to where for me

3:02
personally I would sooner have a face-to-face interaction with a with five good

3:08
friends in the process of a week then be connected air quotes to 200 people and

3:17
you know only seeing partial glimpses that's that's how I would see that and

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yet I think it's a tremendous marketing tool I think it's a you know it's a it's

3:29
a great way to be able to uh well convey

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information maybe not always full truth and I and I think you know the factors

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of um what do you call it where you know not clickbait but where you get the

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stuff that you click on and I get the stuff that I click on and you know it's

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it's basically geared towards you getting the information confirmation

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bias yeah you know information silos that whole thing sure yeah yes and and

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that that that's a concern to me because it's like it's just very difficult I think in some ways to find truth and I

4:14
don't think social media is a source for that in most cases yeah so I mean that's

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just a little you don't trust your cousin Fred's opinion about all

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things there are very few I hope you don't have a cousin need it there are very few sources on

4:34
social media that I would take to heart and you know even especially my quote

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unquote cousin Fred is that what it was yeah not uncle but cousin cousin yeah I would also recognize that

4:48
he is probably you know speaking from

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his you know click bite inform sound bite information as well yeah you know

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and it just isn't enough I think I think basically social media is a great way to

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affirm things or have do announcements for things that I want to draw attention

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to you know I think of I think of people you know that that do it well it's like

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yeah they're celebrating things birthdays you know that kind of thing and you know hey and this is coming up

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you're welcome to join us type stuff you know kind of that announcement type Dynamic meaning you you can appreciate

5:32
that use of social media is that what you're saying of just curious yeah and you know and in some cases I think you

5:39
know it does that kind of thing it replaces a a newspaper you know upcoming events M

5:48
type thing yeah going a social newspaper sure exactly so yeah that's

5:54
kind of my take on it okay and yours um well I have

6:00
[Music] I have lots of thoughts on it I mean I I

6:05
spent I'm a millennial at least on the the kind of the end of Millennials I am

6:10
not and uh yeah so I grew up on the internet I grew up on AOL instant messenger and and all those kinds of

6:17
things in Myspace and then you know moving into Facebook and Twitter and all

6:23
those things and for um you know quite a while Twitter was my favorite place I loved Twitter I loved keeping up with it

6:30
um I still enjoy it but it's I don't know I've kind of put it down I think I

6:35
talked about this previously in other podcast but during the the election race where Trump was running for president it

6:43
became very difficult to stay on Twitter just because it was so angry there's so much anger both directions and I just it

6:50
wasn't what it used to be for me like all the people that I enjoyed following for the reasons I followed them

6:56
technical expertise and kind of the WordPress world all of a sudden had opinions on politics which don't get me

7:03
wrong they're entitled to their opinions it's just that I realize yeah maybe I'm not interested in everybody's opinion

7:10
about politics because that's what Twitter became was the political discourse and I just I that's not why I

7:18
was there so ended up stopping reading contributing and it's kind of been that

7:24
way ever since and I used every once in a while but um a little bit sad to me me

7:29
at the time now it's I look back and just recognize like I spent way too much time on Twitter it was kind of an

7:36
addiction I'd have to keep up with my feed you know get to the top of the feed you know what I mean in order to feel

7:41
like my day was complete I had to catch up that kind of thing um I guess maybe like a newspaper you'd get on your front

7:48
door it's like you got to read that today and I don't know you kind of make you know what I mean I do and I was

7:53
thinking about that as as a progression as you I think that's another frustration for me mhm it's almost to me

8:01
it's almost like fashion it's like um by the time I you know purchase something

8:08
new it's already out of date from a fashion standpoint and I feel very much that way about social media to where by

8:15
the time I do get on Facebook it's like things have already moved to Instagram

8:20
you know or and you know and Twitter's been around for a while but I think it's very much that way the platforms or you

8:27
know you're not ready for Tik Tok is what you're yeah you know it's like I could short of you I'm probably dating

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myself Tik tok's probably like the dumb thing exactly and that's the thing you know it's like even you know with uh

8:39
with slack you know it updates you know I got on it and it's like and then you know it's like well now we're going to

8:45
this format and it's like nah I just I just prefer to kind of let that stuff go

8:50
on you know I might check Marketplace you know for for fa from Facebook you know for a washer dryer or something

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like that yeah but that's really yeah and it's ironic I even have a

9:02
podcast I'm part of a podcast because I see those two kind of connected yeah and I think that's uh

9:10
that's the reason a big reason I put it in here just kind because of conversations we've had about social

9:16
media due to the desire to figure out how to properly promote this podcast

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right sure yeah and um there's no questioning that social media is a huge part of marketing AG this world right

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agreed and if you don't do social media I mean you're missing you're missing a

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pretty significant opportunity agreed um and so I want to go back to the thing

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you said about false interaction [Music] because well for one my question would

9:48
be and I I think I know the answer but just I want to hear you say your answer do you believe that all of those

