0:01
here's my question all right so we're we're going to move into a uh an illustration or or metaphor you think

0:08
about a chess player sure right he's sitting there so many moves ahead right don't get ahead of me Mark sorry yes I'm

0:16
my yes I [Music]

0:24
apologize welcome to how I see it with me Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this

0:31
is a podcast that works to countercultural polarization through

0:36
thoughtful [Music] conversations getting in my

0:43
position locked in ready to go all right so here's Here's my thought yeah oh

0:51
we're not just doing off the cuff you're prefacing me you're I mean this is off the cff off the cuff prefacing you okay

0:58
cool um one very polarizing Topic in like

1:05
Christianity is this idea of God's sovereignty one saved always saved

1:12
predestination MH you ready to go go deep this morning I can do that I can do

1:19
that sure are we gonna yeah yeah go ahead go no I I was thinking from a

1:24
scriptural context are we bringing in right so I'll probably

1:31
quote okay or you know just paraphrase paraphrase either sure it's gonna be how

1:37
I see it it's how I see an episode of how do you see it Mark

1:43
because the Bible very clearly uses language about free will sure and our

1:51
ability to make choices and very clearly tells us to make choices right sure um

1:59
while at the same time very clearly talks about God's sovereignty

2:05
and that he's in control he's in in charge and if you read Romans 9 I mean basically Paul is saying some things are

2:13
made for Destruction and some are made for Glory and you know he uses the metaphor of um like uh a waste basket

2:22
some things are made to be a waste basket or something like that sure sure he's talking about the Potter and how

2:28
you know some vessel right basically are forit for Glorified

2:34
purposes and others are made for Destruction yes yes and even when I think about that I think about you know

2:40
it's um here again the brothers you know that he actually liked one brother he

2:47
actually you know in an Old Testament Dynamic yes yes es or Jacob I love I

2:53
hated or that whole that perspective as far as it it seeming as if he had a

3:01
favorite or he did you know with with a purpose in mind yep yeah so I'm I'm

3:09
hearing where you're coming from that that's what's coming to my mind it's like how can a loving God kind of choose

3:16
one over the other right so my I kind of want to just play with some

3:23
ideas in terms of like why how Etc um and kind of get thoughts wow okay

3:32
yeah yeah I'm good I'm yeah so one struggle that I get that I hear a lot

3:37
from from people and and myself as well is this idea that well everyone not

3:44
everyone most people believe that God is omniscient sure right and so omniscience

3:50
Define omniscience y go ahead is knowing everything sure right right right and

3:57
another uh what do we call these definition no uh attributes attribute

4:04
another attribute of God that most people agree with without without any

4:10
kind of argument or whatever is his omnipotence sure right which is power his all

4:16
powerfulness sure right so if he knows everything and he has ultimate power

4:22
right yeah um and yet in our language we can create these paradigms that say is he he

4:30
big enough to be able to do this you know big enough to make a rock he can't pick up pick up sure yeah all that stuff

4:36
that kind of from our human understanding we wrestle with yeah yes

4:42
yeah and that's that's that's what that's what I want to do wrestle a little bit I'm all for it

4:49
um so here's here's where we get stuck right we I'm not sure I'm stuck yet but

4:56
oh as people we as people who get stuck sure sure

5:03
um you think about this fact that he's omniscient he knows everything

5:08
mhm um does he know everything in the future all possible opportunities what do you think I

5:15
believe so I believe so as well here's my question all right so

5:20
we're we're going to move into a uh an illustration or or metaphor you think

5:26
about a chess player sure right he's sitting there so many moves head right don't get ahead of me Mark sorry yes I'm

5:34
my yes I apologize no okay so genius chess player

5:40
best chess player in the world and the reason they're so good is because they know every possible move in any given

5:46
point mhm right sure so key difference key or a key a key

5:52
important detail here sure they don't know your mind correct okay but they

5:58
know every other variable in terms of that chessboard so the minute the game

6:03
starts you move your piece and this person says okay I just calculated every

6:10
single possible Al you know path that this thing could take

6:15
which is impossible I mean billions and billions of options option like just

6:22
it's ridiculous right but they can do it right so they turn through like computer whatever and they go okay based on what

6:28
he just did I'm going to do this now because I just did this all of those things shifted right all those potential

6:36
future options that you might take and that I might take etc etc all of them shift but now I've made a decision right

6:45
sure and now you react to that right yep and you may do exactly what I thought

6:50
you were going to do or you might do something that's like wait oh I see he did that and now calculate all the

6:57
possible Right recalculating Rec exactly and the game goes on and on and he crushes you right cuz he's knows all

7:04
the possible moves you're just living in this world right I got you it's it's no

7:10
offense to you Mark I don't know how good at you are but this person is basically a computer this is our analogy

7:17
yes yes so obviously that's very powerful would you say they are all

7:24
powerful that's where I would have to I would wrestle with it from a human

7:32
computerized Dynamic of what we know and I think that's for

7:37
me I think some of what we wrestle with in that context what I I respect the

