0:02
[Music] speaking of primarily there's there are

0:08
eight primary emotions okay you know that are acknowledged you know and granted do I get to guess these sure if

0:15
you want to guess them go for it yeah all right yeah go for it sadness yep yes nice ding ding ding

0:25
ding ding that's one that's one I'm one for one uh happiness

0:30
uh Jo yeah Joy okay yep fear yep uh

0:36
anger yep nice job you're doing well what am I four for four all right yes

0:41
four for four uh

0:47
anxious um worried you're you're going to have a little bit of

0:52
um yeah I'm I'm we call that a miss [Music]

1:02
welcome to how I see it with me Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a

1:08
podcast that works to countercultural polarization through thoughtful

1:14
[Music] conversations morning sir good morning

1:22
Mark how are you Justin I'm well how are you I am also well it's been it's been a

1:28
couple weeks yeah it's been a little while while just stuff going on with us individually but uh yeah it's good to be

1:35
back here it is and our uh our audience won't see any dips yeah that that's the

1:41
beauty of being a little bit ahead exactly um however we're not now we're not a little bit well now we're just a

1:48
teeny bit ahead we're we're sufficiently ahead sufficiently yeah yeah so it's

1:54
good to be back at it back in the studio yes Congratulations by the way on what

2:00
on a thousand listens oh yes yes we crossed over the threshold a thousand

2:07
people have hit play and listen for whatever anchor deems a sufficient

2:12
amount of time to call it a play oh okay is that how that works yeah I don't know I think if I remember hearing at one

2:19
point it's like 15 seconds oh wow okay it's like someone gives you 15 seconds they consider it they listen to your

2:26
podcast oh wow okay which you know if they cop right part it might be fair but

2:32
yeah but that's not necessarily yeah you could kind of have to listen 15 seconds just to get adjust

2:39
a gist of what's yeah yeah I don't know I don't know that for a fact with anchor

2:45
but I know like some video play metrics they base it on a pretty small chunk of

2:51
time my guess with Anor I tease a little bit my guess would be it's more than 15 seconds my guess would be several

2:57
minutes but I do think they're they probably don't aren't counting the full play sure this is a bunch of uh what you

3:06
talking baseball is that what that phrase is talking b i I had you don't know that phrase is inside baseball

3:12
inside baseball okay inside baseball gotcha yeah behind the scenes nonsense

3:18
that nobody cares about exactly that's that's what I was that was what I was congratulating you for though by the way

3:24
nice job for the inside baseball for the thousand plus plays

3:29
yeah so yes thank you we did it thank you thank our listeners yes exactly

3:35
there's been a few people in the last couple weeks that said hey I just listened to your podcast I was like how was it well I haven't got that far yet

3:42
but hey they started they started listening which is exciting um no that

3:48
yeah I've heard I've heard several people come up you know they've come up to me and said they've started listening so that's exciting no doubt um so yeah I

3:56
guess it's good we keep doing this huh I it's it's good as far as I'm concerned

4:01
yes let's get a thousand more plays huh exactly and then yeah we'll see after that maybe we'll get 500 after oh

4:10
wow all right we're rambling Mark but it's okay so go ahead today that is that

4:18
what you're going talk about sure yeah today we're going to talk a little bit about the concept of thinking versus

4:27
feeling MH and U I just want to set it up a little bit because um for a while

4:34
Mark and I were meeting um together as a result of our involvement celebrate

4:39
covery I say that right yeah and so we were purposfully trying to discuss certain things about the the 12 steps as

4:46
we worked through them together and um one thing that I would often say it was

4:54
kind of a catch race for me is well I think or no no I feel feel like I feel

5:01
like this is how this is or I feel like that when this happens this is what why

5:06
I did that I feel like I feel like in U mark would call me out on that say well

5:12
do you feel that or do you think that and I know the first time or maybe first

5:18
several times I'm like I don't really know what you're getting at Mark yeah I thought it was it was a little it was a

5:23
little bit lost on me but you continued to hone in on that and work on that and you know we we chatted about about it

5:30
essentially to describe like here's why that matters right and so I think I

5:36
would love to share that same conversation with our listeners and kind of break it down even further and I know

5:42
you have some some awesome insight into that so with that I would love to hand

5:47
it over to person and and I think that's that's where I come from as a therapist it's like when I hear someone say feel

5:56
like my automatic thought is to say okay is that a thought or is that an emotion

6:03
and typically okay because we're hearing feel and we're hearing like all at the

6:09
same time it's like I just just use like myself but I want to recognize whenever

6:15
we have to put like after feel we are typically

6:22
thinking okay and I think in our I think it's a cultural thing because I my

6:29
thought is that we want to recognize that it's just a feeling and

6:37
there's nothing I can do about it because and it becomes a little more nebulous it's a little

6:44
less mean or it's a little less something in my mind that I'm not necess

6:52
I don't have to necessarily acknowledge the fact that I this is really what I'm thinking I was going to add a comment

6:59
there go ahead and I was unintentionally going to say I feel like when I do

7:04
thatuh what are you what are you trying to do I think when I do that I'm trying

