Mark:

Let me know if you need to clap or if you need to laugh at yourself or anything like that along that line. The three part clap.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

What’s that? What’s that? Okay. Nice. Better? Yes, that was much better. Okay. That’s much better. You didn’t even hit the mic on that one.

Justin:

That’s right. Yeah, it was less clumsy.

Mark:

Yeah No, that’s fair enough. How are you?

Justin:

I’m good.

Mark:

Good. It’s good to see you.

Justin:

It’s good to see you. It’s very good to see you, Mark.

Mark:

Well, I thank you.

Justin:

Your beer’s looking lovely as always.

Mark:

Wow It’s uh well thank you. Um uh it’s right about at the point where I where I almost just want it to be. You know, maybe it maybe you know how sometimes you get a haircut?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And it’s like, oh shucks, it’s a little shorter than I want it to be But you say, oh, two weeks we’ll be good.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, that kind of thing. Or oh wow, they really took too much off.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I’m gonna be at five months before it grows back. I didn’t I didn’t think it would be that short

Justin:

Yeah, when you got it cut lesson.

Mark:

Exactly. Yeah. I’m I’m out I’m about to the point where I want to be.

Justin:

Yeah, it was interesting because It was to me I I wouldn’t say it was that short, but

Mark:

Oh in comparison, yeah.

Justin:

In comparison. And also, I recognize previous Mark’s face

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But when you got that trim, I was like, oh yeah, I remember what Mark’s cheeks looked like and kind of that lower. Yeah, I was like, I see that version of Mark again.

Mark:

Yep. And

Justin:

that that’s very interesting. Like you’re a different mark now.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And it was funny because the uh the barber when he did it, you know, because it’s like, okay. I’m gonna ha have this professionally done. I’m gonna go to a guy. Yeah. So a guy would understand. Yeah. It’s like, you know, he’s so I trusted him. It’s like I’m not going back to that barber king I don’t trust him anymore. He says I’ll well I I took the Wolfie off for you. It’s like well I kinda wanted a little wolf.

Justin:

Get him back. Glue a bad guy.

Mark:

But it’s good now. I yeah I’m I’m fine with Welcome to How I See It. With me, Mark Pratt and

Justin:

Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations. I’m just gonna turn you up a little bit.

Mark:

Yeah, of course. You do whatever you need to do. That’s my that’s that’s what comes out of my ears.

Justin:

That’s why I w I I did it wrong before.

Mark:

Okay, that makes sense.

Justin:

There, that sounds cute.

Mark:

Is that better? Yeah, I’m still here.

Justin:

Are you still there?

Mark:

I’m still here. I gotta turn this uh back up. Yeah. We’re good. Does that work for you?

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You also are in a relaxed state.

Mark:

I was. I was I mean I thought I thought my

Justin:

surely be relaxed.

Mark:

Yeah, I thought my mic was still in the same spot, but yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. I am relaxed.

Mark:

We we uh we don’t take ourselves too seriously in this process of how I see it. So

Justin:

sometimes we laugh at ourselves, which, you know

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That’s a call back to, I guess, last week’s episode.

Mark:

Sometimes we laugh at each other even, which is even more fun.

Justin:

Especially when you do something really dumb. Yes. Then we just no, I just can’t

Mark:

I try.

Justin:

I can’t say I remember you doing something really dumb, Mark.

Mark:

Well, not necessarily on mic, you know. And and you’re limited. You know, it’s only audio. You can only make audio mistakes. Right. Really. Right. You know, you could make a lot of visual mistakes and nobody would ever even know it on the podcast.

Justin:

I can’t remember you doing that either. So Just saying.

Mark:

That’s well, fair enough.

Justin:

But I’m glad you’re relaxed. That’s the point.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And speaking of relaxed, yes. I’d like to ask you some questions about this um this vision that you and Chris have. And, you know, before we get too deep, I definitely want to speak to, you know, you were sort of mentioning this is something you wouldn’t You wouldn’t want to speak on uh without Chris.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

There’s this desire that it’s a shared vision. So I I’m gonna I’m gonna just kind of put that out there and sure and say it to the listener, like, hey, just so you know, Mark would like you know, Krista be involved in this discussion and we will

Mark:

Yeah yeah.

Justin:

We’ll we’ll we’ll get her in here and we’ll we’ll continue have a part two about it but

Mark:

Yeah. And I and I think at that point what I’m it’s like I at this moment I am speaking for us to the best of my ability. in that process and and granted, yeah.

Justin:

This is the legal disclaimer red tape.

Mark:

At that point, you know, we can have another discussion and you know Chris can definitely

Justin:

for you to say some things wrong, not take yourself too seriously, and then get Chris in here and say, Well, here’s how we really think about that. Or this is

Mark:

that’s not quite what I had in mind would be how that would discussion. I didn’t think about it quite like that. So yeah, by all means, ask away.

Justin:

So what is this project and this vision you guys have um for this uh I don’t even know what to call it. So you tell me what to call it first of all.

Mark:

That’s okay. It’s a vision.

Justin:

It’s a vision.

Mark:

That’s and like you said That’s uh I’m still developing the vision. Don’t rush me.

Justin:

It’s okay. You’re relaxed. You got your arms up still.