7:44
question but it's like I I want to follow the the vein but

7:49
I also recognize that we don't always understand so

7:56
yes ask ask me the question one more time I want to clarify yeah so the question is if this person

8:03
knows all possible moves you might make and therefore can create a plan based on

8:09
that M would you consider them all powerful omnipotent in the game speciic

8:15
in I would have to say specifically in the game of chest yes if that was

8:21
possible I would consider that omniscience of knowing his the

8:27
ability to know om what about omnipotent and there again it would be

8:34
for me to Define what power is I mean I don't necessarily I when I think of

8:40
Chess I think of it as a mental uh the

8:45
ability to know a person's thoughts you follow me I wouldn't

8:50
necessarily consider that all powerful I would consider that all knowing and that

8:57
would be how that would be why I would decipher I would say yeah I would consider that person omniscient the

9:04
ability to know but I just it's it's a I'm just thinking

9:11
about it from that aspect of power because I don't necessarily see Power equated with chess

9:18
right right that's fine you follow me I see Power as as creation to be able to

9:26
have the power the ability to speak uh something into

9:33
existence not that we don't have a certain ability you know our our words are tremendously power they're you know

9:39
they're nuclear but yet I can't necessarily make a solar

9:45
system MH just by my words but that's how I would equate you know that would

9:51
that would be something that I would attribute to omnipotence yeah does that

9:56
make sense I'm not trying to I'm not trying to you know it's part of the wrestling so

10:03
yeah that would be how I would see it I would say that person is omnicient to be able to know that that

10:11
all works okay if if if I'm okay to keep going you're okay yeah you're okay as

10:17
far as I'm concerned so let's up the antie okay okay sure not only can this

10:23
person know every possible move mhm right and all the C calculations to know

10:30
if this person does this all the way through right to the game being to the end every single possible predict every

10:37
move that I would make no not predict oh no react to every move you make and have

10:44
the whole game completed no matter which path you take follow every single possible path I wouldn't see that as

10:53
omnicient if a person is reacting MH I would see that as

10:59
something less because I would believe that person would need to know right right you follow me so here

11:09
here's what I'm going to up the antie okay and I hear where you're coming from I'm seeing yeah you're good roll with it

11:16
not only do they know all the things to do based on what you will do they know

11:21
what you will do not what you might do what you will do yeah

11:27
right once they have that piece of knowledge what you will do along with all the possible Alternatives

11:34
Alternatives sure but they know the one the one that I will choose yes

11:40
exactly are they not now in complete control of the

11:46
game well how can they not be because and here here's where I'm coming

11:53
from that person would still have the ability to make the choice

11:59
so I wouldn't say they were in control because each person has that

12:05
choice and the what are we calling him a professional what are we calling this

12:10
person then Guru the guru the chess Guru knows

12:17
that knows it but it doesn't necessarily take away the players's option to choose

12:25
my option sorry sorry the guru knows it but it doesn't take away my option to choose each and every time and if I want

12:33
to start my first move with my knight or a pawn it makes no difference I still

12:41
have that choice yeah I I'm not disagree yeah yeah

12:46
I'm not not that's that's just me making gu what I'm saying is what are you saying is your choice an

12:55
illusion because sure

13:01
again if I know every possible move and I like I've already determined I'm going

13:07
to win the game okay yeah and so I know that's a good that's a good illustration too yeah the guru wins the game yes the

13:15
grer wins and not only does he win he wins with the castle being here and the bishop being here and your king being

13:22
here like there are some pred predefined parameters that we know the game will

13:27
end in MH cuz they it's written down sure right in order to accomplish that those

13:35
things based on what you're I know you're going to do

13:44
MH hang on I'm still I'm calculating yeah I see it I see it I'm good with it

13:49
I'm good with it for me it's just hard to distinguish from from being all

13:55
knowing past future present and all powerful but yet

14:02
not free will being a a an illusion sure which I'm okay with it just just so

14:08
we're clear yeah I'm not upset by that no but that's like that that's what

14:15
that's my question that's my that's wrestling that's the that's the conundrum MH for you in that context

14:22
because it seems as if if he knows it it

14:28
somehow dimin es your ability to choose I see I don't

14:34
think I wouldn't use the word to dimin I would say what is the conundrum then help me understand that um for me it's

14:42
not a conundrum I just believe it's a illusion that I'm happy to live by and

14:48
I'm commanded to okay I'm commanded to live by this illusion so it's not that

14:53
there is a and for all intents and purposes in my life I meant to walk in

15:01
that understanding that I have this free will sure but I have this even

15:07
better knowledge that says yeah but I know the truth which is you're in

15:12
control and quote unquote I can't mess up that being said I know what it feels like

15:20
when I'm walking away from him and I don't want that like I have my free will to do what he promises in his word will

15:29
you know my life will be blessed and I will have a a better relationship with him and all these things are better as a

