Mark:

Morning Justin. Whoop morning Justin. Whoop morning Justin. Whoop morning Justin.

Justin:

That’s impressive It sounded like a actual broken record.

Mark:

I tried.

Justin:

Well done.

Mark:

Hey.

Justin:

Sounds it sounds like you must have heard broken records growing up or something.

Mark:

Very much so. The only thing I was the only thing that was missing was the static.

Justin:

Oh yeah.

Mark:

Good morning, Justin. Good morning, Justin.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s pretty good. That’s pretty good. Uh yeah, so what are we talking about?

Mark:

Well, you know what? We’re talking about an important topic this morning.

Justin:

One of the most important.

Mark:

This is this is one of your I as I’ve come to know you This is this is a Justinism.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Let’s I’m just not trying to be defensive or, you know, offensive even for that matter.

Justin:

No.

Mark:

But this is this is. This is a we’re talking about adjustinism this morning. Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations.

Justin:

And I call it the stick. And I’ve had some conversations recently with different people and I just keep referencing this thing and you know what? I’ve been workshopping it.

Mark:

Have you?

Justin:

Well just in that I’ve been uh I’ve been talking about it a lot.

Mark:

Oh, I thought maybe you were developing a workshop around the stick that you were going to

Justin:

workshopping. You know, that’s like uh they they they talk about that like with comedians. Like they’re workshopping their material. Uh like trying to hone in on the what what works the most effective. Um I was about to say I’ve been working sh workshopping a better name, but you know I haven’t come up with a better name. Okay. So it’s just The stick.

Mark:

The stick? So tell me about the stick.

Justin:

The stick. Alright. So I have this philosophy.

Mark:

Okay

Justin:

Where uh every gift that we have, every talent, every whatever, tends to be tied on the other side, and I call it the stick and I hold my hands up like I’m holding the stick, right? Sure. One end tends to be a positive thing in our life, and it’s usually attached to another end of the stick, which tends to be a negative aspect of our life.

Mark:

In your other hand.

Justin:

In my other hand. But it’s no it’s one stick.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And the key component tied together. Yes, exactly. The key component to this stick, which again, man, we need a better name than stick, Mark.

Mark:

Wow, I I hate to say it, but it sounds like a continuum in some ways.

Justin:

It does, yes, yes. Uh right. The key component to this stick though is that they are attached. There’s no detaching it.

Mark:

Sure. Um

Justin:

And why that is so significant is that, you know, and and again, a lot of this comes from the background of being around recovery for many, many years. We ha we come to find these negative characteristics, these negative traits that we have, right? Sure. And it becomes our goal to abolish them, completely gone, out of our life. And, you know, something like addiction you truly want gone out of your life. Right. So I’m it’s not necessarily about habits or kind of the surface things. It’s more about the under an under the surface type things. So Um, you know, an anxiety is an example of one. Um people pleasing, you know, sure can be another example. Where we have this desire once we figure out that we have it to just Get it gone. It get it out of my life. I’ve never I don’t want to be that person anymore. So

Mark:

point of clarification. You were talking about our character defects.

Justin:

Yes, thank you.

Mark:

Okay. So Are you saying addiction is a character defect or anxiety is a character defect?

Justin:

That’s a good question. Um You know Yeah. It’s I’m gonna be careful about how we define defect because part of this conversation in the stick is to recognize that Some of these quote unquote defects are just part of who we are. And try as you may and do the work that you can, some of these things are going to be they’re built into your character, your personality. I would even say personality over character, ’cause there’s this idea that everyone has these certain personality character characteristics. that kind of defined who you are as a personality. Um and I also it’s the word defined scares me too a little bit. Cause you know, we never want to just say you can’t change and I’m I I guess I don’t want to go so far as to say you can’t change, but character is something that you build and you work on, right? So character defects are basically things that kinda undermine your character, right?

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Um

Mark:

But the would you say would you say they are still learned or is it something that’s innate, something that we’re born with?