7:09
to take the edge off of it right it's like this idea of like it's not as as

7:16
harsh of a thing as an actual thought exactly right it's intuitive thing right but yeah I I think

7:25
in I think kind of what you were getting at with me specifically in our conversations was that maybe it was a

7:32
cop out is that and I I would I I think sometimes it's a cop out and I think as

7:39
a as a culture sometimes we want to recognize how feelings you just there

7:47
isn't anything you can do about them so if I just feel like this there really

7:53
isn't anything I can do because our feelings our feelings do come and go

8:00
it's not as if there's some great thing we can do about our

8:06
emotions okay and and statistically speaking you know we the average emotion

8:13
lasts between 90 and 120 seconds so we are I mean granted now

8:21
some emotions last longer sadness can last for days so when I factor that in

8:28
you know and the average is still 90 to 120 I can feel a lot of emotions in a

8:34
short amount of time does that make sense so and and I

8:39
think for me the reason I like to delineate that difference between what

8:45
I'm thinking and what I'm feeling is I am when I'm recognizing okay emotions

8:52
may come and emotions may go kind of like a boat on the water you see you see that Speck down at the horizon

9:00
it gets closer I I can identify the boat I know in in case of emotions I know

9:07
maybe what that emotion is or at least I'm allow I'm recognizing I'm feeling

9:12
something and yet that just like the boat it will become a speck in the on the other Horizon shortly so it will

9:20
come and it will go that's primarily what our emotions do speaking of primarily there's there are eight

9:27
primary emotions okay you know that are acknowledged you know and granted do I

9:32
get to guess these sure if you want to guess them go for yeah all right yeah go

9:38
for it sadness yep yes nice ding ding ding

9:43
ding ding that's one that's one I'm one for one uh happiness uh Joy yeah Joy okay yep fear

9:52
yep uh anger yep nice job you're doing well what am I four for four all right

10:00
yes four for four uh

10:05
anxious um worried you're you're gonna have a little bit of

10:11
um yeah I'm call that a Miss yeah kind of and not it's there's going to be

10:17
surprise can be part of that shock wond so you know surprise can be if depending

10:23
on my anxiet surpr is one of them you just surprise is one of them yeah I don't get that one yep so I'm four I'm

10:30
I'm four for five yes unless you just said Wonder was another one because you just listed several words yes wonder is

10:38
part of surprise okay okay okay all

10:44
right man this is tough to do in a quick format those are all the ones I feel so

10:51
no okay uh wait let's uh oh no there's there's probably another one you're

10:56
feeling confusion uh doubt

11:03
doubt not so much those are more thoughts than emotions yes this is this

11:09
is this is why we're doing this this is exactly why we're doing this because I want to recognize there's eight primary

11:16
ones but typically if we talk with an individual they might be

11:22
able to come off with three four five off the top of their head but I want to recognize Within These eight and I'm

11:28
going to share the other Shame Shame guilt you know when I make a

11:33
mistake okay um disgust contempt you know that that that feeling of you know

11:40
you disgust me or even yeah uh surprise

11:45
interest Joy fear sadness and anger those are those are the

11:51
eight so in that process and then there are all this is this this is another part of the

11:57
emotions sometimes those are primary emotions and there's also secondary

12:03
emotions so when I feel shame okay a secondary emotion that

12:10
might go along with that is I can I now when I feel shame I feel angry MH or

12:17
when I feel you know disgust I might feel anger as well or when I feel angry

12:24
I might or when I feel fearful I might have a a certain level

12:29
of anger that goes along with that because I can remember a time when I was scared you follow me and and and that's

12:37
where our emotions can kind of get layered if you will kind of like the onion yeah so it's important to be able

12:44
to recognize what are emotions and yet being able to

12:50
untangle my thoughts from those emotions so when I'm feeling fearful

12:59
okay what do what have I learned to do you follow me and and that's where

13:07
our thinking and our feeling can get confusing because we can

13:13
learn we we we develop thoughts based on how we are feeling so I don't want to

13:22
feel scared so what do I do so I might become angry as is a part of that

13:30
defensiveness so that you don't get close enough to me to hurt me anymore

13:36
you follow me yeah and I and I and I I realize we've talked about emotions

13:42
primarily and I want to recognize the reason I like to delineate that difference is the emotions will come and

13:48
the emotions will goh but I think we learn many of our

13:54
emotions within our family systems you know it's that Prim our family are our

14:00
you know our initial social interaction so and yet I bring what I

14:07
learned within that family system into a lot of my social interactions outside of

14:13
that family because that's where I learn them MH so now my thoughts become

14:19
important and I don't even always necessarily realize it but when I

14:24
recognize when I'm hearing myself say feel like

14:30
at that PO at that point it can be a little red flag that goes off in my mind

14:35
and I'm able to say okay what am I thinking because if I'm able to

14:40
acknowledge what I'm thinking okay give give me an example for your feel

14:45
[Music] like I feel like when this person does that they're saying this about me you

14:52
know okay like that's an example I feel like when you know this person doesn't

14:57
respect what I say whatever doesn't do what I suggest in the meeting they are

15:04
disrespecting me or whatever right like that's sure so I'm thinking that that

