Mark:

Speaking of primarily, there’s there are eight primary emotions.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

You know, that are acknowledged, you know, and granted.

Justin:

Do I get to guess these?

Mark:

Sure, if you want to guess them, go for it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Go for it.

Justin:

Sadness.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Yes

Mark:

Nice. Ding ding ding ding ding. That’s one.

Justin:

That’s what. One for one. Happiness.

Mark:

Joy? Yeah. Joy.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Fear.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Uh Inger?

Mark:

Yep. Nice job. You’re doing well.

Justin:

What am I, four for four? Alright.

Mark:

Yes, four for four.

Justin:

Uh uh Anxious?

Mark:

Um

Justin:

worry?

Mark:

You’re good you’re gonna have a little bit of um Yeah, I’m a I’m

Justin:

call that a miss

Mark:

Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg.

Justin:

This is a podcast that works to counter cultural Polarization through thoughtful conversations.

Mark:

Morning, sir.

Justin:

Good morning

Mark:

How are you, Justin?

Justin:

I’m well. How are you?

Mark:

I am also well.

Justin:

It’s been it’s been a couple weeks.

Mark:

Yeah, it’s been a little while. Yeah. Just stuff going on with us individually, but uh yeah, it’s good to be back here.

Justin:

It is. And our uh our audience won’t see any dips.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That’s the beauty of being a little bit ahead.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Um However, we’re not now we’re not a little a bit. Oh well now we’re just a teeny bit ahead. That’s right.

Mark:

We’re sufficiently ahead.

Justin:

Sufficiently, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So it’s good to be back at it. Back at the the studio.

Mark:

Yes. Congratulations by the way.

Justin:

On what?

Mark:

On Thousand Listens.

Justin:

Oh yes. Yes. We crossed over the threshold. A thousand people have hit play and listened for whatever. Anchor deems a sufficient amount of time to call it a play.

Mark:

Oh, okay. Is that how that works?

Justin:

Yeah, I don’t know.

Mark:

Oh wow. Okay.

Justin:

They listen to your podcast.

Mark:

Oh wow. Okay.

Justin:

Which, you know, if they caught the right part, it might be fair, but

Mark:

Yeah. But that’s not necessarily Yeah, you could kinda have to listen fifteen seconds just to get a just a a gist of what’s

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I don’t know I don’t know that perfect with ink. but I know like some video play metrics they base it on a pretty small chunk of time. My guess with Inker, I tease a little bit. My guess would be it’s more than 15 seconds. My guess would be a several Several minutes, but I do think they’re they probably don’t aren’t counting the full play.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

This is a bunch of uh what are you talking baseball that what that phrase is?

Mark:

Talking baseball I I had to know that phrase is like

Justin:

inside baseball inside baseball.

Mark:

Oh okay.

Justin:

Inside baseball.

Mark:

Gotcha.

Justin:

Yeah. Behind the scenes nonsense that nobody cares about.

Mark:

Exactly. But that’s that’s what I was

Justin:

fun.

Mark:

That was what I was congratulating you for though, by the way. Nice job.

Justin:

For the inside baseball. For the thousand plus plays, yes.

Mark:

So yes, thank you.

Justin:

We did it.

Mark:

Thank you. Thank you our listeners. Yes. Exactly.

Justin:

There’s been a few people in the last couple of weeks that said, hey, I just listened to your podcast. Yes. I was like, how was it? Well I haven’t got that far yet.

Mark:

But hey, they started

Justin:

they started listening, which is exciting. Um no I that yeah, I’ve heard I’ve heard several people come up, you know they’ve come up to me and said they’ve started listening. So that’s exciting.

Mark:

No doubt.

Justin:

Um so yeah, I guess it’s good we keep doing this, huh?

Mark:

I i it’s it’s good as far as I’m concerned. Yeah.

Justin:

Let’s get a thousand more plays, huh?

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

And then Yeah, we’ll see after that. Maybe we’ll get five hundred after.

Mark:

Oh wow.

Justin:

I don’t know. All right, we’re rambling, Mark.

