Mark:

I don’t know. You’re in charge of the buttons.

Justin:

Numbers counting up.

Mark:

Oh.

Justin:

We’ve gotten pretty good at this stuff. I think we don’t we haven’t uh not hit record.

Mark:

Well you know what?

Justin:

Although I just don’t almost didn’t hit record. I was gonna say don’t be saying that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark:

Don’t be saying that

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Be careful. Yeah.

Justin:

A little dose of humility is good for us.

Mark:

That’s true.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Humility is just one of those words. Powerful word.

Mark:

Oh, it is a powerful word. Yeah.

Justin:

That’s a segue now. You have to run with it.

Mark:

Well I was just gonna say hello, Justin.

Justin:

Oh right. Uh Hello, Mark. Good morning.

Mark:

Good morning.

Justin:

How are ya?

Mark:

I am well.

Justin:

I hear ya.

Mark:

Yeah. Yes indeed. Speaking of humility, thank you for the humbling. Last night at uh Ultimate Frisbee, that was fun.

Justin:

That was fun.

Mark:

That was fun. It was a humbling experience, so that was good. Yeah. Fun time had by all.

Justin:

Yeah. Sometimes you know you guys are pretty good at humbling the other things.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Like Uh Mark and John, his son w are play on a team often and when they get the chemistry going, there’s literally no stopping. Thankfully last night there was a little

Mark:

Yeah. It was a fun

Justin:

short circuit in the chemistry, I think, because yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, it was good. Oh, it was g it was fun.

Justin:

It was fun.

Mark:

There were some there were some close ones that were That were fun and then like say there were some blowouts that were humility. Humili he humbling. Humbling. Humbling.

Justin:

And I got to come over to your team for the last one. Yeah. That was fun too.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So yeah, we won when you were on our team. I’m not sure you’re deciding to vote. But I will s I will say your wife Megan. Yeah. She was on your team.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And you guys won majority. So maybe Megan is the Deciding

Justin:

she’s the magic ticket.

Mark:

The factor. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. But yeah Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt

Justin:

and Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural Polarization through thoughtful conversations. Speaking of wives.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

It was your dear wife who suggested this topic.

Mark:

Yes it was.

Justin:

This topic of the power of words.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

So this one goes out to Chris.

Mark:

That’s right.

Justin:

We’re gonna talk about the power of words.

Mark:

We are.

Justin:

So

Mark:

go ahead. We all we say so at the same time. First person with the question wins.

Justin:

What are some powerful words you’ve experienced in your life? And for the sake of I don’t know, bound uh to some some sort of uh c boundaries around this topic. Uh-huh. Let’s let’s Let’s talk about well I was gonna say single words, but you know what? That doesn’t make that let’s go wherever we need to go.

Mark:

I hear ya. Well I think Uh well

Justin:

yeah. Each word

Mark:

has a certain level of power, but when we combine them.

Justin:

based on something we heard you know someone said to us when we were

Mark:

that was gonna be my question for you, but you beat me to it.

Justin:

Uh huh.

Mark:

In that process of Thinking about the the people who have spoken into your life at specific times. You know, yeah that that for me that depot defines more so the power of words and the and our ability at times to speak life into people. or even circumstances I would say, you know, versus uh well, the opposite of speaking life would be speaking death, criticism.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I and I think both Um are an example of the power that words have. Our words are nuclear. you know, that those words are done.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think, you know, that’s that’s very mindful when we think about or when we think back in our own lives, those people who have, you know, either encouraged us or you know, criticized us and how those words, even after the the sound wave have died, are still you know in our kind of lodged in our souls, if you will. To that degree. I believe that is part of the power of words. And yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s the lodging in the soul. Yeah.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I um I can certainly and this is a question I will ask you first.

Mark:

Oh, no problem.

Justin:

Uh but I can certainly think of words or like, you know, statements said at certain times in my life that kind of have carried with me as a script, right? Like when I say script I mean kind of a uh something that comes up in my head over and over my whole life to kind of tries to define who I think I can be or or should should or shouldn’t be.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um, but I’d be curious if you have any of those and what comes to mind.

Mark:

Yeah, I think uh and it’s interesting. Um I’ve had probably uh I’ve probably had at least four, you know mm mentors in my life, you know, that I really just kinda and I and I think back on those conversations at times. And um I don’t know whether I mentioned it before but uh Jeff Patton was very uh influential for me.

Justin:

I remember hearing that name Shout out to Jeff Patton.

Mark:

Well, he died of COVID.

Justin:

I mean

Mark:

memory.

Justin:

Rest in peace, D.