Justin:

Yes. I think both.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

I think they can both happen. Okay. I’m not sure. I’m trying to dec again, this is very much workshopping this time. Well, that’s why we’re doing this. And I’m and I’m not trying to I think it’s this is a mental exercise you can do where you can plug in any strength and any weakness. Okay.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Um and see if it sticks. If it doesn’t stick, don’t use it. Use a different stick if it doesn’t stick. You know that reminds me of my favorite dad joke.

Mark:

Yeah? What is your favorite dad joke

Justin:

That’s terrible.

Mark:

I know it.

Justin:

What’s brown and sticky?

Mark:

A stick.

Justin:

A stick, yes. All right. Moving on. The point is it’s a oh uh a mental model, right? It’s something you can kinda c take plug things into and see c you know, see how it calculates, right? And s kind of see if the the model fits. And then if so, you have a a tool. Um A lot of television recovery is built on different mental models and they don’t apply they don’t all apply to every single thing, every single situation. Okay. Right? So again, it’s character defects, even that term, that’s that’s a key uh term in recovery, like trying to remove our character defects. Um But even that, uh, in some cases, like I said, we need to have grace for ourselves and recognize that my tendency t for instance towards depression or whatever is I don’t know if some if it’s something I can eradicate from my life. So there needs to be some grace there to understand that that quote unquote character defect um Maybe one of those thorns in the flesh that Paul talked about where you pray for it to go away, you do the work for it to go away and it still kind of comes creeping around and you can’t quite identify uh the door it walks through, right? To like get rid of that door or close keep the door closed and locked or whatever. Um Yeah, so back to the stick thing.

Mark:

Yeah. And I was thinking about it from a character , that’s where I’m coming from, is a character defect dynamic. And I’m thinking about in that left hand if we say that’s where our negative character is.

Justin:

Alright, so my left hand is always the strength. So we you gotta f I don’t know why.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

But we we gotta we gotta fix that

Mark:

Okay. So you’re right overmarked.

Justin:

Right hand is the yeah, it doesn’t make sense. But I don’t know why. It’s always I’m always

Mark:

if it’s it’s your model though, Justin. So the right procedure is our negative character defects Yes? Yep, you got it. So in my right hand, I have what I consider these negative character defects. And you alluded to depression, you alluded to anxiety. that kind of thing. And I’m and I’m and I’m thinking about that in a from a negative standpoint. And I’m still thinking it from my mind, I’m thinking, okay. Is anxiety always a negative thing?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Or is and I guess that’s where um let’s recognize it can be connected.

Justin:

Yeah Let me explain the mental model a little bit m better because it’s not about first defining it’s more about defining kind of a neutral characteristic that you have. Okay, so let’s let’s name an example.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Perfectionism.

Mark:

Fair enough.

Justin:

I’m a perfectionist, Mark.

Mark:

Yes, you are.

Justin:

All right. So let’s let’s take this and apply the stick mental model to it. Sure. What are some of the strengths and positives that come as a result of being a perfectionist? Go ahead.

Mark:

Perfectionists are great editors.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

In other words, they know how they they just can uh mistakes come popping to the surface when their eyes pass over ’em. Mm-hmm. Um on the other end.

Justin:

What are some other strengths? Is that the only strength?

Mark:

Well, I think that’s one of the greater strings. That’s fine.

Justin:

Let’s move on. On the other end.

Mark:

On the other end, um That desire for perfection can tend to make people critical of other people.

Justin:

Which can some of those knock-on effects is relational problems, right? Sure. Maybe maybe you don’t have many good relationships because b

Mark:

in that mid not the middle, but with that critical part, I think it’s always it’s easy to um And it’s hard to encourage people. Let’s put it that way. Kind of that that 10 to 1 positive to negative interactions. I think, you know, when I am critical or when I tend to be critical, it’s harder to have the ten positive, you know, affirming conversations before I have the one negative. So I think it can lead to, you know, a more critical spirit. I just tend to see, you know, what’s wrong with everything around me. Or you for that matter.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so what I like to do in these conversations is take this mental model and the stick. Yeah.

Mark:

Beat him into submission until you change. This is how I see it. Thoughtful conversations and beat them with a stick.

