Justin:

Go.

Mark:

Nice.

Justin:

That helps me align the tracks.

Mark:

I believe you. I’m all

Justin:

Wake up.

Mark:

I’m all for it. Go, I thought we were breaking. There was a play and I missed it.

Justin:

No, no place. No place.

Mark:

No place.

Justin:

How are you, Mark?

Mark:

I am well, thanks. And you

Justin:

I am well as well.

Mark:

Glad to hear it. Yes. So what’s the status of your kingdom this morning

Justin:

Hmm, that’s a mighty but small one.

Mark:

Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg.

Justin:

This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations.

Mark:

Yeah, so how’s that for a transition?

Justin:

That’s uh that’s I’ll give it a C C plus.

Mark:

Yeah, it wasn’t much of a transition.

Justin:

It was something. It was quick. Um, yeah, we’re talking we’re talking about the kingdom today. Um, and what does that mean for I mean really believers, people who um are trying to live for for for the kingdom of God. Or, you know, there’s so many ways we say that. Living for God is just an example that people say or you know, being a light on the hill, salt of the earth, those kinds of things. There’s there’s lots of metaphors that the Bible uses um for this, but um uniquely we’re gonna speak of the idea of the kingdom, his kingdom and uh you know, other ones, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um

Mark:

Thinking on that, and when you think of his kingdom, our kingdom, how often would you say you reflect on yourself, whether you’re part of a kingdom or in your own realm, how often do you reflect on that for you personally

Justin:

Hmm. I f I feel I feel like uh I would say some somewhat often, but I feel like it comes up in my mind a lot when we do this podcast. And w I feel like we’ve even S reference that. What?

Mark:

Speaking of that, we forgot to pray this morning. But I guess that’s the part that comes to my mind is how often do we actually think about ourselves? as being part of an operational kingdom. With a king, with sir, you know, us being servants and that. It’s just it’s just a thought that crosses my mind. in that process because I think we can lose sight yeah of that. I know I can, excuse me, I can lose sight of that at times. and recognize that, okay, yeah, this this is uh a unique thought.

Justin:

Yeah I yeah, that’s a good question. Uh like to turn back to you. Like, do you is this a a personal point of um You know, devotion, right? Like kind of a thought that comes to mind for you. And what kinds of things trigger trigger those thoughts for you?

Mark:

Hmm I think uh I mean for me uh d definitely in the morning I am aware that I wanna start the day. If If I’m recognizing that I’m a servant of God in this greater kingdom for his good, there is that part of me that seeks to spend time with him each morning. in such a way that seeks the direction for his life. And sometimes I’ll go so far as to, you know, write that down in my journal that, you know, your king, your you’re you reign in my personal life today. You’re king I desire to do what you would have me to do. And that’s a part of my, you know, kind of daily morning routine that tries to keep that perspective in mind, but I’ll I’ll admit I I don’t I’m not well I’m not I wasn’t gonna say I’m not able As of yet, I’m not always willing to hold on to that throughout the entire day

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think, you know, that’s that’s the part that I think is and and I think it’s gonna be different for everyone. Cause some people, if I may say, I mean of course I some people aren’t even gonna acknowledge that there is such a thing.

Justin:

Right

Mark:

as this spiritual realm, this kingdom, but for me personally, I recognize it. It’s a matter of how I go about holding on to it. Or I go about recognizing his kingdom versus the kingdom that I desire to build here on earth. Which I believe, you know, what we do here on earth can have great impact on the greater kingdom of God. But it’s just it’s just uh I will call it a a wrestling, if you will, that I, you know, fall in and out of. throughout the process of a day and depending on how busy my day is, depending on where I’m at in my day, you know, where I’m working, what I’m doing, I think it it makes it easier or harder based on my circumstances. What about you?

Justin:

Yeah, it makes sense. I I think Yeah, similarly for me in the sense that when it comes to um Acknowledging and recognizing that a lot of my prayers are selfish prayers and ultimately I I want what’s right for the kingdom versus my kingdom or whatever. So that that’s I think that’s a pretty common theme uh for me uh in in the quiet time that I have. Um I also think uh it makes me think a lot about quote unquote celebrities, Christian celebrities even in Um, I I recently listened to the Fall of Mars Hill podcast, which is just a really excellent podcast kind of talking about the whole Mars Hill thing and um Mark Driscoll’s kind of influence over just so many people and a lot of what he did he did did in the name of God’s kingdom.

Mark:

Right. Sure.