Mark:

But yeah, uh he uh he definitely uh spoke you know, words into my life. He was uh, you know, even when Chris and I sp you know, kinda thinking of Chris, you know, when Chris and I were dating, you know, just having those conversations with him. you know, about, you know, marriage and relationship and that kind of thing and, you know, other other people who came in at times, you know, during life cycles, you know, when you’re in the midst of trying to make a decision. You know, and um I had another I a a fellow who is still alive, uh Bill was his name, um, is his name. you know, we were uh when we were thinking about moving to South Carolina or to North Carolina as far as the church plant, you know, he just really spoke uh, you know, about faith and then we talked about Jonah and, you know that part where he’s sinking in the water and you know I’ve exchanged uh Jonah was saying I have exchanged The blessings of God for worthless idols. You know, and just people, you know, it doesn’t always have to be scripture for me, but you know, those things that, you know, kind of speak and say, okay, yeah, this is a this is a pivotal moment. And those g those guys, you know, from my life were there to encourage me. with, you know, positive words and you know, I can reflect back on those and of course, you know, even you know, especially with Chris and, you know, the kids even, there’s those moments where you know, they speak and it’s like the light bulb goes off because they just said something that kind of affirmed or or even challenged who I was as a husband, father, those kind of things. So those I think those are the power words and I think we don’t necessarily Recognize that power at times when we’re just wanting to spout off, if I may say so, you know, in the midst of anger or reactivity.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

How about you? What about uh what uh what people or places or circumstances come to mind when you think of uh pivotal moments or power of words?

Justin:

Uh well before that you made me think about how yeah we don’t re recognize the p the power of words until we see them see the power, right? Like it’s often where it it’s it especially when I you know it’s my words that were powerful in a negative way for in particular that it’s like well you can’t put the toothpaste back in the tube, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um Which, you know, I think there is room for redemption and and, you know, apologizing and and sure that that kind of thing. And um I I definitely um as the resident critic here I definitely pray that uh that there will be some redemption for some of my inert in inert inert critici no, uh whatever. My default state, which is to want to criticize or like, you know to make better, you know?

Mark:

Sure. Excellence.

Justin:

Yeah, exactly. Excellence. Call back to a couple weeks ago. Yeah you need to listen to that. Um but yeah, yeah, I think so. I think so. And I think um for me uh I can think of Instances where I’ve said things where I just pray and hope it doesn’t become one of those stuck in the head

Mark:

Yeah, yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, yeah. And in fact, you know, I’ve known Megan since I was in seventh grade and we’ve dated since I think I was in I think when I was a senior we started dating. I can’t remember. Megan would remember.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um and Like, so there’s been, you know, there’s there’s many, many years of uh dialogue between us, but there’s certainly some things that roll around in Megan’s head that I said, you know. The first year we were married, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. Where it’s like, man, I wish I could go back to stupid Justin and smack that out of his mouth.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know what I mean? Uh, there and often there are things where, like you said, it’s said in a frustrating moment or um Yeah. And it’s not even the full extent of how you know we feel. I think about also my dad who’s who often tells me the story because um I sing, you know, with worship and stuff like that and I play guitar and so he you know

Mark:

anything you wanna sing right now, come and do I

Justin:

happy birthday to you. Is it your birthday?

Mark:

No. But that’s that’s Uh back to your dad.

Justin:

Thank you very much. Um he often tells a story uh be uh of how his third grade teacher called him out for how bad his singing was

Mark:

Oh wow.

Justin:

Say it. I can’t remember the comment, but he you know, it was a pretty like critical almost making fun of him comment. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think he and he just internalized that and said, Oh, that that’s who I am. I’m I’m the kid who can’t sing. I got it. Check, you know, and kinda just That was his identity from that point till now. I mean and I I don’t think he doesn’t think he can sing anymore, but I just think the idea of singing in front of other people is just no things. You know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I I totally get that too. I definitely because I struggled a lot with self-esteem when I was younger, if someone would have said that to me. I c I can relate completely. Thankfully I didn’t put myself it out there in that way. Sure. Because I’m sure I would have gotten comments like that. Um whatever level I’m able to sing now has taken a lot of work to try and Yeah. Kind of refine the rough material that I what I would say my voice is. So and I think that’s true, you know, just As far as singing goes, I think almost anyone can sing with a little bit of work. And there’s not like this inherent gene you get where Y you know, unless you can’t unless you can’t sing um Anki. I mean that that’s an unfortunate, you know, situation. But that doesn’t mean you can’t sing. It just means people might not enjoy hearing it, but you know Other than that, you can work out a lot of kinks and and tonality and stuff like that.

Mark:

Huh.

Justin:

Yeah Not not in

Mark:

That’s a but that would be the power of a song.

Justin:

Yeah, that would be the power of a vocal teacher.