15:35
result of my choices sure but it's also like I have this Comfort or this trust

15:41
this belief that Mark you're not going to mess it up

15:46
you're not going to mess up God's plan I'm not worried about you living in your world messing up his plans yeah now

15:54
let's go all the way to the top I'm not worried about the president messing up his plans I'm not worried about the the

16:00
world order that controls everything that people talk about messing up his

16:06
plans sure I know he knows what they're thinking what they're going to do you

16:11
know what I mean yeah and whether you know you get down the the semantics of whether he's like whether that's an

16:18
illusion or not it really doesn't matter at that point but

16:24
um I don't know what do you think and and that's what and I guess I guess what comes to mind for me is I think about it

16:33
from as I interact with people some people will say you know

16:39
some people have a hard time saying we are blessed to be here in

16:47
America because it sounds as if we are somehow enlightened or higher they they

16:54
they don't like that they they see it as a luck they want want to refer to it as

17:00
I'm lucky to be here because in their mind they're wrestling

17:05
with that Dynamic that says okay why am I here and someone else is someplace

17:11
else yeah you know and they rustle with that because from from what I understand

17:17
their perspective to be it seems as if I've been put in a

17:23
better spot and that other person has been put in a lesser spot yeah and how

17:29
could that happen MH from a loving God type thing and and so for me I don't I

17:38
don't I I russle with that thinking on their part because it's like I can

17:44
recognize there is a plan there is a choice and it doesn't mean that one is

17:50
better or worse because I I believe they have their differences you follow me I I I I think

17:57
there's I think there's definite advantages to being here but I also think you know in America type Dynamic

18:04
but I also think there's so many more distractions that can kind of and you know I see you know commercialism and

18:12
you know and the ability to have wealth as being a blessing but I can also see

18:17
how in that free will we can choose and

18:22
many things we can put in place of God yeah and substitutions sorry go ahead no

18:31
you go ahead you know you were saying I uh I I'm feel very strongly that the

18:38
uptick and depression anxiety all these things directly correlates with the

18:43
level of comfort we have so yes we're so blessed but the fact that we don't have

18:48
to dwell every single day on how am I going to get food in my children's mouths leaves me with more existential

18:55
problems to solve sure you know what I mean yeah and so we are blessed

19:02
but I would be uh ignorant to say I am more blessed than the the village in

19:09
Africa that you know a missionary just brought Jesus to and they have this

19:14
incredible joy and every day they work their freaking butts off to provide for

19:20
their family and and and not die right like to and yet they have a bigger smile

19:26
a bit a bigger existential Joy than than I could ever know in my life because I

19:32
don't know the pain they've known you know what I'm saying sure and so I know

19:38
that's uh we're definitely in a sidebar at this point but that that I think when we talk about being blessed blessings

19:45
are um personal sure right and so there are people who live in this blessed

19:52
country who are cursed they're just miserable they cannot find joy and they

19:58
have yacht valid point and and that that's what makes it similar for me is and not even

20:06
necessarily a sidebar because it is that ability that we have to choose a free

20:12
will and and God can still use that you

20:17
know and I can choose to take wherever I am and granted that my my If I Grow Up

20:26
in a different place my view of God is so would likely be very different

20:32
than if I grew up in the United States of America absolutely you follow me yeah and so that being said from my

20:40
perspective I'm I'm probably in a I'm GNA be from what I understand in agreement with you in that process that

20:49
all of it is part of that greater plan so it's not about one being better one

20:56
being worse there is a plan that says there's a purpose in it

21:02
all and our minds aren't able to always

21:07
recognize it even even like right now in this you know it's like I don't

21:12
recognize the purpose in my father-in-law's circumstance and you

21:17
know where Chris and I are at and you know living you know living separately we're not separated of course you know

21:24
we're still by God's grace connected but it's like that becomes are wrestling it's like okay God what's the purpose in

21:31
that and I and I think so often in the midst of a circumstance it's easy to qu

21:38
it's it's it's human nature I would say to question because we're caught in that

21:44
middle ground and I think you know that's that's where or anytime when we're when we're

21:51
stuck when we whether we're thinking we're stuck whether we're feeling we're stuck you know in a situ ation I think

21:59
that's the difficult part because we recognize there is a choice and and in

22:04
that moment that choice is very real yeah and it's and it's and it's you

22:12
know at times palatable we can just you know it's like which way do I

22:17
go because she's there and she's doing exactly what she needs to be doing and

22:23
yet I'm here and we feel this distance and you know I'm not saying I feel it more or less than she does but yet you

22:31
know we're just on such different ends yeah that it becomes difficult to

22:38
understand where each other are at but ultimately this is this is for me the

22:43
grace in it is being able to recognize there's a purpose and a plan and whether I'm whether I

22:52
make wise moves that basically say I I check my own emotions and I

22:58
don't blame and I don't you know get angry at people for no reason I don't be