9:54
interactions are false all of them I think

10:01
well that's a good question can I give you some for instances of course for instance of course so like

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um your your niece that you haven't you know you you sure you were with them up

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until a certain time maybe you moved away maybe this is true I don't know but

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uh and she's having a baby and then they post it on Facebook and you see that

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post and you have this warm loving feeling that says oh oh I'm so happy for

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them I want to congratulate them sure is that interaction false I would say it's not

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false I personally would be disappointed if I found out from Facebook because

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that would be a reflection on my relationship with my niece and for me personally I'm not I'm

10:52
not going to say that's how you found out but that's kind of but I'm I'm just you got a lot of pictures that you may

10:58
be not personally I think I think are a great opportunity like you say that kind

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of thing and yet you know I would for me personally I would sooner shoot my niece

11:09
a text and say hey thinking of you that kind of thing you know versus saying

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being one of 65 replies that basically said oh very nice

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you know that kind of thing it's just and so no not all

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interactions not inter all interactions are false and yet at the same time many

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interactions limit are so limited or so biased to a degree of only one aspect of

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my life to where I don't think it's real intimacy from the aspect of

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being reciprocal or having a balanced perspective that's where I

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would use the word faults yeah where it's propped up so another that I had when you just as you

12:01
were saying all that is we just discussed listening last week right mhm

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it was last week I think right yeah no that we released it today sorry I get

12:11
them all Mi it's it's all good but anyway a big you know big component of relationships is listening sure

12:19
reciprocation listening is this idea of paying attention to what you're saying without trying to interject my own

12:26
things right like that was a very quick summary of some of the things we talk about and I think for me MH seeing what

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people are putting on Facebook or whatever social media is is an opportunity to listen without

12:42
necessarily injecting my thing which don't get me wrong there's a lot of

12:48
people who go to Facebook to interject their thing I'm not I'm just making a point in terms of my way of yeah what I

12:56
don't consider false inter interaction I consider seeing what people are posting

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sure and kind of uh trying trying my best to fight Facebook's curation with

13:07
my own to say these are people I want to see these are people updates I want because I want to know be aware of

13:14
what's happening in their life um you know in a sense of something that they

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are saying this is these are things I want to share sure information gathering if you will not just information but

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yeah not I mean that's that sounds so sterile I think it's about relationship it's about listening it's for me it's

13:32
about connection yeah and not in a false way and when I see them the next time I

13:37
can like that was so cool you got to see your daughter graduate from high school and like be at that event and see her

13:44
get awarded that thing that's awesome congratulations you know to see them go

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wow you were listening right that's no different to me than um other

13:55
opportunities for listening where you can show somebody that I care about you because I'm listening sure and I can

14:01
repeat back what you said and you go wow you really listen to me you care about me and for me I think that is an aspect

14:08
of social media that can be leveraged and is a positive thing and is not false

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in any way to me it's part of a broader relationship I'd agree with that yeah so

14:21
keep going no and that's and I and I guess that's where yeah you're adding you're using it

14:28
to to add to a current relationship and I think it's in you know it's it's one

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of those things to be able to say yeah I have an ongoing personal relationship in

14:41
addition to this social Dynamic you know that and I guess that's where I come from it's like if I if I haven't talked

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with you in 20 years and I'm just following you on Facebook to me that

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seems a little more false to actually mhm that that that would be that kind of

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dynamic and I and so I appreciate the question CU I don't want it to seem

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like it is disingenuous in a the person's desire to

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connect as you convey I just recognize that in some ways it is

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partial no that's good yeah but I I appreciate the way you're defining it in such a way that says yes it's an

15:29
opportunity for me to be aware to listen in some ways to other people in addition

15:37
to what I have from a face-to-face interaction as

15:43
well yeah yeah I like that I think you know a big part of this too is

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understanding that social media relationships are partial ones like you said sure CU I do

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think there are many many people who put too much stock in the the way that

16:00
relationship is because of social social media sure um which is you know like I

16:07
think putting yeah uh well it will let you down right I I think that's a truth um

16:16
the other thing okay so another thing I was thinking about is again I get the sense from you

16:22
that if it if you don't have a prior relationship then any relationship in social media is false M and here's my

16:31
here's my uh examples for that okay uh

16:37
again going back to Twitter so I began um following a bunch of people in the WordPress community on Twitter so

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WordPress is a software open source software that anyone can contribute to anyone can use sure and there's kind of

16:51
a passionate following around it um okay and it's it was pretty small I don't

16:56
know pretty small is probably not quite accurate but it was fairly Unknown by

17:02
the normal person uh when I started following that community and started

17:07
getting involved and now it's WordPress powers like 50% of the internet so I

17:13
mean it is it's a big deal it's it's everywhere sure um uh but the point is I started kind of

17:19
following that Trend and then seeing the influencers as the word we use now it wasn't a word then but basically people