Mark:

Yes. But I I think about it as I as I make the joke, I think about it too. Even you know, songs. Yeah. you know, worship, yeah, you know, the power of words to be able to, you know, encourage, to lift up, to, to transform our focus. at times. And I was thinking about uh when you were talking about early on, first year Justin Megan, what do you think makes the difference? for you from then till now? What has been that transformation, if you will? What

Justin:

well Transformation is a strong word.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I’m still Justin, so you know, I still I think like every husband probably slips up, you know, sure the time. says the wrong thing at the wrong wrong time and then finds out that it really had an impact that was unintended. Um so I would say that’s certainly still a thing that happens. Um I think I think the answer is more likely a shared growth. In other words, um growth in Megan to understand sometimes Justin, you know, says stuff when you know like

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Sometimes humans say things when they’re frustrated they don’t mean from the bottom of their heart and and kind of a you know, like I said, kind of a growth on her part to go to understand that.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And a growth on my part to you know, try not to say as much when you you know you know the whole if you don’t have something good to say, don’t say anything at all. But especially if you’re angry or frustrated in the moment, like it’s better to keep your mouth shut. So definitely some of that. Um but like I said, I d I I think I think th I wouldn’t say I’m completely transformed. I still struggle with

Mark:

No, I hear you

Justin:

you know, saying the wrong thing at the wrong time and um again, critique is kind of an Achilles heel of mine and I find you know, like I’ll let little critique slip out and go, Why why did why? Why?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That’s not a hill worth even crossing, much less dying over.

Mark:

And I and I’m with you, I think that Or I was I was thinking uh uh speaking of words, the word maturity comes to mind. Mm. I think, you know, as we grow older to a certain degree or grow in relationship with someone, you know, we tend to we hopefully tend to learn those those aspects where oh shucks that that didn’t have the intended effect that I wanted and if anything it was actually counterproductive to building that relationship. And I think, you know, as we As we I think as we tend to age, we become more mindful of how, you know, our words. I think it’s it can be kind of that accumulation of words. and being able to recognize ’cause I think there’s a lot of things that we might implement or change or do momentarily that we don’t always necessarily reap the the harvest of until you know, a couple years down the road, then we say, Oh , maybe that wasn’t a the right thing to say or

Justin:

Yeah, and that’s

Mark:

and I go ahead.

Justin:

No, you go ahead and do it.

Mark:

Well I was thinking about even, you know, when we think about right and wrong words. uh or right than wrong things to say. I’m I’m minded I’m rem reminded kind of uh of the point. I don’t think I don’t think it’s as much I think we can say most anything that needs to be said. But I think the way we say it makes all the difference in that context when we think of the power of words. It’s not that, you know, I can’t complain about a circumstance. But yet when it comes when it goes towards criticism versus just, you know, when I’m tearing a person down in the midst of my complaint, then I’m then I believe I’m cro we’re crossing a line. And I, you know, and I think at times, you know, in our in our sarcastic world, we don’t always top stop at times to think about, you know. Does that really need to be said in that way?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, I want in here’s a question for you In a minute. Okay.

Mark:

Firewall.

Justin:

Now. Okay.

Mark:

Yeah, yeah. I uh

Justin:

here’s a question for them in a minute. Is there room for criticism in a Not yeah. Is there room for criticism? In and in what context? So that’s something will ruminate.

Mark:

That’s that’s what I’m that’s the future question.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

The now question is going back to uh the question about kind of background or whatever. Do you have experiences where you recognize words that you said that you wish you could take back? That kind of thing. Like you know, as opposed to the ones you experience maybe Um

Mark:

where I said that I could take oh yeah. Oh no, there’d be a number of them, you know. I I could identify with that early, you know, early marriage frustration dynamic, you know, and words I said. And uh I’ll be the other the other transparency. So yeah, that would be, you know, in relationship with Chris. And um I can l I can think back um even as a teenager, there were moments, you know, when it would might have seemed cool in the moment to, you know, disparage my parents, you know, or, you know, yeah, that that’s that’s a tough one because, you know I can still r you know, I respect my parents so much to this day now, but yet, you know, as a teenager, you know, it would it it you could make a joke. of your you know your parents and you know I’m just I’m uh that just kind of gives me the heebie jeebies to uh to a degree at this point to think of it that I would have said what I honestly said back then. And yet recognize who they are and the relationship I have with them now. And there again, I think in some ways that becomes more of a matter of maturity and being able to recognize that, yeah Circumstantially, yeah. I understand it, but yeah, if you could go back, it’s like no, that that would that would not be an utterance again, right? You know, that kind of thing.

Justin:

Which ties right into the maturity that you were saying. I th I I think the truth of the matter is maturity is is seeing what I did that didn’t work and going, Oops, I won’t do that again. Right. So I mean some of those some Some aspects of maturity you don’t get any other way than to walk a bad path and go, not that one again, you know.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

And uh I wish

Mark:

that learning process.

Justin:

I wish you could take that out of the maturity process, but I I just don’t think it’s possible to extract it. I think

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

We learn best from our own mistakes.

Mark:

And I and I think I think those things and here again, I would dare say, you know, like sarcasm or I would even say, you know, like um Uh chauvinism, the some of those things are transgenerational.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, to where it ‘s

Justin:

Well the maturity didn’t quite reach its full potential in the previous generation and therefore you Right.

Mark:

Still use those same words or you say you use words in I’ll call it a negative power.

