Mark:

Right.

Justin:

It’s recording, Mark.

Mark:

Nice job. Appreciate you being able to push the buttons every morning and just getting us off to a good

Justin:

You’re welcome. You might need to scoot a little closer to that.

Mark:

Yeah. My feeling. What what are my sound about?

Justin:

Quieter than

Mark:

that’s better. I’m working on my mellow sound Although that might put people to sleep. So yeah. Is that better?

Justin:

It depends on if they have their quiet time kombucha in hand.

Mark:

Exactly. I did I did uh get a uh text asking me uh you know if I had any in stock. Any

Justin:

time boots

Mark:

yes.

Justin:

That’s awesome. Who asked you that

Mark:

My mother-in-law Linda. So like you say, that was uh that was just a low sense of humor between the two of us.

Justin:

That’s awesome.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

She gives us all the best comments.

Mark:

There you go. Yes indeed.

Justin:

So you guys you know g gotta step up on your commentary because Linda’s got you all beat right now.

Mark:

Yes indeed.

Justin:

Uh

Mark:

Liz Lizzie is definitely in that running as well. And so family members start.

Justin:

Those are more thoughts. Yeah. Spoiler.

Mark:

And the beauty of it is I when they come in, I can just kind of forward them to you because it’s like that’s way above my pay grade as far as the how I see a podcast is concerned.

Justin:

That’s true. Yeah. Like uh the I had the outro accidentally at the beginning and the intro at the end.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Um yeah, Megan and Lizzie both let me know that.

Mark:

There you go.

Justin:

Yeah, that was good. Yeah.

Mark:

It’s good to have that uh checks and balances. Yes, yes. Humbles us.

Justin:

You know, it’s it’s it’s easy to slip some mistakes in there. So

Mark:

Yeah. Oh I give you that.

Justin:

I’m surprised I haven’t got more typo corrections and stuff like that

Mark:

Well

Justin:

although I use a thing called Grammarly, which generally catches it.

Mark:

Yeah, that’s exactly kind of along the lines I was thinking. Day days of spell check. The biggest thing I get is, you know, the wrong word.

Justin:

Mm you know,

Mark:

in a spell check type thing.

Justin:

And grammarly will catch that. It’s kind of like spell slash grammar checker. you know, give you suggestions for better ways to put it. But

Mark:

and for me it’s normally speak to text when that happens. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, where it confuses, yeah, I hear you.

Mark:

Lizzie and Lindsay is uh is one that’s like frustrates me every time It’s like sometimes I let it loose and it’s like I hate it when I

Justin:

‘m like you’re now Lindsay, I’m sorry.

Mark:

No, she never, never Lindsay. It’s like, yeah.

Justin:

Spoiler alert, Lindsay is gonna be on the podcast soon.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Which is exciting. She’s uh doing a lot of learning about health and science, but kind of particularly engaged in brain

Mark:

neurobiology.

Justin:

Yeah, neurobiology. So we thought, hey, we wanna talk about some brain stuff.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And it would be cool to have her on.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So again, a little bit of spoiler. If you want to hear about hear from this Lizzie you’ve been hearing about, yeah. Uh she’ll be on in a few weeks.

Mark:

Welcome to How I See It With me, Mark Pratt and

Justin:

Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations. Um and today, I’m excited about today.

Mark:

Are you? You just found out about today. Well you’re still excited. I like it.

Justin:

I’ve been excited about this opportunity you have.

Mark:

Oh.

Justin:

And so I’m I’m excited about the idea of kind of broadening the audience uh for this opportunity. So

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Do you mind if I share a little bit of what you’re doing? So uh tonight

Mark:

Sunday night.

Justin:

Sunday night

Mark:

Yes, it will be May seventh.

Justin:

Okay. Sunday night, excuse me. Uh Mark will be presenting a little bit on on some stuff at a church where they’re gonna have M you know, I I guess is it.

Mark:

Not as much as I Okay. It’s gonna be a small group.

Justin:

Why don’t you tell us about it, Mark? It’s gonna be a Wednesday night and it’s gonna be a panel.

Mark:

What I understand is gonna be a parent night.

Justin:

Cool.

Mark:

Uh there’s gonna be a meal and then there’s gonna be a during that meal there’s gonna be a video presentation.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Basically about how technology you know, affects, you know, children and developmentally how that, you know just how our Social media culture is affecting the next generation and in many ways setting them up for addiction. And so, like you say, that’s that’s what the the video will be about. And then they’ll break it out into, you know, uh small group discussion from there you know, based on, you know, babies, you know, um elementary age, you know, junior high, senior high type families, you know, as far as where they’re at. And then I’ll be uh following that up, you know, small group discussions kind of following that up with, you know, where I see it going or, you know, just to be able to be a voice, to be able to speak. to what I see as a counselor, you know, working with, you know, marriages, families, kids, you know, and and what I’ve seen and that kind of thing. And then kind of um basically wrapping up with kind of a QA time as far as, you know, what parents can do and that kind of thing. So that’s that’s how even probably five to seven would be that time frame. And uh yeah, just kind of looking forward to it then uh really doing uh it’s it’s been good. Um because I I recognize, you know, in the in the day to day you can kinda do the thing and I I respect the fact that you know if you just do the same thing over and over again you know you don’t always go out and look for the new research or look for the the new thing you know I mean I I probably spend as much time, you know, with my quiet time stuff and, you know, new ideas come through that, you know, devotionals and so forth, but I’m not necessarily always going out there and looking at the latest research and that kind of thing. So it’s it’s been a good it’s been a good little opportunity for me to just kind of in invest again and look at some of this stuff. And it’s, you know, it’s been convicting as far as, you know, it definitely definitely brings back the timeless aspects of, you know, when I’m when I’m looking at a cultural dynamic I, you know, routinely think of Esther, you know, and stuff like that. You know, people in scripture, you know, for such a time as this that I d you know, I fully believe that, you know We are born when we’re born for a purpose. You know? And you know, we are given the children we are given because we are uniquely designed to raise those children. You know, none of this is by accident. None of this is a mistake, and none of this is just a biological experience that, you know, we’re just here to gratify ourselves and, you know And and die. That kind of thing. So it’s just I really have uh been thinking about it from that time, you know, from that aspect. of okay, what do we what are we called to? What do we need to be? Well, you know, how do we address some of these dynamics that, you know, are s uh some of these social dynamics as families, as as parents, as children, that kind of thing. So That’s kind of where my mind has been, you know, in the process of, you know, how our brain works, developmental stuff for kids and that kind of thing. So Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, like you say, it’s good to have an excuse sometimes to have to do some research and spend some time looking at science and all that. That’s that’s cool.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um but yeah, so like I said I wanted to have the opportunity to I I guess hear some of what you’ve been thinking about and preparing even if it’s stuff that ends up on the cutting floor, you know, like kind of the

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

The B roll stuff. Yes. Uh or uh But you know, even the stuff you want to share there. And if uh you know, as a listener you’re looking for an invite, it will be over by the time by the time this is released. So don’t ask. Yeah. Uh yeah. So yeah. How are you uh how are you getting into it? Like how because I know the video’s gonna set up a lot of the conversation for you, I think, right?