Mark:

But yeah, I’m gonna put them back down because I’m starting to lose blood flow. But um It’s it is a vision. And we have basically um purchased property. You know, it’s been a process. And, you know, those that know us will know, you know, we’ve been renovating an old farmhouse and you know, there was some fields and acreage and you know, and uh yeah, this is good this is where the visual part comes in ’cause once I start going there, you know, you won’t you the our audience may not necessarily see the tears, but you know, they’re they’re kinda part of it’s part of that vision. um being able to recognize that um there is a desire for me um early on I just kinda had a desire for, you know, like a recreational property, a place to go. Cause for me

Justin:

For yourself?

Mark:

No, for us as a family. Gotcha. You know, you know having kids and you know and ultimately grandkids, you know, being able to have a place, you know, that you can kind of come and uh and retreat. And I think, you know, we’ve we’ve probably talked about it before. I I feel very passionately that, you know, our routine Sunday morning church isn’t designed necessarily for men You know, I think you know the worship songs and granted, there would be some that you you know, I think when we’re in the creation, I think we can experience God in a way that we can’t when we’re in the church building, if you will. And that’s that’s always been kind of the way I was wired.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, to be able to, yeah, I I think it’s part of the wild at heart, if you will, John Eldridge stuff to where I think Adam was created outside the garden. So there is this desire for, you know, a wildness or, you know, whereas Eve was well Eve was created in the garden And I think, you know, that in therein lies specific differences between the male-female dynamic. So that outside dynamic has always appealed to me. That’s not tr necessarily true.

Justin:

I’m gonna I’m gonna be that. Uh the Chris Angel on your shoulder.

Mark:

That’s that’s okay. That’s okay. I would dare say women tend to be more comfortable in church as far as worshiping, singing worship songs, that kind of thing. That may not necessarily be every guy’s

Justin:

every girl’s it’s not a universal rule. I’m not making anything, you know,

Mark:

But it’s just an observation on my part, you know, as I talk with people and that kind of thing. So that began that process for her, but then it it developed more into uh the ability to almost, if you will, create more of a homestead style life. And I, you know, and we’ve had part of, you know, um you know, Mary Beth and and, you know, Mary Ellen. And, you know, there’s there’s been this this journey for us in this process of being able to say, okay. Let’s get back a little more to more of a localized type food, you know, chain. Because it, you know, granted the Right now, fuel and everything is, you know, in fairly inexpensive, you know, to where we ship things from here to there. But, you know, in the process of things Yeah it’s it’s unnatural at times to have certain things all year round that weren’t canned or prepared. You know what I mean? So it’s basically being shipped here, even eggs You know, in that process. Chickens don’t necessarily lay eggs at the same rate all year round. that kind of thing. But you know, you so we take a chicken and we put it in a you know a factory, if you will, a chicken factory, and we, you know, give them sixteen plus hours of light a day. you know, every day and go till they can’t lay eggs anymore and then, you know, that so it’s just

Justin:

Then they go to the Tyson factory.

Mark:

Along that line. But yeah, just being more aware of where our food comes from, being able to kind of come back. to and and even very much like you were sharing that w on on the planting things, you know, that desire to be able to kind of come back. in some ways. Not that everybody has to do it all for themselves. That’s the part that I’ll wrestle with. But out of that, as a marriage and family therapist, that it came this ability to kind of have this homestead, but yet still be able to bring other people in other to provide an environment. for families and couples, couples and marriages, couples and families to be able to kind of step away Not necessarily in a way that says, you know, this is the way you do it, because that’s not my desire, but to be able to have a place, to be able to step aside. And just see that there are other options out there and to find the ability to have a place where I can come and rest and you know and hopefully our desire would be long term. To be, you know, like a marriage retreat, family retreat opportunity. You know, that’s that’s our long-term goal. is to be able to do that. And that out of that has become, you know, kind of the vision of what we call what Chris and I currently call sparrow’s rest.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So yeah, that’s so

Justin:

so th this is the uh the non profit you can send your donations to. Eventually. Eventually we’re gonna be a thing, right?

Mark:

We’re in the yes, we are in the process of being able to work towards setting up Yeah. Those kind of dynamics.

Justin:

So essentially, you know you know, Mark and Mark and Chris both they have these unique passions, um i as he described uh homesteading is one of those and that If you’re not familiar with homesteading, that so what’s interesting is we could zero in on homesteading and that could be our podcast. And we’d probably be more successful. Like it’s there’s a pretty unique and specific niche there that um that serves a lot of people that are very interested in that. Um I I didn’t really know that till you started talking about till Kelly and Jackson started talking about my brother and sister in law. Um just there’s different pockets of people where they’re really uh interested in this lifestyle. Um And I’ve I’ve definitely gotten more interested in it as a result, though I’m not sure I’ll ever be a homesteader. Sure. I definitely support the concept and th those who um are about it. But so that’s one of the unique passions that you and Chr Chris share and to the degree where you’ll go to conferences and that’s some of the knowledge you you’re sharing about You know, how we get our food and stuff you’ve learned through some books you guys have been reading and some conferences you’ve been attending, and that’s really cool. So that’s like one half of the equation, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Uh i uh based on what you said so far. There’s there maybe there’s more parts.

Mark:

Oh no, there’s definitely more, but yeah.