15:10
person may not respect me or even I'm thinking that that person is outright

15:17
disrespecting me in front of this group now is that 100% accurate I may not

15:25
necessarily know that but at the same time I think when we acknowledge it as a

15:32
thought we can we're better prepared to address it in such a way that says okay

15:40
this is really what I'm thinking because I and the reason I say that is whenever

15:46
we acknowledge our thoughts to a certain degree we are better able to take

15:51
control of them yeah so in such a way that says okay I'm responsible for what

15:58
I'm thinking and there's something I can do about this mhm CU sometimes that's

16:03
that's where that's where the tough part comes into play it's like if I'm not necessarily addressing what I'm thinking

16:10
I'll continue to feel like feel like feel like feel like feel like in such a

16:15
way that go ahead never takes ownership yeah it you I mean you just make me

16:21
think of the Stephen cu's push for uh proactivity versus reactivity and

16:27
essentially feeling like is a reactive thing right it's literally reacting to your emotions I feel like therefore I'm

16:35
reacting to that or whatever where proactivity is saying I may feel that but what do I think it's this uh it's

16:41
this conversion of the reactive response into a proactive whatever that is right

16:47
like that's it seems like that's always been your goal with me anyway is to say okay but you know to your point like we

16:55
can be pushed and pulled by our emotions all day long and that will happen if we allow it but that is the reactive

17:02
approach it's literally reacting to every whim of every emotion that comes across and then we we're

17:09
like yeah the ship at Sea that's just tossed back and forth by the waves um

17:15
we're thinking is this idea of like turn on the rudder turn on the motor and

17:20
start going against those waves right like figure out where you're going with this and those emotions will come and go

17:28
and it's okay to to recognize them and address them and work through them but to have a you know to recognize that

17:34
they don't Define you they don't push you they don't pull you unless you let

17:41
them and it and it and from my perspective in a lot of cases that is

17:46
what emotions I'll say are designed to do is to create a

17:52
response now there would be those who might say you know okay this is a this is a this is a prime

17:59
Primal aspect of you know Evolution you know to the point of saying you know it

18:04
was designed to protect us you know in the whole ceman perspective as emotions

18:10
were developed I recognize from my perspective that you know I believe emotions are part of a a god-given

18:17
design yeah that we have and I think that's when we we can break this down to

18:25
you know eight primary emotions but I think part of our emotional

18:32
vocabulary is the ability to recognize that each of those eight can be very

18:38
nuanced and I think it's important for us to be able to you know communicate

18:43
that especially in our social interactions because there's there's definitely a difference

18:50
between uh feeling fear feeling or feeling

18:56
abandoned or feeling um anger versus

19:01
contempt you follow me so I think when we're able to communicate and we are

19:07
able to grow our emotional vocabulary we're far better off in our

19:15
ability to communicate with one another because you know when when I feel

19:22
abandoned okay that's just demon that's just the a a feeling that says okay I

19:29
was here and I felt like I felt alone because in this moment we were

19:37
together side by side and you chose to do something else you follow me and and

19:43
after that I did feel alone but I really felt abandoned in that process you

19:49
follow me and that that can when we talk when we're able to talk like that we're

19:55
a better able to have empathy in such a way that says oh okay yeah I I I I was

20:04
there with you and I realized that I left to go take care of

20:10
something a phone call and I can recognize that that's what happened it

20:15
wasn't necessarily my intent but when we're able to identify emotions and keep

20:22
them at that level we're far better off or we're far more able to avoid

20:29
defensiveness MH because I'm just recognizing that you had a feeling and

20:35
that feeling's okay yeah but when your feelings and thoughts come at me and say

20:41
you should have you should have known okay now we're starting to talk about what I think you're thinking you should

20:48
know you follow me and it's not accurate to be able to say you should have known

20:55
yeah okay and that's the part that we can challenge no Justin just didn't know that I was

21:03
going to feel that when he left does that make sense it does I'd

21:10
love to poke some holes go for it uh just yeah is there room for saying I

21:18
feel like especially for you as a counselor you know listening to someone who's working through some stuff like as

21:26
an introductory like start right as a as the beginning is

21:32
there room for that sure there's room for that and and I'll I'll even walk

21:38
through that in here's why I asked go ahead in your example

21:44
MH uh it's important to examine your

21:49
feelings right like I I think um so yeah so in other words those emotions will

21:56
just push us and pull us and we won't recognize it recognizing it I think is step step one in in prevention right of

22:05
dealing with those emotions uh affecting you in every whim right like I think

22:10
recognizing that oh these emotions are coming right so I feel like is an

22:17
important first part of recognizing to say when that person goes away in your

22:23
example I feel like they abandoned me or I feel or I just feel um alone or

22:31
abandoned or whatever that is you know yeah is that does that make sense is

22:36
that so that makes sense um and for every time you're using

22:44
feel like I can also submit that I'm thinking I was abandoned mhm you follow

22:52
me but but sometimes it's not even an actual I know what you're saying

22:59
but it's not an a a conscious thought it's a subconscious leaning towards

23:05
abandonment yeah I don't actually think in my mind that person abandoned me but