Justin:

Maybe I do like the name the stick. It’s multifaceted. No, so like uh we’re talking in in some cases we might be talking about someone’s the the strong side of their characteristic and they they might be feeling a bit a little bit prideful about that, kinda talking about, Well if this person would just understand, you know, I’m a really good editor or Um another strength is that a lot of times a perfectionist produces really good work. So that they they might produce laudable work and they get lauded for that work often and they might say if If I was so bad, why does everyone appreciate when I come in and do this? Whatever, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um or vice versa, like you maybe have felt the uh the pain of the other side enough ti years in your life to now you’re just tired of it. You know, it’s like you’re only talking about the negative. I can’t keep a relationship every time, you know, we’re on a date, I can’t help but look at the the spinach in her teeth or you know, whatever it is, right? Like And you

Mark:

This has sounded real familiar to you, Justin.

Justin:

Uh oh. Well the listeners can’t hear my spinach, I hope. Uh yeah, so either direction, I like to take the stick concept and say, listen , with perfectionism, there’s two sides to this stick.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And the goal I think in our life is to find a balance because and get this I’m holding it my t my hands, right?

Mark:

Right and left.

Justin:

Right and left, and I’m holding the stick in my hand and I have it balanced. evenly, right? Level, so to speak. Um and the goal is to understand the on the strength side It’s attached to the negative side. So when I’m tempted to feel prideful in like this is the ultimate thing to recognize yes, but it’s connected to these other things. And you have to keep that balance in mind so that the the pride and the the tendency towards um you know saying like this is the ultimate. is in check to be able to say it’s not the ultimate. It’s part of who I am. It’s a gift that I have, but it’s balanced by this other side.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? And then on the other hand, so that’s that’s me holding my left hand higher up in the air saying I’m really proud of this, right? Sure. So we want to bring that in balance to say, look, it comes with some humiliating sides that brings it kind of back down into balance, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And then on the other side, let’s say my right hand is higher up, right? I’m out of balance and I’m feeling the shame of the bad sides. And One thing to note here is that it it’s very common to not see the attachment of the good and the bad. That’s very common. And so what I was saying at the very beginning is this idea I want to eradicate the bad, not recognizing the ad, but if you get rid of that. So this is this is where the conversation comes in when they’re dwelling in that shame and and the disappointment of these negative characteristics to vr I try to encourage them to say, look This is a problem. You are right. But don’t forget that it’s attached to this other end.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And because of this Right? You do great work at work. You do work that people look at and they think, Wow, this is what I want my work to look like. Like you produce laudable work And on top of that, when you step into a situation, maybe everyone no one in the room can find this problem, but you’re able to, and as a result, you can save them from a lot of heartache Because of your abilities to find those flaws.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And like being able to take that stick and bring that left side up and get it back into balance to say, now this this this negative side That’s something you’re gonna have to work on. This is something you have to keep balanced. But don’t forget that it’s attached to this good side.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And you can’t get rid of one without the other. You’re just gonna have to throw the stick away Which you can’t do. Sure. You know, like this is part of your personality.

Mark:

It’s part of the stick.

Justin:

It’s part of the stick and the stick is part of you.

Mark:

I hear ya.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

And I’m and I’m not I know you want to uh find another name. uh for you. But when you were thinking of that balance, it does remind me of the, you know, the yin yang type thing. The black, the white, the you know, and that that connectedness that there is a balance to strengths and weaknesses and we all have them. And I was thinking about it in a in that aspect of um you use the word shame and you know that’s that’s typically one of those things one of those words that I’m gonna think about whether I agree with it as far as applicability.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, because I I think, you know, we can tend to feel shame when I am bad.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because of this. And I and I think sometimes we get it mixed up with guilt in a process that says, okay, I tend to do these things. And sometimes those things, you know, specific things catch up with me. And then I do feel guilt about those specific things. You know what I’m saying? In that, and I think Yeah, whenever we tend to feel that guilt or shame, there is a there is a part of us that, like you’re saying, wants to get rid of that, you know, kind of ship that off the the the cargo ship, you know, just drop that in the ocean and sail away.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But yet the stick basically brings that back to us in such a way that we’re connected and that ability to have awareness of my strength with my weakness is a healthy thing.