Justin:

Yeah. Chauvinism, racism.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, a lot of those things. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. I was also thinking you know, you talking about younger days, right? Right. I was thinking about one of my formative memories was I used to have you know, a really good friend growing up, um, probably um gonna I’m gonna go with it’s somewhere between eight years old and fifteen, right? Somewhere in there. I don’t remember. Um, but I’m gonna lean towards the younger where we I I used to go to over his house all the time. He and he had everything. Like they lived at they had horses and they had like four wheelers, like They just they in my mind they and they had this huge, you know, a billion acres and you know uh there was no end to what they had kind of thing. And so in my mind they were kind of invincible.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Right. And so I don’t remember any of the words I used. I just know that um at one point um her his mom called my mom and said, I’m not sure Justin can come come over here anymore.

Mark:

Wow.

Justin:

Because um he you know, he’s out I d and again I don’t remember this conversation exactly what she said, but it’s essentially He tears down my son.

Mark:

Oh wow, sure.

Justin:

And I look back, you know, and I don’t again I don’t remember the words, but I can definitely remember the spirit of like, no, that’s not what my goal was. My goal was to be at his level. Right? Like I wanted to be able to be as cool as they were and he was. I gotcha. And I think as a result I would say, Oh, that’s not cool. This is cool or whatever, that c you know, that whole thing that kids do. Um, and I just remember her telling me that and just being so embarrassed.

Mark:

Mm.

Justin:

Like I got my pants caught down and didn’t know it. You know what I mean? It’s like Uh, ’cause I didn’t know I was doing it and I certainly didn’t want to hurt my friend that way. I felt really, really bad. But and I didn’t know I was doing it. I didn’t realize the power of my own words.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And so I don’t know, that was a pretty formative experience to where you know I don’t yeah, like I think I think, you know, maybe that’s one of those f experiences that kinda triggered me towards Like like that approval dynamic of making sure, you know, people aren’t upset with me.

Mark:

Ah, sure. Yeah.

Justin:

Like I wanna yeah.

Mark:

Speaking of going back into the skeletons there, nice job.

Justin:

Yeah, you know. Yeah. That’s what we do.

Mark:

And I was saying I well uh too and I was as as we were sharing there, I think uh you know, I think I think most as a parent, let’s put it that way, myself as a parent, I would there would definitely be areas, well, especially a homeschooling parent, I can remember times where, you know I might have got frustrated in a moment and definitely said some things to, you know, John or Lizzie, you know, that was I wish I could take back, but you know There again. It was in those moments, not to justify it, but you know, in those moments of uh frustration, I can remember them in the words that you know you wish you could you could undo, you know And I and it’s and that being said, too, I think it’s interesting because you you think about it in a context of relationship. And there’s a there’s a there’s a ten to one principle that just comes to mind as I was thinking about, you know, my my uh areas of homeschooling, you know, and things I’ve said. Um, you know, it it’s basically ten Roughly it can range between fifteen to five depending on the research, but so that’s why they typically go around ten. It takes ten positive interactions to offset every one negative interaction. And I think about that in our in our culture and you know and how often we use sarcasm. And I think at times our ratio just gets completely flip flopped.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

We’ll have ten sarcastic comments before we even have one that’s heartfelt.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That offers encouragement or that kind of thing. And I think, you know, I c I can definitely see that at times in couples. you know, when a couple is really in a negative cycle, you know, and you know, thinking back on your own relationship, you know, in those moments when all I’m doing is looking for the negative things or the things that I think you do wrong. You know, it’s a it’s a it’s a difficult dynamic to come out of. Not that it can’t be done, but of course, you know It’s uh it’s yeah, you gotta be you gotta be mindful. You gotta be, you know, conscious of the power of words because I do believe, you know, it’s like most relationships when they get into that negative cycle, if you’re not able to identify it, it’s that power of words that actually tear the relationship apart.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

You know, where I just I just don’t see the good in you anymore. Yeah. And I’m only seeing what’s from my perspective flawed or that you do wrong. You know And uh if I may, can I segue to the question? You may. That’s a perfect. I was thinking about it. Um

Justin:

I thought that’s what the ten to one was.

Mark:

Well no, the ten the ten to one was kind of part of what you it was a combination of what I had done in combination with the redemption.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. You

Mark:

that you had mentioned, you know, because I d you know it We are human and we’re gonna make

Justin:

yeah you know Yeah, you can have a perfect record of the code. Exactly.

Mark:

Yeah, there is no perfect record in our word choices. Right. And I think about that in the context of even as I was sharing as a parent, you know, I’m hopeful That you know, that that w those I’m hoping that my the times that my words were used in a negative way or a critical way. have been offset you know yeah by at least well however many there were multiply that by ten. Yeah. I hope I had, you know, the ten the the zero at the end that make that offsets that.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, because that that would uh and yet I also re you know realize there’s you know There’s moments where those those were like with your dad. Those mo there’s moments when those words in combination just stick with me because that person you know, at that moment was the authority, or I you know, I saw that person as the authority

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And it and it makes a difference. So that being said, um

Justin:

Well go ahead real quick.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

We’ll we’ll get there.