Justin:

And There was a lot of fallout and a lot of pain. And I also, you know, I’m I look at that whole situation from, you know, the opposite coast and a decade later or whatever, a different perspective, and just say like I think God uses inf you know fallible people to do his infallible work.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And so I do see his kingdom was grown through that movement. Sure. And there’s there’s undeniable proof of that. I also see a lot of fallout and a lot of pain and damage with The truth is, had God um brought some of those people to a different church, let’s say the same number of people were brought into his kingdom or became aware of his kingdom or, you know, decided to finally start doing something about his kingdom, right? Through fifty different churches instead of the one. Um I I I kinda wonder how many of them would have fallout at this point anyway, because we’re human and and every institution is full of humans and and the church is uh uh non-negotiable in God’s kingdom and yet it is full of fallible people m messing up all the time. And what the Bible says is that he’s gonna maintain his church through all of history. Because if he didn’t we would destroy it. We’ve tried so many times, right? Like we’ve we’ve built monstrosities we call church and then they fall apart and a new generation comes in and replaces it. You think of Martin Luther You think about you know the Reformation, that whole thing, you think about even when the Catholic Church was built in the beginning, right? That’s kind of the initial like growth of a big version of the church, right? A kingdom. Um, and then you think about like the various denominations that have come out over time as they say, you know what, n the the churches that exist are not cat you know, speaking to this specific thing uh well enough. So we need to start a new church that focuses on that that tenet, whatever that is, right? So baptism is for Baptists or whatever, and there are other things.

Mark:

Let alone the tendency to go to a non-denominational that tends to throw all of that away, not away, but you know, desire to disregard much of that

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

in such a way that says okay yeah we don’t want to be about that one thing quite so much.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And I would think most non-denominational churches would would say, no, we are about the one thing that matters, right? Like we’re getting back to the core of what matters. Now, every non-denominational non-denominational church has its own flavor and its own bent and has its own specific, you know, missions and all that. And so they do focus on things specifically, whether whether it’s part of their creed or not. Um but yeah, thinking of all of those things and Mark Driscoll, it just gets a little fuzzy in terms of it’s and then you think about the verses that talk about stewardship, right? Sure. And there’s this parable that Jesus tells where The you know, the master leaves a sum of money in three different servants’ hands, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And he goes away for a period of time, several years.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Then comes back and says, okay, what’d you do with the money I gave you? And one servant said, Well, I buried it so no one could steal it, and here it is right back to you. You know, and the next one said, Well, I I get I risk a little bit and I I basically doubled your money, you know. And the th the third one said, Well I what is it, ten X, five X, something like that his money and of course the reward was for the the greater risk and the one that simply buried it out of fear was essentially ba you know, bashed for it or you know, like uh punished.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And so there’s this idea in in the Bible that we are meant to to take what he’s given us, the talents. And I think it’s It’s kind of interesting how right the wording kind of played out over history where talents in the Bible was a literal form of currency.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Back in, I guess, maybe King James Time? I don’t know.

Mark:

A while ago.

Justin:

Or yeah, at some point there there was a word called talents used for a sum of money.

Mark:

Like a shekel or any other form of currency, sure.

Justin:

But it’s i it’s interesting how, you know, over the years in English talents all p also represents our tal talents, right? Our abilities our abilities, yeah.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And so that metaphor just really works nicely for people who English speakers, right? It’s like oh talents. Yeah. We’re not supposed to waste our talents. Yeah. We’re not supposed to bury them. We’re supposed to use them and and and you know, leverage them and Um and I think that I guess wrapping it all back into the personal kingdom. I think there’s an aspect to Taking what he’s given us and leveraging it. Um the key in that story was one was afraid and didn’t do anything with it, and the others, you know, doubled or tripled or whatever. But they did it to double his money, not not to not to somehow skim off the top or build their personal kingdom. It was about, I want to do with my master’s money what is best for him

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, and so I think it it can be fuzzy, but I don’t think it has to be.

Mark:

So help me understand that in our in our modern day dynamic as you see investing. Not in a uh well, investing your as you s look at investing your talents.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Where where would you say if you if I might, where is that line drawn for you personally? as far as leverage. We can think of leverage as a as the ability to lift something we wouldn’t be able to lift by ourselves. But then we can also, I think leveraging can almost have a negative connotation.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Depending on almost a use of.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Where would you say that line is drawn? How do you draw that line personally in that leveraging dynamic?

Justin:

Well, I think it kind of comes back to where we started, which was what do you do to remember the kingdom mark? And what do I you know I would say if if that thought rarely crosses your mind There’s you know, or my mind there’s a chance I’m not I’m kind of missing that

Mark:

um

Justin:

and probably leveraging what he’s giving me for my own kingdom. You know, m is that fair? I don’t know Um, but as far as where do you draw the line?