23:04
well sometimes I do become a little grumpy but what's that I'm sorry no

23:10
no but yeah I think that's the in that in that

23:15
moment is is is where I'm at to be able to recognize and step back from it all

23:23
and say okay God what is the purpose in this because I'm not better no one's

23:29
worse that kind of thing but yet your love for all

23:35
people is able to know the moves they're going to make and the guru is actually

23:42
still reflecting his love for us by the

23:48
plan and Al and ultimately whoever makes the choice whoever makes the decision

23:54
from the you know governmental level to the local level to the personal level

24:00
you know it's what I experience what other people around the world experience

24:05
is still part of that love even if we're not able to see it based on the current

24:12
circumstance yeah I think of um I mean I think of uh The Hiding Place Cory tinb

24:20
she wrote a book and she lived through the Nazi Holocaust and you know went through terrible situations there

24:30
um like just reading her book there was obviously times that she said I

24:37
cannot fathom God having purpose in this

24:43
terrible place in this terrible situation I just and yet her sister a

24:48
lot of the book is her just talking about how beautiful her sister's Faith was and saying I'm just barely hanging

24:55
onto the coattails of my sister's Faith wow at some point and yet we know her as

25:01
a giant of Faith she's the one who after getting out and the War ending she ended

25:08
up traveling the rest of her life and speaking and I mean for us now and her

25:16
in her books there's no doubt to that purpose yeah you know hindsight hindsight yeah yes

25:23
and she would never choose that path yeah I would never choose that path or

25:30
you thinking about like I said the the people in Africa who if they could

25:35
choose to have born in a be be born in America mhm they would of course choose

25:42
that right I would rather have that pain of depression than the pain of these

25:48
blisters on my hand and whatever right like yeah it just gets

25:56
really I don't know we'll see interesting no doubt and it and and I

26:01
and here again I think so much of that comes from our ability and in that

26:08
moment in the moment where the and and here again I don't I don't want to simplify this I want to I want to

26:16
recognize there's a depth yes to every person's experience you follow me MH to where and

26:25
so cuz I don't yeah my concern is that I come across as arrogant and

26:32
and yeah not having empathy me too so that I want I want to recognize that

26:40
that's not where I'm at I want to recognize that no matter where an individual is in the midst of a trial of

26:48
a of a difficult circumstance you know that

26:53
moment um there's a there's a terminology um that well there's a it's

26:59
actually a theory Galt you know yes and and basically it

27:05
is it is those things that are in the Forefront of my mind it's like you put your hand in front of your face you know

27:12
and it's very difficult to see you if you know or the mic or anything like that because it's it's about you know

27:21
um the sum total is greater than the whole type thing but we have these things that come into our View and it's

27:30
difficult to see the forest through the trees yeah yeah yeah okay once the tree is in front of us it's hard to see the

27:37
rest of the forest that's that's kind of what that means and I think when we're

27:42
in those trials it's hard to look back at times

27:48
and say okay this is where God was faithful in this situation this is where God was faithful in this situation and

27:55
he's still just as faithful now with this tree right in front of me as he

28:01
will be tomorrow's trees that kind of thing and I and I think as humans that

28:08
becomes the difficult part is to be able to recognize the the journey or if you

28:15
will the video versus the snapshot because so often I hold up I'm

28:22
I'm in the midst of the snapshot I'm living out this moment and sometimes it's difficult to

28:29
recognize that there's a purpose and and there's an entire video and at the end of the video you know the guru

28:37
wins and that Guru winning is to everyone's

28:42
benefit yeah another illustration of that that I've thought of many times in

28:48
my own life in terms of exactly what you're saying is is Art

28:55
this giant canvas on the wall and it's all about how how much you're zoomed in

29:01
right sure zoom in Far Enough there's nothing to see for for as far as you can

29:08
see it's black yeah it's dark there's there's nothing but dark it's just dark

29:14
it's a dark painting it's a dark art it's just the artist is dark right and

29:21
yet if you zoom out far enough mhm and are able to see the whole canvas yeah uh

29:28
uh that could be a shadow of a beautiful tree right or it could be what you know

29:35
the nose of a beaver right like yeah no I hear

29:41
depending on how far you zoom out it could be a speck right yeah um or how far you were Z zoomed in in the first

29:48
place and I think that's that big huge canvas that

29:55
represents past present future sure the past beyond what we know yeah and the

30:01
future beyond what we know you know as far as it stretches we don't know how

30:06
big that canvas is yeah cuz we didn't create it we we can't see it we we'll never be well I don't know never

30:13
hopefully someday we'll be able to travel it I don't know and and here again it's interesting as I think about

30:18
it in our in a in how I see it you know I think at times you you mentioned the beaver's

30:25
nose and everything's dark I also recognize that some people are in a spot

30:31
or might be in a moment where they see yellow yeah and everything's bright and

30:36
everything's yes and yet that can change as I move along the tapestry yes you

30:44
know and and I think that's important for us us to understand it's like this