Justin:

And then the other side is, you know, you and Chris’s passion towards marriages and helping marriages restore

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um and and become strong and healthy.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Uh you mentioned family a bunch of times, but I’ve always heard it as more of a marriage retreat. That doesn’t I’m not saying you guys haven’t changed that, but I’m just that I’m just I’m r reiterating what I r remember remember of it. But yeah, both of you have a a strong passion towards marriages and and and the family as it pours out of a marriage. Yes. I would say so it’s not not that family’s not important, but like that marriage is a really most key component to families being healthy, right? So let’s go

Mark:

see that as foundational.

Justin:

Foundational, yeah. So um when I hear you say uh marriage and a family retreat or whatever. Um I I’d be curious to hear more about that, if that’s a shift or not. But

Mark:

it’s it’s not a shift necessarily. Um initially as part of the vision was even to create, you know, with Chris’s um influence as a tutor, that kind of thing. Uh you know, early on we were even uh as we were thinking about a nonprofit, we were thinking about, okay, is this, you know, because you have different um headings if you will under so we could be educational or religious or you know that that kind of thing. So Initially early on in the tutoring dynamic, we had thought about, you know, a learning center.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Even, you know, that parents and homeschoolers could come, you know, and I’m not sure we’re necessarily, you know, that that’s gonna that’s not to say that certain certain dynamics of our future vision couldn’t be used in that way, you know, but Uh initially we’re not gonna necessarily have a big building, you know, that people can necessarily come to and, you know, you know, spend the day learning about. one particular thing, but that’s you know, that is a part of that that evolving, if you will, vision as we, you know, could be a potential

Justin:

Sorry.

Mark:

No, that’s okay.

Justin:

That could be a potential other leg is this educational piece.

Mark:

Yes. And I think, you know, I ideally from as you shared, based on who Chris and I are, our desire is to focus on healthy marriages because that creates healthy families. You know, so as we think about it, you know, it’s not that You know, and I and I think there’s something to be said for. It’s not just about going away as a couple, you know, and being able to get along. you know, when we’re away from all the pressures of life, you know, cause we have to learn how to deal with that in that setting

Justin:

That’s where the educational component comes in a little bit too, right?

Mark:

Even for you know, especially for couples. Yeah you know, to be able to say, Okay, yeah It’s nice to be able to get away, but what do we notice what do we notice other than our kids aren’t around us, you know, when we’re away, and then how do we take some of this, you know, back? And, you know, or even how do we at times certain times of the year have our kids with us in such a way that says, yeah, we enjoy being a family.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And and we’re not just because I think so often It can be about, you know, the male goes to work and the wife may take care of the kids and you know, and I think in so c so so many cases that’s what leads to that you know, empty nest type dynamic of separation where we’ve just both kind of lived our own lives. You know, we’ve been shared childcare, if you will. Yeah. And suddenly we have s there’s so many limiting factors when the kids go away that you know, there’s less connectivity.

Justin:

You like switch from a couple to, like you said, shared child care and then that gets removed from you and that’s all you had. Exactly. After so many years

Mark:

we lost the relationship.

Justin:

Yeah. identity shifted to that. And then once that’s removed your identity, yeah, from

Mark:

exactly. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. So yeah, just again summarizing a little bit, um so bringing those those kind of passions together into a single entity called Sparrow’s Rest, where it involves some homesteading, some educational aspects, maybe about that. I I think education kind of would be sprinkled throughout the the idea, right? Whether it’s helping couples learn how to Um I I like what you’re saying. It’s like it’s not just a place for couples to come honeymoon or go whatever, it’s a place for couples to come and uh basically grow a little bit in a healthy and safe and and inviting place Um and it yeah, so sprinkling all these different passions together into this magical potion called Sparrow ‘s Rest where there’s homesteading, there’s outdoor stuff, kind of that wild at heart opportunities there uh for for men and women to kind of get out into nature and do some stuff and

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um

Mark:

and I and if I even as I’m hearing myself and you and I talking so forth, you know, ultimately I think, you know, sparrows rest comes out of um well it it came out of a couple different things. Um definitely some discussions with our kids and each other. But um in the in the first Continental Congress type thing, they were having a difficult time um getting things to They get they w to find agreement.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And, you know, and Benjamin Franklin basically has this point where, you know, he comes to and he basically says, you know, gentlemen, you know basically can an empire rise or fall, but what you know, God doesn’t know about it for he cares about the sparrow, you know, and if this is what we’re doing Does he not care about this in such a way that we should come before him in prayer? You know, should we not you know, if this is what we’re looking to do, should we not come before God and really seek what he has for us through prayer. And that actually began uh the process of opening, you know, government proceedings or Congress. with prayer and you know that process of, you know, in God we trust if you will, you know, but yet that was a part where the sparrow came to mind, you know, from a scriptural dynamic. you know, because God does care, you know, for the sparrow and how much more does he care for us in that process? So and then being able to recognize that, you know God cares about us. He cares about having rest for us. He sees, you know, the fact that we’re not he doesn’t want us to be hurried and and stressed. You know, not that we can’t carry some load or deal with some stress, don’t get me wrong there, but You know, he doesn’t want that from my perspective to be our lifestyle.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That we’re just continually running from here to there to here to there. you know, to this to soccer practice, to work, to, you know, that kind of thing. Not that there’s anything wrong with those things. Um, but I think for the here again, kind of coming back from a hierarchical standpoint. For me, and I think Chris even as well, you know, creation is is is part of what, you know helps us reflect on who God is.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, that process of each day has a new beginning, you know, and you know, and his grace and mercies are new every day. You know, that kind of thing. So that’s kind of the hierarchy. And then, you know, where Chris and I are concerned, our passion is definitely for marriages. You know, and and families. That’s that’s what created, I think I’ve shared that before, you know, that early vision, you know, at a at a leadership conference that we went to, you know, that’s what really created our early, you know, vision for what we desire and how we desire to be impacting people. And that’s that’s what’s continued in this process of, you know our ability to work with marriages at generations even to the point of, you know, you know, marriage on the rock. Just yeah. Just that passion. So that would that would be the secondary point. And I think, you know The homesteading is more about who who God has created us to be. You know, not in a comparative way, not that everybody has to do this, but it’s just kind of our way to uh walk with God and what w w I would define as, you know, just our obedience to being who He would have us to be. You know, it’s it was funny ’cause last uh yeah, I guess it’s been two weeks now, you know. Uh I admit that my my beard so many people as you it was funny you bring up because so many people from back where I grew up in Windfall didn’t recognize me.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And you know, I if I heard what is this, you know, as people are pulling on their chin, you know, visually, what’s this? Either pulling on my chin or kind of Yeah. Pulling on the if I’ve if I heard that once, I heard it, you know, a hundred times. You know, just based on that. And for me, uh you know