Justin:

It is. Yeah, that’s that’s been my perception and Um, you know, back to the shame and guilt thing, one thing that you said before that I think is is the idea of shame is I am bad. Right. Right. Where the idea of guilt is I do bad, right? That was bad, that thing is bad, yep, versus an identification thing. Shame often takes the things that I do bad and says, but you’re bad.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Yeah. So again, uh I I don’t It when I say bring those things in balance, I certainly don’t mean it’s okay to continue those flaws and, you know, write it off as um acceptable. I think we’re meant to wrestle with those things, you know. Sure. Contend with them and continue to find tools and resources to address those things in a recognition that says this is part of who I am, therefore I need these tools, these plans, this this this toolkit or whatever to help r uh work through some of those negative tendencies.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um because without that plan, that stick will get out of balance, right? Yeah. And then also uh this idea of shoving the stuff off the ship, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

The problem again with that, i if you could do that is you’re likely now untethered in the strength. And I mean that sounds great, like So only have the good, right? Uh but I just don’t think it um matches with the reality, which is we need the humility to keep it in balance.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, and that’s what gives us the gravitas. with our strengths to be able to say it’s it’s a heavy responsibility to carry this strength.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? Because it comes with this as well. And I I don’t know, I think that gives it more humanity. It gives it, you know, um I I honestly don’t know that there that there is such a thing as a a perfect strength that has no You know, like a a characteristic that doesn’t isn’t somehow attached to the other end of the spectrum, as you said, right? The continuum.

Mark:

So as you’re workshopping this stick, okay, help me understand where growth comes into your model

Justin:

I’m for me growth is about the balance. It’s about, hey, you’re holding that negative end of the stick up way too much and this is what you’re beating yourself with, this is what you’re hurting other people with, like it is out of balance. And the goal would be to, all right, let’s chill out and recognize you’re just human. This is something you should, you can work on, but hey, let’s also balance it with the fact that This also comes with this, the strength, like we talked about earlier. So for me, growth is about learning to recognize that pattern and see when they’re attached and be able to come back to that balance.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Continue to the rest of your life keep that in balance as much as possible. And vice versa. Like growth is being able to say, hey, I know you’re super proud of the fact that you can criticize everybody and you can find all the flaws and that you’re you’re really proud of that. Let’s chill on that because here’s here’s the thing. Look at the wreckage behind you, right, as a result of this this quote unquote strength, right? Like Yeah, relationships and even, you know, opportunities because they’re like, you know, I see the gifts there, but I don’t want the I don’t want the the end of the stick that hurts me. I just want if I could have just the the good end I’d take it, you know.

Mark:

So th for you the stick becomes that ability to recognize that I can be prideful and about the things that I’ve accomplished, but that’s still an can be a negative dynamic when I go too far in that direction.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. That’s why balance is that’s why it’s about balance.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Holding that

Mark:

And then s I think as from our human dynamic we we only want to focus on that one end that we see as our strength and it does take relationship to kind of help us recognize so the stick is kind of a relational dynamic where I’m open to the fact that I’m connected But yet I also have people to help me identify what’s in my right hand.

Justin:

And speaking of these people.

Mark:

These people. They have sticks too?

Justin:

You know where this happens the most often is marriage because in the dating side of things you get to see a lot of that left hand, right? A lot of those strengths.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And we’re pretty good about bringing our best foot forward and kind of leaving the baggage at the door when we when we leave to get in or go on our date, right?

Mark:

Sure

Justin:

Uh in marriage, the rest shows up. And all of a sudden, and you hear um Mark, you hear this in counseling all the time, I’m sure. I know I’ve heard it many, many times. I can’t stand that he does X. And X is the other end of the stick that got them into this relationship in the first place. It’s the thing that made them go, this guy is amazing. Isn’t that so common where it’s like, yes, but you’re not realizing that that’s connected in what made you love him is now the thing that makes you detest him.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And they’re attached. You don’t get one with the out the out the other. Is that fair?