30:49
is where I'm at today is momentary and that's why we talk so much

30:55
about how I see it right cuz this a that conversations are so important and

31:01
for me to say no you're seeing it wrong it's all yellow ah you just need to believe better that it's yellow or open

31:09
your eyes and see that it's yellow and let me just explain to you why it's yellow yellow yell y y y and you're like

31:15
um no right you're wrong you're so wrong sure and I think we can do that with

31:21
people who are in their dark spot right that's what I'm saying yeah you can be like just believe better and just have

31:27
more faith and just yeah it's not dark you you just have to change your mindset

31:32
positive mental attitude you'll be in a yellow you're in a yellow spot and you just don't see it don't know it yet just

31:39
got to up you know yeah it's like no the reality is

31:44
you are in a dark spot yes and no amount of yellow talk is going to fix that

31:49
that's correct I'd agree with that and and I and I think if we want to go to

31:55
the free will dynamic it's easy to say that person chose that if we're going to

32:02
really rustle with the agree you follow me that person's there because they did

32:08
this this and this and if they didn't do that they'd be in a yellow spot just

32:14
like me right yes and so there in there

32:19
I think coming back to the point it go it go it does go to that

32:25
aspect of okay the purpose versus the Free Will

32:30
mhm and can I make healthy choices and still

32:38
experience darkness in my life right right can you yes yes yes yes it can

32:45
happen yes the reason why go ahead you were going to say something yeah it was

32:51
because I I I don't think we're given I don't think it's God's design to live in

32:56
a utopian system someday but right now there's a

33:03
purpose and and today is and even in

33:10
that in what you refer to as the someday utopian you know there's still going to

33:15
be there's still going to be work from my perspective yeah because there's a purpose in it Y and I think you

33:24
know this ability to wrestle and you know when I think of uh you know

33:31
just God's interaction with people you know and and putting them in spots where

33:37
they have to wrestle with him I think that's a part of the the dynamic and the

33:42
purpose that says okay yeah trust me and

33:48
yet you're not going to understand it all right you're my mind I'm not saying

33:54
your mind but my mind isn't able to always always comprehend because

33:59
otherwise if we could comprehend it all we'd be omniscient right but instead

34:04
we're created in His image with certain abilities and we're you know and even

34:12
and as we've shared before there's so much of God reflected in male and female

34:18
that you know we just no one person has it all no one person can understand it

34:23
all and that's that's the beauty of what were offered from my perspective

34:31
and and I think so often it is in those momentary hurts that I lash out and I start to say

34:42
okay this God isn't loving this God doesn't care about me you know and if

34:49
he's so whatever fill in the blank you wouldn't have this and this and this and

34:56
this right and I think that's where that's where we run

35:02
[Music] into the conflict I think that's

35:08
where the the breakdown happens to where you say well that's why I don't believe that

35:16
yeah that's why I believe in Free Will and I believe you know Armenian ISM like that whole idea of

35:23
like Calvinism versus arminianism this idea that no it's up to me it's up to my

35:29
you know it's it's free will 100% all the way you know all the way up and down and U because I cannot grasp that yeah

35:38
cannot allow that to be true and I think when you venture

35:45
towards the other direction you say it has to be true so where am I wrong in

35:51
how I think about it what AM how am I viewing God that doesn't allow this to be true yeah and H

35:58
and how is that wrong how can how can all the things I believe about him to be true still be true and that also be true

36:07
that bad things can happen he can allow it he can predestin it use it use it yeah yeah

36:15
exactly and and and that's where I'm a I'm a cal

36:22
arminian calar minion you know to the to to the point of recognizing yeah it's

36:28
all of because of who we get stuck I'm going have to tell Megan there's a name

36:34
for what she is our minion because and I think that's that's

36:40
the beauty of it it yeah that that

36:46
Continuum is the is the abil is I see that as being like black and

36:52
white well it's got to be black or it's got to be white and we can recognize

36:58
that no you know if we're going to those far extremes yes that's I mean but that

37:06
doesn't mean white doesn't exist even if I'm all the way on the black side and

37:12
even if I'm on the white side I'm not assigning that but you know what I'm saying it it doesn't mean that black

37:17
doesn't exist and I think that's where we get stuck is when we think because

37:23
I'm here you know in light gray that then then black doesn't

37:29
exist and if you're if you're of the the black thinking the dark side thinking

37:38
then something's wrong with you mhm yeah because you just don't understand and I

37:44
and I think that's that's the beauty of scripture from my perspective is it's all true yes

37:51
it's big God's big enough for it to all be true and that's okay yeah for us yeah

38:00
I agree it's not that you know he's some angry person that is you know has his

38:07
you know god-sized fly swatter looking to swat you because you did this and

38:14
therefore you know you're you're going through and that I'm not making light of anyone's situation but you know that

38:22
you're going through this current sickness or this you know physical or mental you know sickness and that's

38:29
somehow God punishing you for choices you've made and you know that kind of