Mark:

Yeah, yeah.

Justin:

Um, though like you just said, sometimes the combination of what I I think there’s there’s something, you know, speaking of the power of words, when those words connect to an like an inner um inferiority issue or it’s you know some sort of inner

Mark:

insecurity.

Justin:

Insecurity, yeah. When when those word connect to that. It’s like the power that it takes on at that point is exponential. And when I say exponential, I mean like it can repeat for years and years and years. Um because it’s now confirmed in my mind, you know. Yeah. Um that the thing I had a insecurity about or a thing I feared is true.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Not and there’s and we don’t we don’t often have the defenses to go, but maybe it’s not true. It’s like nope, it’s confirmed. Yeah, you know And uh yeah, so I think that that that they’re that that’s part of the power of the words is when they connect to a nerve.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

You know.

Mark:

And I I I agree with that and I think that’s where we do need to be mindful of the words we use because we don’t know when those insecuri wh who those insecurities are. And I it’s it’s interesting, you know, I a minute you kinda shared that You know, even in the sessions that sometimes I’ll do, you know, it’s like I’m I’m I’m honestly trying to be mindful of challenging some patterns or cycles that I see. And it’s funny how oftentimes, even to the degree that I try to do that in a tactful or kind or you know, therapeutic manner. It’s not like I’m, you know, aggressive from my perspective. But yet at times just just that challenging of that pattern or cycle it can be viewed as he’s beaten me up.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I don’t want to go back there. You know? And it’s like Okay. You know, I mean not intentional, but I uh I c I couldn’t see that pothole to a certain degree, and sure enough I drove right over it and never even realized it. But it wasn’t until, you know, feedback comes back from a a spouse or something later on. It’s like, no, that was and you know

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Fortunately there you go.

Justin:

You did the thing.

Mark:

I did. Yeah. I did. You know the thing. And I realize sometimes that I I take ownership of that. Right. But sometimes that’s not all mine to own either. And I have to with those sometimes the words in combination. But that does bring me back to, if you will, um a c a a a little bit speaking of the power of words. um a pet peeve of mine is uh constructive criticism. I don’t I don’t really think there is such a thing for me personally. So, you know, you were asking is there a is there a moment you know, for critique. Huh, you know, I mean I I can see I think there’s let’s let’s let’s if I may based on based on the power of words.

Justin:

This is how you see it.

Mark:

This is how I see it. I think there’s a difference between critique and criticism. And I think learning is better than critique. So if I’m able to help someone learn a different and I don’t necessarily I don’t think I have to tear that person down. And guaranteed that’s my perception of criticism. is kind of tearing down and I think learning is that opportunity to build up. Mm-hmm. And I’m able to say that differently, you know, versus, you know, the difference between here’s what I saw and I’m curious what your thoughts are. versus I noticed you did this and I think you you you need to change that. You follow me? In that process, I you know There again, the power of words.

Justin:

It makes me think of the term calling someone up versus tearing them down.

Mark:

Sure. Right? Sure.

Justin:

Calling them to where they they could be, should be versus

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I don’t think criticism has to be a part of that.

Justin:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mark:

to call someone up. And granted, I mean, are we gonna identify, you know, certain flaws or certain characteristics? you know, and the way those those flaws tend to, you know, either hamper what you do or a relationship, sure. But I don’t, you know, and I and I guess for me the difference between, you know, criticism and learning is, you know, criticism tends to tear someone down. ver were versus call them up. And I don’t have to look down or or put somebody down to call them up.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I and I think that for me that’s that’s a difference. And it, you know, it’s like, you know, for a long time I, you know, it just seemed like Well it’s constructive criticism. It’s like it’s kind of an oxymoron in my perspective, you know.

Justin:

Yeah, my uh similar pet peeve is the compliment sandwich.

Mark:

Sure. Compliment.

Justin:

Right, ’cause that ratio’s only two to one.

Mark:

Yeah, I agree.

Justin:

When it’s supposed to be ten.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So when it’s Two to one, you’re like, I know what this is. All right, let’s get through this good thing. Give me the second part. Yeah, give me the real stuff. All right. What did I screw off? Wrap it up with the other good thing. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Feels very manufactured.

Mark:

Yes, it does.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Um I had a whole train of thought and it just disappeared.

Mark:

Compliment sandwich.

Justin:

Compliment sandwich. No. Criticism. I don’t think it’s gonna come. until you start talking.

Mark:

Okay. That’s usually how it works. So here’s here’s the deal.

Justin:

Oh I remember now.

Mark:

Okay, go for it. Keep it keep it while ’cause I got mine. No problem.