Mark:

Mm-hmm. Cause I’m well, I I’m thinking of the Mark Driscoll type dynamic. How do how what what is too far? In other words, I re I recognize we’re fallible and so therefore um I think of it in a in a context of zeal. A person can be so zealous that they lose sight of How their desire tends to minimize the value of people And I’m not sure that’s part of that’s a that’s a healthy part of God’s kingdom, but yet I think we can get so zealous at times that we lose sight of that I I even think of Paul, you know, and his you know his his um No, not consuming, but you know, his initi his transformation. He said, you know, basically that persecuting, that’s the word I was looking for, persecuting, you know. early Christians was something he did zealously. And yet he recognized. Yes. Yes. For his original viewpoint of kingdom. And then when his transformation, when he was blinded, that kind of thing by the light, you know, that that transformed. And I’m just, I guess that’s where I’m thinking of it. It’s like, okay. Yeah, I think for me it does come down to a daily reflection because I can get I can admit I can get caught up. in building my kingdom here on earth, and I’m not saying people who are more spiritual than I can’t necessarily build their kingdom on earth in a way that completely glorifies God’s kingdom. But I think there are in our humanness, that’s something we need to be mindful of. And I guess that’s where I’m and I I’m I’m just thinking about it because at times we even if we look back at David, he built a kingdom, but then he went to the point of his kingdom, he grew his kingdom to the point that it was about his comfort. He no was no longer working in service and therefore It was another member of his kingdom, Bathsheba, if you will, is in his moment of, hey, I need to take a break. I’ve built this kingdom. I’m gonna stay back and just kind of enjoy this. And that was part of his downfall where Bathsheba was concerned. You know, and I guess that’s where I’m I’m thinking about it, to serve the kingdom well from a lifetime perspective.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

And I think even as Americans, we can definitely come into this, okay, I’ve been given these talents in a in a uh work environment occupationally And but yet at times my goal can be to reach retirement. And I’m gonna take a break. And I think at times we can lose influence at that point because it’s about okay I’ve achieved it or the or even the man in the Bible who talks about the building a bigger barn. And I guess that’s this kind of stuff that’s coming to my mind is how do we continue to create or build God’s kingdom with God’s help? I think that’s a part of it too, that it’s not us doing it alone for our glory.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And yet, I think in our humanness we can get caught up in that comfort, if you will That’s just uh that’s as we’re as we’re walking through this this morning, I guess that’s a little bit of now you can bring it back and bring some clarity to that as I’ve just kind of

Justin:

Well, you definitely may think of a couple things, but the the bigger barn thing, that parable is I I’m gonna try and paraphrase it and you correct me or where I get it wrong, but essentially I think it’s this idea that this this man was given some talents in in the terms of some uh assets. Maybe it was a he inherited some good assets, I don’t know, maybe he’s just a good shrewd businessman or whatever.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And he got to the point where he said, man, this little kingdom I’m building is working out pretty well. What I need to do next is build this really big storehouse to store all my goodies and Um and you would think that doesn’t sound like a bad thing, like you know, save, you know, there’s a lot those are a lot there’s a lot of principles in there. that I think get lo you know, can get confused with other good principles.

Mark:

But

Justin:

essentially what I think the parable is talking about is this idea that I’m gonna build my kingdom and God you you do your thing, I’m gonna do my thing and essentially saying I’m gonna do this regardless of whatever God’s plans are. And he said, Good luck with that. You know, essentially like we don’t have that option to disregard God’s kingdom because his ov supersedes ours. And if you do things without regard for his kingdom, there’s a you know a very good chance that y you’ll start becoming misaligned in the principles of hit hit truth will start working against you. Um that was kind of my take of that.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Well is it is with the thing.

Mark:

Yeah no that’s that yeah it’s to the point of basically okay I’ve I I’ll say I’ve from that person’s viewpoint, I’ve built this up. I’m gonna build the next one even bigger, and then I’ll just be able to kick back and enjoy the rest of my life.

Justin:

Yeah, and the other thing I was thinking about too is you were saying how do you how w how do you keep from going over the line and you know basically I think one thing that is comforting for me is that there is no line that will mess up God’s kingdom.

Mark:

Hmm.

Justin:

You know, in in that, you know, you can look at this whole Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill thing and go, well, clearly there is, because that, you know, disenfranchised a lot of people. So the word deconstr deconstructing our faith, you know, that’s a that that kind of came out of that movement is this idea of giving back to the fundamentals and or discarding it, right? Um And so I th I definitely think the there again, there’s some fallout there, but I also believe that A, there was a big Very large move of God where people came to him through the ministries of that church. And B, the fallout is not the end of the story.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And, you know, I’ve been involved in celebrate recovery for so many years and hearing testimony after testimony, you know, every other week, right? Just so many opportunities seeing so many opportunities where God turned, you know, ashes into beauty and fallout into you know, a new structure, a new thing. You know what I mean?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And so I I guess I’m not worried about that part.

Mark:

And

Justin:

some people might be like, what’s wrong with you? or whatever. I’m just saying like I’ve I’ve seen enough proof to know that God can use the garbage stuff to then uh

Mark:

what we call garbage.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. To to turn into beauty. And so um So all that being said, like in terms of how do I not cross the line and mess up his kingdom, I’m guess I ‘m I’m not worried about messing up his kingdom. I’m just m worried about missing the boat.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know what I mean? Like I want to be part of that kingdom because that is the forever kingdom. That’s you know, and that’s what he’s He’s called us to. We are citizens of that kingdom. Uh if I go off and do my own thing and build my storehouses and r retire, like that boat’s gonna keep moving and I won’t be on it. Now, I don’t think that translates into, you know, salvation and I lost my salvation and I won’t make it to heaven. I think it just kinda miss it’s like burying the the talents he gave me and sitting on them and versus using the the leverage that he’s given me. Um

Mark:

and I guess that’s where I’m coming from. I’m not, you know, for for me, I guess, if I was answering my own question on the line I think there would be an aspect of sensitivity to that.