Mark:

But it’s okay. So Go ahead.

Justin:

Today is

Mark:

that what

Justin:

is that we’re gonna Sure. Yeah. Today we’re gonna talk a little bit about the concept of thinking versus feeling. And uh I just wanna set it up a little bit. Go ahead. For a while Mark and I were meeting um together as a result of our involvement in Celebrate Recovery. I ‘m gonna say that right. Yeah. And so we were purposely trying to discuss certain things about the the twelve steps as we worked through them together and um One thing that I would often r say, it was kind of a a catchphrase for me, is, well, I think Or no.

Mark:

No.

Justin:

I feel like I feel like this is how this is. Or I feel like that when this happens, this is wh why I did that. I feel like I feel like in uh Um, Mark would call me out on that and say, Well, do you feel that or do you think that? And I know the first time or maybe first several times, I’m I’m like, I don’t really know what you’re getting at, Mark.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It was a little bit lost on me, but you continued to hone in on that and work on that and you know we we chatted about it essentially to to describe like here’s why that matters right yeah and so I think I would love to share that same conversation conversation with our listeners and and kind of break it down even further and I know you have some some awesome insight into that. So with that I would love to hand it over to the U. And

Mark:

and I think that’s that’s where I come from as a therapist It’s like when I hear someone say feel like, my automatic thought is to say, okay. Is that a thought or is that an emotion? And typically, okay, because we’re hearing feel and we’re hearing like all at the same time, it’s like I’m a just use like myself but I want to recognize whenever we have to put like after feel we are typically thinking Okay. And I think in our c I think it’s a cultural thing because I my thought is that we want to recognize That it’s just a feeling and there’s nothing I can do about it. Because it and it becomes a little more nebulous. It’s a little less. mean or it’s a little less something in my mind that I’m not necessarily I don’t have to necessarily acknowledge the fact that I this is really what I’m thinking

Justin:

I was gonna add a comment there. Go ahead. And I was unintentionally gonna say, I feel like when I do that what

Mark:

are you what are you trying to do?

Justin:

I think when I do that I’m trying to take the edge off of Right. It’s like this idea of like it’s not as as harsh of a thing as an actual thought.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Right? It’s just intuitive thing, right? But yeah, I I think in I think kind of what you were getting at with me specifically in our conversations was that maybe it was a cop out. Is that

Mark:

and I I would I I think sometimes it’s a cop out And I think as a as a culture, sometimes we want to recognize how feelings, you just, there isn’t anything you can do. about them so if I just feel like this there really isn’t anything I can do because our feelings our feelings do come and go It’s not as if there’s some great thing we can do about our emotions. Okay, and statistically speaking, you know, we the average emotion lasts between 90 and 127. Seconds. So we are, I mean, granted, now some emotions last longer. Sadness can last for days So when I factor that in, you know, and the average is still ninety to a hundred and twenty, I can feel a lot of emotions in a short amount of time. Does that make sense? So and and I think for me, the reason I like to delineate that difference between what I’m thinking and what I’m feeling is I am when I’m recognizing okay, emotions may come and emotions may go, kind of like a boat on the water. You see, you see that speck down at the horizon. It gets closer. I g I can identify the boat. I know in the case of emotions, I know maybe what that emotion is. Or at least I’m allowed, I’m recognizing I’m feeling something. And yet that just like the boat, it will become a speck in the on the other horizon shortly. So it will come and it will go.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

That’s primarily what our emotions do. Speaking of primarily, there’s there are eight primary emotions.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

You know, that are acknowledged, you know, and granted.

Justin:

Do I get to guess these?

Mark:

Sure, if you want to guess them, go for it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Go for it.

Justin:

Sadness.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Nice. Ding ding ding ding ding. That’s one.

Justin:

That’s what. One for one. Uh happiness.

Mark:

Joy? Yeah. Joy.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Fear.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Uh Inger?

Mark:

Yep. Nice job. You’re doing well.

Justin:

What am I four for four? All right.

Mark:

Yes, four for four.