Mark:

Well that’s very fair. That’s I mean at that moment when I’m hearing that that negative cycle I’ll I’ll I’ll immediately not immediately, but routinely, I’ll shift it to say, okay, what drew you to them in the beginning?

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

And that’s when you’ll see that other side of the stick.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

, oh, I remember, you know, this and that, you know, and there’s a multitude of things in most cases, you know If you if you hear that part, well I’m not sure what attracted me to him in the first place. You know, then we still gotta work on that next. But you know, when you’re able to kind of make that shift, yes, that is a that is a part of the stick of relationship. Is that the we have these strengths that we bring in and as you say in dating we tend to lead with O ‘s and minimize And you know, those and it’s so often it that dynamic of remote.

Justin:

When dating it’s like we’re jousting with the stick in the left hand’s forward and you See this analogy. I mean it just goes so well.

Mark:

Yes. I I can see that you have put a lot of thought in this stick. It’s the hammer. It’s the hammer.

Justin:

That’s right. I tend to stretch analogies as f far as they can possibly go. So

Mark:

that’s fair enough.

Justin:

No, but I was just thinking about like in marriage, for instance, some examples would be like You know, my husband, he never plans anything. You know, he doesn’t I always have to do the take the initiative and figure out what we’re doing, what restaurant we’re going to or whatever, you know, and W you know, what what was it that attracted you when you were dating? Oh, he was so spontaneous. You know, like and it’s like that’s a perfect example, right? Of like, well, when there’s meant to be a construct, maybe that’s a weakness, but when there’s room for spontaneity, that’s the strength, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um or you know

Mark:

st stability versus you know yeah yeah. You can see how that continuum is there. You know. Well well you never we never do anything spontaneous. Well yeah, but I love the fact that he was so stable because I was so emotional at that point and he was just a source of stability or vice versa, she was and he you know. That’s yeah.

Justin:

And that I mean a a good example of that with me and Megan is like she’s really good at planning and orchestrating things. So like you know, Saturday we’re gonna go to Wilmington, we’re gonna, you know, go to Trader Jo Trader Joe’s, we’re gonna make different stops or whatever and she’ll have the route planned in her head and you know, this whole thing. Like she just kinda maps it out and so much of her life, I love that about her.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Like she knows exactly where their kids are gonna be, when they’re gonna be, when I need to be there to pick them up, all this stuff. She has this whole thing mapped out in her head. Sure. And to be honest, it relieves a lot of that need in my mind because I’m like she’s got it figured out. I’ll just go where she tells me to go and she but then of course we go to Wilmington. I’m like, oh hey, we should go do X. Yeah the spontaneous thing is you see this look on her her face like hmmm

Mark:

We didn’t put that in the schedule

Justin:

You know and I’m like come on you know and then I get offended right like You just never, you know, want to do something spontaneous and fun. It’s like but I’m reaping the benefits of her strengths in this most of my life.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And then, you know, and I’ve and this is something as you can tell I’ve learned. Like this is a stick thing where then the negative side that bothers me sometimes I have to recognize Is she as far as balance goes in our relationship, I reap the rewards of the strengths way more than I deal with through the quote unquote negatives of Sure. We never get to do what I want to do. Or we can. Here’s the thing. She will allow it. She’s not a jerk.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But She’s not gonna have the same excitement that I would that I would have and that I would want to see, right? It’s gonna be like, okay, we can do it, but it’s against my Plan, you know.

Mark:

Yeah, and uh and I think that even ties in with the growth dynamic as you have shifted, you value who she is, yeah, and yet you’re able to say now in your mind versus you know years ago, you’re able to say, oh, Wilmington on Saturday.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I was thinking about Can we what are your thoughts on that? Can we add that to and you know and and I think you’ve probably learned to be more um what’s the one you think ahead? Yeah yeah.

Justin:

We’re gonna go with planny.