17:26
in that Community who kind of had some influence in terms of WordPress either they were really good at building things

17:33
with it sure and I wanted to be good at building things with it so I kind of follow them and see how what their

17:38
thoughts were how they they would share things like here's a cool thing I learned today and I'm like wow that's a

17:44
cool thing I learned today now you know I me or they would share things like um

17:49
you know WordPress we need it to do this you know contribute here if you think you agree or whatever you know what I

17:56
mean and so starting to get involved in that community and it was it's a genuine

18:01
community and so I started to get involved in that and started to build relationships I'd respond to some things

18:07
on Twitter or whatever and then I and then go to their blog post and maybe leave a comment and vice versa like we

18:13
started build these interactions right right I don't know if you'd call it a relationship yet but it certainly the

18:20
beginnings of it and then as time went on I I've been to many WordPress events

18:25
called word camps sure and um it's basically a nerd Camp right I was I was

18:31
just thinking that it's a bunch of kids at summer camp playing it's the it guys summer camp

18:38
exactly rather like no offense to it guys yes that's right it guys Ru the

18:46
world no doubt no doubt just missing um no but anyway so

18:53
starting to go to these events and then these people I've been interacting with you know for a period of time now I get

18:58
to see them face to face sure and so now you're connecting and you're going wow you're that person it's nice to meet you

19:05
and yet it's like but we kind of met CU we've been talking or whatever and um so

19:11
I say all that to say it can go the other direction in the sense that a real relationship can bloom out of a social

19:18
media built relationship we need another word for real w real relationship I I

19:24
would call that face to face you know what cuz I'm not saying the relationship that you that you had

19:33
isn't real in the context of That's What I Hear mark it hurts my

19:40
feelings I do not mean to hurt your feelings and that's where I would come back to It's not that it's not

19:48
real and yet I would say from my perspective there's just so much more to

19:54
who a person is and I don't think that can always be conveyed and and you know

20:00
this is may be another time for another but you know in our uh you know I'll call it electronic

20:08
dating world we know in some cases you know that electronic relationships or

20:16
social Med are not as real I for lack of authentic as

20:25
face-to-face relationships let's use the word whole I like the word whole it's not a whole

20:31
relationship yes yes because there's I think I I really like what you're saying

20:36
which is you can you can mine pretty deeply in a few facets of a relationship

20:42
through social media but to be able to say you have a whole relationship with that person is pretty incorrect although

20:49
I would again I would argue you can build a whole relationship from one started in social media that's what I'm

20:56
saying and I guess that would that that's what we're in agreement it's it's it's started I would say it's very

21:02
difficult to have a whole relationship if it's based on social media

21:08
interaction alone MH that's yeah I think that's actually a very

21:16
wise cautionary type thing to say in a sense of if you are putting all your eggs in

21:24
the social media Basket in the relationships there yes and really you're like no me and this person on the

21:31
other side of the world we're like this we're tight we we know each other just a a caution to say there's only so much

21:37
you can know and I mean just think about I mean spouses cheat on each other all

21:43
the time sure and you you don't see it right no I yeah and these are like

21:48
inperson relationships just imagine a relationship where you don't actually see the person yeah hardly ever yeah and

21:55
U to kind of add to what you're saying in terms of that whole relationship I think that's what started to happen with

22:03
the election processes like sure I had a pretty good idea who a lot of these

22:08
people were but when that came out I was like oh but you're also that right and

22:14
by that it's kind of that polarizing U you know viewpoint but it's like you're willing to say that in that

22:21
manner with that much anger okay now I know more about you and I'm not sure I'm interested in hearing more of what you

22:27
have to say about that sure and yet that's now the thing that you're primarily focused on saying yep and I

22:34
was like you know I really enjoyed this person's this relationship with this person the the half relationship I had

22:42
the full you know as it fleshes out more fully I'm like you know I don't know if this person and I would get along in a

22:50
whole relationship on a longterm period exactly although I would also make the

22:56
argument that when we have these conversations like we've talked about that's the whole point of this podcast

23:02
right is having conversations to bridge the gap between polarized viewpoints it's possible that relationship could

23:07
have been better in person because we're able to have those conversations well and I think in in the

23:14
adverse you know we have terminology when you were talking you know catfish comes to mind you know as far as you

23:20
know how considering the ability to reach out to so many people if I want to

23:29
inauthentic I can appeal to people a broad spectrum of people that I wouldn't

23:34
have been able to do or very specific yes yeah yes to where you know I and I

23:41
think so you know that that that's very good that's another aspect of social media that isn't always so great you

23:49
know what I mean and I'm not saying you know and because I mean those are ter

23:54
that's terminology that I've only recently learned about myself you can you define that catfishing as you

24:02
understand as I understand it it would be you know an appeal

24:07
to get to know someone under an assumed identity and that I would my reason for

24:14
getting to know them would be to create a connection in such a way that I would