38:36
thing and I I mean I'd still recognize that yes the choices we make would be

38:42
yeah reaping in sewing reaping and sewing consequences I I believe there are consequences but just

38:49
because I'm experiencing doesn't always mean that I've chosen poorly yes or

38:57
sometimes it does and when you receive the consequences for choosing

39:03
poorly those consequences even in harsh I'm talking about like like I got off

39:10
with less than I deserve I'm talking about you're dealing with the Real Results the real consequences even those

39:17
can serve as light points sure as moments where we

39:24
recognize a loving God who's who will not be mocked and who is saying I love

39:31
you but you will experience this you will learn the the consequence for that

39:38
action and there's a huge difference between condemnation there and saying

39:43
like well I deserve this and and I must you know I have to walk through this and God's mad at me and I have to pay my you

39:50
know Penance or whatever and recognizing that as a loving father who just spanked

39:56
me m and he's going to hold me after mhm and he's going to walk next to me well

40:02
you know while I cry you know yeah while I experience the pain of the consequence

40:08
yeah and he's not sitting up there judging me and angry he's saying I did

40:15
tell you you know I did warn you and uh I sent this person and I sent this thing

40:22
and this circumstance you know yeah and uh I the reason I'm

40:27
so you know very passionate about this particular part of the topic I mean the

40:33
whole topic really sure but I I grew up in a church that was very Armenian very

40:38
free will very um it all hinged on my

40:44
actions yeah and so my blessings depended on my actions my curses

40:49
depended on my actions my flat tire depended on you know my actions and you

40:54
know I've talked about this before but struggled with pornography when I was young and so every time something bad

41:01
happened in my life I could always tie it back to the last time I slipped and I always did I just well

41:09
this makes sense flat tire I it's because I that and I deserve this and I guess we'll just have to deal with this

41:15
and you know maybe after I get through this consequence uh I can be close to

41:20
God again until I choose poorly again and then I'll have to do this again yeah it was this ongoing Battle of trying to

41:29
stay holy but not being able to do it because my free will is broken and I like the flesh you know

41:38
and my theology shifted um you know I want to say early college and high

41:44
school as I learned about this other side of God yeah the sovereignty as I

41:50
saw the white paint and I'd only seen black my whole life or whatever color you call it I don't it's not about wrong

41:57
right or whatever it's about Nuance yeah and learning that oh God is loving in this as well yeah

42:06
and he's Sovereign so somehow like there's this this wrestling this somehow wrestling that I think no

42:13
matter what illustrations we come up with no I hear you there will always be wrestling I'm okay with that I enjoy

42:20
that that's what this conversation about and and the thing I like about what you're sharing and it kind of comes to

42:25
my mind is the aspect of I think sometimes we think learning is

42:30
instantaneous you follow me it's like I need to memorize this I need to you know

42:37
and I'm I'm I want to be able to learn I want to be able to I all I just want to

42:43
be able to move through it right and some of the learning that you're describing you know in that process of

42:50
moving from one extreme to you know a more generalized I would say I went to

42:55
The Other Extreme you and I would say that learning that you're talking about is a lifetime learning yes and I've come

43:04
away from The Other Extreme to now I'm just it's somehow in the middle I've

43:10
definitely lean more Calvinism and more but yeah at the same time I recognize

43:15
Free Will and I accept that and I you know it's like this and so in that in

43:21
let's let's go there then do you in your Viewpoint have the ability to influence

43:27
influence God or influence the guru if you will from your

43:33
analogy I believe what the Bible says which is that he invites us into a

43:38
relationship with him as a child and so as much as I

43:44
believe I think that yes absolutely gotcha but I also

43:51
think he knows when I'm going to pray to him about that thing he planted did it

43:57
in my heart to desire that connection with him so that I would pray so that I

44:03
would ask that question so that he could move on my behalf and so when he answers prayers

44:10
for me it's more than a oh I have a father who will listen to me is no I

44:16
have a father who's so good that he would plant those seeds of fa like it's so much bigger for

44:22
me and even in the bad to recognize like well I know the truth that this is a

44:28
dark spot on a big painting that's beautiful I don't like it yeah I don't

44:35
want to be in this black and yet I know there's purpose and sometimes and this

44:41
is not to say uh I don't struggle anymore because I know that there's purpose No in fact the struggle is

44:48
different and I would say in some ways harder to say I don't want this I don't like this

44:56
mhm I can't escape it help like sure help me or help it like because and it

45:04
is a desperate prayer that calls on his love and whatever and at the same time

45:10
recognizing that there's a purpose yeah and if he doesn't answer there's a purpose if I die because of this

45:17
situation well good there's a purpose and I don't know

45:23
if all that makes sense but like well it makes sense in the process of what we

45:28
what we did because I think that's the what you're describing is that process

45:34
of coming to the end of willpower or free will that I can will

45:40
it into existence whereas there is a God who cares enough about me that he won't

