Today, we discuss the concept of spiritual balance and the duality of good and evil. Mark reflects on a recent sermon about the authority of Jesus and the limitations of seeking balance from a cosmic perspective. They emphasize the importance of faith and trust in our higher power, even when answers are not fully comprehensible. We explore some theological concepts and challenges of understanding good and evil and highlight the significance of seeking the kingdom of heaven vs trying to create heaven on earth.

Transcript

Mark
Thought I lost my apples for a moment.

Justin
Your marbles or your apples?

Mark
I like them apples.

Justin
It’s been a good long while since I seen goodwill hunting.

Mark
Oh, yeah?

Justin
You know, that’s what that quotes from?

Mark
Well, I think it came a long time before oh.

Justin
Really? I’d never heard it before. That. But I make sense.

Mark
Yeah.

Justin
They didn’t just make.

Mark
That up for that movie.

Justin
To me, they did.

Mark
Because I understand the boys from Boston what do they call them? The Easties? No, southeast. Southeast from Boston. Southeast.

Justin
You like them apples?

Mark
Yeah. Damn apples. Damn apples. Yeah. You got to put that in there. Yeah. Nice. But yes, it’s always a good it’s good to see you, Justin.

Justin
Speaking of apples.

Mark
How about them?

Justin
See you, Mark.

Mark
Well, thank you. Yeah. Ah.

{Music}

Mark
Welcome to how I see it with me, Mark Pratt

Justin
and Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations

Mark
What are we talking about?

Justin
What are we talking about? Well, you know, I know what we’re talking about but I’m waiting for you to

Mark
Well, you know, do you? I could, I thought for a moment.

Justin
Think I know yeah, yeah

Mark
I was, you know, some of most of these topics, I’d say probably come out of a aha moment of some type. You know, realistic. Yeah, because I think, you know, we live our lives

Justin
Because I think we live our lives and I think at times,

Mark
and I think at times, you know,

Justin
we can fall into a complacency when we’re just doing the daily buying day after day

Mark
we can fall into a complacency when we’re just doing the daily grind day after day and that kind of thing.

Justin
and that kind of thing.

Mark
And it was just, it was interesting for me

Justin
It was interesting for me because I heard a sermon this weekend,

Mark
’cause we actually, I heard a sermon this weekend and it was just, it was a moment of conviction for me.

Justin
and it was just a moment of conviction for me.

Mark
And it got me to thinking about spirituality

Justin
And it got me to thinking about spirituality. Because I think our culture, you know, and myself, you know, we tend to see a lot around us this aspect of coexist.

Mark
because I think our culture, and myself, we tend to see it a lot around us, this aspect of coexist, the yin and the yang,

Justin
You know, the yin and the yang, you know, that there’s this spiritual dynamic of good and evil that’s always in balance.

Mark
that there’s this spiritual dynamic of good and evil that’s always in balance, this aspect

Justin
you know there’s aspect of what we might call dualism you know I mean where

Mark
of what we might call dualism. I mean, where there’s two equal parts

Justin
there’s two equal parts and they’re just lying against one. Just the eternal

Mark
and they’re just vying against one another, but yeah.

Justin
struggle of good and evil and it’s in every movie basically. Yes and well

Mark
But it, yes, and I think, yes,

Justin
Disney movie anyway. Yes and I have to admit I think in some ways even and it

Mark
and I have to admit, I think in some ways, and it made me think about some of the discussions we’ve had,

Justin
made me think about some of the discussions we’ve had, even in the concept of the stick,

Mark
even in the concept of the stick,

Justin
you know, that there’s this aspect of dualism where one is opposed to the other, but yet

Mark
that there’s this aspect of dualism where one is opposed to the other, but yet they complete each other

Justin
they complete each other in some kind of harmonious way. You follow me? And that’s not a judgment

Mark
in some kind of harmonious way. You follow me? And that’s not a judgment on that model.

Justin
that mom. Wait, you’re supposed to say no offense.

Mark
~ Wait, you’re supposed to say no offense.

Justin
How friends take it, Mark.

Mark
(laughing) – But it, it,

Justin
I’m going to get my stick out.

Mark
(laughing) you got offended,

Justin
I was waiting for it.

Mark
I didn’t even have to say no offense. See, that’s why I say it. – That was me. (laughing)

Justin
Who’s kidding? I’m learning.

Mark
~ I’m learning, I’m working on it.

Justin
I’m working.

Mark
But I think, you know, I was just reminded

Justin
I was just reminded of how our desire for balance and just this dualistic mindset that

Mark
of how our desire for balance and, you know, just this dualistic mindset that, you know, everything has an equal and opposite.

Justin
everything has an equal and opposite.

Mark
I was made aware that I’m not, I’m not, I’m not, I have been maybe misled.

Justin
I was made aware that I’m not, I’m not, I’m not, I have been maybe misled. And I don’t want, and I, and I, when I’m thinking about misled, I’m thinking

Mark
And I don’t want, and I, and I, when I’m thinking about misled, I’m thinking about the fact that

Justin
about the fact that I talked with others and I’m, I take that very seriously.

Mark
I talk with others. And I’m, I take that very seriously when it, when I think about the fact that I don’t want,

Justin
When it, when I think about the fact that I don’t want, if I’ve been deceived,

Mark
if I’ve been deceived, I don’t want to pass that deception on to other people.

Justin
I don’t want to pass that deception on to other people. You following?

Mark
You follow me?

Justin
Yeah. That’s where my conviction, that’s where the weight is, you know, of even what we do here, you know, is kind of convicting.

Mark
That’s, that’s where my conviction. were the weight, if you will, of even what we do here, you know, is kind of convicting. And so it got me thinking about that from that aspect. And it was interesting to recognize,

Justin
Yeah. And so it got me thinking about that from that aspect. And it was interesting to recognize for me out in the process of this sermon, it was interesting to recognize that.