Mark:

Yeah, and I um it’s gonna set it up Um, but I think for me it’s a it my desire, what I’m feeling, you know, kind of led to to speak about is hope.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

in the midst of this culture.

Justin:

You guys have heard this from Mark before. He’s all about that hope.

Mark:

I just and I guess that’s what that’s what you know brings it back to me from a timeless because Uh this is this is part of my dynamic is I believe, you know, there’s the aspects of what is timely and what is timeless.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And for me that I wouldn’t necessarily put them on the, you know, continuum dynamic. Um because I

Justin:

can be both.

Mark:

Yeah, I can see it it’s that aspect of being aware of both at the same time.

Justin:

Gotcha.

Mark:

You know, yeah. And and so recognizing our culture is recognizing the effects and what is currently going on in our culture. is a timely dynamic. And when I look at it ‘s it’s just strange that I’m even speaking about technology. So I that that to you is a credit, Justin, because like you say, um I wouldn’t have Found myself here years ago. Or I wouldn’t have thought I would, let’s put it that way. But I think in our culture, okay, technology is here. So that’s part of the timely dynamic. And I think, you know, as parents and I I honestly, and and granted, I’m I’m probably speaking to grandparents. I know I’m speaking to some grandparents, you know, but at the same time, I realize that may not be you know, uh much of our listenership, grandparents actually who are raising their grandchildren.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I think that’s a that’s a dynamic of our culture. that is that is newer.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I don’t necessarily see that from a historical. I mean, granted, not that it didn’t happen, but I don’t think it’s it’s happened previously. You know, maybe in a in a in a war dynamic world or two, you know, where granted, children lost their parents you know, and therefore other family members came, but I don’t think we’ve seen what we see today on such a large scale. Mm-hmm And so, you know, I I think about it in the context of the energy that we have to be parents. And I think there’s a lot of energy involved to be able to raise children.

Justin:

Yeah, for sure.

Mark:

And so that, you know, from a cultural time timely dynamic, you know, I feel for, you know, parents And then I feel for grandparents who are raising young children. I you know. Yeah. So I think that’s a that’s an aspect of the timely. But there’s so much of the, you know, our social media dynamic that is uh the I just found out a new term is uh is is IGEN. You know, it’s a the it’s the group of kids who have been basically born, I believe it’s since nineteen ninety-five So basically a generation well from that point we have a group of people who have been raised with smart technology. So like the iPhone, you know, the I gener generation I generate generation I So or Igen. There’s books and so forth out. But you get the idea. And, you know, this is this is this is new information.

Justin:

Much like the millennial or uh what’s right before millennials? You Yeah. Probably. What’s what’s X? Is that right?

Mark:

Yeah, something like that.

Justin:

So I think Generation X or and or millennials. So I think millennials were raised on computers, which was a new paradigm, right? Yeah. And Generation X the the number of people you know, kids who had access to computers was much lower. You had the Steve Jobs type people or whatever. And, you know, that that they’re outliers because they had rare access to computers. Whereas my generation is like we were It’s kind of that same shift, right? Like we were raised on computers and had to learn that world. And now, yeah, like you said, IGIN, I guess, you know, raised on smart. Smartphones.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s cool.

Mark:

And you know it does. And it’s so, you know, and I think that’s where in this, you know, in the timely part of it, you know I guess to put it politely, you know, there has been a m misleading of what this technology is and what it can do, you know, to the developing mind.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And you, you know, you bring up Steve Jobs and, you know, there’s there’s, you know, other people, you know, in the tech industry. And the reality of it is, truth be told, uh, Steve Jobs never allowed his kids on a screen.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, so when you think about these people that are engineering this stuff or, you know, these these and there’s, you know, there’s education systems in Silicon Valley where, you know the execs send their kids to school that have no screen.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me? And they recognized the power that the screen had to create this, you know, dopamine biofeedback loop. that creates this addiction.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

You know, for the screen.

Justin:

Yep. And they have firsthand, you know, view to the the algorithms that are created and the science behind it and

Mark:

sure.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, that there’s basically, you know, engineers. Yes, there’s engineers and rooms designing this stuff. to make it as addictive as possible to keep you on to be able to give them as much information as they can get about you to make it as specific to you to keep you in that loop as long as they can.

Justin:

You know what’s a little bit sad about that? Oh yeah, yeah. Okay, a lot of it. No, I’m just thinking about okay, so how big is Facebook, Google, Twitter, you know, how big is

Mark:

Fifty million dollars alone goes to um lobbying.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

Yeah. Sorry, I didn’t mean to cut you off, but you know, from my perspective, that is an aspect of Okay, why aren’t w with this information, why isn’t more being done as far as saying, well, hang on, if it’s not good for their children, why Is it so prevalent and why are we not curbing this? You know, and granted there’s, you know, even even uh And granted, the version of TikTok is different, but you know, China is actually creating limitations around their children. exp their children’s exposure to tick tock.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

And yet, you know, we’re talking hours, you know, that young children are spending, you know, YouTube, TikTok, that kind of thing, you know, Facebook, you know, and and and I’m Go ahead. Sorry. Well I was what I was trying to get at

Justin:

is the amount of money that is spent on science by these organizations. We don’t have any idea. No. What’s sad to me is there’s so much social science that is lock you know, hit behind these locked walls. Sure. In order to build these corporations that they know a lot about social science that’s not published, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Where a lot of these engineers and scientists you know w if outside of those locked walls would be producing pretty an amazing stuff.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

They are, but it’s all behind like w lock walls and

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Obviously we’re learning and scientists are studying from the outside of these walls, these these impacts and all this stuff. But the a lot of the stuff that I would say we’re finding out and be is being published is stuff they already knew. That’s why they built it that way. They the the algorithms and all that, like came from that study and then they validated those studies and then they continued to hone those those technologies in order to to do those things and we’re out here monitoring It and going, Oh, we see a pattern here and you’re like, Yep, so that’s because it’s working. We’ve been it’s designed that way.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

I just think it would be amazing too if we if that information, that science was able to be published and available. You know what I mean? But sadly that won’t that won’t be the case.