Mark:

Planny That’s a good word. I’m good with that. But yeah, you tend to think proactive. That’s the word I was looking for. You tend to be more proactive in your ability to say, hey, what about this? Because it’s not just flying by the seat of your pants anymore. And, you know, which would tend to be a reactive thing between the two of you years ago.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Because and then of course you would have your own aspect of that cycle when you didn’t get your way. Now you’re able to say, Okay, well maybe Next time.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, we’re going it’s not like we don’t need the food from Trader Joe’s. Right. But next time if we can, let’s just think about this and add that to our to our day.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think

Justin:

Or even asking for room Right. Is acceptable to uh, hey, when we go to Wilmington, let’s not, you know, maybe plan the whole thing like let’s leave some room for I might want to stop here, I might I’m not sure yet, but if there could be some room She’s great at that too. It’s you know. And I’ve also, you know, in terms of growth, recognizing like if I don’t do that, well, that’s on me. I had an opportunity to to have that conversation. And growth on her side is she’s definitely like through the years understood that about herself and said and she’s very flexible. Like I said, she’s not a jerk. She’ll totally do it. Sure. Now I just want her to tell her face that she wants to do it.

Mark:

Hashtag tell your face. I like that.

Justin:

No, that’s that’s a joke But yeah, you get the idea. It’s like sometimes I want more out of her than she can even give, you know, because I’m I’m asking a lot of her in terms of you know her personality.

Mark:

And you will tend to see that through her body language at times. And some of that is is just that reactionary feeling that we sometimes have. when we when our mind is suddenly thinking, oh not again.

Justin:

Yeah. Face

Mark:

tends to betray that at times.

Justin:

Yep. But the patterns, you know.

Mark:

Yeah, it’s very much so.

Justin:

Yeah. Another uh personal area that I n you know, I’ve I think I’ve talked about approval addiction.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um this idea that like I n you know, I need approval in order I need that next hit, right, of approval. Um And so I’ve applied the stick to this too, and to just understand that that desire for approval allows me to be really good in a social situation. Like I can step into a situation and I can make someone feel happy. You know, I can f I can find the person who maybe looks like, you know, their um you know, on their own or whatever, and I can approach them and have a conversation and like I’ve learned how to get people to quote unquote like me um through like I don’t know, it’s hard to explain. Like basically talking to them and encouraged, you know, asking about their stuff, their life, and recognizing, you know over the years, like what gets someone to like you is you liking them. You know? And like but so that’s the strength. There’s some strength there. And then the other thing is it kinda like the perfectionist, it allows me to produce really good work Because w I often will i y that that’s like a I wanna produce good work inherently. Like I desire that. Sure. But when I get the approval it’s like a stamp of yes, you know This is good work, let’s do it again. It

Mark:

energizes you.

Justin:

Yeah, exactly. So I tend to produce good work, right? So those are some of the strengths. Now, I think you can naturally intuit some of those weaknesses of like Sometimes the work ‘s not enough. Mm. I also need their approval and then it’s like you know, I get a little mopey or whatever Or um like it you know, in terms of that relational thing, it’s like, okay, that relationship is matured enough to wear my little party tricks, right? Now it’s just about real relationship and it’s like you know, I don’t think I impressed this person anymore. That I don’t have anything else to offer. You know, and that can be like a bummer for me, like, oh, you know Yeah.

Mark:

I don’t have any more magic tricks left.

Justin:

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And the stick is putting those things in balance to say, hey, now we have a real relationship. You know, and I don’t have to do party tricks every time I see this person. Sometimes I can just be real and that’s a good thing. And then vice versa, like recognizing, you know, sometimes that good work You know, everyone’s applauding it, but honestly that’s partly why I did it. So just recognizing like that’s not a good thing. I’m glad I produced this work. I’m not glad that, you know part of the reason and the motivation was to get this applause and it’s you know feels it’s just a balance. I don’t again I don’t mean to drag that strength so far down that there’s now shame But just that balance to go, you know, it’s that’s all right. You know. Yeah. Does that make sense?