23:10
I'm just like like you said the Primary Emotion is just anger and I'm not sure why and I just know they left and I'm

23:17
just upset but I didn't actually think that I was abandoned uhhuh that's how it

23:24
you know what I mean and it here's here would be this is my in that process poke

23:30
holes in my hole pokeing what are we left with then a lot of holes we'll repair him at the end but

23:39
this is where I come from it's okay to be able to

23:44
say I'm not exactly sure what I'm feeling in response to that I felt

23:51
alone I felt abandoned and I'm not saying it's even your fault I'm recognizing this is my

23:58
stuff and I may not actually even be sure that that's exactly what I'm

24:06
feeling but that's that's how I felt you follow me and I I'm I'm yes to

24:15
answer I would answer your question initial question is it okay to say feel

24:20
like yeah it's okay but I think it's important that we're recognizing that as

24:26
part of a Quant a wondering as far as this this process of

24:33
being able to understand there's a lot of feelings and I don't

24:40
necessarily always take control take ownership of them and some of

24:49
those some of those are [Music] so primary and I I don't use that I

24:57
don't I don't use that word Loosely I'm not trying to say but I

25:02
want to recognize okay um breaking it down here a little

25:07
bit I need to recognize that we have two

25:13
forms of memory Okay the reason we don't have Early Childhood early early

25:19
childhood memories is due to Intrinsic memory it's in there we

25:26
experience something in that attachment Theory Dynamic if you will I I may have

25:33
felt abandoned or I may have felt excluded or

25:38
I felt anxiety you know even as a child when my needs weren't necessarily met so

25:46
where what do I do with that okay I cried and someone didn't show up okay

25:53
that's intrinsic memory we don't have words to communicate that we have that

25:59
but once we develop language we're able to have extrinsic memory so I can communicate

26:08
what I saw what I experienced does that make sense and there would be a part of me

26:15
and this ability to untangle and and look at patterns and Cycles some of that

26:22
difficulty in communicating emotion might have a lot to do with those

26:27
intrinsic memories right when someone didn't meet that need yeah an attachment

26:35
yeah Dynamic so that's that's where I would come back to when I'm feeling

26:41
alone when I'm feeling abandoned okay that may be a little bit

26:47
difficult to be able to create that understanding when that when I

26:55
experience that same thing again mhm M and I think that's where from my

27:00
perspective that's where a lot of our patterns and Cycles are developed yeah I

27:06
I think about you know even celebrate recovery step groups or whatever and I'm sure you and counseling but like some of

27:12
those amazing breakthroughs are when you know an intrinsic memory is revealed

27:19
right like an intrinsic P that a pattern developed in that intrinsic memory phase of our life and someone goes oh I get it

27:27
I do this every single time because of that thing yes and I've never put words

27:33
to it right exactly you know and I would say and I know typically at weddings we

27:39
all you know weddings will typically use 1 Corinthians 13 you know on love but my

27:44
favorite part for me personally is the part where you know Paul says when I was a child I spoke like a child I reasoned

27:50
like a child and when I became an adult I put my childish ways behind me and I

27:56
would I would dare say from my perspective that we don't always put all

28:01
of our childish ways behind us because to your point we don't know that's what

28:06
it is exactly right it's it's it is inside us that intrinsic memory it is

28:12
part of our pattern that we have not you know brought like to brought words to

28:17
brought whatever so we're yeah that's such a it's such a good analogy and and

28:22
very true like I think of my own breakthroughs in in my you know working

28:28
through stuff recognizing like yeah some of those things were so childish right

28:35
like exactly what you're saying and I of course I didn't feel childish at the time and I would have been offended if

28:40
you would have you know whatever but looking back on those patterns going wow yeah that's that was very childish you

28:47
know sure and I think for me I that would be where from my perspective that

28:54
would where be where feel like comes into play MH when I'm really just trying

28:59
to develop some of that and and instead from my perspective I would just say you

29:05
know what this is what I'm thinking I'm not 100% sure on this but I'm thinking

29:11
this is where that feeling comes from MH you follow you follow me and and here again it's not me trying to reiterate my

29:18
point but it is to that point of creating that wondering that

29:23
says okay maybe it's this and it's okay for

29:29
me to start thinking about it that way in such a way that says I'm not 100%

29:36
sure I don't want to be judgmental MH I don't want to be arrogant but at the same time let's let's let's address this

29:44
in such a way that says I'm thinking this is what's going on yeah when I feel

29:51
this I tend to do that yeah and I think

29:56
it's interesting too because there is also semantics among people right like

30:02
among among individuals we use certain phrases and words meaning different

30:07
things right and so for me when I say I feel like what you just described about these are this is what I'm processing

30:13
through this is my thoughts on the matter that was how I conveyed that was I feel like and I think since our

30:20
conversations understand that was a different meaning for you and did I think that like the translation got lost

30:27
and also arguably isn't the right way to translate some of that right I'm hearing what yeah I'm not saying it's a wrong

30:34
way I just want to acknowledge that other side of the equation yeah in this process of thinking and feeling MH yeah

30:43
and so the other thing I was thinking about too is the process of you first

30:49
start by recognizing those feelings right and so yes discussing them

30:55
thinking about them right and so one of put put us put off childish things that