Justin:

beards in Windfall or what?

Mark:

Well, the I didn’t have a beard, so therefore I wasn’t who, you know, in it, but For me, if you will, if I’m if I’m just if I’m just in my uh uh calm frame of mind, you know, I’m not looking to be sarcastic. I’m not looking to say, you know I haven’t heard that before. Yeah. You know, or anything. You know, I’ll say I’m just celebrating my God given uniqueness.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, because for me that’s what it’s about. It’s just being able to say, okay, yeah, I happen to be a guy that can grow a beard and it’s part of who God created me to be. So I’m celebrating that. Yeah. And I think that’s what, you know, Sparrow’s Rest is, is our ability, Chris’s and my ability. to celebrate, to walk in, to live in that celebrated uniqueness that he’s called us to be. And so that’s that’s kind of That’s kind of where it comes from from my perspective as far as the homesteading. And and granted, we’ve learned a lot. And by all means, you know, it’s not that I’m you know, I suppose depending on that continuum as we talk about it, you know, I’m not a conspiracy theorist, you know, that kind of thing, but I’ve been more aware of how circumstances have changed, you know, in the process of history. You know, how, you know As as as government has become more involved in food and those kind of things and there is this, you know, scarcity, if you will, or even even what germs? you know, how because the early on we have pasture and here again I’m gonna make this short, but you know there was two different

Justin:

blue eat pasture

Mark:

yes you know in that in that process of pasteurization for milk Okay. There was two I forget the other guy’s name, but there was two, you know, theories, if you will, that basically saw either germs and bacteria as part of a healthy balance. to where bacteria is good. We have digestive enzymes, that kind of thing, you know, in our bodies, to where when I take an antibiotic it’s good for me to, you know, have yogurt or something to rebuild that so that my, you know, my body can have these digestive enzymes that are working. Because if all those bugs that are in my body are dead, my body doesn’t work properly. You follow me? That kind of thing. So there were two schools and pastures school one out. that basically said, hey, you know, we’re gonna kill all these germs because germs are the bad thing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Whether there was a whole other school that basically says no, germs aren’t the bad thing germs out of balance is the bad thing. So we can keep this this homeostasis, this balance if you will, it’s actually healthy. And, you know, even like milk, for example, you know, it has in its whole sense, it has enzymes that help, you know, break down fats, break down, you know, different things that help us to where some people who actually drink whole milk find themselves being who once were lactose intolerant, they drink whole milk. And they recognize that their lactose intolerance goes away because those enzyme enzymes are in milk that help break those fat particles down that get killed in the pasteurization process.

Justin:

Interesting. Yeah

Mark:

So you know, there’s just and

Justin:

all these little pockets of information to learn, right? Like that kind of

Mark:

historically there’s a reason why it makes sense but we’ve lost that awareness over time of where it comes from. And so we’re continuing to do something that may not be as beneficial. as we think of it when we’re recognizing how many dietary issues and food allergies there are, you know, in our you s y you think about it that way. So yeah.

Justin:

Well, it makes me think of the two m Mary Ellen ‘s

Mark:

Mary Beth and Mary. Sure.

Justin:

But yeah, they both kind of touched on almost um the same ideas in different directions where uh Mary Ellen talked a lot about food and and meat and that kind of thing kind of uh and then Mary Beth talked a lot about the the offenses right that you put in your body and so like what different um lotions for example is one thing she talked about. But yeah, just like there’s It’s it’s there’s so much that we don’t think about on a regular basis because we just go with the status quo.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

We use the shampoo at Walmart and we, you know, eat what you know, McDonald’s and, you know, it’s just our life. So it’s kinda cool to kinda hear these different perspectives that basically are saying like, hey, this kind of status quo is messed up in a lot of ways. And it’s like, well, of course it makes sense, you know obesity is at a all time high, I think worldwide. Depression is as well. Like it it makes sense that you could go, well I guess yeah, the system might be broken in some ways because some things are worse than they were Um, you know, uh you could also say some things are better. I think one of the things we talked about um in I think Mary Ellen’s episode, maybe. was just the fact that uh worldwide hunger is at an all time low, right? So there’s trade off to this this, you know, we’re not meant to be shipping crates of food across the planet. And yet you know, worldwide hunger is at an all time low as a result of this mechanization and

Mark:

sure.