24:22
ask you for something and earn your trust to build your trust to where you might give me what I'm asking

24:32
sending you build story basally on an assumed identity to have people give you

24:40
what you desire yeah and there are even more nefarious things like as him to come meet you and whatever yeah right

24:47
there's a a semi documentary slash kind of fun uh not fun uh entertaining type

24:55
exactly Show on Netflix called the Tinder swi oh okay well I was thinking of the original show that was catfish oh I

25:03
don't I think there was an original like it was It was kind of that comedy type thing where you know they're tricking

25:09
people but now you know it's been I think that's been adopted you know well the reason I bring

25:15
that up is Tinder swindler often when we think of catfishing we think of teenagers at least that's that's the

25:22
that's the perspective I've heard it in the most is basically grooming it's this idea that you're grooming this young you

25:29
know female teenager to say like I really love you and you pretended to be a slightly older teenage boy and you

25:36
know you and I are the only ones to think like this and like you're grooming them right building their trust that

25:42
whole thing and we we but we I mean me think catfishing is kind of that version

25:49
uh the tnder Tinder swindler was about this guy who basic that's crazy he

25:55
basically had this Ponzi scheme where he would contact you know a good-looking woman on social media and he would prop

26:03
up this version of himself that looked very rich prince type thing whatever and

26:09
you know he had the money like he would say you know I'm going to fly in the Prague tonight if you're willing to meet

26:16
me I know it's short no whatever um I'd love to take you to this restaurant it's this insanely expensive restaurant

26:22
whatever and so all of this is social media so far right and then then they

26:27
would meet person and he would bring the goods like he would pay for dinner he would be sweet he whatever and then the

26:33
next day you know he'd say oh man I had this thing come up my father you know

26:39
he's in trouble I need to get back to him but I'll you know I'll I'll be in touch and so he he would fly out of

26:45
there whatever and they just they just felt like treated like a princess right

26:51
um and then a few he would do a couple of those with them and then he would say oh no I'm in big trouble uh the

26:58
government is they're trying to do a coup with my father or whatever and all of our funds are locked down all I need

27:05
is you know $110,000 and tomorrow I will pay you double that I will get it back to you we just have to and they would

27:13
send them the money and then sometimes he would pay him double and sometimes you know whatever but he would use that

27:19
money to pay for the next one oh wow yeah right and so he had like three four going on at a time wow it was insane

27:27
like I'm just is watching this going this is a real thing this isn't fictional like it's really happened and

27:33
these women are truly financially devastated because of this guy and that's the thing when you were saying

27:38
teenagers it's like yeah years ago these people were teenagers now they're your age now they're my age and that's why I

27:45
wanted to bring up that show is because just I guess adding to your point which

27:52
is uh you can still be catfished and be 52 or 7 I mean even more like if you're

27:59
82 yeah I was like oh this poor boy you know that kind of thing and and that's

28:05
uh it's just very important to know that no doubt I think I think that kind of ties into what you're saying about

28:11
relationship yes I think like anything you know money yeah for example can be a

28:18
great tool and used in the correct way and it can also be a root of evil if you

28:25
will you know that kind of thing and I and I think social media has that same

28:31
very same potential yeah it can be used for building up and it can be used for tearing

28:36
down yeah and it I mean there are several aspects that you hit on of

28:42
negative aspects to it right that's probably one area that I am more negative than that's okay I mean that's

28:49
why we're talking right this is the this is something we're actually semi- pooled

28:54
right so we have a conversation about more so yeah I think we uh as we get

29:01
older or as we uh corroborate on this podcast we become more centralized I

29:06
think that's been part of our journey to where well I think our relationship has become more

29:11
whole because I see where you're coming from and I can be influenced by that

29:17
even in a reluctant manner sure you know and and at some points it's like you

29:23
know that's probably not where I'm going you know that kind of thing or or I'm kind of like that that puppy on a leash

29:30
that doesn't want to walk you know it's like all four feet you know just planted forly and if I'm going to move you're

29:37
going to have to do some uh you know you're going to have to drag me to a certain degree but you know I I can come

29:42
along but yeah that's why I don't see Mark's Twitter account promoting this podcast that's right that's right that

29:49
puppy with all four legs so if you know if if there comes a day when I get a Twitter account you know it's because

29:55
Justin has finally convinced me that I should get one to uh or I've started one

30:00
under your name yes yes that's more likely at trust me

30:10
exactly oh man okay but another uh but coming back yeah another one you mentioned was information silos and kind

30:17
of or confirmation bias is what you confirmation is what I said information Silo that's that's my term yes

30:23
essentially the reason I bring up information silos is because there is

30:29
actual algorith algorithmic proof that that is a thing thank you I think I

30:35
worked through that word yes um where essentially they build algorithms to make sure you

30:42
stay fat and happy in your Silo right like oh yeah this person agrees with me

30:48
this person agrees with me and you get more and more happy with this place is great right which adds to the