Mark:

In some ways it is the case because what we know about that process has been leaked by executives who are leaving that industry being able to say, No, I don’t want to be a part of this anymore. You know, and those are in different, you know, Facebook, you know, there’s just different people, executives who are leaving basically saying, No, I don’t want to be part of this promotion anymore. I don’t want to be part of this I’ll call it an agenda if you will. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think, you know, that’s really kind of bringing some of this information to the forefront. And, you know, not that this hasn’t been, you know, going on for a while, but I just think about it. And so that’s that’s the timely. dynamic, you know, and I’m and I’m thinking about it in the context of that aspect of timeless as well. To be able to recognize that the timely is about, you know, information. So when you click on that site, you are basically um You’re a consumer. Well, you’re part of the product really, you know, that is being utilized to get information to be able to market to you more effectively.

Justin:

And when when you hear that term you’re the product, yeah not the consumer. Mm-hmm. What they mean is they are selling you. Right? Yes. That’s what they I I I think sometimes we get lost in what that means, but it means they’re selling you and you’re in for you know the Like your your a package to be given to something to someone who like figuring that out of matters, right? That kind of thing.

Mark:

To be able to market to you more specific. based on the information we have on the you know the searches you do.

Justin:

Yep. Yeah. Yep.

Mark:

So like you say, all that information is out there. And yet I’m willing to recognize from my perspective, you know, I would dare say each generation to a certain degree has had its addictions. Okay, you know, we think of, you know, the twenties, you know, as far as alcohol, you know, the um what was that called? Prohibition. Prohibition, yes. You know, we think of prohibition, you know. We think of cigarettes and their production, you know, granted, longer term, you know. And I think of, you know, and and granted, I think of it in terminology of even work, you know, and food addiction, you know, and even even sex, you know, of the you know, the sexual revolution type stuff and you know the addictions to pornography. I think, you know, there is this timeless dynamic of addiction. and what I do to get this dopamine hit to a certain degree. This this satisfaction. And so for me that becomes a part of the timeless. And then being able to take and that’s the that’s the um that’s another interesting part about this uh this dynamic in time is we are now developing a lot of um uh therapy, if you will, around the what what they call dopamine detox. You follow me? Now now we have these therapies that are being developed. that are helping people recognize, okay, yeah, I’m addicted to this dopamine cycle. Yeah. And that can and and granted, dopamine is a good thing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

In its, in its In a con in its design. Yeah. The way God has designed us, but you know, timely, you know executives have found a way to make that an addiction.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and I and I think they’re not alone. It’s just that’s the addiction of this era. And I think in some ways from my perspective as a parent were looking back saying, oh, this isn’t this isn’t as this isn’t just entertainment. You know, and unfortunately, I think, you know, so often in family systems that I see having my child occupied or entertained by this by this social media dynamic or a screen allows me more time to address my things, whether you want to call it addiction or not. It allows me more time to work. It allows me more time to, you know, do things effectively. And I think And I quote that in effectively, you know, because I’m not interrupted. You know, I can I can do whatever I want to do uninterrupted.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because my child isn’t you know, interrupting me. There they’re not being an inconvenience. And I and I think, you know, that that becomes a a cultural aspect when uh we see, you know, kids as an inconvenience. Mm-hmm. You know

Justin:

this is also a timeless thing and that you know, I think every generation of parents has had something to send their kids to do, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And we you know, a lot of uh older, you know, grandparents age type thing would be like, Well we sent our kids outside to play and that was a healthy thing. But really It’s just that same paradigm of get out of my hair, I need to be eff effective, like you said. And that was the thing that they sent um their kids out to do. And Um to the again, back to the timeless aspect. Um, we look at that nostalgically and think that was best, better than it is now. Um, I think we’ll find out in another generation that, you know, there are trade offs to both of those things.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And kids who are playing on their phones for hours at a time There’s a lot of negative that’s what we’re talking about, right? Like we’re definitely talking about the negative. But I also think there’s gonna be some trade-offs where they’re gonna learn some things That will benefit them in their life as a result of that. Just like the kids who are sent outside to go play and built forts and all that. Like they learned some things that were effective in their life. And again, we look at that nostalgically and think that was only healthy. But I I’ve been involved in celibate recovery a long time. The particular area of addiction I hear a lot about is uh sexual addiction. And a very common story I hear from guys who are older than me is Well, me and my friends, you know, in our fort, you know, one of ’em brought one of their p uh dad’s porn to that fort, you know, whatever. You know, no, I and so the kind of the isolation setting ’em off where they’re unsupervised and you also hear about Um, you know, boys molesting other boys because of that time alone. Like, I’m just saying, yeah, it’s important to understand the timeless aspect to shooing your kids away to do something.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Um, you know, it’s always impacted kids in in a positive like sometimes positive ways. And again, I think there’s a lot of independence that was learned. through kids going off and biking around town and all those things, right? Like but I also think we nostalgically forget kind of the negative trade-offs to that too, or we left our kids exposed.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

In areas where you know, where they shouldn’t have been. And now w we’re we’re we can be more hover parents, like we want to see you at all times. As long but we stick you in the corner, you know, staring at a phone.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And you’re also unmonitored.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

You’re also exposed to the same Not the same, similar types of uh

Mark:

exposure.