Justin:

You know, so there’s some trade-offs. But anyway, I just I think it’s very Interesting to hear about some of those pockets of information. Like what you’re just describing with milk, you know, and Allow me to rethink some things, open my brain again to going, huh, interesting. Whole milk, you know, fresh pasteurized. Like I wonder if I can get that somewhere around here, that kind of thing, and kind of thinking through that. Um, I always think I think that’s always a good thing, um, to kind of rethink some of the status quo and not just accept it as being, well, this is the way it’s supposed to be. And So that there’s probably some elements of that in Sparrow’s Rest of kind of education, but

Mark:

Yeah, and I think

Justin:

or is that more just influence Personally.

Mark:

Yeah, I think that I see that and and here again, this may be an area where Chris and I differ. It’s not uh that someone who would come you know, would be indoctrinated into this, you know, homes that’s not our desire.

Justin:

Well if the way you would set it up though, you could probably have two different kinds of events, right?

Mark:

Is that

Justin:

fair?

Mark:

Yeah, I and I I’m Here again, yeah. For me personally, that’s not necessarily my passion. I mean, uh I’m happy to have the conversations kind of like you are now of somebody saying, well Why do you do this or what’s that for? Or, you know, I have no issues kind of being able to, you know, have those conversations in a way that is, you know, educational. But it’s not that I think everybody has to do what we’re doing. Yeah. You know, and I I’m not, I don’t I don’t see us in any ways as, you know as a model of what has to be of what other people have to do. I just I just don’t, you know, I think like I shared, it’s about us doing what we feel we’re led to do. based on our God given, you know, desires and so forth. And

Justin:

Yeah, it makes sense. So this yeah. This sparrow’s rest gives you an opportunity to practice those things on a bigger scale in some degrees, but not necessarily as it’s part of the creed or whatever. That’s kind of what you would say.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Um

Mark:

ultimately it it is about, you know, creating more health for marriages and family. That’s

Justin:

Yeah, and you wouldn’t want that to get in the way of that. Essentially, is that what I’m saying?

Mark:

And I and I would dare say, you know, okay, healthy marriages, healthy, healthy physically, healthy emotionally, healthy spiritually, you know, healthy, you know. mentally you know those okay so then some of these other aspects come into play Is is how I would see that. What is what does it take, you know, to create, you know, healthy spirituality, you know, first and foremost? Because, you know, I think And here again, you know, I think culturally, you know, in a lot of cases we we do marry less because marriage has become, you know, more of a civil state, you know, when we think about license you know, a marriage license while we think about it as just being uh a uh that, you know, but we when we really stop and think about it God ordained or d designed marriage. So, you know, these other things are just ways that we have redefined God’s marriage. The fact you know you need a license or, you know, that kind of thing But ultimately, you know, God is the one who designed marriage to be what it is, you know, in that process of, you know, a man and a woman, you know, and so therefore You know, if it’s something different than that, then where God’s concerned, from my perspective, it’s not necessarily a marriage. You can call it a whatever you want to call it. But that’s kind of how I see it from that fundamental standpoint. So and then being able to build that recognizing that’s a spiritual dynamic. you know, as well as it is, you know, having, you know, healthy physical relationship, healthy, you know, emotional relationship and just being able to grow those kind of things, you know, much like we talked about, you know, sometimes Well, with like we talked about in last week’s episode, you know, that I sometimes I take myself too seriously. Sometimes it’s a pride issue and and marriage in itself, and as as you’ve shared before in your relationship to Megan You know, marriage is a pride challenging entity.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know.

Justin:

Yeah, for sure.

Mark:

So yeah.

Justin:

If you’re doing it right

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. If you’re doing it God’s way. Yeah. But if if marriage is desi if you think marriage is something that’s designed to get you your way, you know, you’re gravely mistaken. And so

Justin:

Yeah. And so right now, um, can you briefly describe the state it’s in and like

Mark:

Yeah, sure. Um Right now, um we have officially, you know, uh rebuilt the farmhouse and put in it.

Justin:

The the farmhouse was very small and very old. So it’s parts of it, yeah. So this when you got this property, I mean it was instantly you know, work, a fixer upper kind of situation, right? So let’s just start there and say

Mark:

What what drew us to this property was its l its setting? It was previously, you know, a farm that time and the the the interesting part another you know not tipping our hat to the uh the name is part of the property was owned by a person uh by the name of Chris would correct me if I was wrong, but Mary Sparrow Lane. So you know it was they owned a part of this property. So, you know, that sparrow’s rest kind of comes into play again. Um, but being able to recognize that As we w we were talking, we just felt a a sense about when we went to look at this property and we recognized at that time, you know, to purchase you know, a certain amount of acreage, you know, in North Carolina, a lot of acreage is, you know, timber or, you know, pine trees you have to You know, and and this this property just seemed to be, you know, saying, okay, yeah, I’ve I’m already developed to a certain degree. and that was that was neat to us, you know, it’s like, okay. And so there was a farmhouse. There is a there is a horse barn. The horse barn unfortunately is kinda, you know, seen its better day. So that will probably be going its own way. But the parts of the house had seen its better day as well.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So we did take the part that was built in the nineteen seventies when they put water and, you know, septic in. We took that part off. But then there was the the part that was

Justin:

Ironically, the part that saw better days was the part that was newer.