Mark:

It does make sense. And I think like you s like you’re saying, we need to be aware of the balance because most of us have a strength But there is a, you know, another side, if I may, to that, you know, that strength that I I need to have an awareness of in such a way that says, okay Yeah. It’s not just that I’m this, because we can think about even that that um like people pleasing, you call it um

Justin:

approval addiction. Approval

Mark:

addiction, yeah. You know, it’s like the other side would be the inability to say no to people.

Justin:

Yes, yes, that too, yep.

Mark:

You know, because I’m so con you know, consumed at times with pleasing

Justin:

Which makes you a good servant.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But makes you a slave to yes.

Mark:

Exactly. And it’s, you know, it’s difficult. And at times it can be difficult to be honest.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Because of the fact that, you know, sometimes I need to be able to say no. And sometimes, you know. Uh I need to be able to say hard things to people in a way that is still truthful and kind. You know, that kind of thing. So yeah, I just Yeah. I appreciate uh your sharing from that perspective and I think so often, you know, even in who we are There’s I wa and initially I was thinking, you know, I think we all have strengths. And we have weaknesses and being able to tie those two together, I think is helpful. Versus , I think sometimes I can think about it, I guess for me personally I may be just good at one thing. Like I may, I may be, you know, I may be able to use my hands, but I wouldn’t necessarily consider myself a business person. You follow me? And I and I I the stick analogy I like because excuse me, in some ways I need to recognize those two aren’t stuck together. You follow me? So I can still work.

Justin:

Oh yeah.

Mark:

You know, so So we wanna, I think if if I’m hearing you correctly, we wanna recognize that one thing typically like pride. Mm-hmm typically has a stick at the other end. You follow me? But it doesn’t mean that just because it doesn’t mean that everything is connected to everything. Sometimes like

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Go ahead. I’ll let you I I can tell your understanding where I’m coming from, maybe better than I’m communicating.

Justin:

Yeah, they’re not always i yeah, you can always draw a clear connection between two traits. I think that’s part of what you’re saying. I don’t think you should force it. But I do think uh you can learn to learn this. You can learn this mental model and apply it and like I said, if it sticks, it sticks. Um I think the two ends probably is is like you have the thing in the middle that it this is the stick. The two ends is pride and shame.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right. So I think I think that’s probably what I would say to keep in balance. And um but yeah, I mean even with with you and w being good with your hand we we joked and talked about this a lot on this podcast, like the technical side You know, you make jokes about not being good at that. But at the same time, trying to keep that in balance and say, you know, I can get better at this. And you’ve you’ve mentioned that several times and Uh, you know, and it’s recognizing that like I’m really good with my hands, which comes at the expense of not really caring about this computer stuff, but

Mark:

yep.

Justin:

And whatever, but trying to keep that in balance to say I I feel like that’s a perfect example uh in terms of your side and what you just brought up.

Mark:

You connected the stick. Nice job. You made those two things into a stick. Yeah.

Justin:

So

Mark:

But yeah, I’m hearing where you’re talking about.

Justin:

So I agree. But like you said, it doesn’t mean you can’t get better, but right it’s pretty likely at this point in your life you’re never gonna be like someone who sits like works at a computer. Likely nothing inside you that says any inkling that that would be a direction you’d want to go.

Mark:

Based on a desire even at this point. That’s what I mean. Yeah.

Justin:

So I think that’s safe to put it on the same stick. Well versus like what you’re saying Maybe you don’t necessarily you don’t feel the same way about being a good at business.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

That’s something you I think, based on what you’re just saying right now, you do have a desire to do and do see that you could get better at it. Sure. And it’s not necessarily I’m good at my hands, therefore I can’t be good at business.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Thinking of your stick though, when uh Uh I realize you mentioned CR at the beginning, but for you, when did you uh how old were you basically when you kind of gravitated to the the stick model? When was that? you know, in that process for you. Because I’m I’m thinking about certain ages as looking back in my own life, you know, early on, I might not have been able to even acknowledge there is a stick.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

So how did the stick process come about for you, if I may ask?