Justin:

Predation for one, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um and yeah, exposure to addicting type things, you know. But They can do it in plain sight, but it you know, the and it looks like

Mark:

It looks safer.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

And I think, you know, our culture has become, you know, kind of consumed. with safety.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

You know, because and we’re we’re almost becoming risk averse.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, to where there is something beneficial. You know, to developing children to be able to take a risk. I think that, you know, that’s a that’s a part of where we are seeing such an increase in anxiety.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, because there is this dynamic of, you know safety and perfection and you know and that that’s a difficult thing for you know young kids to be able well you know I can’t do that you know and we’re we’re cre in that safety and granted I agree with what you’re saying a hundred percent. That’s kind of where, you know, addictions, you know, aren’t new.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, that’s that’s the timeless piece that addiction isn’t new. Each generation has its addiction to a certain degree. And like you see, like you were alluding to, I’m part of that generation that grew up with too much free time.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But in a cult I think our culture has gone the other direction. There th we know of the predadation more than we do, so it’s safer for my kid to be in that room uh and and occupied. ‘Cause I know where they’re at. Yep. The issue is I don’t know who else is out there and who’s influencing them right through that screen

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And so that’s that’s that’s the that’s the I appreciate you know you addressing that. I think you put it to words better than I did in that process of you know addiction is one of those timeless things. And I think we can go from one extreme to the other. It’s like just go outside and play, you know, and get out of my hair.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

But I think, you know, that’s when we see kids as a Inconvenience, you know, and granted, that’s not to say that we have to this is the other part of it I think we have to be able to recognize

Justin:

that sometimes kids are an inconvenience.

Mark:

And and at the same time, boredom is beneficial.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay. I think we’ve grown up to a certain degree, you know, with parents who are motivated, you know, by the it’s a bad thing if my child is bored. And in reality, that’s not true. You know, boredom is a is a benefit to our bodies, to our minds. You know, the ability to have our minds kind of Free full free float if you will. Yep. You know, and just think, oh, I wonder if I’m look what would happen You know, those, like you said, those problem-solving kind of dynamics that that boredom alone can create. And I think, you know, we’ve we’ve taken that to a sense where boredom is bad. Mm-hmm. And, you know, being able to recognize, okay, yeah, boredom isn’t bad. Boredom is is healthy. And I think, you know It’s interesting because I was thinking about it even w with my own kids. It’s like I think they learned not to tell me they were bored because I just, you know, made sure they had fixed that. to do, there’s this to do, and I think they learned in some ways how to entertain themselves.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think that’s a you know a dynamic that this you know people who are addicted to screens have not learned that dynamic of how to entertain myself.

Justin:

Like a broken you know, yeah, a broken part of the system. Yeah. Where they can’t, yeah. And that’s I mean, I even find that true for me, right?

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Uh, in the sense where if I’m in line, to me, that’s just an opportunity to look at my phone. Like I’m never gonna just sit in line. And I’m I’m to be perfectly honest, so thankful that that’s a thing I can do. Right? It’s like you never have to stand in any line or wait in any any line and do nothing anymore.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And to me that is just with the amount of stuff that I have to do in my life, it’s like that’s a great opportunity for multitasking and re checking up my email or you know, even at you know, looking at something entertaining or whatever.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I love that. Sure. I love it.

Mark:

Would you say you’re addicted to it though?

Justin:

I would say yeah it comes and goes.

Mark:

Okay. That’s fair enough.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Because I realize I I don’t think we necessarily we don’t like to use the word addiction Even in this even in this video, they talk about, well, I don’t want to use that word because it you know it’s too polarizing. Yes. And I I hear where they’re coming from, but at the same time If it is what it is, that’s what we call it.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But I think it does say, oh no, I’m not that.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

I’m not that bad. I only just I just take my phone out every time I stand in a line.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

You know, if it’s something, uh let’s let’s be honest. If it’s something Um addiction basically has the it doesn’t matter what the thing is. It’s my inability not to do it.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

That makes something an addiction. And that’s why I’m saying it can be work, it can be food, it can be volunteering

Justin:

That’s where I say I could not I could not do it if I wanted to.

Mark:

The classic line

Justin:

of denial.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

But being able to recognize, okay, can I stand in a line? Can I wait? Can I sit in my car at a at a you know a traffic stop, you know, like a a flag, you know, and you know, where highway construction, can I sit in my car and just observe? Or do I have to pull out my phone and entertain myself? Because I do believe that’s another part of our culture. We have to, we have to be entertained. Even as I was thinking about um what I may share, that kind of thing. This could be part of the the the the B role, you know, ends up but um I was thinking about it in the context of uh when I used to do intensive in-home. And the one thing that I noticed about um the homes that I was in was the inability for quietness. Okay? And I and I don’t mean silence, because silence can mean something completely different You follow me. But if there’s if there is this if there is the inability to have quiet in a home or quietness, then w there’s there’s a certain level of addiction there from my perspective With if we have to have yes, we have to have the TV on. We have to have, you know, music plan. Granted, all those things can be fine. But there again, music in itself creates a dopamine hit, you know, that kind of thing to where, you know, in this culture, you know, who doesn’t have 350 songs on their playlist. You follow me? Because we spend the entire day listening. Or, you know, we have to have the TV on, even if it’s something we’re not even watching. You follow me? That in itself, from my perspective, is a limited form of addiction. I have I think, you know, there is this because if we can’t Be quiet. Okay. We don’t have the opportunity to have a timeless conversation. You follow me? Because in my mind, and and granted. I like the the fact that you use the multitasking, you know, that’s sometimes lauded as a beneficial thing But there is a tremendous amount of inefficiency in my ability to think if I’m trying to do one thing. And granted, a young mind can do this rather quickly. going back and forth between, but it still makes them less efficient about what they’re doing. Not that efficiency is the is the only thing, but we have to recognize that, yeah, and it that’s an another dynamic is the aspect where um our attention span, okay, I want to say from I wanna say it’s uh early two well, two thousand and ten, I’d say our attention span has dropped from twelve seconds to eight seconds. Mm-hmm.

Justin:

My my attention span went really low when when I couldn’t hear through your the thing stuck in your throat. So I had to get you a water.

Mark:

That’s all right. I appreciate it.

Justin:

I was like, I’m not the only one who’s having a hard time listening. I bet the listeners are gonna have a hard time.

Mark:

I appreciate that. Uh not that it necessarily went away, but we we we made a we made a novel attempt.

Justin:

Because Mark’s gonna he’s gonna push through.