Mark
for me, in the process of this sermon, it was interesting to recognize that from my new perspective, there really isn’t this dualism in place.

Justin
From my new perspective, there really isn’t this dualism in place.

Mark
Because what?

Justin
Was it three instead maybe four four is them?

Mark
No, I don’t think they’re I don’t think they’re balanced

Justin
I don’t think they’re balanced. Yeah

Mark
And I and I it was interesting because as I was thinking reading about it, you know, and it

Justin
I was a bad dad joke. Sorry.

Mark
Sorry, I guess in the in the process of my desire to share my perspective. I’m a little more focused so I apologize

Justin
Yeah, you’re swimming a little deeper than I was. That’s my fault. I’m sorry. I’m coming. I’m coming. Let me get some breath.

Mark
Don’t you even worry about it. It is good

Justin
It’s true we would worry about it. It is good.

Mark
But if they made me think about it and it was a refreshing thing to think about actually when I was in the process of the sermon

Justin
But if it made me think about it, and it was a refreshing thing to think about actually when I was in the process of the Semab’s Listening, we’re talking about how Jesus had gone through the tombs where Legion and I think it’s Matthew.

Mark
I was listening. We’re talking about how Jesus had Gone to the through the tombs where Legion or and I think it’s Matthew Yeah

Justin
It’s probably in multiple. Well Matthew has two men, okay

Mark
Well Matthew has two men

Justin
But either way, it’s just interesting. It’s it’s both right before the he casts Jesus casts these

Mark
Where there’s two men and you know, but either way, it’s just interesting It’s it’s both right before the he casts Jesus casts these spirits out of these gentlemen into the pigs

Justin
Spirits out of these gentlemen into the pigs. Yeah

Mark
You you familiar with that one? Yeah

Justin
Yeah, I didn’t think it was gentle men. I thought it was one guy

Mark
Yeah

Justin
Well Legion is one, but what it what it then this was what the sermon was about

Mark
Well legion is one, but what it what it then this was what the sermon was about it’s basically

Justin
It’s basically there’s two there’s two separate stories. Okay in scripture. Yeah

Mark
There’s two there’s two separate stories in Scripture. Okay, and one

Justin
But the pigs that only came out of Legion, right? No, there is another aspect where there were two guys

Mark
No, there is another aspect where there were two guys and

Justin
and

Mark
And I want to say it was Matthew. I apologize. I didn’t I should have prepared a little as usual

Justin
once they just map their apologies, I didn’t I should have prepared as usual as usual as

Mark
I should have prepared but what they basically come up and say, you know to Jesus. They’re basically saying

Justin
What they basically come up and say you know to Jesus. They’re basically saying

Mark
Hey, we know who you are

Justin
Hey We know who you are you we know that there’s gonna come a day

Mark
We know that there’s going to come a day when your authority is going to completely do away with evil.

Justin
When there’s your authority is gonna completely do away with evil and and now that was really kind of what struck me because

Mark
And that was really kind of what struck me because that does away with that dualistic perspective from my dynamic.

Justin
That does away with that dualistic perspective from my Dynamic I think it’s been freeing to be able to recognize that we’re not just kind of

Mark
think it’s been freeing for me to be able to recognize that we’re not just kind of you know this this balance that you eke out a little bit of yes yes

Justin
You know, yeah Yeah, it’s not like this battle where oh we took that town and it’s like oh they took it back and like this kind of You know Never ending battle of good and evil and some days evil is winning some days good as winning and that whole thing The fronts are moving every day and you’re always checking in like are we winning today or we losing today that that kind of idea, right?

Mark
and you’re always checking in, like, are we winning today? – Yes. – That kind of idea, right?

Justin
Yeah, it’s very much so. That kind of idea. And I think that’s what I desire to offer people that I talk with.

Mark
~ Yes, very much so. That kind of idea. And it was, and I think that’s what I desire, you know, to offer people that I talk with.

Justin
And I do, I think what I, part of my job, I wrestle with individuals from a spiritualistic perspective based on where they’re coming from.

Mark
And I do, I do, I think what I, part of my job, I wrestle with individuals from a spiritualistic perspective based on where they’re coming from.

Justin
not everybody talks with me as a Christian, you know, that kind of thing.

Mark
Not everybody talks with me as a Christian, you know, that kind of thing. And you know, and there’s definitely different, you know, spiritualistic

Justin
And, you know, and there’s definitely different, you know, spiritualistic tendencies people have.

Mark
tendencies people have, and you know, they’ve grown up in a specific religion, or maybe they’ve

Justin
And, you know, they’ve grown up in a specific religion, or maybe they’ve grown up religious,

Mark
grown up religious, but then they’ve kind of jettisoned that to, you know, have this humanistic

Justin
but then they kind of jettison that to, you know, have this humanistic dynamic, you know, those kinds of things.

Mark
dynamic, you know, those kinds of things. And I’m, and that’s where it was kind of coming back to

Justin
And that’s where it was kind of coming back to for me,

Mark
for me because I think I have kind of developed this model of balance, you know, which in some

Justin
because I think I have kind of developed this model of balance, which in some ways I like it.

Mark
ways I like and I think in some ways it’s, you know, our continuums, you know, represent

Justin
I think in some ways it’s our continuums represent a sort of balance between two extremes.

Mark
a sort of balance between two extremes. isn’t it? Yes.

Justin
~ Yeah, even the idea of polarizing topics

Mark
We’re always trying to get that pendulum to where it’s, you know, I’m

Justin
where I was always trying to get that pendulum to where it’s, you know, I’m showing you my hand,

Mark
trying to join you for a hand. Yeah.

Justin
a pendulum, a board on a pendulum,

Mark
See saw. Yeah. Yeah.

Justin
trying to get it in balance so that it’s, yeah, exactly. So that it’s no longer swinging, it’s kind of balanced.

Mark
No longer swinging this kind of balance. Yeah. We’re always

Justin
Yeah, we’re always trying to get to that equilibrium.