30:54
polarization right but you know and they're just from a business perspective social media business their their their

31:03
money is an engagement right you being on their platform and because when you're on that platform they can show

31:10
you ads and when they show you ads they get paid right so the more they can keep you engaged on that PL platform MH the

31:17
more they can get paid this goes for news as well sure right news channels CNN Fox News Right the longer you're

31:25
staring at the screen the more commercials you see y if you go to New York Times or you know Washington Post

31:33
website right the longer you there the more they're getting paid by their advertisers and some of them have

31:38
different models New York Times I appreciate that they have a subscription model as well so they're not completely

31:45
subsidized by your eyeballs looking at that ad sure but the point is that's how

31:51
most things on the internet work if it's free to you they're getting paid somehow

31:56
or they wouldn't exist right and so it's so important to understand that as a consumer of social

32:03
media that how how does this company get paid and how am I kind of playing into

32:09
that system now again I don't think social media is terrible and shouldn't be something we leverage I think it is a

32:15
powerful tool but I think it's so important to understand how it works and

32:20
so what they want is they want you to be engaged the way you're engaged is saying yeah that's right this is how this works

32:27
or whatever or getting angry and so either direction keeps you engaged right sure U and so they're going to feed you

32:34
information based on what they know you like based on what they know you agree with based on the friends that you have

32:40
or whatever they're going to give you hey you should check out this group or you should you know or they'll they'll

32:45
share a post right um sure that's not any of your friends it's just an ad or something else and it might be an ad for

32:52
something you're like yeah I agree with that thing and you might follow that thing right they're helping you you

32:58
build this so Silo of information sure and this Silo is filled of all the

33:03
things nice that you like right nice little structure You're Building of

33:08
Information that supports everything you agree with uh laughs at everything you disagree with right and you don't have

33:16
to be active for that to happen sure they're designing the system to do that

33:21
in fact you have to be active to try and break through that Silo and most people number one don't

33:29
you know ignorance and again if we reiterate what ignorance is from previous episodes it's not about being

33:34
stupid it's about not knowing that a thing is happening being aware being aware yeah so I think ignorance just

33:41
allows that Silo to be built for free sure right uh and then on top of it just

33:47
our innate desire to like be agreed with or have you know kind of feel confirmed

33:53
and uh confirmation bias right that what you said so all that to say I think it's so

33:59
important to keep that perspective in mind when you go there and you say this person agrees with me or this I'm I feel

34:06
like I'm right but you know what I'm also being fed all the things that agree with me and hardly any of the things

34:12
that disagree when I hear the things that disagree it's from a someone laughing at it right or like you know

34:18
what I'm saying um it's like if you watch Fox News anything you hear about

34:24
any kind of liberal agenda is going to be shared paed to you in derision I got

34:29
you sure right for the most part it's not neutrally published and you go to CNN

34:37
same thing right yeah it's going to be it's not going to be neutrally shared with you as news it's going to have a

34:43
spin about how it is uh and I think it's just again important to understand that that's just how it works M and the truth

34:51
is not what you're hearing like that's not the summary that's not truth as a

34:56
whole you're missing pieces and you're you're stuck in a silo and you think

35:01
that you're becoming more and more and more and more right but really you're just becoming more and more entrenched in what you believe which may not be

35:07
right sure your thoughts which which can lead to what I would call judgmentalism or you know the ability to be you know a

35:14
desire to be judgmental well the more right you think you are MH the more you

35:19
look at people who aren't doing the thing that you think is right and think how stupid can you be yeah look at all

35:26
this proof and I'm curious do you not see my Silo Mark I do I do I don't see

35:32
your Silo but what intrigued me about what you were sharing is how to break

35:38
out of your Silo is that is that what I heard yeah because I'm thinking about it is it breaking out of a silo or is it

35:46
just creating a bigger Silo to where I have more information or my information

35:54
is more broad than biased and I'd be curious to know from

36:01
your perspective how how an individual could break out of their Silo as you put it

36:09
well I think this ties into a lot of our conversations right um because it's

36:14
that's what this podcast is about it's about you're in a polarized Silo let's

36:19
break out of it by having a conversation that kind of covers both sides a little bit and says there is room for both

36:25
there's a spectrum here got you and I think that's part of it is you know starting to embrace the idea that

36:33
there's a spectrum about this issue and I I'm on this side of the spectrum but

36:38
there's other people on the other side of the spectrum and they're not idiots sure they have lots in they have their

36:44
own Silo that makes them think I'm an idiot but come on we're not both idiots

36:50
right look at the other parts of our life and recognize that no we're not idiots we're people who are fully

36:56
functioning smart smart people we just don't agree on this thing and we have all this you know these silos we built

37:02
up on both sides that make it very difficult for us to understand the other

37:08
one sure but I think you're right in terms of building or in I guess like you