45:47
necessarily let me build my own Tower of Babel if you will he won't let me go

45:55
that far to where he orchestrates circumstances to where I

46:03
always have the option to come back towards him and he's and he's make he's

46:09
he works that into my life in such a way that I can choose to continue to Go My

46:15
Own Way mhm and I can even separate myself from him but it's not that he's

46:22
ever unaware of where I'm at and still continuing to provide opportunity in

46:29
that wrestling for me to turn and be able to say Okay God yeah this this

46:35
whole life experience is bigger than me and and I need your help I need your

46:43
help understanding I need your help living this is bigger than me and I need

46:50
your help with it and I and I and I think like you're you're saying I think so often people get in into that spot

46:58
where there is a choice to choose or I'm I'm here again I'm thinking of Ernie you know again and

47:04
it's like this wrestling that I'm doing with I I I'm having a difficult time

47:11
praying that God takes him because it seems in that moment yes I I recognize

47:18
he's glown to Glory I recognize he's going to heaven and that's best for him but yet in my humanness I have a

47:24
difficult time saying got to take somebody mhm cuz that's bigger than me

47:30
mhm and yeah so yeah I wrestle with giv him healing but then we hear you know so

47:37
many people well I prayed for healing and God didn't answer that prayer so God doesn't love God doesn't exist you

47:43
follow me and I so right now in this moment I can understand both sides of

47:49
that equation and it I'm recognizing that it's more

47:55
complicated than than my small mind can comprehend I think you're oh just yeah I

48:02
think when when life gets tough well here I'll say the inverse our theology

48:07
is the strongest when we're most comfortable it's like we get it all

48:14
figured out and then we live in that figured outness and like I know God this is what he does and this is how it works

48:20
and I know you're living this way because that's what happened and this is and I know this is this because of that

48:26
and then bam you get smacked across the head with something with life yeah and

48:32
the things that were black and white if you got hit hard enough now they now look purple sure or whatever you know

48:39
what I'm saying it shifts our perspective it causes us to rethink and I believe and hope and desire that that

48:44
will be true of me the rest of my life I don't want ever figure it out because I know I don't but there are times I feel

48:50
like I I've got a pretty good lock on it you know yeah I know who God is I know what he's doing y yeah yep and then like

48:57
I said in those moments where it's like I very strongly believe in his sovereignty predestination all these

49:03
things sure but then in those moments it's like help yeah can you will you yeah is

49:13
that a thing you do I don't know but yet you told me to pray you said give me the desires of my heart okay I'm going to

49:19
believe what you said sure right yeah despite knowing that you won't listen to

49:24
me because you've already predestined what it's like no no no no no the Bible says this too yeah you know what I'm

49:30
saying and so that theology becomes a little less black and Fades a little more into that gray spot in the middle

49:35
you're talking about which is healthy for me you know I can't speak for everyone but yeah

49:42
um I also think too like yeah yeah go ahead I this is I don't

49:49
know I kind of took a left turn in my thoughts but we hear definitions of God we

49:57
hear like he's called the line of the tribe of Judah right sure and yet we know that he's not a

50:06
lion mhm right we know he's something much bigger than that sure and yet a

50:12
lion is one representation sure of who he is and it it provides a view into who

50:17
he is and the Bible has how many names of God it's a lot there's a bunch it's a

50:23
lot yeah no doubt and yet we don't believe any single one of those as being the single name of God sure and

50:29
therefore this is how it is cuz the Bible says it bam problem solved he's a

50:34
lion you know right it's like no no no but also says he's a lamb sure the Lamb of God you know yeah uh at least Jesus

50:42
is he was lion as well right yep um the point

50:48
is we get so many facets into who he is in the word of God and Free Will is one

50:53
of those facets that's very very clearcut facet through the word of

51:00
God and so I think when you look at that facet to believe that's all it is he's a

51:07
lion that's all it is is I think missing the point and then when you see the

51:13
other facet of his sovereignty and he's in control he knows exactly what's going on he planned this from the beginning of

51:20
time and you hear this and all this and that's the facet right that's right that my tendency was to shift from this facet

51:27
of free will to this one like no free will all predestination God's sovereignty and yet this facet didn't go

51:35
away they this this name of God wasn't removed from the word of God yeah

51:41
because I believed only in this name of God yeah and so there's that wrestling

51:46
of saying okay there's something to this and again I think when we get to heaven

51:52
we're not going to look at him and see oh he is a lion well yeah we were wrong all along

51:58
he was just a lion you know um and vice versa like get to heaven I'm not going

52:03
to think oh it's just free will up and down you know all the way through or vice versa and um I think instead what's

52:11
going to happen is we're going to mind blown you know no doubt oh it's that

52:16
plus that plus that plus plus that and none of it makes sense but it all makes sense and my even redeemed mind whatever

52:25
you know God transforms Us in in when we get to heaven or whatever that looks like even that version of me is still

52:32
going to be an image of him and I'm still only going to get a glimpse but maybe for the rest of Eternity I get to