Justin:

Yeah. Being aware that it could happen.

Mark:

That it could happen. That it’s a possibility. And that, you know, because I I think when I reflect on you know my kingdom and I I think at times I would dare say my kingdom can be in conflict with God’s kingdom Even if I don’t necessarily recognize it. Because I think when I think about God and his kingdom, he’s a good king. And therefore, what he provides is sufficient for me daily. You follow me in that context? And I think our time when when my mind starts shifting I start thinking about my provision providing for myself for years to come Kind of like the guy with the barn. It’s about self-sufficiency at that point versus

Justin:

preservation.

Mark:

Yes. Yeah. And I’m and I’m starting to think about, okay, the obstacles in life. and recognizing, okay, how can I insulate myself from those things? And how can I predict the market, if you will, in such a way that I can just continue to maintain this lifestyle. indefinitely.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Until I run out of energy.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I I think that’s where, you know, I guess that’s where I would use that line dynamic is where does that shift? How does that How does that become part of my thinking that I transition from this, okay, God Every day is your bread is given to me, you know, to this point of okay, no, God, you you go over there, I got this from here, and I can provide myself. indefinitely and you just take care of other people. Not that I would want to go there, but you understand I can I guess I see that as a possibility and I want to be mindful of that.

Justin:

Yeah. Well even in that parable I think he provides an answer after it, right? He said, when you make these plans, say if the Lord wills, right? Something like that.

Mark:

Go here and make some money and that’s where it says and the next part is no, you should say if it’s the Lord’s will, we’ll go here and we’ll do this because what is your life but a vapor I think it’s first Peter four seventeen in that range. Uh don’t c don’t quote me on that. But it’s you know, what who are you and what is your life? You’re but a vapor.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And it’s the person that doesn’t do what he knows he should do. that is sin. You follow me? And I think the parable is about, you know, it it kind of ends in that part, you fool you. You know. You’re you think you know and you but your very life may be taken from you tomorrow. And it’s like it’s still kind of that vapor dynamic But yeah, it’s I think those are the little bit separate from my perspective.

Justin:

Yeah, I couldn’t remember, but yeah, thank you. Yeah The and if there’s any fact checkers listening, you can fix all of our final references. But the principles are there, right? And the th this idea that you know you planning your own kingdom is is Not guaranteed to succeed. It’s also not guaranteed to fail, and uh that’s not what the point of the parable was. It was just separate separation from you know what he’s doing is um the other thing I was thinking about too with the Mark Driscoll thing um like I think it was it was I wanna say it was Paul.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

And they said, you know, the these other people are preaching in Jesus’ name.

Mark:

Hmm.

Justin:

Is W what should we do about them? He said, Well, if they’re you know for us, they’re not against us, right? That kind of idea. Um and is uh he wasn’t willing to declassify them to say, no, they’re not They’re not acceptable preachers of the gospel because X, Y, or Z. You said, well, they they preach in for Jesus, okay, then then they’re okay by me.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And uh It’s cool to kind of see that example right in the Bible in the sense to recognize that Mark Driscoll said and did a ton of things wrong, but there’s also a lot of people that heard the gospel and came to to sure to Jesus because of his preaching. And again, there’s some fallout there, but I think that the number of souls that will go to heaven as a result of that ministry. Yeah, you know, I don’t know about the end justifying the means, but I certainly am glad that those souls have an eternal destination in heaven versus the Alternative, right?

Mark:

Yeah, and I th and I think about it in that in the context you shared, you know. I think it was the disciples as they were, you know these people are going about doing this, you know, and and y using your kind of your name, you know. And I think unfortunately w in our humanness, we can think of the kingdom in a very territorial way. To the point that I’m doing the real work for God’s kingdom and what you’re doing isn’t isn’t part of it. But I think from my per my true perspective is What you do for the kingdom is what God’s calling you to do. And I think you need to be about that. Even if it’s different than the the talents that I’ve been given to use in such a way And I and I think, you know, that’s what makes us ministers of the gospel to a certain degree is when we all take our talents in all of our occupational dynamics. And we use that to glorify the kingdom. Because I think we can be kind of territorial or or even hierarchical, if you will, that what I’m doing is more important than what you’re doing.

Justin:

‘Cause we want to sit next to Jesus. John and

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the two brothers there. The sons of Zebedee. Yeah.

Justin:

The mom’s like, Can we get these guys to sit next to you in heaven?

Mark:

Yeah, one at your right and one at your left.

Justin:

We’re all kind of doing that, I think.