37:13
said increasing the size of our Silo the width of it right requires those

37:18
conversations requires the um allowing and embracing of information coming at

37:25
you that isn't your normal silo yeah does that make sense yeah it makes perfect sense you don't have to believe

37:31
it to hear it but you can at least listen how someone do that on a

37:36
practical basis in other words am I just going to click is am i g instead of clicking the Fox News Feed do I click

37:44
the CNN Newsfeed sometimes you know that's that's kind of I would love your thoughts on that well that's that's I

37:51
mean the whole information Silo stuff is a little new to me I'll be honest with you in that thinking and and I guess

37:57
that's where I'm that's where I'm coming from is what do if you were to ask me what do I do I basically distance from

38:05
social media Al together because it's frustrating to me I I'm not a person who likes ads and I want to be I'm I'm like

38:13
the old the old version of what a male shopping is I go on to get what I want

38:19
to do and I hop off yeah you know that's kind of that's kind of how I am I go to you know Amazon if I'm looking for a

38:26
mower belt or a part for that and I'll go to Facebook if I'm looking for a used appliance on

38:32
Marketplace and you know that's that's and you ask my family that's pretty much

38:38
the extent yeah I mean I've had eras where I've tried to be

38:45
involved but it's like for me in Facebook that kind of thing and granted I know technology has evolved to other

38:52
you know it is all of the ads and stuff that I don't want to see and I realize I'm on a free you know interaction type

39:01
stuff so that's how people get paid but it's like I don't I don't and I'm just

39:07
being fair I don't even watch TV yeah for that same thing because I yeah I mean yeah we'll stream some shows being

39:13
perfectly honest but you're zeroing in on the social media aspect but really you you asked the bigger question right

39:19
which is how you out of your Silo and well at this point this is a bigger

39:24
question than just social media sure right I suppose yeah so then you have you know ideas in terms of besides

39:32
social media because I think well I was curious part of your argument if knowing you as a person would be well get out of

39:39
social media and meet some people right like I think that's probably more my Dynamic yes I'm not and I hear again I

39:46
don't want to be judgmental but that's how it works for me yeah in that process

39:52
and I and I would caution here's here's the other part of it

39:57
I see you know and it's part of my job I see what too much social media

40:05
interaction does to people from a comparison Dynamic you know part of your

40:10
counseling yes part of my counseling is you know this whole comparison you know trying to keep up with the Joneses type

40:17
thing and that I think that's what confirms that you know yes if I'm only seeing what their vacation in Tahiti or

40:25
when they went to the keys or or you know that kind of thing it's like crying out loud my life stinks in comparison

40:33
when in reality that's not the whole story so I think you know that kind of

40:39
plays into my view of social media and I think you know that's why I would

40:45
encourage people to say okay how do you break out whether that's disconnecting

40:51
as you you you know did at election time you know there's just for you there was just too much anger there so it's like I

40:59
don't want all that anger oozing into my life via the screen and then back out

41:05
back onto the screen or back onto the screen intera into somebody else's life where I'm like here's why you should

41:11
whatever and it's like turns out people don't agree with me and it just and it just isolates you from them yep in that

41:20
in that one facet yep of Elections and campaigning Y and you know and and I'll

41:27
be honest for me you know that that another part of it is that whole marketing thing it just I

41:34
just I don't have uh I don't want to say I don't have time but that's that's my

41:39
perspective that's what I think it's like I don't want to waste my time basically with all of this ad

41:47
information yeah whether it's TV whether it's radio I think that's what I think

41:53
in some ways that's what makes podcast streaming that kind of thing so

42:00
appealing to people is because they just they can get the information they want to get in a fairly concise manner

42:06
without all the ads yeah yeah and go ahead no that's it that's that's good

42:14
because it's and and granted you know here again between us you know in this

42:19
in this format you know that's where when I think of you know podcasts that have grown and I'm hearing ads every

42:26
this brought to you that that frustrates me just just a little bit Yeah because

42:31
in your mind it's like it undermines their um the the trust it undermines

42:38
well it undermines the trust but ultimately I'm just there for what I want to hear gotcha and if I'm I'm if

42:47
I'm being honest there's a part of it that's just instant gratification gotta I don't want to waste my

42:54
time I I I I'm here because I want to listen to that person and what they're sharing and what the title of that

43:00
podcast was that's what I want but I also have to recognize in a free

43:06
exchange there is going to likely be some ads right and that's where I I tend

43:12
to become a little more reactive would be the way I would describe

43:17
that I think back to the thing about silos though or how to get out or

43:24
increase um I mean I I definitely agree essentially Your solution is I avoid

43:32
those places person um you know social media and news TV

43:38
whatever um which is something I'm not necessarily proud of in the fact of

43:44
avoiding news I have to you know because I because you feel like maybe you're uh

43:50
go ahead sorry yeah because I I'm not saying I'm a well-rounded

43:57
person in the aspects of you know politics and government and you know

44:04
what current current event type stuff yeah based on it's like so you've

44:11
accepted the trade-off essentially where um you're less informed of the things