Mark
trying to get to that equilibrium. Yes. Yep. And so that was, that

Justin
~ Yes. – Yep. – And so that was where, that’s when I heard this sermon,

Mark
was where that’s when I heard this sermon, it was just kind of

Justin
it was just kind of like this breath of fresh air

Mark
like this breath of fresh air for me in this aspect to,

Justin
in this aspect too.

Mark
’cause it wasn’t like I hadn’t known, I mean granted,

Justin
‘Cause it wasn’t like I hadn’t, no, I mean, granted,

Mark
I learned a lot because part of what the sermon was about

Justin
learned a lot because part of what the sermon was about was when Jesus is crossing over

Mark
was when Jesus is crossing over the Sea of Galilee,

Justin
the Sea of Galilee, the two areas, two references, one would be like the version that basically

Mark
the two areas that are two references, one would be like the version that basically said,

Justin
said Jesus went to South court.

Mark
Jesus went to Southport. Okay, and there was this one guy named Legion.

Justin
And there was this one guy named Lüggen.

Mark
The other version basically says

Justin
The other version basically says that Jesus went to Brunswick County and there were two

Mark
that Jesus went to Brunswick County and there were two guys.

Justin
guys. You follow me?

Mark
You follow me? And he, but either way,

Justin
But either way, he cast the demons out of these fellows into this herd of pigs.

Mark
he cast the demons out of these fellas into this herd of pigs. And so that was kind of, it was neat to hear.

Justin
And so that was kind of neat to hear.

Mark
It’s like, okay, it’s not that scripture is ever

Justin
It’s like, okay, it’s not that scripture is ever in controversy.

Mark
in controversy, it’s just being able to understand the facets

Justin
is being able to understand the facets from which each writer wrote their story.

Mark
from which each writer wrote their story.

Justin
And to me, and then what came out of that was that dynamic of being able to say, “Okay,

Mark
And to me, but what came out of that was that dynamic of being able to say, okay, yeah, in this spiritual realm,

Justin
yeah, in this spiritual realm, we do recognize what we are at war, if I may say so, kind of

Mark
we do recognize what we are at war, if I may say, so kind of that Ephesians six type dynamic

Justin
that Ephesians 6, you know, type dynamic that we do wrestle.

Mark
that we do wrestle.

Justin
And I think sometimes in our wrestling, you know, it can seem daunting, you know, because

Mark
And I think sometimes in our wrestling, it can seem daunting, because it does seem as if there’s this war front

Justin
it does seem as if there’s this war front where…

Mark
where yes, and like all good movies,

Justin
Cosmic Battle. Yes, where, you know, and like all good movies, you know, it’s like, you know, somebody’s got

Mark
it’s like, well, somebody’s gotta do something

Justin
to do something that completely shifts the dynamics, you know, humanity is going to die,

Mark
that completely shifts the dynamic else, humanity is going to die, that kind of thing. But that’s where it was coming from,

Justin
you know, kind of thing. But that’s where it was coming from, is it’s like, okay, all

Mark
is it’s like, “Okay, all of that was satisfied. Someone did do something and kept everybody from

Justin
of that was satisfied, you know, someone did do something and kept everybody from dying.

Mark
dying.” And being able to recognize that in those moments, even the spiritual realm, as I was

Justin
And yet, and being able to recognize that in those moments, even the spiritual realm, I was looking at it from that dynamic recognizes the authority of who Jesus Christ is.

Mark
looking at it from that dynamic, recognizes the authority of who Jesus Christ is. And there was no,

Justin
And there was no, there was no doubt because when, you know, in that spiritual realm, when

Mark
there was no doubt because when, you know, in that spiritual realm, when anyone addressed Jesus,

Justin
anyone addressed Jesus, it was like, I know who you are.

Mark
it was like, I know who you are. And so often it was, it reminds me that, you know, and I realized

Justin
Yeah. And so often it was, it reminds me that, you know, and I realized that’s albofiable and

Mark
that’s a Bible and that kind of thing. But so often, I’m mindful of the fact that, you know,

Justin
that kind of thing. So often I’m mindful of the fact that, you know, if we live in this spiritual culture

Mark
If we live in this spiritual culture, and yeah, I’m willing to recognize that when we think of evil, evil acknowledges who Jesus is.

Justin
and yeah, I’m willing to recognize that when we think of evil, evil acknowledges who Jesus is.

Mark
And there’s no doubt there. And it’s not that it’s a balanced equation. It’s a matter of, you know, deceiving and destroying as much as possible until that day comes when it’s going to end.

Justin
Yeah. And there’s no doubt there. And it’s not that it’s a balanced equation. Yeah. It’s a matter of, you know, deceiving and destroying as much as possible until that day comes. Yeah. When it’s going to end.

Mark
So that’s the nutshell of yeah, that was not shell of Father’s Day for me this weekend.

Justin
So it’s a lot of good stuff. That’s good. That’s the nutshell. Yeah. That was a nutshell of Father’s Day.

Mark
Yeah, it’s a couple things I was thinking about.

Justin
That’s sweet. Nice. Nice. Yeah, it’s a couple of things I was thinking about when you were sharing that.

Mark
First of all, the the balance thing, right? Yeah.

Justin
First of all, the balance thing, right? So I was thinking about balance.

Mark
Singing about balance. Yeah, balance only works when there’s a certain law at play

Justin
Balance only works when there’s a certain law at play of physics.

Mark
Hmm that law is gravity. I hear you right sure

Justin
That law is gravity. – I hear you. – Right?

Mark
Balance beam you sure

Justin
~ Sure. – So you think about balance, you think about a scale where you balance things out. You think about C-Saw, like you said,

Mark
See sign

Justin
the action of C-Sawing. You think about when you’re trying to keep your balance,

Mark
You think about when you’re trying to keep your balance right sure

Justin
and you’re kind of balancing on a whatever.