Mark:

At times.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I and I like uh I was thinking about it a little more as you uh you mentioned the um the fear dynamic. Um and uh where I was asking about the line and I think that is a that is connected because I think we can be so fearful about like the like the lesser servant who was given one talent. We just take it and say and bury it. And I think there is something to be said for, you know, what is it? It’s uh bold prayers honor God and God honors bold prayers. You know that aspect of him knowing our heart. in this process of going forward and yet we we aren’t gonna do it perfectly.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

And yet I don’t believe he’s calling us to do it perfectly. He’s just calling us to go forward in faith, recognizing that, yeah, there will be, I believe we all have our Mark Driscoll moments, if you will. the thing that made Mars Hill what it was was because it was such a large kingdom, if you will. And and it and that drew attention. you know, in our current cultural marketplace.

Justin:

Large kingdom with the loud king.

Mark:

Yes. Yes. And I and I think, you know, there again, kind of like you said about the fifty churches I think that happens on a smaller scale quite often.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And we’re just unaware of it.

Justin:

A very common uh kind of tra tra back historical trauma for a lot of believers has to do with trauma in the church and different things. That that’s not uncommon.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Um, it’s more common. It’s painfully common, right? Where’s people were hurt in the church and as a result carry around wounds the rest of their life. Um Because we’re just stinking human and we mess up and like you said, we’re about doing our part for the kingdom and sometimes we’re we’re trying to do our part on smashing us others out of the way and sometimes like you said critiquing you know we’re we’re on both sides of the wall building the wall of the kingdom and we point at the other one go pfft Look at him.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

He doesn’t know how to build a wall. He’s putting on the whatever wrong or and instead of doing our job and focusing on that, we’re you know, tearing down others or comparing or Or competition, like, oh, he he’s pretty quick at building a wall. I think I can go build a little bit quicker and a little bit better.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I think the m the master will approve of mine a little bit better. Even though his is okay, I think I can do you know Like we’re just we do that. We’re we’re humans.

Mark:

Is there a competition in the kingdom?

Justin:

Well, I would say no. But I definitely think we feel that. Um because we bring it’s our flesh, right? Our flesh is the thing that kinda makes the kingdom messy.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Which is why Tesla said you should pray that the king this earth will be like the kingdom in heaven, right? Like as things are in heaven that they’ll be that way on earth. In other words, our flesh is Settled. Right.

Mark:

Yeah, and I think it is that I know it’s not first Peter uh I know that verse in First Peter, so I know the other one wasn’t First Peter, but still that, you know, that humbling of ourselves. is what minimizes our an uh our b or makes our ability to cast our anxieties. And I think competition becomes a part of that.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

anxiety, it’s like, am I doing it as good as someone else? But when I’m able to humble myself to a certain degree And recognize this isn’t about my kingdom, it’s about God’s kingdom, and what you’re doing is just as valuable as what I’m doing, that takes away that anxiety. And I think that’s an important part when I, and that’s where I guess where I’m asking for us. I think we can get so caught up in productivity. from our perspective and we lose and it we can be more about the 99 than the one. You follow me? It’s it’s more the numbers the numbers become so important when we get caught up in the competition dynamic.

Justin:

No, that’s a great point. Obviously the parable about Jesus going to get the the one when and leaving the ninety-nine shows that he cares about the individual.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know, mo if not more as much as The collective, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I think the idea there is that the collective will take care of itself. You know, obviously in the spiritual realm, God’s got that and the one. Like he has all power. But he’s yeah, I think just his his display of care for the individual is I think meant to be a model and with kinda to your point, like we’re not meant to be hurting the one in order to, you know, gain the 99. But I kinda wanna so if you don’t mind, I kinda wanna transition this from this idea of church ministry

Mark:

,

Justin:

uh theology, uh you know, people in in churches, uh, you know into like what does this mean for real life and for sure for Bob who goes to work at the steel m steel mill and and for me I’m a you know web developer slash manager that kind of thing like How does this tie into real life? And am I if I’m out here, you know, building houses, am I am I missing the boat? Am I not, you know, building his kingdom? I’m building a literal house, so I don’t have time to build his kingdom. In other words, you know, I’m I’m not an usher at church. I’m not a you know, I don’t volunteer in some aspect. And can this still be a reality for for me, uh that guy? You know what I mean? Um Well, there ‘s the there’s the question for you, Mark.