44:16
that you potentially want to care about want to be informed about not wholly

44:22
accepted I wrestle with it gotcha I haven't completely accepted it but I

44:27
recognize there is a tradeoff I gotta yeah this you know goes back to the

44:34
politics episode we talked about and kind of I think that ties into your desire to have an understanding in a say

44:42
in that those kind of discourses right political discourse um I've accepted it

44:49
so I'm not I'm I'm kind of the other Camp although I'm certainly willing to be grow continue growing and be

44:55
challenged maybe when I'm like you mark I'll feel challenged instead of

45:01
accepting it but U yeah I don't watch the news I avoid it at all costs I part

45:07
of it is um it's boring to me part of it

45:13
is it's just so I guess I've never been somewhere to watch the news my parents

45:19
didn't watch the news so it it's not wasn't culturally ingrained in me to do it and when I watch it that you know

45:25
they have a there's a specific tone of voice they have news anchors and that bugs the crap out of me speaking of

45:31
transparency to me that just represents phoniness because it's like this isn't

45:36
really you talking this is your news version of yourself talking and now we get to hear the truth because you're

45:43
using this special tone of voice it's like I don't I don't just everything

45:48
about it doesn't appeal to me me away and and then not only you know the phony

45:54
voice but then the topics it's just they specifically very polarized topics that

46:01
kind of cause drama it's about drama right and again if you understand the

46:07
business of news MH they're the way they get their money is your eyeballs the way they get your eyeballs is through things

46:15
that keep you glued to the screen right like sure things that make you want to keep coming back like is the hurricane

46:20
coming or not it might be huge or whatever it's like I got to check in tomorrow and I got to check in every

46:26
hour because hurricane might be here in one minute right it's like no the hurricane you know it's several days out

46:33
you know whatever I'm not saying he shouldn't go to the news and figure out what it's doing or whatever but they

46:38
spec specifically gear it towards creating this need I would say addiction

46:44
towards more drama more news more whatever and they they sprinkle in a little bit of fluff right happy stuff

46:51
that makes you feel like see this is a good thing they kind of finish with that so you don't feel like I'm only

46:57
consuming this negative whatever but that's what makes you keep coming back it's not the fluff you know what I mean

47:03
and it's science like you can read about it like it it's it's proven it's not I'm

47:08
not just making this up it's interesting you say that because uh I was I I do tend to read newspapers and I'll you

47:14
know do that that's kind of my thing as far as my era if you will yeah that's

47:20
Twitter yeah that's my Twitter yeah but uh it was interesting I was reading an article how the certain aspects of you

47:29
know news media is policing other aspects because they were uh talking

47:34
about how breaking news the term terminology breaking news is no longer

47:40
authentic so it it is leading to that because you know breaking news is that draw that hook and yet it's been so

47:48
overused that now it's not even a thing anymore you well it's a thing but yet

47:55
it's more more likely a lie than it is the actuality of this has just happened

48:04
no the yeah there's very few avenues for TR breaking news anymore and and I would

48:10
say one of those would be an investigative report that been under wraps for a long period of time and now

48:15
they're bringing it out right like sure but real life events like usually you have social media posts about it way

48:22
before the news like someone's there on the ground look what just happened and they posted it goes viral and then the news sees the viral post and they go

48:29
yeah we need to talk about that right that's kind of like our podcast you know

48:34
exactly this is not breaking news folks no that's right we don't claim it is

48:39
exactly at least we got that going for um but yeah yeah sh good stuff I can't

48:45
remember I guess we were talking about silos but yeah I think but I I talked about the shift I apologize I shifted it

48:51
to the breaking news and you were talking about what it came back to as far as the source

48:57
I think yeah we the Genesis of this long Rabbit Trail was essentially how do you

49:03
increase the size of your Silo what are some techniques and you basically say well I avoid the news and I avoid social

49:08
media which I think is a viable solution if you're looking to decrease the height

49:16
of your silos so you're not so entrenched in what you believe you have all this evidence stacked by all these

49:21
social media posts and all these news articles and all these you know what I mean sure and increase the width of it

49:27
by talking to some your neighbor who is the other their their left wing your

49:32
right wing or you're left wing and they right wing and they have opinions and thoughts but they're also your neighbors so they want to be friendly and they

49:39
able to have some discourse there and be able to go you know the people who think that they're not so bad sure you know

49:46
and having those real life conversations with real people yeah um so your

49:51
information Silo stuff then that you're you're willing to recognize that's not

49:56
just social media terminology yeah um okay now I'm yeah yeah um but what I

50:03
what I what is semi unique to social media is that they have the tools to

50:08
figure you out and feed you more the algorithms right right so that's unique in the terms in versus like the news

50:17
they know their demographic pretty well obviously they they know what sells