Justin:

Uh uh Anxious?

Mark:

Um you’re gonna have a little bit of um Yeah, I’m a I’m a

Justin:

We’ll call that a miss.

Mark:

Yeah, kind of and not it’s okay. There’s gonna be surprise can be part of that. Shock, wonder. So you know surprise can be if depending on my anger.

Justin:

Surprise is one of them

Mark:

Surprise is one.

Justin:

I don’t get that one.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

So I’m four I’m five I’m four for five.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Unless you just said wonder was another one. Because you just listed several words.

Mark:

Yes. Wonder is part of surprise.

Justin:

Oh, okay. Okay, okay, okay.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Alright.

Mark:

Man. This is tough to do in a quick format.

Justin:

Those are all the ones I feel. So no.

Mark:

Okay. Oh no, there’s there’s probably another one you’re feeling

Justin:

Confusion?

Mark:

Uh

Justin:

doubt?

Mark:

Doubt

Justin:

not so much. Those are more uh thoughts than emotions.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

This is this is why we’re doing this.

Mark:

This is exactly why we’re doing this. Because I want to recognize there’s eight primary ones, but typically if we Talk with an individual, they might be able to come off with three or four or five off the top of their head. But I want to recognize within these eight, and I’m going to share the other ones. Shame, shame, guilt. You know, when I make a mistake, okay. Um disgust, contempt, you know, that that that feeling of, you know, you disgust me or even yeah. Uh surprise, interest, joy, fear, sadness, and anger. Those are those are the eight. So in that process, and then there are all this is this this is another part of the emotions, sometimes those are primary emotions, and there’s also secondary emotions So when I feel shame, okay, a secondary emotion that might go along with that is I can I now when I feel shame, I feel angry. Or when I feel, you know, disgust. I might feel anger as well. Or when I feel angry, I might, or when I feel fearful, I might have a certain level of anger that goes along with that. because I can remember a time when I was scared. You follow me? And it and that’s where our emotions can kind of get layered, if you will. Kind of like the onion.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So it’s important to be able to recognize what are emotions and yet being able to untangle my thoughts from those emotions. So when I’m feeling fearful, okay, what do what have I learned to do? You follow me? And that’s where our thinking and our feeling can get confusing because we can learn Th we we we develop thoughts based on how we are feeling. So I don’t want to feel scared. So what do I do? So I might become angry. as a part of that defensiveness so that you don’t get close enough to me to hurt me anymore. You follow me?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I and I and I I realize we’ve talked about emotions primarily. And I want to recognize the reason I like to delineate that difference is the emotions will come and the emotions will go. But I think we learn many of our emotions within our family systems. You know, it’s that prime our families are our, you know, our initial social interaction So, and yet I bring what I learned within that family system into a lot of my social interactions outside of that family because that’s where I learned them.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

So now my thoughts become important. And I don’t even always necessarily realize it. But when I recognize, when I’m hearing myself say feel like At that poem, at that point, it can be a little red flag that goes off in my mind. And I’m able to say, okay, what am I thinking? Because if I’m able to acknowledge what I’m thinking, okay, give you give me an example for your feel-like.

Justin:

I feel like when this person does that, they’re saying this about me. You know? Okay. Like that’s an example. I feel like when, you know, this person doesn’t respect what I say whatever doesn’t do what I suggest in the meeting

Mark:

sure

Justin:

they are disrespecting me or whatever, right? Like that’s an example. Sure.

Mark:

So I’m thinking that that person may not respect me. Or even I’m thinking that that person is outright disrespecting me in front of this group. Now, is that 100% accurate? I may not necessarily know that, but at the same time, I think when we acknowledge it as a thought. we can we’re better prepared to address it in such a way that says okay this is really what I’m thinking Because the reason I say that is whenever we acknowledge our thoughts to a certain degree, we are better able to take control of them.

Justin:

Yeah, so

Mark:

in such a way that says, okay, I’m responsible for what I’m thinking, and there’s something I can do about this. Because sometimes that’s that’s where that’s where the tough part comes into play. It’s like if I’m not uh necessarily addressing what I’m thinking, I’ll continue to feel like, feel like, feel like, feel like, feel like in such a way that go ahead.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Never takes ownership.