Mark:

Yeah, that’s the question for me. Can and uh it’s interesting you say that because I believe, yes, that You know, no matter what my occupation is, I can be a part of building God’s kingdom with all the people that I interact with from that vein of life, if you will. And I think in a lot of cases, and this isn’t this isn’t anything against the church, I think, you know, there are many who use their occupation to bring others just as much as many pastors would, you know, in a church setting. And that’s nothing against those who work as pastors. Don’t get me wrong. But I think of it even with Paul, you know, he he hooked up with some other tent makers and that was a part of his, you know, ministry that they would, you know, kinda, you know be tent makers and then they’d they’d you know teach in the you know the temple on the weekends you know as part of who they were and I and I For me, that is an aspect of, okay, yeah, my occupation is my current ministry. And that’s not to here again, that’s not minimizing those who are called to ministry. But I believe we’re all called to a ministry versus the ministry, if you will. And I and I think that um I think it’s important that Bob, Justin, Mark, Joe, you know , Sue, you know, that we don’t lose sight of the fact that what that God is calling us to our own kingdom building right where we’re at Whether it’s cutting hair, teaching kids, you know, that kind of thing, I believe everybody has their kingdom building opportunity, if you will, right where they’re at. And I and that’s the other part of it. I think they’re this whole dynamic of Well, I think of teachers especially, you know, and this governmental dynamic that basically says, you know, we’re not allowed to talk about Jesus in school You know, and I really feel for those people who are caught in that dynamic because they feel that conflict and they feel that anxiety, if you will. Well, I can’t share my faith. And it’s like I think there’s gonna come a day where it’s gonna be a lot more difficult for us to build the kingdom based on persecution, if you will. But I do think that’s just another aspect of kingdoms in conflict. And I think, you know, even in your question, w that’s it will likely be more difficult from my perspective for the average um employer or business person to be able to do their business, you know, in a Christian-like manner or with a, you know, very much open Jesus follower dynamic. And I think, you know, we need right now is the time to be saying, okay, yeah, this may get more difficult. Because I think there is a part where our um in our building of our kingdom we we can tend to forget that there are two kingdoms in conflict. That are part of what we experience here on earth. There’s God’s kingdom and then the, you know, Satan’s kingdom. And those are very much opposed to one another And I think, yeah, that’s I don’t want to go too far down that track, but that would be how I would walk through that to where Yeah, I think there’s gonna be some shifting that occurs in the days that lie ahead, biblically speaking. And it’s gonna be important to be mindful of, okay. Do I continue to build my kingdom here on earth and do what I need to be comfortable here? Or am I mindful that this isn’t the end? And I’m thinking about God’s kingdom and the future that lies ahead and how I’m serving that in a way that is obedient versus comfort because I think it those two can be in conflict and it but it’s a indicator to me. Go ahead.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

There’s definitely some thoughts you want to challenge there and that’s okay too.

Justin:

No, not challenge at all. Just uh add two.

Mark:

Yeah, that’s fair enough.

Justin:

First Corinthians ten thirty one says, whether you eat or drink or whatever you do to offer the glory of God. And we memorized that as a basketball team in high school ’cause my coach means mem memorized that and we would say it before every game. And it was his way of saying, remember when you go out on the basketball court you’re a reflection of the kingdom you’re part of, you know?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And um and it’s but I just think about that. There’s two sides to that There’s the there’s the command side where we’re meant to be obedient, which is I need to live my life in a way that can bring glory to God. But there’s also the flip side that he’s saying you can just eat And you can just drink and still bring me glory. Because I created you.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I built you exactly the way you were and to drink the way you do and eat the way you do it. You know what I mean? That I don’t think we often think about that side of it is that he is pleased with our very existence. And we don’t have to be standing on top of a you know soapbox inside of the the the the courtroom or whatever or the

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

The the what do you call that? The meeting room right at your corporate offices.

Mark:

I gotcha. Yeah.

Justin:

Conference room.

Mark:

Conference room. There you go.

Justin:

You don’t have to be standing on a soapbox there preaching the gospel to bring him

Mark:

glory. Sure.

Justin:

You can just be a person of integrity. You can be a person who’s supportive and loving. You can be someone who’s kind and not, you know, critical. You can be someone who’s not competitive, but instead builds others up to your own detriment, right? Like There’s so many ways to build his kingdom that for people who are not evangelists to still build his kingdom.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And one of those ways is doing your craft well.

Mark:

Hmm.

Justin:

And I think uh again often I I don’t think that message gets preached often enough. Which is doing your craft well with that idea in mind that like I’m building this because I’m part of a his kingdom and I’m doing it for his glory.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Like I think that brings him So much glory. He doesn’t need you to be preaching. Now, if he’s called you to, he does need you to, right? Like there ‘s there’s there’s a difference between callings and I understand that. And but I really think there are many m Many, many, many, many people who are just blue-collar workers have no interest in being in the choir or being an usher or you know, preaching or, you know, at Celebrate Recovery, you know, teaching there every other Friday night. What like whatever that thing is. But they show up at work and they do their craft well and they ha they’re a person of integrity and They don’t take the bait when they have opportunities to cheat

Mark:

or

Justin:

or uh s you know, steal in one sense or another. Like You know what I mean?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I think all of those things are opportunities to build his kingdom and to bring him glory versus only the m the the the special magical ones that are preaching or evangelizing or you know what I mean?

Mark:

I do.