50:22
right they know what increases but they don't know your interests they don't have all this information about you that

50:28
you're willingly dumping into their system every day right through your contributions right through what you

50:34
like through what you buy through all this stuff where social media has that information and then they can use that

50:40
information to feed you back so it's kind of regurgitating and um yeah so I we're

50:47
going to have to do this probably for another time but I as you were sharing and this isn't a I'm not as you share

50:57
your view of the news your perspective was basically that it's boring and

51:05
inauthentic yeah and I'm curious how you

51:11
see even younger Millennials or other I'm curious how you see them being

51:20
aware of what is happening cuz I do believe you know what govern governments

51:26
are doing I do believe you know what leader what decisions leaders are making

51:32
what Congress is doing What legislation you know I do believe that's an important thing from my perspective and

51:40
I'm curious if a younger version of me who tends to want to disengage from

51:48
that uh that that to me concerns me regarding government you follow me do

51:56
and and and it it's okay if it's another topic but that's what's coming to my mind in that Dynamic

52:04
of if I'm just if I'm just trusting those individuals to make this decisions

52:11
that are in my best interest and I'm obliv not oblivious complacent maybe

52:19
a combination of ignorance is bliss yeah that's that's that's

52:27
concerning to me yeah I think that's okay that I mean I think that's

52:33
acceptable I can't speak to the the big thing there I mean we could we could we

52:39
could talk about that and I think you said we might not have time for that but I can speak personally and just say that

52:44
my life's been fine without having news in my life and knowing the current

52:50
events because if A hurricane's coming I know because all my friends talk about it yeah you know what I mean yeah if you

52:57
know some political thing's happening I'll find out because Megan's client's at work she's a hair stylist she's going

53:04
to come home and say my clients wouldn't stop talking about this thing and I'm going to find out right I have never

53:10
been wanting for information about current events or or neither has any of

53:17
my credibility in any of facet of my life been undermined as a result of not

53:22
knowing what's quote unquote going on yeah politically

53:28
and I think that the concerning part is that uh as we discuss in the politics is

53:33
episode is that we're probably should have a presence in kind of the political discourse as Believers as people trying

53:41
to represent the right side right whatever which is you know obviously

53:47
very polarizing yeah exactly and I would just say yes I think somebody should be

53:53
doing that it's just not me right now yeah yeah and I think that's where I'm at is is that difference between a

54:02
proactive stance and a reactive stance because if I'm just finding out after

54:08
it's happened that from my perspective that can demonstrate a uh an

54:17
irresponsibility yeah to from my perspective I'm not saying someone my response to that would be the

54:25
way that I contri to the world mhm um like I'm very involved with Celebrate

54:32
Recovery sure and to me that is a much better

54:37
way to create change in a cultural wave

54:43
I hear you than jumping on a political so boox I believe that the changes that can the fundamental changes that can

54:50
transform a person from an addict to a someone who gives back to the community sure is fundamentally going to be a

54:58
greater win socially politically sure over time than whatever I might try to

55:06
do on a polit political Spectrum sure again this is unique and personal to me

55:11
to way the way I feel I'm meant to be contributing sure where Grassroots versus a Global Perspective exactly I

55:19
believe that I'm at the Grassroots level working on helping someone get out of addiction so that they can even

55:25
contribute in any me meaningful way to society right like that's where I want

55:30
to be and I I joke about not you know I

55:36
can't control anything that's going on whatever it's like no that's not true I believe this matters I hear you and I

55:42
believe that for my kids sake the work I'm doing is going to benefit them more

55:48
than whatever I could do because I don't think I have what it takes to be in that

55:54
other Avenue sure trying to do good work I just don't think I have uh the patience for one got

56:03
um the platform is another platform Dynamic of that it's like what platform

56:08
have I been given and do I use that to its fullest potential not use it in a

56:14
negative sense but and is that where my energy is mostly used in a way that yeah I can

56:22
have and I I appreciate you sharing that dynamic and that's not to say that you know people who are involved on a global

56:30
scale or you know a larger you know political scale that's not to say that

56:35
that isn't the platform they've been given so but yeah I'm hearing where you're coming from and I think we all

56:41
have that opportunity starting with social media as we started with social media you know

56:47
we bring it back to the relationships we have and the influence we have and yeah

56:54
being able to use all of those aspects you know for a for for a Kingdom Purpose

57:00
if you will yep and I think just last thought there we should be careful about

57:06
how we consume social media we should also be careful about how we leverage social media and treat both of them with

57:13
a full understanding of how it works and and why we're doing it in order like you said to

57:20
leverage his kingdom sure if if that's if that's where you're at right yeah um

57:26
and even leverage can be a yeah yes but that polarizing Dynamic yeah we're right

57:32
at our time time Mark so yeah we can't keep going but we would we totally would we we just we just came up with a few

57:38
more topics cool so that's how we see it thanks Justin thank

57:44
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57:51
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