Mark:

Yes, that’s true. That’s true. The older part had, you know, a solid beam around it. We were able to, you know, at at the foundation, it was put up on piers and those peers had you know, the termites had gotten to them and so forth. But so we ended up just picking up that older section of house and putting a new foundation underneath that. And then building on a a new

Justin:

new part.

Mark:

A new part. That’s exactly right. So all of that Uh well, most all of that is actually complete at this point. I still got a few trims, you know, to put in place and so forth, but This is this is the most finished a house has ever been that Chris and I have moved into together. I’ll just say that. So yeah, it is. It is nice in comparison. Um So yeah, that’s where we’re at. We have a certificate of occupancy, you know, to be able to, you know, reside there. And, you know, we’ve been able to move the chickens out and our desire is to go. Yeah. So

Justin:

we’re out there now.

Mark:

Yep, they’re out there now. So we’re not, you know, running back and forth feeding chickens in Southport, you know, F three mornings and yeah, you know, that kind of thing. So everyb everything’s out there. Nice. And so now, you know, our next phase is going to be, you know, kind of building on, you know, the storage sheds and so forth to be able to have a garage, if you will, to work out of. And then continuing this process. Our desire would be to and we’re we’re, you know, currently praying about it, talking with a guy about uh digging a pond for us on the property. So the pond would, you know, provide a opportunity to have, you know, smaller, you know, like m like tiny home type dynamics, mobile tiny homes. around this pond to be able to, you know, create an environment where couples can come, you know, some of them from families, you know, that kind of thing. And the pond can be a source of recreation from fishing to kayaking, you know, that kind of thing in this process that’s on the property as we’re doing. life the way we see it, you know, that kind of thing. So that’s that’s what that’s where it goes. And then ultimately being able to, you know, probably our our goal would be able to be able to do you know, a bigger venue, you know, where we can have, you know, marriage retreats. Because right now, you know, if we were to do a marriage retreat, it’d be pretty well limited to around a bonfire.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, that kind of thing. But ultimately to be able to have places where couples can stay. And granted, you know, we have a a couple of bedrooms in the part remodeled to where it may just kind of be individual. type stuff at the beginning, you know, and and but just kinda I guess my prayer is basically that, you know, God would bring the people and the resources that we need, because I recognize this whole vision is bigger than we are, and you know that God would bring the people and the resources at the times that we need ’em to be able to help us fulfill his vision. That he that he offers the provision for the vision.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

As as we’re we’re trying to walk it through from an obedience standpoint.

Justin:

And so far it’s been pretty Cool provision wise. I mean I know when you got the property it was a certain thing.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And then there was an opportunity to come to kind of make that a different thing by purchasing some more property. Isn’t isn’t that where the pond would be now?

Mark:

Yes, that would be where the pond would be. Yeah. Initially there was a um right-of-way that went through our property. Which was concerning ’cause it would come right through our front yard. But um by God’s grace, um the individual that owned that piece of property came to us and said, Hey, I’m looking to sell this. Would you be interested? And you know, through uh through definitely some uh some uh discussions between Chris and I, we have uh we agreed to purchase that piece of property. in such a way that says, okay, yeah, this is where the pond can go and you know it does a it did away with the right away. Now we just have to get a get a way back to that which we’re talking with an individual about to be able to get access back to that area. But part of building that pond would be, you know, clearing that the brush and everything else and selling dirt and those kind of things. So

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, it it’s just cool to I mean, uh just thinking about this kind of retreat center that’s kind of off almost in the middle of nowhere and you kinda have nature and all that and then, you know, someone decides to put uh you know, purchase that property that had the right of way and put a road right through your property and and then uh, you know, a hundred home little subcommunity back there. It kinda hampered the vision of No, no doubt. It would change the flavor. So I thought that was really cool that you guys were able to work that out and kind of solidify uh the vision and future a little bit more. So I I just I like I looking at it from my perspective kind of cool to see the progressions that it’s taken even sure you know it’s like Um watching you, you know, kind of tear down that first part and the process there.

Mark:

You even helping. Yeah. You weren’t just watching. You were helping.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um, but kind of seeing that the teardown part went pretty quick and then you know, you building back up and fixing that foundation, just all the things you had to do, it’s like Man, this this seems like it’s take forever and now it’s done. You know, and it’s it’s that’s kinda how time works. So it’s kinda cool to see what’s been accomplished so far towards that vision and again this extra acreage really I feel like solidify some of that vision that you guys had even more. Mm. Wouldn’t you say in the sense that

Mark:

Yeah, it’s it’s been neat to see how God’s provided all along the way, you know, in that process for us. ‘Cause like you say, we’re we’re you know the We’re just normal people like everybody else, you know. But yet God cares about those things. And I th you know, um, Mark Batterson, I believe it is, he probably didn’t originate saying, but you know. Um It’s about I lost it for a moment, but the um bold prayers honor God and God honors bold prayers. prayers. You know, and that’s and that’s kind of what this whole process has been about, you know, that ability to recognize, okay, yeah, this is this is far bigger than us. And I’m okay with that. Mm-hmm. You know, because, you know, God has that ability. And, you know, even even the the Pond guy, you know, that was that was kind of a you know a friend of a friend uh you know, a guy I contacted and, you know, and you know, it just It’s just God’s kind of going before us. He’s, you know, a Christian individual, that kind of thing. And so, you know, we’ve had that conversation. Are you a Christian? It’s like Yeah, I’m a Christian. He said , I can tell, you know, and it’s like, okay, so this, you know. So yeah, that’s that’s just kind of God’s God’s going before us as I see it, as Chris sees it, you know. And And just trying to walk in obedience. And it’s not something, I guess, you know, it’s it’s another one of those things that basically um somebody spoke with me at the beginning, you know, it’s like We uh we tend to overestimate what we can do in a year, but we underestimate what can be done in five years. And, you know, as we’re coming into year three, maybe four, uh I think it’s year three, you know, to actually be there. You know, it’s kind of cool. You know, granted, granted, it’s taken three years to get there.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But at the same time, yeah, it’s just that’s it’s becoming home to us, you know, that kind of thing. And just be able to