Justin:

Yeah. It you yeah you just make me think of the Stephen Guy’s push for uh Proactivity versus reactivity and essentially feeling like is a reactive thing, right? It’s literally reacting to your emotions. I feel like feel like. Sure. Therefore I’m reacting to that or whatever. Where proactivity is saying I may feel that, but what do I think? It’s this uh it’s this conversion of the reactive response into a proactive Whatever that is, right? Like that’s it seems like that’s always been your goal with me anyway, is to say, okay, but you know, it the Uh to your point, like we can be pushed and pulled by our emotions all day long. And that will happen if we allow it. It it but that is the reactive approach. It’s literally reacting to every whim of every emotion that comes across And then w we we’re like yeah, the ship at sea that’s just tossed back and forth by the waves. Um we’re thinking is this idea of like turn on the rudder, turn on the motor and start going against those waves, right? Like figure out where you’re going with this and those emotions will come and go and it’s okay to recognize them and address them and work through them, but to have a you know, to recognize that they don’t define you, they don’t push you, they don’t pull you, unless you let them.

Mark:

And it and it and from my perspective in a lot of cases, that is what emotions, I’ll say, are designed to do is to create a response. Now there would be those who might say, you know, okay, this is a this is a this is a primal aspect of you know evolution. you know, to the point of saying, you know, it was designed to protect us, you know, and the whole caveman perspective as emotions were developed, I recognize from my perspective that you know, I believe emotions are part of a a God given design that we have. And I think that’s when we we can break this down to you know eight primary emotions but I think part of our emotional vocabulary Is the ability to recognize that each of those eight can be very nuanced. And I think it’s important for us to be able to you know, communicate that, especially in our social interactions, because there’s there’s definitely a difference between uh feeling fear feeling or feeling abandoned. Or feeling um anger versus contempt. You follow me? So I think when we’re able to communicate and we are able to Grow our emotional vocabulary, we’re far better off in our ability to communicate with one another. Because, you know, when when I feel abandoned, okay, that’s just demonstr that’s just the uh a feeling that says, okay, I was here and I felt Like I felt alone because in this moment we were together side by side and you chose to do something else. You follow me? And after that, I did feel alone, but I really felt abandoned in that process. You follow me? And that that can when we talk, when we’re able to talk like that, we’re better able to have empathy. in such a way that says, oh, okay. Yeah, I s I I s I was there with you and I realized that I left to go take care of something

Justin:

uh

Mark:

a phone call and I can recognize that that’s what happened. It wasn’t necessarily my intent, but when we’re able to identify emotion and keep them at that level, we’re far better off or we’re far more able to avoid defensiveness. Because I’m just recognizing that you had a feeling and that feeling’s okay.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But when your feelings and thoughts come at me and say, you should have, you should have known. Okay, now we’re starting to talk about what I think you’re thinking you should know. You follow me? And it it’s not accurate to be able to say you should have known.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay? And that’s the part that we can challenge. No, Justin just didn’t know that I was gonna feel that when he left. Does that make sense?

Justin:

It does. I’d love to poke some holes.

Mark:

Go for it.

Justin:

Uh Just a yeah. Is there room for saying I feel like, especially for you as a counselor , you know, listening to someone who ‘s working through some stuff like as an introductory like start, right? As a as the beginning. Is there room for that?

Mark:

Sure, there’s room for that. And and I’ll I’ll even walk through that in

Justin:

here’s why I asked.

Mark:

Go ahead.

Justin:

In your example. Uh it’s important to examine your feelings, right? Like I th I think um so yeah, so in other words, those emotions will just push us and pull us and we won’t recognize it. Recognizing it, I think, is step step one in in in in prevention, right? Uh of dealing with those emotions. uh affecting you in every whim, right? Like I think recognizing that, oh, these emotions are coming, right? So I feel like is an important first part of recognizing to say When that person goes away in your example, I feel like they abandoned me or I feel or I just feel um alone or abandoned. or whatever that is, you know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Is that does that make sense? Is that

Mark:

so that makes sense? Um and for every time you’re using feel-like, I can also submit that I’m thinking I was abandoned.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

You follow me?