Justin:

Um like I said, I’ve been workshopping it for a while. So

Mark:

yeah. But I mean what was there a specific

Justin:

I think i a lot of s uh the celebrate recovery material itself is about finding and addressing character defects. But there’s also a lot of things in the material about talking about our strengths and what areas are you good at because uh as you know, spiritual inventory is you know, step five is kinda right in the middle. Uh step four, step four. is b uh creating your inventory and the whole you know what we talk about so often about inventory is keep it balanced balanced exactly and so what I started That I think at some point in this I’ve been doing Celebrate Covery for uh well, I started in it fourteen years ago. So off and on, been involved with it for fourteen years. And so somewhere in there it started to go, Oh, wait a second, they’re connected. You know? And then even like applying that to myself and seeing how it was connected and then starting to hear it around the room, ’cause you know, you go around the room, people answer their questions, and I start to go, Oh Oh.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That person’s thing is connected too. And oh, that person’s connected. And they’re feeling a lot of shame, but they don’t realize they have this other side. Or vice versa. Like, oh he’s really proud of that thing, but he doesn’t realize it comes with you know like

Mark:

Yeah

Justin:

No idea. So yeah, I would I want to say let’s go with let’s go with six years.

Mark:

Yeah. And it’s interesting that you when you when we as you were discussing that and talking about it, when I think of old school balance I uh I imagine those two like the justice weight system. You know what I think? Yeah. Because a balance does combine, you know, something in the on this side, my right side, with something on my left side And we kind of you know, view that so it’s interesting that word itself yeah as an origin of yeah Two things being connected in a in a way that weighs them against the other.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

The other thing, because you were move moving your hands up and down.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And uh what made me think of is the stick on a tightrope.

Mark:

There you go.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

I hear you.

Justin:

And that’s kind of what I’m talking about, like trying to keep the stick in balance is

Mark:

yeah.

Justin:

And like

Mark:

you’re on the tightrope.

Justin:

Yep, exactly. Well, you know, the tightrope. Yeah

Mark:

No, I’m just thinking about it. What’s that what’s that thing they they use? They don’t use it as stick. What’s that thing a person carries across the the tightrope?

Justin:

I don’t know. They’re all sticks to me, Mike. If I had a better name, don’t you think we ought to start it with that? The baton.

Mark:

Yeah, it could be. Could be. But either way.

Justin:

I bet you someone knows the name of the stick that uh tight rope person.

Mark:

Could be a balance.

Justin:

Balance stick?

Mark:

Or just the word. I don’t know.

Justin:

I don’t know either.

Mark:

But yeah.

Justin:

So that’s the stick. What do you think?

Mark:

I like it.

Justin:

Does it work?

Mark:

Yeah. No, I appreciate you sharing from that perspective.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Oh, and the other thing I was gonna say is the better you can get at identifying the stick The more empathy you can have for others, the more grace for others in yourself to be able to kind of balance those things and Uh again when someone is exhibiting weaknesses that bother you to go Yeah, but what does this mean, you know, and be able to do that? Or when you’re trying to encourage others, right? Like depending on the environments you’re in, someone might be really upset about s characteristics of theirs and be able to encourage them and say, Yeah, but remember this too. And you know um and again, doing that back to yourself to say I’m so frustrated I did this again and to you know keep those things in I think The concept of this balance thing is really healthy for anybody. Uh if the stick helps you remember that and you can start seeing the stick, you know, I think that can help. uh help keep things in balance a little bit.

Mark:

No doubt. And as as you were describing that, even servant leadership. is a is I think a area where a person recognizes they have abilities to lead, but they don’t have to anymore. You know, and and I and I think so often that comes with time and my ability to say, okay, yeah. I can lead, but at the same time I can help others become good leaders if I pull back and I’m willing to just say, hey, you know, let me help you. In that process. It’s just one of those thoughts that come to mind. But I think, yeah. So thanks for sharing, Justin.

Justin:

Yeah. Thanks for letting me talk about the stick.

Mark:

Not a problem at all. You want to close us?

Justin:

That’s how we see it.

Mark:

There you go.

Justin:

Doesn’t sound as good coming from you. You do it. You do it.

Mark:

This is how I see it.

Justin:

Nailed it. Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C L I C K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.