Mark:

The reality of it is at eight seconds, okay, that makes our attention span one second less than a goldfish. So there again, B-roll material. Yeah. But it is and and you think about how um How important that is.

Justin:

Well, I haven’t thought about that.

Mark:

Well, one second. You think about how important that is to having a timeless conversation. if my attention span is basically eight seconds and then I’m looking to the as you said, as you said, well I have a thought about that.

Justin:

It’s been eight seconds. It’s my turn.

Mark:

It’s my turn. But but that’s the that’s the interesting part, okay, when I think about that. Because I know that we have seven to ten seconds, or basically that eight seconds, to make healthy decisions sometimes. So if I’m automatically you know, on that lower edge of seven to ten, I’m hardly taking enough time to make a healthy decision. Yeah. I’m already stuck Not stuck, but I’m already caught up back in impulse. In that impulse, that biofeedback loop that keeps me doing the same thing. The the fact that I’m gonna spend ten ten minutes on Facebook And suddenly it’s two o’clock in the morning, I’m suddenly realizing, oh my goodness, where did the time go? How often do you hear that? I was just gonna do this. and suddenly I realized it was an hour later. You know, uh th this another irony, um, I forget where it was, I wanna say in Europe somewhere, a a Parent uh parents were brought up on charges for starving their child because they had spent so much time online nurturing their online child. You follow me? They had an online entity that they were responsible for. And they actually spent so much time online that their own physical child was neglected and actually passed away. And then the And they weren’t actually brought up on charges. They weren’t convicted because they had an addiction.

Justin:

Oh wow.

Mark:

So, you know, I mean, but that’s the kind of thing that, you know, and that’s where I’m saying a lot of this therapy is coming out of, you know, this context of we are so addicted that we don’t even realize how much time we’re spending. But I’m sorry, I want to come back to what you were gonna say.

Justin:

Uh I think I had more than eight seconds to think about it. And it’s a really good thought and I enjoy thinking about it, but it’s not contributing to this I’m sure it’ll come up in a future conversation.

Mark:

Likely so. I’m gonna I’m I’ll put that in a nutshell. It’s overrated as far as I’m concerned.

Justin:

Agreed.

Mark:

But at the same time, and it’s so that’s that’s a part of you know what we’re learning, what we’re recognizing, and you know, even being able to recognize, and I think it’s a it’s a contributing factor when I think about that child. Um as our use of social media goes up, our empathy goes down You follow me. And and I think that’s a that’s another, you know, I’m not saying that hasn’t happened before culturally, but we know that based on social media. The more impact I have there you know, the more my empathy goes down. And I think in in some ways, even in our I thought of our um our tech episode or our um where we talked about Was it was it technology? Was it about social media? Social media, yeah, it was about social media. And I I like that uh I likened that image you had of silos.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and how we have social media tends to create

Justin:

tends to isolate us.

Mark:

Well yes, it it tends to isolate us, but What we’re thinking is it tend we have the thought, the perception that it’s uniting us. When in when in reality it is dividing us based on the fact that if you do a search and I do a search, we both get individualized information that feeds us what we want to hear.

Justin:

Yeah, and you and I might end up in the same bucket or we might end up in separate buckets and that bucket becomes more and more uh self-feeding to the degree and this is your point, right? That now I’m convinced everyone in the world is like this and if you’re not, you’re super weird. And I’m over here in my bucket and or silo, right? I’m over here in my silo getting the exact same thing. I’m getting only articles that reinforce my beliefs based on things I’ve already searched, based on comments I liked on Facebook, etc. etc. etc. And I’m just over and over and over fed this information that says, you are right. You are right. You are smart. Here’s your dopamine head. You are good looking. We like you. We like you. You’re the best. You’re the you’re on top of the world. Like all these things. And we’re like, but Mark’s over there and he must be the only one on the planet who thinks what he just said. Like that’s insane. And he’s he’s thinking, Justin’s over here, he must be the only one on the planet. Like what is wrong with him because of these silos we get placed in. And like you said, they have the appearance of being universal.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

But the reality is they’re silos. We’re in there along with you the others who are like us. But generally th in order to keep you uh engaged, they keep you with more people who are like you and they kind of help you figure out how to get rid of those you don’t like or voices you don’t care for.

Mark:

Sure

Justin:

And you know, they a lot of times, especially in today’s culture, it will be framed in the sense of tolerance or offense, right? Like if you’re offended by certain material Just tell us and we’ll get it right out of here for you ’cause we care about you.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

And it’s really about no, we want to keep you engaged and we want to keep that the you in your silo because that’s what keeps you coming back. And

Mark:

yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s just very Yeah. It’s good stuff good stuff. Um yeah, and then so all of this let’s come back to what you started with. In order to get to there, I want to share a little bit uh an anecdote from Megan. Um because she works in a hair s a salon and you know, she does a lot of you know, hair for a lot of ladies who are in an older generation than her. Um, because we live in a retirement community. So kind of that generation.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And oh how often they lament. this generation. And they will often say, I don’t know how you do it. I don’t know how you raise your children in this generation and it is so messed up and If it were me, I never would have had kids and just kind of like hand washing the way this generation is and it and it’s terrible and the world’s gonna come to an end and all this kind of stuff. And, you know, Megan’s always trying to bring it back to hope and ultimately saying, I I think we’re doing okay. You know what I mean? Like Um, and and and there is some differences in this generation and that’s obvious. Sure. Let’s come back to hope. Why why is there hope, Mark?

Mark:

Uh, there’s hope because it while While there may be all of this information out there to keep us in a loop, we have a choice whether we go there or not. That’s the way I see it. And the reality of it is we can establish boundaries around this social media time, how much time is spent. The research basically is telling us is, you know, there’s this opportunity, you know, as as we’re learning, that two hours is that window. Okay, kids who spend more than two hours of screen time d are far more likely to suffer from depression, anxiety, you know, um body image issues, those kind of things, two hours is that window. Kids who spent less than two hours are far less uh subject to that mental health dynamic. Mm-hmm. So the for me that’s hope. In other words, yeah, we can recognize in the timeliness that Social media and technology is here. You know, now granted, can something happen that wipes out all the electricity? You know, I’m not a I’m not a conspiracy theorist, but sure, it’s just it’s possible. You know, but yet at the same time, for now it’s here.