Justin:

Okay. You do? Hell yeah, I’m good. Well I was just thinking about um Sometimes some of the things that we say in here are so counter they don’t seem correct in the sense that they don’t line up with just the way things are. But that doesn’t mean it’s not uh it’s not possible or so in other words, what you’re saying is I don’t think criticism is necessary or helpful. And yet, you know, there’s a multi million billion dollar industry in criticism, right? Movie critics, restaurant critics, and you know They create a certain emb you know set of circumstances to where the best chefs in the world become recognized. You know, the best restaurants in the world, the Michelin stars. you know, movies, you know, m the Oscars, all that kind of stuff. They’re like uh you made it through the gauntlet of criticism. You know what I mean? Like you’re uh bro above you’ve made it above our level of criticism as professional criticizers. Almost like um and so like it’s just it doesn’t even seem right when you say I d Criticism’s n not acceptable, right? It’s like, well how d how does one exist then, you know, without without that? And uh but I that that doesn’t mean I don’t agree agree with you. I’m just kinda thinking it through and I I like what you’re saying and I think As yeah, it’s kinda like the pride thing, right? That we talked about where it’s like you’re like, I don’t think there’s room for pride In or whatever, you know, like whatever that conversation it was like, but the whole world’s built on pride, pride in your team, pride in your nation, pride in your children, pride in yourself, you know, sure uh you know American dream all these things like how do you what you’re saying and doesn’t make any sense and I feel like um that along with this is kind of ties into why uh like God’s kingdom is upside down.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Where the things that work in this world don’t work in that one. And the first is last and the last is first. You know? No, I agree. Some of the some of those things that you challenge that seem unrealistic, I think, are the actual status quo in God’s kingdom. You know what I mean?

Mark:

Yeah. And I think about it sometimes when you as you’re saying that, I think, you know uh To me that that culture of critique or culture of criticism, it’s like I think about if somebody were to, you know uh inspect or you know me at just certain moments you know I’d I’d fail that as well. You know, a a momentary a moment in time. A one moment in time doesn’t necessarily define an entire career or an entire thing for from my perspective, you know. And I think, you know, there are

Justin:

people can have a bad day.

Mark:

Yeah, and people and unfortunately that people rise and fall.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, there’s real people involved in that, you know, when a restaurant is critiqued, you know, that kind of thing. And it’s just You know.

Justin:

And yet you think of the ones that rose to the top is like they they climbed over this pile of criticism to get to the top, you know. Sure. The resilience they had or whatever and I also feel like they probably got a fair share of baggage. Don’t you think to like Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, no, it’s just it’s just interesting to think about and in that process, you know, I there again, words build up and words tear down. And I think, you know, even in yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, and I think I uh to speaking of what yeah.

Mark:

Go ahead.

Justin:

The kingdom, uh think about Jesus in before he died, he told Peter, Just by the way, you are gonna deny me before the end of the night. Three three whole times, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And Peter was just appalled, like, of course I would never d I’m your best guy, like, you know. And uh obviously Peter didn’t anticipate circumstances coming to where it completely threw him off his game to like where you said he had a bad day.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And he kinda lost some of who he was and you know, what he believed in and he was shaken, you know. And I can I think it’s important. I I think we can villainize him in those moments, but I think it’s way better to empathize with him because I you know kinda anyway, he he he deny him three times i when Jesus, you know, in his dire moments or whatever. And then later, you know, when Jesus rose from the dead and they’re having a conversation I love the conversation they had because because he didn’t say, You remember that time? You know, like what’s wrong with you? You know uh that was wrong or whatever and said instead he just said like Peter, do you love me? He said, Of course I do. Okay. Then feed my sheep. It’s like and he repeated that three times to where Peter was becoming defensive. Like, what are you trying to say? And, you know, he was basically calling him up and it wasn’t a critique of what he did or who he was, but it was saying, Let’s move forward from this.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And he you know, he didn’t have to do the cr critique.

Mark:

He didn’t.

Justin:

How did he do that? You know, and I th I I like what you’re saying about um learning and calling, you know, calling people up. That is a skill I desire to get better at.

Mark:

I hear you. And I think we can all improve. And I as I was thinking about um as you describe, you know, that circumstance. What do you what do you think Peter felt in those moments?

Justin:

Well, humility, I think, you know, like embarrassment may is maybe a better answer.

Mark:

Yeah. I think, you know, all of that confusion, disappointment.

Justin:

Yeah, which moments, I guess.

Mark:

Yeah, and I and I think from my perspective, that is where the power of words come into play.

Justin:

Right. Because we ‘re at their most vulnerable.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

That’s when yeah.