31:01
I had to do was was to do that just start there like look at your emotions

31:06
and recognize what they're doing to you you know and and take ownership of them that proactive approach to the reactive

31:14
you know instead of being reactive to them um and so one of the things I had to do pretty early on in in my process

31:22
of healing and Recovery was stop trusting my feelings so darn much sure

31:27
sure you know yeah and so that was where that vernacular came from for me was

31:33
like I feel like was a way to say I don't trust this but here it is yes you know and I think this is what I'm

31:39
thinking about I'm not sure yeah yeah yeah and it was that was an important

31:45
like process for me to get to that and I almost like took our conversations as a

31:51
challenge to go from okay you've thought about this enough what are you now thinking like what's what's next after

31:59
that right like you've now recognized these patterns you've now recognized these emotions that come and go or

32:05
whatever now what you know that's kind of the thinking part versus just feel like okay but now what you know and I

32:12
think that was my takeway from some of our conversations like yeah it's a good point now what you know like sure what

32:20
do I think about this how do I respond to this and um it move is like a a

32:27
process of moving movement from the first step being recognizing The Next Step being okay now what in some of

32:33
those emotions I've learned I can just ignore like right when they come I know what it is I look at it Go yep there you

32:39
are again then we move on with our life and and that's been very valuable to to get to that point in a few things and

32:47
then there are other things where it's like I've never thought about now what and I'm still processing that or wrestling is yeah a word we use right

32:54
like I don't know in some cases it means this in some means that but thinking is

32:59
pretty important right like to determine what those yeah so that's a little bit about you and I and I will say and this

33:07
is this is this is part of my this is why I'm thankful that we're

33:13
created because I think in our culture we can go in one of two extremes you

33:21
know we either become emotions are all that matter or or thoughts are all that

33:27
matter and I think you know that becomes I think that becomes a comfort level to

33:33
each individual person because I'm more comfortable in my emotions because I

33:39
don't necessarily they they can I'm I'm okay being that boat tossed on the on

33:44
the wave and and in in some ways my emotions create a sense of connection

33:51
with other people who are emotionally driven as well yeah and yet you know

33:57
with our our thoughts you know can be that same thing and I and it it's uh I

34:05
think about it from the context of how often if we were to you know bring a

34:11
bunch of couples into the room you know I would say 90% of people if you were to say how many of you struggle with

34:18
communication you know whenever I work with couples you know or even in group settings it's like you know

34:23
communication's always that that that primary you know it's going to get the majority of hands it's like we just

34:29
can't talk and I think so often you know and I'll I'll bring it back even to the

34:36
emotional Dynamic oh this is a uh Chris and I early on had to

34:44
redefine our perspectives on certain emotions okay because sadness to me

34:53
isn't going to be the same as sadness to you and there there um Chris used the

34:59
word silly at times and that struck me it was that that was one of those

35:07
intrinsic memories it's like yeah it made me think of that story you told me about typing on the keyboard too hard oh

35:15
your your was it Grandpa uh uncle uncle you whacking you in the back of the head

35:20
like don't be silly with the keyboard you know that's what my mind yeah exactly yeah that much but yeah that far

35:27
armor background and that everything serious and whatever yeah yes so sorry I

35:33
didn't mean it's all good I went right to that keyboard moment in my mind and that's what we do yeah you follow me

35:41
because that's oh that's the same as this yeah so yes in that aspect any time

35:49
where you know Chris would use that kind of language I would become very

35:55
defensive yeah because that wasn't a the positive thing and and think about that

36:00
even with the terminology we use when I say I felt abandoned yeah you follow me

36:07
nobody wants to necessarily directly abandon someone you

36:13
know but yet if I'm able to recognize that that's a feeling that feeling is

36:19
every bit as valid as my feelings and I want to acknowledge that some things

36:25
that I do May elicit that feeling on your part yeah man I feel like if

36:33
there's one thing we could get out of this episode for anyone listening who is

36:38
struggling with communication it's it's that validity of emotions on both sides

36:46
and that empathy that says oh you're feeling that yes I never like when I

36:52
feel that so now it explains why you're frustrated at me or whatever the situation is because you're feeling that

36:57
and when I feel that way I also get P you know yes uh and vice versa but like

37:03
that's the basis of empathy yes but also not to wear that as like you said that

37:10
that to be able to put a a barrier or a boundary up that says I don't have to be

37:18
defensive because they feel that way and I may have caused it I like I

37:25
don't H I'm just yeah if we can just learn that those things are like valid

37:32
um yeah yeah and I'm and I'm thinking as as you're describing that you know we

37:39
tend to think of the eye statement as rudimentary as you know kindergarten but

37:46
I think it's foundational when we're able to recognize this is how I

37:52
feel and I'm able to recognize that that's okay cuz if I come at you and I

37:59
say you abandoned me right okay that's a thought at that point that's an

38:06
accusation yes and that's going to elicit defensiveness and that's what that's what couples do right in that

38:14
process but when I'm able to say I felt abandoned when this happened you know

38:22
that's the eye statement Dynamic that says okay this is this is what I was feeling