52:39
just keep walking around in this knowledge and learning more more just like I am

52:44
now but I'll never be him therefore I'll never have it I don't know it's just so yeah

52:50
fascinating yeah because I'm and uh I respect ECT the fact that you know

52:57
on one end of that Continuum as we talked about you know I'm a robot I don't have any choices automa

53:05
you know you know and I and on the other end it's it's all

53:13
willpower yes and I never send me back to that end please and I and I and I

53:21
just think about them you know on those continuums yeah and it's like

53:27
like I'm so thankful that it's not either

53:32
or but I get this opportunity to do both and yeah and will I will I wrestle with

53:42
that part of me that aligns more with the robot at times or and will I wrestle

53:48
with that part of me that wants to choose free you know have us this influence over God in a willpower you

53:56
know type Dynamic but I think part of it is this ability

54:02
to recognize that neither one is most beneficial and it can be both and and

54:11
there are will be circumstances that will challenge me where I'll have where where I will need to learn it's it's

54:19
it's interesting because um this is I guess the the neat part for

54:25
me is in sometimes in in sessions I I operate by three C's okay and the the

54:32
first C is uh creating a context for Change and that's all about safety in

54:40
other words a person isn't necessarily going to change unless they feel safe good and I think that's when I can

54:47
recognize that God desires is is loving

54:52
and it I am safe with him

54:57
even in the midst of my insecurities even in the midst of the war you know

55:05
raging around me there's still a safety and I can work and I can I can wrestle

55:13
because I think the the the um creating is when we're like God it's it's the

55:19
it's the it's the working that I'm doing as I work through you know what I'm

55:26
saying saying that that to create that space to create opportunity for

55:32
Change and it and it for me that's critical because it's it's it's about

55:37
recognizing that I'm safe with God and then I then I'm able to allow him to

55:43
challenge my personal patterns and cycles and that that C is about

55:49
vulnerability and support because I'm not going to change unless I feel safe

55:54
but when I'm safe with who God is then I can be vulnerable and then I receive his

56:01
support and I can challenge these patterns and Cycles in my life that say no it's this way it's this way it's got

56:09
to be this way and so I live in that cycle doing the same thing over and over

56:14
again by my willpower and then you know but as I'm

56:20
vulnerable then I receive his support and then that support allows me to be

56:25
more vulnerable and it helps me even get to the point of the third SE is consolidation where I'm

56:32
learning and learning is the ability to compile it all consolidate gra gather it

56:38
together in such a way that says yeah it's okay to be vulnerable with God and sometimes the safest place is being

56:46
vulnerable with him in that moment when I don't want to be

56:51
vulnerable and yet unless I am I don't feel his support if I'm trying to do it

56:57
in My Own Strength I don't feel his support I don't feel that

57:03
um compassion says yeah I'm here I got you I got you you know and I and that's

57:13
that's what's going through my mind is what I think about you know it's like yeah he

57:19
um what's oh shs I'm thinking of a movie Narnia the end where the little

57:27
girls uh watching Alan walk away and she's there with tness is it have you

57:34
ever seen oh and it's been a while yeah and she talks about um him God being good but tness

57:43
says yeah he's good but he's not safe you follow me and I would challenge that

57:48
to a certain degree yes because he but it's not always comfortable and I

57:54
think we UND I think sometimes misconstrue safety with

58:00
comfort and I think that's where Comfort is sometimes counter to our

58:06
growth and therefore we like comfort and we and that's part I would even bring

58:12
that back to having to relearn you know what is actually safe

58:18
right right you follow me yeah because because I can have I I can have as you

58:24
were sharing and and I you know I can have this pornography habit that seems safe I can

58:31
go there and I can it can seem as if that individual that image offers me

58:38
acceptance which is safety you follow me but I but that's unhealthy safety and

58:44
that's where I have to come back and and and recognize I need to create a space

58:49
for Change and relearn what safety actually is yeah because we equate SA

58:56
with Comfort yes I think Comfort is the trick right yes and we have to relearn

59:02
safety to understand that Comfort does not always represent safety in the case of like you said pornography it's

59:08
Comfort it's comfortable it's easy it's whatever but it's not safe exactly yeah

59:16
yeah and sometimes growth is the safest and it feels the least safe yes

59:25
exactly so yeah and and I think that's where we can trust because I think trust is what

59:32
we're actually looking at sometimes trust trust versus safety complacency or

59:40
Comfort versus actual safety and we can recognize that God Is

59:45
Bigger that there is purpose in it even though it may feel

59:54
uncomfortably unsafe at times as I'm relearning what it looks like to trust

1:00:01
God and the fact that he does love and care for me right where I'm

1:00:07
at it's good I think of uh oh we're about out of

1:00:13
time yeah recording will stop in 20 seconds that's true so I think unless

1:00:19
you want to wrap something up oh that's good that's good there's way too much

1:00:25
all right so this is how we see [Music]

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