Justin:

And I think like you said, as it becomes more difficult to preach using our words, it will become that much more important to know how to preach using our actions.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, and I think that’s something that we take for granted now. Um that well I can just talk to them about Jesus and I think sometimes we maybe lose track of the fact that our actions matter so much

Mark:

and

Justin:

If you ever do get around to talking to them about Jesus, they are not interested because they’ve seen who you are in that context and in that context and they don’t align, so why should they trust anything you say, right? So all that being said, I think every one of us are called to do what we’re called in the moment, whatever it is, whether you eat or drink Do it for the glory of God, you know? And I also think about like the craftsmen that he talked about that built the temple and the tabernacle. There’s no mention of their spiritual spirituality of how spiritual they were, and yet they are named in the Bible as being people of importance. in the building of the most important building project of all history, the place where God’s spirit was going to dwell and meet you know the kingdom. Um, I think there’s s that’s significant, right?

Mark:

No doubt.

Justin:

That there there were people at that time that did their craft so well that only that single person in all the earth could do this job.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And they did it immaculately. Right? And it’s talked about in the Bible. And I just think sometimes again we lose sight and we think about the priests and the Levites and the the coats. that they had to wear with all the stones. Like just all of the process of the temple and like that’s we’re trying to replace that with our modern day equivalents with pastors and whatever. But we forget about the craftsman who built the temple.

Mark:

And it’s interesting you uh the way you said that. Only one person on earth and immaculate Mary came to mind for me. You know, to where it’s not even necessarily always about the craftsman, the blue-collar worker, the executive. It’s about kids

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

It’s about teenagers.

Justin:

That’s good.

Mark:

You know, it’s about, you know, anyone who knows Christ And at that point, they become part of this exponential kingdom.

Justin:

You’re in.

Mark:

Yeah. You’re in, and therefore you can begin. to enter into this process of kingdom building, whether you’re a seven-year-old, seventeen-year-old, or you know, 70-year-old. You know, that the I I really appreciate what you bring from that every person has their component of the kingdom. that they are able to build. And even if I may, not in a in a guilt sense, but that every person has that opportunity to build.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Some of some of the people I think of you know growing up in life that I respect the most are those who probably themselves would say, Oh, I’m nothing in the kingdom and I you know, I’ll shut this kind of thing. And yet they just live a life of integrity and everyone knows it and they’re just a beautiful person and you just look at them and go, Man I wish I could be like that person. You know, I don’t think, man, I could wish I wish I could be like Mark Driscoll. You know what I mean? It’s like, but you think of that, that kind of that humble person who goes to work and just shows up and is is Jesus to everyone they meet and Yeah. You know what I mean?

Mark:

I do.

Justin:

Um, that’s just so laudable and yet that person isn’t thinking, Oh, I’m you know, yeah all that they’re usually thinking the opposite and I think there’s something to be said for that humility, even if you are amazing at what you do, even if you are, you know, the the a great preacher or a a great carver of stone and build something for the temple. Whatever that or you’re Mary, right?

Mark:

Yeah, yeah.

Justin:

Um, there’s something about that humility of recognizing, oh, I’m part of this grand scheme, the kingdom.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I get to be part of that and I’m gonna work on this little corner of the kingdom and that person’s working on that corner. Um

Mark:

yeah.

Justin:

And you mentioned children too and I don’t know, we we uh I we heard a message a few years back where he basically said, uh actually it was Pastor Troy, I don’t know if he was quoting um something or if this is something he researched, but He talked about Billy Graham’s parents, right?

Mark:

And

Justin:

what he ended up kind of bringing out of that was some of you, you know, are called to be Billy Graham. Some of you are called to be Billy Graham’s parents. And that just hit me in like square in the face, like wow. Like my whole life I’ve been thinking about how you I’ve been thinking about doing ministry my whole life and how I you know just f felt feel called so to speak and recognizing like I think sometimes I miss the forest for the trees. Like I I I think, oh I need to be doing all that. The 99 when God said, no, there’s the one right in front of you, your children. You know, and they have you don’t know that they’re not gonna 2x whatever you’re doing. And you need to l invest in that, right? Invest in in your family as a parent, recognizing that that might double your the the the talents that God gave you when he comes back and he goes, look at that. You got three kids, you you 3X ‘d your return.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I’m like, well what about the thing I did at Celebrate Recovery. What about he’s like, no no no, this this is plenty, you know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I think for me personally sometimes. that becomes a sobering reminder and something that I now try to incorporate as a reminder in my life, you know, on a regular basis of like how Are you treating this part of your kingdom? You know how to think of his kingdom.

Mark:

Are you stewarding your kingdom? Yes. The one that you’ve been given.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

No doubt.

Justin:

But I just I really like the idea uh that we are given opportunities to be excellent at certain things. And like you said, sometimes it’s parents, right? Like the excellent example of a parent and you look at them and go like wow I want to be a parent like that. You know, and sometimes it’s crafting, you know, carving stone and sometimes in my case I like to think it’s the code I write, you know, like I feel like I’m crafting it. I I just really care about it and I treat it as if I’m that guy, you know, preparing to build the temple. Like that guy was really good because he had spent decades crafting, right? And build building his craft and even apprenticing before that. Um and so I like to think that the code I write s that way too, whether I end up coding for the temple or not. is not really the point, but just knowing that like that’s a craft that I’m able to do for his glory and it may may or may not reflect on him the way I want it to, but I’m gonna write it as if it does, d if that makes sense.