Mark:

And we can empathize with all of that and recognize it makes perfect sense and we don’t have to criticize someone. About that, we’re just able to from our own human standpoint recognize shucks. I’ve been embarrassed too. And there’s a big difference between being embarrassed and being sad, you know, and I think, you know, that’s where the power of words come into play. in a lot of cases because there is a difference between being embarrassed and sad and disappointed and humiliated. And I and I think that’s where I think for Chris, you know, that’s where a lot of that comes from is the right word at the right time. to discern I mean to uh define the right circumstance is a powerful thing.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

You know, and I I think that’s what makes I think that’s what makes good writing so difficult Is that moment where I want to say it a certain way and I just can’t come up with the right word. But when I do come up with the right word, it’s like, aha, yeah, that’s the word. And as I’m as I’m thinking about that, if you had to this is a this is a little bit of a trick question, but if you had to think about three words for you. that you know really are important ones. I realize this is a on the spot question.

Justin:

Well you know it’s super weird Is you said three words.

Mark:

Uh-huh.

Justin:

And immediately three words popped into my mind. From a verse.

Mark:

Yeah?

Justin:

Yeah. So I’ll share that even though I don’t know if I don’t know if that’s

Mark:

Yeah, I was just curious

Justin:

answer that I would give it. I just three three words. Very interesting that they popped in my mind.

Mark:

So what are those words?

Justin:

Power, love, and a sound mind. That’s two words, the last one, but that’s what came to my mind

Mark:

Power, love, yeah, and a sound mind. Well, psychoanalyze. Here’s a challenge.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay. Sound mind. Can you put that together in one word?

Justin:

Can you think?

Mark:

Ah, see, there you go.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Nice job. Power of words.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. So power, love, and sanity.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. That’s good. And uh yeah, it wasn’t uh it wasn’t a psychoanalytical moment, but I was uh I was thinking of please, sorry, and thanks.

Justin:

Nice. Yeah. Those are good words.

Mark:

You know, just

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Those those are Yeah

Justin:

again, uh the words the words that came to mind, I don’t know why they They don’t they don’t really tie to it, but yeah, I like it.

Mark:

Yeah, exactly.

Justin:

The power

Mark:

power, love and sanity or sound mind.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Alright, you says please, thank you, and what?

Mark:

Sorry.

Justin:

Sorry, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, those are that that’s that’s your tool belt right there.

Mark:

Well

Justin:

powerful words.

Mark:

Uh yeah. And I think you know, here again, uh I want to recognize there’s a big difference between words and vocabulary.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

You follow me? I think we can have a tremendous vocabulary and know a lot of words But if we’re not using them in a manner that, you know, builds people up.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Or, you know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s not the power of vocabulary.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

That’s a different talk.

Mark:

And yet we can respect you know, people who ha you know we listen to who, you know, it’s like Uh if you didn’t have context, you’d have a hard time. And sometimes even with the context, you’d have a hard time. What was that word again? I need to look that up.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. And I respect that.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But, you know, that in itself, vocabulary, we’re not talking about, like you said, the vo power of vocabulary, but the power of words. And I think, you know Yeah.

Justin:

Ooh.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Just out of a word I looked up the other day.

Mark:

Yeah?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

What was it?

Justin:

Importunity. Do you know what that means?

Mark:

Ooh. I would say it’s an important moment.

Justin:

No, it’s importune. Inopportune.

Mark:

Okay. Go for it.

Justin:

Does not have anything to do with opportunity Got any other guesses? You don’t have

Mark:

uh tunity. Uh I’m thinking of like like a con like a unifying And that but that’s that’s just a word, you know, that’s just import.

Justin:

um continue to ask a thing to where it becomes annoying.

Mark:

Oh, okay.

Justin:

So the impor importity of Someone is someone annoying you to the word. You’re kind of like the persistent widow, right?

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Ah, cool. So the persistent w so it’s another word for persistence

Justin:

Yeah, but almost has a negative context from the hearer’s perspective.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Like it’s that’s that’s one of my favorite things about vocabulary, right? It’s like You have to say all these words to make this one word. Right. Right. Um so if you pick the right word, it really conveys some really important uh nuance, which I think is cool. But like it’s this idea that maybe it’s annoying to the hearer, but maybe it’s valuable Mm-hmm. What’s you know, kinda like the persistent widow, like what’s being nagging comes to mind. But not but nagging is only negative and you think of the person doing the nagging as a nager or like it’s not a it’s almost has this context of But they’re persisting a thing that maybe should be. Sure.

Mark:

I hear you. Yeah, it’s important to the persistent person, but yet the person hearing might not

Justin:

Yeah, snagging doesn’t it doesn’t.

Mark:

Yeah, there’s there’s a reason there’s that word.

Justin:

That’s right. And also I could be uh misremembering what I looked up. It could be m you know. Yeah. But that was kind of what I liked about it. That’s your little uh vocabulary lesson for the day. Power of uh

Mark:

power of love and sound mind. Brought to you by a sound mind.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

If you will um Thinking about the power of words. Mm-hmm. Okay. What would be Some of the th what would be your encouragement to someone as far as being able to implement or being mindful of that power. When you think of power, love , I’m thinking of power of words.

Justin:

Well they’re

Mark:

Yeah, go ahead.

Justin:

There’s different audiences for that.