Mark
Right and left. Yeah, or like I’m what you call that a balance beam or the wire. Oh

Justin
Yeah, or like on what do you call that? A balance beam or the wire?

Mark
tightrope no problem

Justin
What do you got? Oh, tight rope. Tight rope? Yes. [LAUGHTER] You win. Any of those aspects– and none of those will work if you just go up about five miles, right? Sure. From our atmosphere, I don’t know how. I just made up a number. However, until you get out of the gravitational pull.

Mark
with you. Okay. None of those concepts work. I hear I hear where you’re coming from. And

Justin
And there’s no longer gravity. None of those concepts work.

Mark
the reason I say that is because this yin yang this balance of good and evil in my heart

Justin
Balance isn’t a thing. And the reason I say that is because this ying yang, this balance of good and evil in

Mark
is definitely a thing. Right. And on and when the laws of this creation that he’s put

Justin
my heart is definitely a thing. And when the laws of this creation that he’s put me in are at work, I do have to contend.

Mark
This creation that he’s put me in on that work. I do have to contend and Argue that right no no, I’m still yeah

Justin
you wouldn’t argue that, right? Like you wouldn’t say we don’t have to battle,

Mark
That’s okay, which is when you zoom out okay to universal level

Justin
we don’t have to battle against the evil or against our flesh. I know that’s not your point at all. You’re making an awesome point, which I’m trying to get to as well, which is when you zoom out to a universal level, balance is a silly thing.

Mark
balance is a silly thing. I hear where you’re coming from.

Justin
Right, there’s no such thing as being,

Mark
I would even argue that he built balance into the solar system. He built

Justin
I mean, there is, and I would even argue that he’s built balance into the solar system. He’s built balance in the universe,

Mark
balance in the universe. But you know, so obviously the analogy isn’t perfect.

Justin
But, you know, so obviously the analogy isn’t perfect,

Mark
But I had about how that concept of scale just doesn’t apply once you just go

Justin
but I’m just thinking about how that concept of a scale just doesn’t apply once you just zoom out just a little bit.

Mark
zoom up just a little bit. Sure. And then you still got all kinds of zooming to do

Justin
And then you still got all kinds of zooming to do

Mark
to still even get to the edge of the universe where that concept is kind of

Justin
to still even get to the edge of the universe where that concept is kind of silly, right?

Mark
silly right sure and I think of that as an analogy for what you’re saying and

Justin
And I think of that as an analogy for what you’re saying in, you know, even the demons and how they recognize

Mark
you know even the demons and how they recognize there’s no balance here yes

Justin
there’s no balance here, right?

Mark
agreed because we came from zoomed out we know the big picture we know what

Justin
When I zoom out because we came from zoom down we know the big picture We know what the universe looks like and we know that this these laws only apply and this one tiny little context

Mark
these sure sure sure sure sure sure sure sure and we know that these laws only apply in this one tiny little context and this guy in front of them lives outside

Justin
And this guy in front of us a plot lives outside of that context, you know

Mark
of that context. Sure. And I think that’s, you know, that’s when the Bible says, “Greaters,

Justin
And I think that’s you know, that’s when the Bible says greater see that’s in you than he that’s in the world

Mark
you, the community, that’s in the world.” That’s what I was talking about, like, in the spirit

Justin
That’s what it’s talking about like no, you don’t understand the spirit of the God who created this universe that

Mark
of the God who created this universe that abides above and beyond all of those rules,

Justin
Bides above and beyond all of those rules of good and evil. Um, he lives in you so

Mark
good and evil. You listen to it. So you’re good. Yeah. I hear you. Yeah. And I think, you know, that’s,

Justin
You’re good And I think you know, that’s I think as you were talking that that balance tends to be our human

Mark
I think as you were talking that that balance tends to be our human way of making such a cosmic force or design, I’ll call it understandable.

Justin
way of Making sense. Yeah, cosmic. Yes

Mark
And I think that’s where that complacency comes into play because at times I just want to make things understandable.

Justin
Yes. And I think that’s what that complacency comes to play because at times I just want to make things understandable.

Mark
So I use my human construct to basically say, okay, this is how it is.

Justin
Yes. So I use my human construct to basically say, okay, this is how it is.

Mark
And I think in the aspect that can be part of a deception over time,

Justin
And I think in the aspect that can be part of a deception over time because I think in some

Mark
because I think in some ways from my perspective that can be on my part,

Justin
ways from my perspective that can be on my part, even the pride.

Mark
leaving the pride. I’ve got an understanding of this, you know, this created design, okay?

Justin
Yeah, I’ve got an understanding. Yeah, this you know this Design okay, and this is my teaspoon way of holding a piece of that. Yes

Mark
And this is my teaspoon way of holding a piece of that. Yeah.

Justin
Yeah, exactly the midst of the whole universe

Mark
In the midst of the whole universe.

Justin
Yeah, you’re

Mark
Yeah. Go ahead.

Justin
You’re making me think of

Mark
The message I heard this weekend and the thoughts that came out of that,

Justin
the message I heard this weekend and the thoughts that came out of that which was a

Mark
which is this idea of Christ is our cornerstone.

Justin
This idea of Christ is our cornerstone.

Mark
OK, sure.

Justin
~ Okay.

Mark
All of the building materials reference that cornerstone.

Justin
~ And so all other building materials reference off of that cornerstone.

Mark
So if you put it incorrectly or your cornerstone is just a bad cornerstone. Oh sure then your your building will be out of whack, right?

Justin
So if you put it incorrectly, or your cornerstone is just a bad cornerstone, then your building will be out of whack, right?

Mark
Sure, and I

Justin
And I talk, in a small group,

Mark
Smogger we talked a little bit about this and I’m talking about how knowledge could be a cornerstone

Justin
we talk a little bit about this, and I was talking about how knowledge could be a cornerstone, right?