38:28
and and in this relationship I you're going to you're going to listen to what I'm feeling and

38:34
I'm going to strive to listen to what you're feeling and we're going to try to avoid this

38:40
defensiveness because what happens is when I start thinking and I'm no longer

38:46
able to empathize or just feel then I'm going to likely bring up some

38:51
defensiveness yeah because what I'm hearing is you think I'm an idiot mhm or

38:57
you think I'm careless oress unloving or yes when in reality no that wasn't the

39:05
thing I was doing is because I love you like that's that's very often a a

39:10
sticking point in you know marriage relationships where it's like the perception of what happened was

39:15
abandonment or you know the opposite of Love yeah something where the right

39:21
where the person here's a classic example the man works too late works too much

39:27
home that's perceived as not love where the man may have grown up with those

39:33
intrinsic feelings of like when I do this this is the best way I show you love right it's that provision it's the

39:41
I uh sacrifice for you sure right that's a very classic example I think that that

39:48
that's a Trope if you will yeah uh it's an implied form of love right and but

39:55
that but that's where that right so that Communication Breakdown happens where you don't love me you're never home no

40:01
you don't understand this is why how I love you or whatever and um but yeah being able to understand that both of

40:07
those this is something that when I want to talk about this there was one thought that just kept coming to my mind which

40:13
is feelings are valid oh sure but that doesn't mean they are the truth sure and

40:20
so I think that feelings are real but they're not always accurate right yes and they they don't represent they're um

40:28
they're a color on the map they don't necessarily represent the map the territory right like no I hear you yeah

40:35
and I think uh understanding that there is value in your emotions MH but that

40:42
they are not the truth like I feel like you don't love me doesn't mean you don't

40:47
love me MH right that feeling is valid and important and mean something and

40:52
should be worked through but it doesn't imply the truth that I think the feeling

40:58
it is saying right like sure that you actually don't you know unless of course you don't then and it's interesting that

41:05
you bring up the color with emotions because we can identify there is color

41:10
therapy to a certain degree to you know identify you know emotions based on a

41:16
color you know we think of blue and you know for sadness and those green room for peace you know yeah there's but red

41:24
for anger yes yeah yes yeah so all those come into play but yes you you bring up

41:31
a great point in that context of relationship well how gender or how our

41:38
our social our our family system develops what love looks like based on

41:46
our gender roles at times this is what the man does this is what the woman does well I grew up with a completely

41:52
different parental system than you know Chris did or you know you from Megan

41:57
so of course those roles are going to be different what love looks like what having a need met looks like is going to

42:05
be completely different and even among the same family a brother and a sister right like they they can exhibit love

42:12
and drastically different ways because like you said the way the gender rol is played out in their family sure the

42:18
women was expected to do this and the man was expected to do this and then that's what they yeah so then a brother

42:23
and sister might look EXA completely opposite even though and yeah I think it's very and I think

42:30
gender comes into that to a certain degree but from my perspective I'd also say yes they grew up in the same family

42:38
system but when another sibling came along the entire structure completely changes so even though you know there

42:45
was a firstborn child their experience in that system was completely different

42:51
or changed dramatically when the second child came along and the second child never had that first

42:57
experience so you know the the the entire structure CH they they didn't

43:03
grow up in the same family although they did you follow me in that same they

43:08
didn't have the same experience even though they grew up in the same family yeah if you don't mind can I steal your

43:16
diagram of course yeah yeah okay so I actually yeah actually let me make a a

43:23
part after you you steal the diagram to explain the diagram you sure you yeah good with that I'm good with that so he

43:29
he sent over this uh ven diagram sure and if you're not familiar with the word ven diagram ven diagrams are I don't

43:36
know they're always fun I enjoy them yeah it's basically overlapping C Justin gets excited about overlapping circles I

43:43
like vend diagrams uh they just do their job very well right they're they're a

43:48
way of illustrating a thing right so vend diagram if you're not aware of what it is is essentially overlapping circles

43:55
y right where uh Circle on the left is red circle on the right is blue and they overlap a sliver in the middle right I'm

44:02
holding my hands up as if two circles and you're doing a great job right here I can see exactly Mark the rest you have

44:09
to imagine it that middle sliver is purple sure right and so that's overlap

44:14
yeah that's the overlaps and then maybe you add a third color circle and move it up from the bottom and now it's dark

44:21
brown or whatever that that middle thing sure and so you might have a purple chunk you might have a brown chunk but

44:26
the colors are to represent ideology so in this case the one we're looking at on

44:31
the left is a blue circle that says rational mind sure right and on the right is a green circle that says

44:37
emotional mind and when you know you were talking about this a little bit it made me think of that attachment Theory

44:42
thing with that we talked about in the userfriendly episode so hey if you haven't listened to the userfriendly episode you need to it's it's good but

44:50
at the idea where be the way I felt when in those intrinsic memories whether I

44:56
was a abandoned and I you know I was left alone and and maybe that triggers this irrational mind where I'm on my own

45:03
I have to figure things out I have to think things through uh I can't depend where or maybe it's the other way where

45:10
they doed on me and you know I got my every need met all I had to do was whine a little bit right sure I don't know you