Justin:

Yeah, and being able to do that in three years while you’re still doing counseling, you know, and construction on the side. Like you guys got a lot going on, you you and Chris do. uh marriage and family coun uh uh marriage uh on the rock, which is uh church ministry that you guys are pretty involved with and you guys both are involved a lot with us at Celebrate Cover. Like you know, so that three years is significant to me looking at it based on just all the things that you also were accomplishing in that time so it’s kind of cool to see yeah see that but

Mark:

it’s nice to have people on the outside looking in.

Justin:

Yeah it’s a good thing.

Mark:

You know, because they just haven’t seen it. Yeah. And it really does offer encouragement, you know, to Chris and I in that process. It’s like, is this is this ever gonna get done? You know, that kind of thing when you’re, you know, you’re just grinding away at it.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But yeah, so it’s so often it’s so neat and refreshing to have other people that come in and say, oh, when I was here last, this was just blah, blah, blah. You know, and now

Justin:

But now you’re anchored in in the sense that you’re living there. And that’s that’s a huge milestone. And of course, uh I totally empathize with what you’re saying about the next step is now I gotta have some place to work out of to even build these things and so That’s kind of the next step is you being able to work out of something and the horsepower is more likely to fall on you than anything. Yeah. Can’t be that.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Uh yeah, and I I’m a like a big I’m I don’t know what the word is. I would say selfishly motivated. No, not selfish. I’m I’m just excited about you guys. I want to talk about it because I think it’s a cool endeavor and I’m a hundred percent on board. in whatever way I c you know, can be in I want, you know, everyone to be aware of it. And eventually that’s gonna be a key component to this thing being successful is, you know, publicity and communication and marketing and all that kind of stuff. Sure. Um But you know, we’re y we’re a bit out from that. There’s no place to go yet. There’s nothing you know, it’s not built yet. It’s

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But Um I think it’s cool to kind of talk about that vision and

Mark:

I appreciate that, like you say, in that in that process because it’s not something I’ll routinely talk about with people, you know, and it’s good to be able when Chris and I, you know, talk about it it or you we talk about with other people, it is it is fun to be able to do that in such a way that helps us solidify you know that process or even, you know amend yeah you know certain ideas but you know so each conversation is definitely beneficial yeah but it’s just neat to see how okay you know

Justin:

Well it’s cool too ’cause you guys have this vision, this idea, but it’s you’re also holding it pretty loosely in a sense of saying, like, let’s figure out what it’s gonna be while try while think while determining what it’s gonna be and kinda like have this flexibility. So some of the the vision and desire like even the communic uh uh educational piece like that may or may not right be a big component in you know like I I think it’s kinda cool to to hear that at some point obviously the focus will have to be very specific and you’ll you’ll know exactly what’s and what sh the marriage And your retreat is probably the highest thing to be able to have little like uh use of tiny homes. But like I mean Megan, we’ve gone to these little tiny home like I I don’t know , village sounds wrong, but it’s like this kind of circle around, you know, a little pond and it’s like all these little tiny homes.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And that’s just such a unique Fun little thing to do. It’s yeah.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Um so just like that having something like that. even the beginnings of one. Maybe there’s just one tiny home that, you know, you can start to

Mark:

it might even be a part of our tiny home.

Justin:

Yeah. That’s right. That’s right. Uh

Mark:

yeah.

Justin:

But yeah, it’s really cool to see that and I’m excited about seeing that. And But ultimately, you know, that vision will have to get tighter and tighter the more the closer you get to to imp um execution on it

Mark:

And I think I think we’re seeing that as we’re preying on it, you know, that kind of thing and got, you know, and doors are opening, you know, but I think, you know, so often, and I think it’s more intentional probably even on Chris’s part you know, is the aspect of yeah, it’s not about, you know, doing something someday.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, it’s it’s it’s about continuing in the the little things that God’s given us right now, you know, to the point of, you know, Chris’s, you know, desires to routinely be, you know, connecting with one or more couple, you know, every week, you know, in some way that’s basically you know, connecting in some way to share or, you know, invite people out or, you know, intentionally connecting. And I’m all about that as well You know, but just just building those relationships ’cause there’s something about, you know, sitting around a circle as you’ve as we talked about before, but you know, especially if uh there can be a bonfire in the middle of that circle.

Justin:

That’s the perfect circle.

Mark:

Yeah, so that’s that’s that’s kind of what we’re doing in uh yeah our desire. So yeah.

Justin:

I imagine some of the earliest circles. We’re around the bottom. There you go.