Justin:

Speaking of that,

Mark:

you got another topic.

Justin:

The goldfish.

Mark:

And the goldfish.

Justin:

Yeah. He said that you know the goldfish has certain time whatever. We have we have less than they do. Yeah. That’s what I was referring to. Anyway, uh have you heard about the uh people who uh go and shoot up uh the a power what do you call that? The big place

Mark:

Oh yeah yeah like a transformer station.

Justin:

Yeah they’ll go with there. semiotics and shoot ’em up.

Mark:

No.

Justin:

And it’s part of this conspiracy of like we’re gonna shut down the power grid and it’s gonna return the world back to We’re gonna go over there with our ARs and take care of that.

Mark:

I was thinking more of like a solar flare or something like that, you know. Yeah. But either way.

Justin:

Well that’s a real thing that’s happening. So it’s just funny about your conspiracy. It’s like But the actual real world impact of that is pretty minimal. It’s just super inconvenient for a little bit, especially for authorities And the thing uh just like all things like this, right? They ruin it for everyone else. Like mm, now we’re gonna have basically, you know, prison walls built around these things and Subia I anyway

Mark:

Well I and I think well uh that’s that’s an interesting dynamic though for maybe for another topic, but as AI tends to control more and more of our interaction, you know, if something happens, it’s like I’m thinking about we put a one of those little electronic door uh things on our house. You know, we would punch and it’s like, yeah, what happens is the batteries die. You know, before I just used to keep a key and you know and I had a mechan, you know, used to be Well, even with the electrical grid. There used to be a guy, you know, that stood at a gate that was guarding that transformer station or that switch. You know, now if uh if something electrical happens somewhere suddenly some things get shut down just because that switch is no longer available. And I you know, that’s just part of technology. As we be but as we become more reliant on it, it’s interesting. I mean, think about it in the context, how many phone numbers do you know?

Justin:

I know I know mine. Do ya? And I know Megan’s.

Mark:

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. But I’ll be honest, I d I don’t know my children’s.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

Phone numbers.

Justin:

See.

Mark:

You know, that kind of thing. I mean, I know my parents. I probably know I know more phone numbers from prior to getting a phone, then I I can still remember certain numbers. I can remember phone numbers of neighbors that aren’t it no longer exist. You know, that kind of thing. But You know, I don’t know contact. Now we’ve commit so I think that’s just another part of our of our timely dynamic

Justin:

I’m trying to remember my childhood phone number.

Mark:

Oh.

Justin:

I’m that uh Goldfish, I’m sorry.

Mark:

Goldfish. That’s gonna be the new squirrel for us.

Justin:

That’s right. Squirrel.

Mark:

But either way, this this concept that, you know Technology is here.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay. And two hours is that window of being able to say, okay, this would this we can establish a boundary around. And I think, you know, as parents, it is important for us to be able to recognize we can do that for our kids. Are we gonna get some pushback? Of course.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

And is it is your child gonna be unhappy with you? Of course. But that’s why you’re a parent and they’re a child.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, if we’re expecting our children to be our friends all the time then uh we’re not we’ve already messed up as a parent.

Justin:

Yeah. You’re heading the wrong direction, yeah. Yeah. When and speaking to myself, I mean I’ve struggled with that. I really do. And I mean we still yeah, I mean I think we have decent boundaries, but man, they are hard to hold on to.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Especially as, you know, your kids get older and they have more you know, logical arguments that you’re like, I see why you think that argument is good.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right? It’s like and I even feel bad that I you know, I’m not gonna give you a an argument that you feel is adequate.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Doesn’t matter.

Mark:

Yeah, it may not make sense.

Justin:

I know more than you. Yeah. Yeah. That it does get harder and harder to hold those.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Hold the line. You know.

Mark:

Yep. And I and I would I I hear where you’re coming from and I think I erred as a parent, I erred on the other side of that continuum that basically it’s I was probably too authoritative, you know, at times. And I you know, I think a you know

Justin:

It’s tough though that balance

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It really is.

Mark:

Yeah. And so, you know, just being able to recognize, okay, yeah, I need to be able to deal with the issues that are mine. In a like that that Matthew 7. 5, you know, taking the taking the log, the plank out of my own eye to be able to see to remove the speck from my child’s eye type thing. And I think I have to

Justin:

speak to that.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And just go right at right at the case. If you’re struggling with looking at porn on your phone, you’re not gonna stop your kid from You’re not gonna pour on his phone. You’re not gonna touch it. Or

Mark:

something else.

Justin:

Yeah, I’m just going right at that one because to me that’s a very common one that I know of.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Is you know So many again, the world that I operate in, I you know, I work with a lot of guys and I you know, whatever. I’m I’m aware that this is very common. And I think it’s kind of a a duh thing for most people. Like, yeah, I think most people, you know, struggle with looking at porn on their phone sometimes, you know, right? So all I’m saying is that’s a big problem to parenting well, uh, for kids who are on their devices because Why would you say they have to put Covenant Eyes on their phone? Covenant Eyes is a software that helps track what they’re doing and make sure that they’re not, you know, looking at the wrong stuff and sends reports to people if they’re d looking at the wrong stuff. Why would you put that on their phone if there’s a chance that someone might say, Well, hey, maybe we should do this on everyone’s phone.

Mark:

Mm. Sure.

Justin:

Well, well, well, I’m an adult you know, whatever. You like Let’s not approach that conversation or let’s not you know or or we might kinda be like, I have a hunch he he’s looking at porn on his phone, but I can’t approach it because questions might come up.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So I think that Matthew seven, kind of that the just like you s like you said, if I have that log in my eye, the chance that I’m able to see the or or or deal with the moat the small speck in my child’s eyes is problematic.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

You know, because someone’s gonna point their finger back at me and now I have to deal with it. Yeah.

Mark:

You know? And it might even be my child.

Justin:

Right. Yeah.

Mark:

And I’ll I’ll I mean just as a as a timely dynamic, you know, um I wrestle I deal with this a lot with weed. You know, it’s like, well who are you to say that I can’t? Why is it not good for me? But I know you smoke, you know, that kind I’ll uh you know, that’ll come out in sessions, you know, and you know, and it’s not That that’s uh uh it’s not that I’m not aware when there’s a essence, you know, in the house in the room, you know, that kind of thing.