45:18
would understand those how they attach better but that I see how those things can affect how we end up being as an

45:25
adult like how those patterns play into where maybe I'm more emotional you know

45:30
whatever or I'm maybe more rational or like you said the gender roles could play a part or the position in your

45:36
family first second third child whatever sure the point is there's two sides this

45:42
by diagram but right in the middle I really like it's it has where the intersection it's the purple if you will

45:49
would be wise mind the overlap is wise mind yes because it's very important to

45:55
be able to have a rational mind and the emotional mind be able to combine them

46:01
have you know what they what they describe as wise mind but the few things that they T have in here is intuitive

46:07
thinking Arrangement and balance between rational and emotional mind living

46:12
mindfully um it's it's like I think of as this idea of seeing those waves come

46:17
against us and thinking about them and determining what I do with them right it's that proactive approach it's it's

46:25
the rational side to say what does this emotion mean to me today in some cases it means oh yeah that's the one I ignore

46:32
in this situation sure because it's a trigger and it's it's not reliable oh

46:37
this one I've learned and to then do this whatever that this is right um

46:46
anyway I really like it and uh just so we're clear rational mind is like someone who approaches knowledge

46:52
intellectually thinks logically uses past experience uses facts and research as well as planning they're focused the

46:59
emotional mind reason ofical think uh thinking is difficult uses only emotions to make decisions they're reactive tells

47:06
us how we are really doing uses core psychological needs they mostly Put negative things in the emotional mind

47:13
didn't they well the the part that I like about this is tells us how we are really doing oh yeah in other words we

47:20
need our emotions to basically help us help us

47:27
uh kind of like a thermometer it gives us a reading of where we are emotionally

47:34
and I and I think uh you know we can we can break these down but for me you know if I'm explaining rational mind I'm

47:40
going to tend to think and I don't mean to be stereotypical but rational mind I

47:46
I'm going to think of it guy MH just the facts just just tell me what I need to

47:51
know what does when when you do this this happens that's that's what I need to know I don't need to know that you

47:58
didn't get your report in I don't need to know all the other thing all the other issues that were a result of this

48:06
one thing not working I just need to know how it doesn't you know when it

48:11
doesn't work and what it does when it does that you follow me yep and on this other end of the extreme we might refer

48:17
to kind of the the the drama queen if you will you always you never you know

48:23
this this and I I probably shouldn't have done that with tone but you you get that idea that you know there's these

48:31
strong emotions that this person is routinely feeling and there is this sense of It's

48:39
Always this way and you you you fall and and that there again that those kind of

48:45
words are what elicit the reactivity on someone else's part because while

48:52
they're in Emotion mind saying you always you never you never do this for me you never come through you know the

49:01
the the rational mind is automatically thinking ah no that's not true I did

49:06
this I did this so we can already see how the communication breaks down yeah

49:12
so being able to identify that and say okay no in this circumstance not always

49:18
not never but in this moment I felt and then that's that allows the r

49:27
mind to be able to say okay that's what you felt and we're not going to try and

49:32
fix it we're going to allow it a rational mind says your feeling is

49:37
invalid basically the wise mind that intersection in the middle says oh that's what you thought now I can yes

49:45
now I have intuition right now I can use my rational mind to process that yes and

49:50
it's okay that you felt that way I just wanted to clarify because you said a rational mind will say oh you felt that

49:57
if we're using this ven diagram if you're only on that yeah rational side you would look at it and go nope invalid

50:04
input I need something different right that's not going to work what else you got you know and that and that's the thing and I and here again I'm not being

50:11
judgmental but I think in like our um you know armed services and you know

50:19
just Community servants like policemen firemen so often you know it is a

50:25
rational mind thinking that is g to save lives to a certain

50:30
degree because if I'm if if I'm not thinking someone may get hurt yeah and

50:36
yet at the same time we can't completely Live 24 hours a day avoiding all

50:45
emotion or ignoring all emotion because then we're not a healthy

50:51
individual and that that's I realize that's a difficult process for some people because they're rewarded you know

50:58
from their job from their circumstances by you know right you're you're you're

51:04
reinforced in One Direction or another so in the case of a police officer you're reinforced in the rational minded

51:10
it might become difficult to break out of that mold when you're at home with a a wife who's been home all alone with

51:16
her kids for a week because you've been on night shifts or whatever and it's

51:21
difficult to disengage from that training um and I you know before we're

51:27
all almost at of time I think but I a thing about emotional mind rational mind I think our natural tendency especially

51:34
if you grow up in like a judeo Christian type of family it's to go oh yeah the rational mind that's the husband and emotional mind that's the the wife or

51:41
whatever but I don't I I think that's that is not accurate like that's not

51:46
it's not always true like I know like one of my struggles like I said I've had to work through I've had an emotional

51:52
mind you know and um I like to think that I was not pansy or whatever I don't

51:58
think it means that right I think about too like you know going back to our gender episode we talked about toxic

52:05
masculinity a lot of that comes from emotional mind in a man this anger this

52:11
I need to control you this whatever are coming from an emotional I won't be you

52:17
whatever so I'm going to right like and but we don't think of that we don't naturally think of them as