Mark:

There you go. Well, we even uh we know that uh Jesus built that little charcoal fire and they ate breakfast over it, you know, when he uh restored Peter, that kind of thing. You know

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And uh so yeah, it was just that’s so yeah, appreciate the opportunity to kind of share and uh yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s it’s cool you know, you mentioned Chris and uh she’s kinda actively thinking about today where I I think part of that balance is your your job is no to the grindstone like every day. you know, it like this building this house. It’s it’s gonna be three years. And so that’s what I’m about. And that’s and I’m I’m gonna let you take care of the visioning while I take care of the uh you know putting that nail in or whatever.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Kind of seeing that combination of you two and um it’s really cool. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah there’s there’s um there’s just no way I could do this without Chris.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I mean that’s you know, it’s just um we are that different.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But yeah, you know, um each part is so valuable and just like you say. We can laugh one another, you know, at what our differences to a certain degree. When, you know, it’s like, well, what about this and what about this? And it’s like, yeah, we’ll we’ll get to that. We’re just gonna do this. But I appreciate you bringing these other things up too ’cause I hadn’t maybe thought about that part. Yeah. You know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But yeah, you know, I appreciate you bringing that up. But how

Justin:

important that yeah partnership is in the sense of uh her forcing your head up once in a while to look at where you’re walk you’re heading. Is it heading where we’re heading?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And if not, let’s let’s adjust course and and you to go, I don’t want to pick my head up. I gotta get this nail put in, but going Oh, you’re right. I do need to shift a little bit and like seeing that. That’s that’s really cool.

Mark:

Yeah. And it’s and it’s been fun, you know, because even and I’m I’m excited to in the process of actually being out there, you know, because it is a fulfillment.

Justin:

Yeah. In a lot of

Mark:

in a lot of ways. And yet, you know

Justin:

milestone.

Mark:

Yeah. And I remember, you know, like last year we, you know did more with the garden, you know, but it just not being there is just so tough yep to maintain a garden.

Justin:

The scale of a garden you guys chose to build too. It’s like yeah, I c I can imagine not being there to kinda babysit it would be Quite a challenge. I mean it’d be one thing if you m had this little corner.

Mark:

Yeah. No, I hear you there. So yeah, that’s that’s that’s where we’re at. That’s exciting. In that process. So yeah, one thing that’s a good thing.

Justin:

So we’ll definitely do a part Two.

Mark:

Yeah, we gotta bring Chris in

Justin:

this out here.

Mark:

Yep, I would too.

Justin:

Uh and get her vision and her heart in into into it. Because again, to me I guess why I said selfishly motivated is I really want you guys. I want the vision to continue to grow and be be heard by more people and and uh eventually for people to have an opportunity to partner into it, you know. Oh

Mark:

yeah. Uh

Justin:

obviously there’s not well there’s opportunity right now in the sense that you can go hang out with Mark and Chris around a bonfire and or Help them tear down a horse barn or you know, you know a guy who knows a guy who can help with a pot or whatever, you know, those like uh there’s definitely ways to contribute. Um So I think even that’s a win, but

Mark:

just even in the relationship

Justin:

of even kind of setting up um potential future opportunities for partnering, I think is

Mark:

cool. And that’s where you come into play, Justin. You’re you’re one of those people that can, you know.

Justin:

Well, I’m I’m trying to do my part.

Mark:

I know. I see it. Yeah I see it. That’s part of that That’s part of who you are. And you know, yeah, to where, like you say, at this point I probably wouldn’t even necessarily have had the conversation.

Justin:

That’s right. I forced it out of you. Well, so just to tip our hand a little bit, part of that is we have some potential guests, right? That kind of fall into this homesteading side of things and I thought, you know, it’d be a really interesting to kind of s set up.

Mark:

Yeah, that’s a great point.

Justin:

You know why some of these things are matter to us. Even Mary Beth and Mary Ellen, like some of those conversations it’s this you can see how it kinda connects now and can kinda start connecting the dots and I think that’s cool and yeah. Um I wouldn’t mind if how I see it becomes sparrows rest focused at some point like that. That would be cool. Whatever that looks like. But uh

Mark:

And it was uh just an FYI. Um one of the conferences you mentioned, we did attend with Jeff and Mary Beth. Nice they have since moved from this area and they have their own little farmat, you know, out um where ‘s where’s your um

Justin:

yeah Kellyan uh

Mark:

it’s I it’s a two-part name and has a college named after it.

Justin:

Yep, correct. And there’s a uh hospital? Wakeforce. Wakeforce, yes.

Mark:

They live outside of Wake Forest. They uh it’s uh it’s they live in a little town called Walnut. Cove. Not walnut grove, but it makes me it makes me think of a little house on a prairie type thing. But yeah, so they’re they’re doing well there. We attended a conference with them and yeah, she’s doing well and yeah.

Justin:

Awesome.

Mark:

Awesome. It’s fun to fun to be.

Justin:

Well thank you so much, Mark, for I know again, that’s not this isn’t naturally what you would at this state this stage the something that you would want to present, but I Appreciate your

Mark:

Yeah, and I and I I agree with you in that process of yeah, there’s probably gonna be some conversations that won’t necessarily seem or some topics that won’t necessarily seem so far out there.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

If you understand a little bit more of Cut the context. So yeah. Thank you for the opportunity, Justin, as always.

Justin:

Thank you, Mark.

Mark:

Yeah. That’s how we see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howisyit dot click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot click Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.