Justin:

Nice way to put it. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

But I think that’s and I think as we need to this is where maybe in com in some ways it comes back to our boundaries conversation. If we don’t have healthy boundaries for ourselves as parents, how do we establish them for our kids or help our kill our children establish them? If we’re not demonstrating what healthy relationship looks like, how do we expect our children to have healthy relationships those kind of things. And I think, you know, so often in that authoritative dynamic, you know, there was this aspect, do what I say, not what I do. You know, and now we’ve come to the maybe another dynamic that’s basically saying, well, I just can’t tell you no because I’m not dealing with it myself.

Justin:

Yeah. Yep. Yeah, and uh so kind of coming back to Megan’s conversation, she’ll often bring it back to kind of the like you you started with the timeless aspects to parenting and how Well, you know, she she’ll bring up some of the things we talked about, how it used to be this way, but now it’s this way and basically it has new challenges and we’re l working through that and our kids are doing okay and yeah, they’re gonna have some messed up thought. based on this particular paradigm they’re in now, just like I had messed up thoughts from the particular paradigm I was growing in. And I think the ho coming back to hope, the hope isn’t that oh it’s fine. That’s not the hope The hope is that it’s bad like it’s always bad. Right? Like there’s always gonna be sin crouching in like you know at the door.

Mark:

At the door, sure.

Justin:

Right? And W it’s always our job to s to lock that door and keep it closed and and and if somehow we let it in, kick it back out, right? Like that’s universal timeless truth.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And it doesn’t matter what the generation you’re in, it’s it’s gonna be at the door.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I think the hope is that we have the opportunity there, especially if you you know you’re a believer in Jesus Christ and and you have that hope inside you and you have the Holy Spirit operating within you.

Mark:

And we have the power through Christ to transform.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Yep. And the in back to the I re referenced this earlier with Stephen Covey in the first chapter, his first principle of the seven principles of highly effective people is proactivity and and the what he talks about in that is a concept from Victor Frankel even, which was a psychiatrist from a while back who went through the Holocaust. Yada yada yada.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

About Between he was stuck in a Nazi prison camp and he realized that they can torture me, but they can’t convert my thinking.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

They don’t have that option because between stimulus and response I have the option to choose what I how I respond. respond. Now we get into that eight second thing, right? Well if you respond within that eight seconds you might not be actually choosing.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You might be more on that animalistic instinct. And animals don’t have a choice to think about their response. They only can respond in instincts, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So I see a human, I run and that I don’t think about is that a nice human, you know, or whatever. Sure. It’s just the instincts kick in where we have the opportunity to decide is this safe or not? Is this right or wrong? Is this something to Should I watch this next YouTube video? Should I click this link? We have an opportunity. And if you feel, you know, you you’re slipping yours yourself slipping into that one video turned into two hours kind of thing Uh maybe one technique is to say wait nine seconds after each video.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And if you’re still, yeah, I think I’d like to watch another one and you can make that. decision consciously, sure. Then it’s okay.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Because I yeah, I I also think it’s important not to decry all of these things. Like standing in line looking at YouTube or whatever. That’s not a bad thing.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

It can be a bad thing. It’s important to think about it. You know? Same thing like with sitting down to look on social media after work. That’s not a bad thing. It can be a bad thing.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Sitting around and watch TV after work.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

It’s not a bad thing. It can be a bad right

Mark:

like And I think you bring uh I I like what you shared about, you know, as a parent, you know, our role is to kick it out the door. And I think about it though in the aspect of technology and much of that is already in our homes. So at that point, it’s one thing if somebody’s outside my house trying to get in.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

There’s a lot of options for that. But if something is in my house and it’s become a friend to me, then it’s far harder to kick out.

Justin:

It is.

Mark:

And I and I’m not, you know, I’m not saying it’s impossible. I’m agreeing with everything you say regarding choice, but I think the things that we have made pets if you will, that are inside our house are far harder to deal with. But yet it just means we need to be able to call it what it is.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

It will you know, whether it’s an addiction or whatever and and then deal with it accordingly. And I think that that in and of itself still offers hope because there is a choice. There is an opportunity to be able to do something different. And I think there is something to be said for, you know It no matter the era, no matter the timeliness, there is something to be said for having routine opportunities to engage one another as family.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

And I think there’s something, you know, another another balance, if you will, if you’re gonna spend up to two hours on FaceTime, you you have to you commit to having at least two hours or balanced opportunity for face-to-face interaction. You know, and I think so often it is this aspect of we just kind of go to our silos and entertain ourselves until the next day comes. Yeah. And then, you know, but there there are consequences to that as well.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And I think so often the the as parents we have that ability to say, okay. Well, how are you interacting with other people? We gotta we we need to create boundaries that say, okay, this much time, and then you still go Play with the kids, but we know where you’re at and it’s not we’re getting rid of you, but we’re just creating this face-to-face interaction that I learn I learn emotional intelligence. That’s another, you know, dynamic that is, you know, just

Justin:

Yeah, being with other people in real life circumstances. Yeah. Being able to read social

Mark:

cues.

Justin:

Yeah, I think I’ve seen this with our kids but in this generation trying to avoid real life situations and get to their social media life because It’s easier. Oh

Mark:

far. Right.

Justin:

And like you said, uh and it has a lot to do with that emotional intelligence. So not having it And or dealing with others who don’t. Because you know what I mean? Where it’s like, wow, they said that, they think that, they do that. It’s like kinda hard to believe sometimes, but at the same time not, because when you think about their interactions are only with online social media, you know, yeah.

Mark:

No, I hear you. And I think I think a part of that uh di aspect of when social media increases, empathy goes down.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

There’s this inability to really listen to a friend who has an emotional issue.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me. And it and it became well, you’re just too sensitive.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I I didn’t mean it that way. I just texted that.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, or well, you know, I think there is this Yeah, yeah, it is a dynamic where the empathy goes down and there are consequences that go along with that.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I thinking about you know, you asked me about addiction for me, if it’s an addiction I said it kinda comes and goes, and it just made me think about the life cycle of my kids and how when they were younger they were like kind of just foreign to me. Right? Like where a mot it’s kind of the mother’s time where they they nurtured, they do all this stuff. But not in all families, but in ours. It was it was kinda hard to connect with them. And so I’d sit with them and I’d be like All right, go get my phone. And it became a habit and became addiction to where whenever I was with my kids I’d pull out my phone and read Twitter.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And that was definitely a thing. And Megan called me out on it several times. Finally I heard her and I was like, yeah, this has gotta stop.