Mark:

Makes perfect sense. Do everything you do.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I think that’s just a really fun thought for me. Cause it’s like, well, I don’t have to be, like I said, out preaching. This matters too.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

Yeah. That life of integrity is is an important dynamic opportun or it’s a dynamic opportunity we’re given to be able to be mindful. And I and it’s uh Yeah, I appreciate your uh your clarification, maybe even on some of my my line thinking. Where is the line too far? But I think, you know, it is in for me personally, it is in that dynamic where I tend to shift from the bigger kingdom to my kingdom and what I want to do or what I’m I should be doing or but there is a I want to recognize there is a I believe there’s a peace, if you will , that we can have when we’re mindful that we’re we’re Not just, but we’re part of a kingdom that is moving on. It’s not going to end. And what I do, but still what I choose to do can make a difference. And I think that’s, you know, because it’s not if I’m starting to feel that anxiety, if I’m starting to feel that pressure, that competition. For me, I might need to pull back a little bit because I think my focus has suddenly shifted, or not suddenly, but maybe over time. shifted.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think, you know, each life cycle stage is an opportunity for that to happen.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and you bring up the kids. You know, it’s like well, what do I do when I get to empty nest? You know, because in our audience there’s gonna be people who

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

so what do I do with that transition, you know, because I’m not necessarily working on building my family so much. And now but and I have these extra resources, you know, because I’m not, you know, funding my children so much anymore, you know, in that process. And it it’s just interesting to think about how I have this opportunity throughout my life to continue to reflect on whose kingdom I’m about and what does that mean for me today.

Justin:

today and

Mark:

yeah

Justin:

and for this month and this year and

Mark:

yeah

Justin:

yeah yeah it’s good yeah I think one last final thought for me, um, too, is I think in the last couple years I’ve really been trying to figure out the the balance between um so like doing worship for instance. You are up on a stage in front of people and there is an aspect to doing your instrument well and your whether that’s your voice or your your in actual instrument. And so there is this desire to do it well. But in that desire to do it well, it’s like this reflection process of did I do it well or not. And sometimes you say, yes, I did it well.

Mark:

And

Justin:

it becomes difficult to remember why you’re up there. It can become difficult to remember why you’re up there and instead be focused on the sound instead of the spirit, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um and I think One of the things I’ve been slowly I think learning is this thing that God uses that too

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

And it is the same answer as all the other things, which is continually remembering what kingdom I’m about. So I want my voice to sound better, but I want it to sound better for his kingdom. You know what I mean? And remembering that. And that it might sound like even like unbelievable to some people, like, oh you just you know, it’s it’s about your own kingdom. It’s like, well yes, it’s both.

Mark:

Mm.

Justin:

And I think that’s part of it. You know what I mean? I think when we bring glory to him. There’s uh gonna be very many times where it also brings us a certain amount of credibility and us a certain amount of

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um effervescent or whatever, you know, like it

Mark:

accolades.

Justin:

It’s supposed to set us apart. It’s supposed to make us, you know, you think of the Daniels in the Bible, and you think of Joseph. When we do what God wants us to do, there’s a good chance we’re going to stand out in a good way. So just remembering like that’s part of this whole equation, and you still have to put that on the altar. too and like

Mark:

say

Justin:

okay I see that now I’m getting more accolades or I’m not or so you know maybe they don’t didn’t like what my singing sounded like and does that matter for the kingdom Okay, no, because I think I’m still called to do this. So I’m gonna keep working on my craft, keep working on what I do, regardless of whether that person dislikes it or this person said I did an amazing job. It’s not about either of those things, even though this one feels good and this one hurts really bad. You know what I mean?

Mark:

I do. Yeah. Continuing in the faithfulness of with the opportunity you’ve been given and doing that to the best of your ability with God’s glory for God’s glory. Not being caught up in the perfection.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Just being in the obedience, I think, is a yeah

Justin:

And recognizing that there’s a chiseling that’s happening, right? Like when I’m like for instance the singing thing and so you know, you hear enough accolades then pride is very easy to come r right in and so a few critiques here and there is a good opportunity to chisel some of that pride away and go you’re not all that. You know what I mean? And I think that’s a balance that’s important and Yeah, I don’t want to need that balance. I want to just be humble, but I I recognize the reality too of like I’m human and the flesh is easily wooed.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think it I think it are those who may have the chisel are quite often the people who have gone before us and know the the shortfalls maybe at times to avoid or did you ever think about doing it this way? And that becomes a part of our learning to be able to do what we do better as craftsmen for the kingdom.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Thanks for sharing, Justin.

Justin:

Thank you for sharing.

Mark:

This is how we see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot click Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.