Mark
Which is kind of what you’re saying sure I build everything based out of

Justin
Which is kind of what you’re saying. So if I build everything based off of knowledge

Mark
Knowledge is most important that I’m always gonna have caps sure never gonna line up because we can’t know at all

Justin
is most important, then I’m always going to have gaps. It’s never going to line up because we can’t know at all.

Mark
And even if it was no of all available to us, our brain and our time cannot contain it.

Justin
And even if it was no wobble, like available to us, our brain and our time cannot contain it.

Mark
And so we’re always going to have gaps.

Justin
And so we’re always going to have gaps.

Mark
We’re always going to have to fill them in with analogies or concepts that kind of cover

Justin
We’re always going to have to fill them in with analogies or concepts that kind of cover a whole gamut of things

Mark
a whole gamut of things just to be able to look at.

Justin
just to be able to look at.

Mark
Sure, yeah. And I think like that happens throughout the course of history and science, we’ve discovered

Justin
And I think like that happens throughout the course of history and science, we’ve discovered more

Mark
more and more about science but everything we discover about science tends to open up

Justin
and more about science, but everything we discover about science tends to open up these little side room doors

Mark
these little side room doors that were like oh crap we can’t open that one yet because

Justin
that were like, oh crap, we can’t open that one yet because we don’t understand it enough,

Mark
we don’t understand it enough yeah at least we got into this next room we can understand

Justin
but at least we got into this next room and we can understand more about everywhere we left

Mark
more about everywhere we left because we’re now in here sure and we recognize but there’s

Justin
because we’re now in here and we recognize, but there’s just so many more rooms

Mark
just so many more rooms that we thought this was the last door right yeah idea um and so

Justin
that we thought this was the last door, right? kind of idea. And so yeah, it’s like this kind of,

Mark
Yeah, it’s like this kind of what and then you think about the fact that again

Justin
and then you think about the fact that, again, the God of the universe,

Mark
God of the universe kind of lives above all of this sure

Justin
the one that kind of lives above all of this and has a perfect understanding of it all,

Mark
Tries to communicate with us the aunt

Justin
tries to communicate with us the ant, right?

Mark
Sure about what an ocean is yeah

Justin
About what an ocean is or what a skyscraper is.

Mark
skyscraper is yeah, because we can’t possibly conceptualize what a skyscraper is he uses words like it’s kind of like a

Justin
And because we can’t possibly conceptualize what a skyscraper is, he uses words like, It’s kind of like a big stick, right?

Mark
Stick I hear you okay. Got it

Justin
And we go, okay, got it, God.

Mark
like God said it was a big stick.

Justin
But you said it was a big stick. And he’s like, no, it’s just that you can’t understand that.

Mark
He’s like, no, it’s just that you can’t understand that.

Justin
And I feel like the Bible has, you know,

Mark
And I feel like the Bible had, you know,

Justin
when we think about contradictions and, you know,

Mark
when you think about contradictions, you know, you think about all the names of God.

Justin
you think about all the names of God, it’s like, will he be a lion or is he a lamb?

Mark
It’s like, well, is he a lion or is he a lamb?

Justin
Which one is he, right?

Mark
~ Sure. – Right?

Justin
Because he references both.

Mark
Cause he, this is both.

Justin
And if we’re going to be literal and stick to, you know,

Mark
And then you’re gonna be literal and stick to, you know,

Justin
well, it’s this one or it’s that one

Mark
well, it’s this one or it’s that one

Justin
that we’re going to have to argue with this other part

Mark
that we’re gonna have to argue with this other part

Justin
of the Bible and I feel like there’s a lot of theological concepts that we also want

Mark
of the Bible and I feel like there’s a lot of theological concepts that we also want that bale.

Justin
that balance, right?

Mark
Sure. Right. Where we want to say, like, God’s sovereignty versus free

Justin
Where we want to say like God’s sovereignty versus free will, for instance, we’ve talked

Mark
wealth, for instance, we’ve talked about that in the past.

Justin
about in the past and we’re like, well, it has to be in balance or I have to choose one

Mark
And we’re like, well, it has to be a balancer or I choose one

Justin
or the other.

Mark
or the other. But I think it’s kind of like he’s describing a skyscraper

Justin
But I think it’s kind of like he’s describing a skyscraper and/or a shipping container.

Mark
and or a shipping commander. And it’s like, they’re both things.

Justin
It’s like they’re both things and you can’t understand them.

Mark
And you can understand them. So we’re going to go stick and leaf in a pond.

Justin
So we’re going to go a stick and leaf in a pond.

Mark
Sure. And I hear you.

Justin
And does that make sense?

Mark
That makes sense.

Justin
I don’t know, it’s kind of a rabbit trail, but…

Mark
Yeah, it makes sense. It’s kind of– Well, no, it’s kind of like when you talk to those disciples, you know, the the kingdom of heaven is like

Justin
Well, no, it’s kind of like when we talk to the disciples, you know, the Kingdom of Heaven is like…

Mark
you know, and you know

Justin
Yes, yeah, exactly.

Mark
That and I think that’s you know each one of those pictures makes a greater

Justin
And I think that’s, you know, each one of those pictures makes a greater understanding

Mark
Understanding of what the kingdom of heaven is like in this aspect of a concept. That’s too big to explain

Justin
of what the Kingdom of Heaven is like in this aspect of a concept that’s too big to explain from just one human dynamic.

Mark
from just one human dynamic Yeah, and we benefit from those moments where Jesus was a kindly teacher and then it’s like

Justin
Yeah, and we benefit from those moments where Jesus was a kindly teacher and then he said, “It’s like…”

Mark
yeah, yeah

Justin
So we can understand, “Oh, this is another facet.”

Mark
Yeah, this is another facet, you know, exactly

Justin
But I think the Bible is full of facets, but we don’t always get the benefit of that

Mark
It’s full of facets But we don’t always get the benefit of the is like part sure you’ll just say well

Justin
is like part to be able to say, “Well, in other words, I can’t throw out this by the

Mark
I can’t in other words. I can’t again I can’t throw this by the Bible because this part of the Bible says this I have to somehow reconcile that they both can

Justin
Bible because this part of the Bible says this. I have to somehow reconcile that they both can coexist in that universe that’s beyond me that I can’t understand. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Mark
coexist in that universe that’s beyond me that I can’t understand. Sure. Yeah.