Mark:

And sure.

Justin:

I feel like I vastly improved in that area. In fact, you can ask Megan, you know, if you if she agrees. And then but you know, it comes and goes. It moves from Twitter to something else or productivity has become another thing where it’s like there’s so much to do with my job. I’m always thinking about Well, I could steal some moments right now to check that email or respond to this person that I need to respond to or whatever. And that becomes its own version of dopamine, like, oh I feel a little bit better. I got that checked off my list or whatever. Um and life cyc cycle of my kids they’re now at the age where at two of them have phones.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I see how uh It feels like when I pick them up from school and the whole way home they’re just on their phone. And I’m like, hello, you know. Sure. And I’m like, man. That’s exactly what I did when they were kids. You know, now they weren’t hoping I was gonna talk to them, they were playing with their Legos or whatever. Doesn’t matter. And yet maybe their words are very eye-opening to me. And it just makes me go, you know what? It’s okay to say this isn’t okay. And so I have the conversation. Like, hey, puppy kid from school, mm, you don’t get to be on your phone the whole way home. Sure. But it’s just rude to do that to to anyone, like to be riding a car as they bring you bring you somewhere and just be on your phone. It’s like that that’s not something we’re gonna do.

Mark:

You know what

Justin:

that’s a boundary.

Mark:

Justin, do you know what that’s called?

Justin:

Boundary?

Mark:

No. When someone has too much to do that they have to be on their phone.

Justin:

Addiction.

Mark:

It’s actually a tur. I I’m I’m contributing here a little bit. It’s called fobbing.

Justin:

Fubbing.

Mark:

Fubbing. It’s basically phone snubbing. Because you uh have so much to do on your phone that you know if we enter the elevator at the same time.

Justin:

Fucking turn.

Mark:

So it’s basically I’m too busy with my stuff to interact with you when we step onto an elevator together. So it’s just, you know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. So yeah, you feel fobbed

Justin:

when

Mark:

when you’re child.

Justin:

That’s right, that’s right.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And you know, like I said, Megan’s worked on me a lot about this because of in our own relationship. So we’d go out on a date and I’d be checking my phone every once in a while. It’s like Uh it didn’t seem bad. Now looking back it’s like ew you know like just that I did that. But her saying, hey, don’t do that And then it you know, we’ve even flipped the script where I’ve said, Hey, you said I couldn’t do that. Why are you texting your sisters? That’s the same thing. Like in in her mind, it’s perfectly wholesome, right? But it’s like I couldn’t have a conversation and it went back like we both had this thing f yeah, but we both were fobbing each other at different times for various reasons. And in our mind it was like, Well this is fine and okay. I’m not this isn’t This isn’t a about you. This isn’t a I’m not doing this to you. This is about the thing I have to do. And it’s like, no, no, no. It is to that for it is an offensive thing. And Um anyway, I th I I brought up the conversation with my kids because I think they can be mirrors and if you have that blessing in your life of having a child They can mirror your own behavior and you can start to see, yeah, I need to moderate my own behavior because you know I see it mirrored in them or I see how it can impact them.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um that can be a great motivator. It certainly was for me as as well as Megan, you know, in our conversation. So

Mark:

no doubt.

Justin:

A little bit of hope, maybe.

Mark:

Yeah. I think there’s a lot of hope in the process of when we’re able to recognize that there are still some timeless dynamics, face-to-face interaction, being able to encourage one another. knowing that yes, even in relationship there is such a thing as healthy jealousy. You know, we think of jealousy as a psychotic thing so often, you know, well you’re just too jealous. But there is a healthy it just means, you know, our priorities are off.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And being able to re-establish some of those in a timely, healthy, timely manner that says, okay, what does God have to say about this? Yeah. Because I think those truths are still evident. And that becomes another one, you know, that just kind of reinforces, okay. Am I willing to deal with what’s in my own eye in such a way that says, okay, we can deal with this together? And I think that’s what makes helpful families. And I think, you know from my perspective, having a healthy relationship, health healthy marriage, you know, creates healthy families as you describe your relationship with Megan. As you guys have a healthy relationship, you’re able to d you know, develop a healthy family. And that’s uh that’s just a a timeless thing. And yet I think, you know, some of this stuff puts the family very much at risk, you know, culturally speaking. So yeah. So that being said, I uh I appreciate you allowing me the time to share.

Justin:

Oh man, that’s good stuff. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for uh Stealing some of your material and roll material.

Mark:

Yeah, it’s not stealing anything. It’s just out there. There’s a l and and like you say, uh like I’m saying, if there’s If you’re wrestling, if there there is hope, there’s a ton of information out there. And you know, just being able to identify And and and live in such a way that says, okay, if somebody’s noticing this about me, it it’s probably real and I may need to deal with it. And if I need to get some help and you know, in that process, there’s help out there. I don’t have to continue, you know, in that addiction, whatever it might be.

Justin:

Maybe in the show notes we can link some of the research and stuff that you’ve been Digging into

Mark:

maybe. Uh

Justin:

or resources, like even in this this this event you go to, I’m sure there’s gonna be resources offered. I know Covenant Eyes is one that I’ll I’ll link. to um but yeah just anything like that maybe we can yeah you know in terms of offering hope we can save but here’s some tools too

Mark:

yeah and I didn’t mean to sound that I wasn’t willing to share information

Justin:

it’s just Doesn’t want to share. So I’ll do it. It’s not

Mark:

it’s not that I don’t want to share. It’s like in that process, it’s like, where did that come from? Yeah. With so much info. The ability to say, okay Where did that actually come from? Because once it goes into my notes, it’s like I’m not a real uh real you know stickler for Cr I like to give credit where credit is due, but if it’s, you know, just information that’s out there, I’m not always a yeah, linear person when it comes to saying, Oh, that’s exactly where that information came from.

Justin:

That’s all right.

Mark:

But that’s how I see it.

Justin:

That’s how he sees it.

Mark:

That’s right.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C L I C K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.