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

Right. So there’s uh the one audience would be those who just you know, it’ll kinda lack the self esteem, the the to n understand the power of their words and so they just fling them out all over the place, right?

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

And to the degree where They’ve kind of lost some of the power of their words, right? They’re always cussing. They’re always, you know, whatever, complaining. They’re always whatever. Or they uh

Mark:

When you say they’ve lost the power words, help me understand that.

Justin:

Yeah, let me I will one sec. Or they’ve lost uh are they uh they’re dramatic, right? So they they’re always over describing, over dramatic.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

They always do it. Exactly. Those dramatic people. Nice. Wait a way to call me out. No, but you get the point. So like uh there’s different perspectives of like but I think what I mean by lost the power words is that essentially it’s kind of the boy who cried wolf syndrome where uh those words become less potent because they are maybe not as Uh synced with the truth.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Or you know, or they’re overused to the where they’re dull in They’re dull to hear. Yeah. And they’re maybe not believed where, you know, the the wolf did eventually come.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And it was a true saying that that there’s a wolf. At that point, those words were so dull that they were ignored. You know what I mean? So those the power of those words were gone from that boy, right?

Mark:

Yeah. I like it. Because I think, you know, the in the in a in our lives we can, you know, use too many words. too crassly.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and there may come a moment when we want to be able to speak to a situation and we no longer have a authority to do so. Not to the authorities, but you know what I’m saying. We a credibility.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

We’ve lost credibility. And I th yeah. And I think I think that from my perspective, that becomes a lot of what sarcasm can be. Mm-hmm. Because I’ll say something, you know, it’s like, and it’s always it’s typically right on that edge. Yeah. But yet there’s that part of it that comes back and says, Well, is that really a compliment? Yeah. Or was that a backhanded?

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, w one of the big problems with sarcasm is it creates callous, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right. So it’s like there may be truth in there, but I’m ignoring it. Like w you’re just doing their your thing, you know, your sarcastic thing. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um but yeah. I I think but I th no matter the audience, right, whether it’s that person or someone who, you know, is critical Justin, you know, like kind of my like Yeah. Uh or it’s someone who just doesn’t believe in the power of their words. Sure. Um I think For any of that those categories, the encouragement to try the ten to one thing is gonna be a good thing, right? Like let’s say you don’t use your words much, you don’t believe your words have much value and you don’t you know what I mean? Like you just don’t feel heard or whatever. Well start why don’t you try starting to call out some good stuff Around you. Yeah. You know, doesn’t have to be about a particular person even. It can be like, wow, I can’t believe how nice it is today. Or like it’s a little humid, but I really enjoy this kind of weather. Like just some positive things. Or like, wow, your truck looks really nice today. Do you clean it by hand or something? Like how’d you get you know, whatever. Or like, you know, if it if it’s a coworker being like Your hammer swing looks amazing today. I think you find yourself pretty surprised at the impact those statements can make.

Mark:

Yeah At

Justin:

the power, right?

Mark:

Yeah, definitely. And I think that for me when you’re saying, you know, off and on, of course, that scripture of do you not know that the power of life and death are in the tongue? You know, and I I and I think, you know, as a culture at times we’ve lost sight of that.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That, you know, like you were saying, you know, calling people up versus you know, tearing them down. I think that’s the difference between the power of life and death that’s in the tongue. And I, you know, I think we can do that with our kids. I think we can do that with the relationships, you know, in general. It’s, you know, I think we can do that even where, you know, where our, you know, health and, you know, and welfare is, you know, to speak blessing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know. Is I think, you know, that’s that’s the I think there’s so much of our world that we don’t know You know, to the point of the power of words is one of those things. And I think, you know, in a in a created world that was spoken into existence by the power of words. I think, you know, the words we use in this world still have a a a resonating power, if you will, to change circumstances and and bring life versus tear down. And so I think it’s just kind of a yeah, I think that’s just the way the world is designed.

Justin:

Yeah. And

Mark:

we want to speak that way.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. The Bible says we are created in God’s image, right? Sure. So that’s certainly an aspect where I like how you describe that ’cause that resonance of his image in the power of our words

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

To create or destroy.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That’s that’s pretty power of words.

Mark:

Yes indeed.

Justin:

That is a good topic, Chris.

Mark:

Yes, it was Yes.

Justin:

And speaking of words, Chris, you’re awesome. There you go. You’re also awesome with words.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

That’s right. Yeah.

Mark:

Because yes, she definitely is a a writer and someone who I value and the abil her ability to think about what she will say before I’ve learned I’ve learned she’s taught me, you know

Justin:

Also she’s the genesis of the the marxisms. Like by her her uh calling you up to using better words. True is kind of where this whole conversation about marxisms came.

Mark:

You’ve been there for some time.

Justin:

What it means to me is it’s Mark. That’s what it means. But yeah, so it’s it’s uh very appropriate presentation.

Mark:

Yes. So thank you, Chris. Yes, thank you, Justin, and that’s how we see it

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C L I C K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.