Justin
Yeah. So that’s kind of where it came from, you know, and I appreciate your ability to bring the cornerstone because I think knowledge is a good thing.

Mark
Yeah. Yeah. So that’s, that’s, that’s kind of where it came from. You know, and I, and I, and I appreciate your, uh, your ability to bring the cornerstone because I think, I think knowledge is a good thing. And yeah, at the same time, I’m willing to recognize that, you know, the

Justin
Yeah. And yeah, at the same time, I’m willing to recognize that, you know, the knowledge that I have has gaps in it. And I think that’s where this weekend came from, for me, is being willing to recognize that I saw some gaps.

Mark
knowledge that I have has gaps in it. And I think that’s where this weekend came from for me, is being willing to recognize that I saw some gaps.

Justin
Yeah. And that’s not a bad thing. No. It’s the ability to be able to say, OK, I need to have this awareness that there is this, this continual. Yeah.

Mark
And that’s not a bad thing. It’s the ability to be able to say, okay, I need to have this awareness that there is this continual battle

Justin
And there is this spiritual realm that we enter into.

Mark
and there is this spiritual realm that we enter into. And I think that’s the dynamic that we’re gonna wrestle with

Justin
And I think that’s the dynamic that we’ve been rustled with, is we have this physical realm.

Mark
is we have this physical realm. And I don’t think, and yeah, I don’t think there are few people

Justin
And I don’t think, yeah, yeah, I don’t think there are a few people who would definitely deny that we are spiritual beings.

Mark
who would definitely deny that we are spiritual beings ’cause I think most everyone has this concept

Justin
I think most everyone has this concept of good and evil, even in religions, if you will.

Mark
of good and evil, even in religions, if you will. And that was kind of what brought that

Justin
And that was kind of what brought that in a more powerful way to me when I was able to

Mark
in a more powerful way to me when I was able to hear that

Justin
hear that, maybe not necessarily for the first time, but for me it was kind of an eye-opening.

Mark
maybe not necessarily for the first time, but for me it was kind of an eye-opening. It’s like, yeah, it was a good reminder

Justin
It’s like, yeah, it was a good reminder to be able to say, okay, yeah, there is this

Mark
to be able to say, okay, yeah, there is this authority

Justin
authority is over at all. And whether we acknowledge who Jesus was, even that spiritual realm is

Mark
that’s over it all. And whether we acknowledge who Jesus was, even that spiritual realm is willing to say,

Justin
willing to say, “Oh son of God, what are you doing here?” You know, is today the day that ends it all?

Mark
“Hey, oh son of God, what are you doing here?” Is today the day that ends it all?

Justin
Yeah.

Mark
you know, ’cause that’s really what the question was.

Justin
Yeah, that’s really what the question was. And it’s like, you know, no, that day hasn’t come yet.

Mark
And it’s like, you know, no, that day hasn’t come yet, but, you know, and I think it just was a neat little

Justin
But, you know, and I think it just was a neat little opportunity.

Mark
opportunity, and then that’s when I started that

Justin
And then that’s when I started that wrestling for me of being able to say, okay,

Mark
rustling for me of being able to say, okay, it’s not just like you thought it was as far as this balance,

Justin
it’s not just like you thought it was versus balance. Not that the stick, you know, the things are, you know, are evil.

Mark
not that the stick and other things aren’t, you know, are evil, it’s just…

Justin
I’m offended again.

Mark
(laughs)

Justin
Yeah, no, I get it.

Mark
But it made me think about it in that way

Justin
But it made me think about it that way. Yeah.

Mark
of being able to say, okay,

Justin
Of being able to say, OK, how do we

Mark
how do we wrestle with this spiritual nature?

Justin
wrestle with this spiritual nature?

Mark
And I think the battle is real,

Justin
And I think the battle is real, but I also

Mark
but I also think the reality of it is the war is won.

Justin
think the reality of it is the war is won. Yeah.

Mark
And it’s a being a man.

Justin
And it’s a being a man.

Mark
And I think when the CR dynamics came to mind too,

Justin
And I think the CR dynamics came to mind, too, because I think so often in our shame,

Mark
because I think so often in our shame, we can we can tend to see evil is this huge thing and there’s no way to overcome it and

Justin
we can we can tend to see evil is this huge thing and there’s no way to overcome it. And I think, you know, that’s where Jesus says our higher power comes in the play and say, no,

Mark
I think you know That’s where Jesus says our higher power comes in the play and say no There’s there’s there’s there’s a way. I’ve already dealt with this

Justin
there’s there’s there’s there’s a way I’ve already dealt with this.

Mark
You just need to trust me, you know in faith from that perspective and it was just that

Justin
You just need to trust me in faith from that perspective. And it was just yeah.

Mark
That was where I was coming from

Justin
Yeah. It kind of to the thing too is like if you start to get a glimpse of that,

Mark
~ Yeah, the thing too is like if you start to get a glimpse of that, like kind of the imbalance, right?

Justin
of like kind of the imbalance, right? The true imbalance.

Mark
~ Mm-hmm. – I think that that could put it,

Justin
I think that that could put it, I think that’s likely a meat subject

Mark
I think that’s likely a neat subject

Justin
versus a milk subject.

Mark
versus a milk subject.

Justin
So if you’re not familiar with what I’m saying,

Mark
So if you’re not familiar with what I’m saying. – Sure. – You know, essentially the Bible talks about

Justin
you know, essentially the Bible talks about as new believers, the teaching you need

Mark
as new believers, the teaching you need is more like milk for maybe, right?

Justin
is more like milk for a baby, right?

Mark
Like it needs to be kind of the fundamentals,

Justin
Like it needs to be kind of the fundamentals, the ground level things, you know.