52:23
being an emotional person we really should that's what's happening there that's what's underlying yeah yeah

52:29
that's what I've learned how I've learned to interact with people yeah right and vice versa like we think of a

52:36
woman that you know Mom wife whatever being uh emotional and that's not always

52:42
true sometimes they're overly rational and they can be cutting and cruel and some of the things I've heard even in

52:48
recovery like Mom said this to me and it just cut him so deep because it was this completely unemotional and very

52:54
irrational and like women are very capable of having too too much rational mind you know yeah I just thought that

53:01
was an important kind of followup that man this can happen across the Spectrum

53:07
yeah you know and it's interesting when when I look at this diagram for me I I I

53:13
guess the the person that comes to mind is Jesus for me personally you follow me

53:19
because I believe and uh um the short the shortest the shortest book I mean

53:25
the shortest verse in the book Bible is in John 11 MH okay well if we look at

53:30
that that's a moment when I believe Jesus demonstrated that it's okay to

53:36
have empathy because in that moment up till then he was he was talking when Lazarus

53:42
died his disciples were basically he was misunderstood by his disciples when he

53:48
was saying hey Lazarus is is sick you follow me and he's he's really dead but

53:55
it's not my time to go there and yet he he knows all of that he was

54:00
misunderstood by his disciples yet he continues in the process but when he gets there he sees Martha and Mary and

54:08
he knows that Lazarus is sick he knows in about 15 minutes he's GNA raise

54:14
Lazarus from the dead he's got all this in his mind and yet rational mind yes

54:20
and yet at that point when he experiences their loss their grieving

54:26
he's able to go with them into the emotion and have empathy for them with

54:31
them and cry over their momentary loss and Jesus wept and Jesus wept and I

54:39
think for me that's that's that demonstrates wholeness yeah of a person

54:46
is the ability to know some things and yet still engage with people at an

54:52
emotional level to the point of understanding when they're hurt we can hurt with them we can have

54:59
empathy for them in that emotion and I and to me that's that's a wise mind that

55:05
can basically say okay I can go with you into this emotion and we're going to be

55:11
okay yeah I don't have to say no cut that out stop it this is what you need

55:20
to do and we're going to fix it yeah because that just doesn't at that point

55:25
I'm no longer accepting that person at that level I have to go to that level

55:31
and say okay this is where you're at and then from there we can choose a path

55:37
that seems appropriate from that perspective yeah she's saying Jesus is the perfect

55:43
shade of purple and her red blue Vin diagram so yeah that's that's the that's

55:49
the goal is to get to that that you want to know what that color looks like just look at Jesus and yeah yeah that's and

55:57
and I love that at times in our at some sometimes in a session I'll even say to

56:04
people it's like um when anger anger is and you fill in

56:13
the blank you follow me I'll I'll use that because that helps me understand what

56:20
their Viewpoint of anger is you follow me because anger's anger is an emotion

56:26
but so often we grow up with these dynamics that saywell anger is wrong

56:32
anger is bad okay no anger is an emotion anger has

56:38
purpose and I and I think that's the interesting part for me because when I look at you know scripture and other

56:44
things it's like yeah God was angry Jesus was angry and yet Ephesians tells

56:51
us you know in your anger do not sin so we don't have to be

56:56
victims or we don't have to be controlled by anger but yet we can

57:02
recognize that when I'm feeling anger there's likely something that needs to

57:08
change and so I can I don't have to be aggressive and I don't have to be

57:13
passive I can learn to be assertive in the midst of that anger and say okay

57:19
this is what needs to happen from my perspective I'm not telling you what you need to do but in this situation this is

57:26
what I'm going to do yeah and I think that's what that's what Jesus was as a model for us it's like you can go that

57:33
way but as for me I'm going this way yeah and I and and if you want to call me out I'm happy to

57:40
address those Dynamics in your life if you want to say I'm something but yet at

57:45
the same time it was always about their relationship their their standing with

57:51
God and that misunderstanding that many people have yeah because to summarize emotions are not sin exactly but they

57:59
could certainly send you in toward sin right like if it's just like anything in our life it can become an idol yes and

58:05
so fear can become an idol and be placed in front of God and he says get that out

58:11
of the way yes and I think that for me that's where balancing the two is so

58:17
important yeah and it's not it's not always a a balancing but yet being able

58:23
to recognize that overlapping of the wise mind that says okay in this context

58:29
in this moment what it what is really going on and being able to stay there in

58:36
such a way that models that for other people who might

58:41
value emotion or rationality too highly

58:46
yeah be able to connect with both is so important yes the

58:52
overlap good I think this was a good episode

58:58
well I think I think this is what we've recorded yeah so at that point whether

59:05
uh hopefully others enjoy it as well but it's been uh it's been a it's been a

59:11
fast episode it's certainly been like most right there's there's always more

59:16
there's more there's more to unpack yeah well we can always do it next part two it's part two yeah but

59:24
either way it's very very much how we see it how we see [Music]

59:32
it hey thank you for listening to our podcast if you like how I see it please

59:39
do all the things that podcasts tell you to do subscribe rate review follow us uh

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59:52
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