Mark
the ground level things. You know, and no teeth yet. You can’t chew it up. Yeah,

Justin
And then as you, right, right. And as you mature, you need meat.

Mark
Yeah

Justin
You need to be able to chew.

Mark
Like the level that you’re you’re talking about does require some chewing some

Justin
And I definitely feel like understanding this to the level. Like to the level that you’re talking about does require some chewing, some teeth.

Mark
Sure, if you don’t have that I think it could be pretty hard to wrestle with and why I say that is it wait

Justin
And if you don’t have that, I think it could be pretty hard to wrestle with. And why I say that is, wait, you’re telling me he has that much.

Mark
You’re telling me yes that but that imbalance and yet I still have to you know deal with evil like yeah

Justin
It’s that imbalance. And yet I still have to deal with evil. Like, why would he let any of it exist then?

Mark
Why would you let any of it exist then why not just make all of our lives perfect and happy?

Justin
Why not just make all of our lives perfect and happy?

Mark
Sure.

Justin
You know, it’s like…

Mark
And that was another reminder I think in some ways because as we have our own family discussions

Justin
~ That was another reminder, I think, in some ways, is as we have our own family discussions over topics

Mark
over topics and so forth, that whole aspect of John has a friend that he’s talking with

Justin
and so forth, that whole aspect of John has a friend that he’s talking with, that really rustles

Mark
that really wrestles with that aspect of how could a good God let bad things happen to

Justin
with that aspect of how could a good God, like bad things happen to a good people.

Mark
good people.

Justin
~ Exactly, yeah. – And I think that is part of that,

Mark
I think that is part of that when we see it from that ground level warfare, you know,

Justin
when we see it from that ground level warfare, you know, that, yeah, but lost over here.

Mark
that, yeah, but we lost over here.

Justin
Yeah.

Mark
I hear what you’re saying.

Justin
Here’s, I hear what you’re saying over here, but it just seems like that’s inconsistent

Mark
We want over here, but it just seems like that’s inconsistent with my human sense of

Justin
with my human sense of balance.

Mark
balance.

Justin
Yeah.

Mark
if there is this great God, you know, come on now.

Justin
If there is this great God, you know, come on now. Yeah.

Mark
We should just live in a…

Justin
especially if you’re in one of the towns that just got captured by the enemy and it’s like,

Mark
Especially if you’re in, you know, one of the towns that just got captured by the enemy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but we’re winning.

Justin
“Yeah, but we’re winning.” Well, sure doesn’t look like it where I stand. I can totally empathize

Mark
Well, it sure doesn’t look like it where I stand. Sure. Yeah. You know, I can totally empathize with, you know, someone who goes through some stuff.

Justin
with someone going through some stuff or in a situation where they’re family or whoever is

Mark
No doubt. Or in a situation with a family or whoever, you know,

Justin
going through some evil. But this doesn’t jive. You’re saying there’s a good guy

Mark
ones who’s really some evil, right? Yeah. And going, yeah, but this doesn’t just doesn’t jive. Yeah. I’m saying this is going to kind of love me.

Justin
God loves me. Well, this is proof that’s either not true or he’s, you know, it’s not true one

Mark
Well, this is proof that’s either not true. He’s not true one sense or other.

Justin
sensor or another. Like he doesn’t exist or he does and he doesn’t like me. I mean, that doesn’t

Mark
Like he doesn’t exist or he does. And he doesn’t like me. I mean, he doesn’t seem right either.

Justin
seem right either. You know, yeah. So that’s, I think that’s, again, can be some of the tough

Mark
You know? Yep. Yeah. So that’s– I think that’s, again, can be some of the tough wrestling stuff.

Justin
wrestling stuff. And the Bible has plenty to say about all that. Don’t don’t don’t misunderstand

Mark
No doubt. In the Bible it’s plenty to say about it. Don’t misunderstand.

Justin
It talks you know, they’ll like one of the verses says he’s not slow concerning his promise

Mark
It talks. Yeah, yeah. One of the verses says he’s not slow concerning his promise, but he’s not willing to, and

Justin
But he’s not willing to any should perish right because they were asking like why isn’t Jesus come back yet?

Mark
you should perish, right? Because they were asking, “Why hasn’t Jesus come back yet?

Justin
You know we’re waiting for this. He’s gonna make it all better kind of the same idea

Mark
We’re waiting for this. He’s going to make it all better.” He’s got the same idea. He’s going to write all the wrongs, fix all the bad.

Justin
He’s gonna write all the wrongs fix all the bad. Why is any here yet? He’s like well. He’s not slow about that promise

Mark
Why isn’t he here yet? He’s not slow about that promise. He’s patient.

Justin
But he cares more that more would come to him You know then then that those yeah exactly and so that the Bible has plenty to say about the concepts of of those things

Mark
Yeah. And so the Bible has pointed to the same about the concepts of those things.

Justin
and even Paul talks about a Roman Zion like

Mark
And even Paul talks about it in Roman times.

Justin
You might ask these questions, but it’s like asking a potter why he formed the clay the way he did

Mark
You might ask these questions, but it’s like asking a potter why he formed the clay and the clay he did.

Justin
It’s like well your clay you can’t understand the purpose, you know

Mark
It’s like for a year clay. He can’t understand the purpose.

Justin
Yeah, and I think understanding

Mark
Yeah. Yeah, and I think understanding

Justin
Good versus evil

Mark
Good versus evil requires a

Justin
requires a

Mark
View that we cannot have and therefore we have to trust the one that has the view that we cannot have sure

Justin
View that we cannot have and therefore we have to trust the one that has the view that we cannot have right We have to be so zoomed out at our universal level to understand it that we cannot do that and therefore we have to rely

Mark
You have to be so zoomed out at a universal level to understand it that we cannot do that Yeah

Justin
On him, you know, they’re it requires faith. I mean that he’s never gonna remove that requirement from this journey, right?

Mark
No doubt sure. Yeah

Justin
And to the degree that that’s what Hebrews 11 talks about says by faith, you know, these these people

Mark
Yeah. These people, you know, we’ll see the kingdom of heaven.

Justin
You know, we’ll see the kingdom of heaven. It has to do with the fact that faith is the requirement

Mark
It has to do with the fact that faith is the requirement. Sure.

Justin
You know, so there’s always gonna be bits and pieces of our theology and belief that we won’t have the full answer

Mark
So there’s always going to be bits and pieces of our theology and belief that we won’t have the full answer and rely on what you do and therefore I rely on you.

Justin
We have to rely on well you do and therefore I rely on you and that’s you know

Mark
And that’s, you know, yeah.

Justin
Yeah, and even that faith is a gift given for those who want to accept it very much, you

Mark
Yeah. And even that faith is a gift that’s given for those who want to accept it very much, you

Justin
know, in that concept of being able to recognize that, yeah, it’s not something we have to

Mark
in that concept of being able to recognize that it’s not something we have to muster up.

Justin
muster up.

Mark
It’s something that’s even provided. And to the degree that we have the ability to choose it

Justin
It’s something that’s even provided to the degree that we have the ability to choose it

Mark
when we see that opportunity is a provision. So yeah, it’s just, yeah. And I think here again,

Justin
when we see that opportunity as a provision. So yeah, this is, yeah. And I think here again, you know,

Mark
And as I was thinking about spiritualism in our world,

Justin
that as I was thinking about, you know, spiritualism in our world, you know, they’re, I think if we’re trying,

Mark
I think if we’re trying, I think so often,

Justin
I think so often what can be railless,

Mark
what can derail us?

Justin
maybe in some ways is this ability to create heaven on earth

Mark
Maybe in some ways is this ability to create heaven on earth type dynamic,

Justin
dynamic, you know, to where if this is the best that it gets, this

Mark
to where if this is the best that it gets, this isn’t very good on certain days.

Justin
isn’t very good on certain days. Yeah. And that can be that can be discouraging.

Mark
And that can be discouraging because I’m striving,

Justin
Yeah. I’m striving. I’m working, you know, granted, you know, even as I say those

Mark
I’m working, you know, and granted, you know, even as I say those things from my perspective,

Justin
things from my perspective, I recognize that’s quite often

Mark
I recognize that’s quite often where it comes from

Justin
where it comes from is when I try to want to do it my way, you

Mark
is my pride, I wanna do it my way, you know,

Justin
know, and I don’t always necessarily consider

Mark
and I don’t always necessarily consider, you know,

Justin
you know, that I could be deceived in some way that’s saying, okay, it’s about right now.

Mark
that I could be deceived in some way to saying, okay, it’s about right now, it’s about what I can build up right now,

Justin
It’s about what I can build up right now. It’s about the things that I can establish now.

Mark
about the things that I can establish now. And you know, it doesn’t take too

Justin
And, you know, it doesn’t take too long to get about it in that context of, okay,

Mark
awful long to think about it in that context of, okay, there’s a lot of people

Justin
there’s a lot of people that tried to make it here on Earth,

Mark
that tried to make it here on earth and that’s not what God talks with us about.

Justin
and that’s not what God talks with us about, you know, it’s like,

Mark
You know, it’s like seek first the kingdom of heaven and those kind of

Justin
“Seek first and keep it alive.” Yeah. And those kinds of things. So, yeah.

Mark
things. So yeah.

Justin
Yeah, and yeah, yeah, yeah, I got I kind of lost my thought actually

Mark
You chewing on something? That’s all right

Justin
I did yeah, yeah, make sure Megan wasn’t needing me and

Mark
You pulled your you pulled your phone out you were gonna look oh Okay, I got you

Justin
It wasn’t Megan and I was trying to figure out what it was and then poof. I thought it was gone

Mark
It’s all good

Justin
So this is why Mark doesn’t look at his phone. He’s just smart man It’s all good. Yeah.

Mark
Yeah, it’s about being present in the moment and I understand where you’re coming from because if it was Megan we’d want to know

Justin
It’s about being present the moment. And I had to say, we’re here to come and come. That’s right. If it was negative, we’d want to know.

Mark
Yeah

Justin
Yeah. Yeah.

Mark
We’re going on vacation tomorrow, so there’s needs that we might need.

Justin
We’re going on vacation tomorrow. So there’s, you know, there’s needs that you might need. Yeah.

Mark
Yeah.

Justin
We’re excited about that.

Mark
I’m excited about that.

Justin
That’s why we’re recording on a Tuesday, which seems so wrong.

Mark
Yes. That’s right. It does seem, it does seem, yeah.

Justin
Instead of our, I mean, it seems a little off. Yeah, that’s sure that’s hard for you.

Mark
Just definitely changed my, uh, my disciplines for the week, but that’s all right. It’s good. That’s true.

Justin
Mixing stuff up.

Mark
I can do it. I can do it.

Justin
Look at you.

Mark
Yeah.

Justin
You’re here.

Mark
Yeah.

Justin
You’re ready.

Mark
Yeah.

Justin
And you brought your own subject.

Mark
~ And then you brought your own subject. – Wow.

Justin
That was good.

Mark
~ You did good.

Justin
Thank you for sharing that word.

Mark
~ Yeah. – Thank you for sharing that. – No problem. Yes. So that being said, this is how we see it.

Justin
He was giving me a little space to see if that thought would come back.

Mark
(laughing) – He was giving me a little space to see if that thought would come back. – Yeah.

Justin
it didn’t. So that was good stuff. I appreciate it.

Mark
~ Yeah. – That was good stuff. I appreciate it.

Justin
No problem, happy shit.

Mark
~ No problem. Happy to share.

{Music}

Justin
Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like How I See It, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do: subscribe, rate, review, follow us, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is [email protected]. Yep. I said dot click, as in C-L-I-C-K.

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