Justin:

But but sometimes it’s not even an actual I know what you’re saying, but it’s not an uh a conscious thought. It’s a subconscious leaning towards abandonment.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I don’t actually think in my mind, oh, that person abandoned me. But I’m just like like you said, the primary emotion is just anger and I’m not sure why and I just know they left and I’m just ups But I didn’t actually think that I was abandoned.

Mark:

Uh-huh.

Justin:

That’s how I you know what I mean?

Mark:

And it Here’s here would be this is my thought in the process.

Justin:

Poke holes in my hole

Mark:

pokey. What are we left with then?

Justin:

We’ll repair them at the end.

Mark:

But This is where I come from. It’s okay to be able to say, I’m not exactly sure what I’m feeling in response to that. I felt alone. I felt abandoned. And I’m not saying it’s even your fault. I’m recognizing this is my stuff. And I may not actually even be sure That that’s exactly what I’m feeling. But that’s that’s how I felt You follow me? And I um um yes, to answer you I would answer your question, initially question, is it okay to say feel like yeah, it’s okay? But I think it’s important that we’re recognizing that as part of a quandary, a wondering, as far as this process of being able to understand. There’s a lot of feelings, and I don’t necessarily always take control, take ownership of them. And some of those Some of those are so primary and I I don’t use that I don’t I don’t use that word Loosely, I’m not trying to say, but I want to recognize, okay. I’m breaking it down here a little bit. I need to recognize. That we have two forms of memory. Okay. The reason we don’t have early childhood, early, early childhood memories is due to intrinsic. memory it’s in there we experience something in that attachment theory dynamic if you will i i may have felt abandoned Or I may have felt excluded, or I felt anxiety, you know, even as a child when my needs weren’t necessarily met. So where what do I do with that? Okay, I cried and someone didn’t show up. Okay, that’s intrinsic memory. We don’t have words to communicate that We have that but once we develop language we’re able to have extrinsic memory so I can communicate what I saw, what I experienced. Does that make sense? And there would be a part of me and uh this ability to untangle and and look at patterns and cycles, some of that difficulty in in communicating emotion may have a lot to do with those intrinsic memories.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

When someone didn’t meet that need.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

An attachment dynamic. So that’s that’s where I would come back to when I’m feeling alone, when I’m feeling abandoned. Okay, that may be a little bit difficult to be able to create that understanding when that when I experience that same thing again And I think that’s where, from my perspective, that’s where a lot of our patterns and cycles are developed.

Justin:

Yeah. I I think about, you know, even celebrate recovery step groups or whatever, and I’m sure you and counseling, but like some of those amazing breakthroughs are when you know, an intrinsic memory is revealed, right? Like an intrinsic pattern a pattern developed in that intrinsic memory phase of our life. And someone goes, Oh, I get it. I do this every single time because of that thing.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And I’ve never put words to it. Right? Exactly. Never, you know.

Mark:

And I would say, and I know typically at weddings we are, you know, weddings we’ll typically use 1 Corinthians 13, you know, on love. But my favorite part for me personally is the part where, you know, Paul says when I was a child I spoke like a child, I reasoned like a child, and when I became an adult, I put my childish ways behind me. And I would I would dare say from my perspective that we don’t always put all of our childish ways behind us.

Justin:

Because to your point, we don’t know that’s what it is.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Right? It’s it’s it is inside us that intrinsic memory it is part of our pattern that we have not you know brought light to brought words to brought whatever and so we’re yeah that’s such a it’s such a good analogy And and very true, like I think of my own breakthroughs in in my you know working through stuff, recognizing like yeah Some of those things were so childish. Right. Like exactly what you’re saying. And I of course I didn’t feel childish at the time and I would have been offended if you would have you know, whatever, but looking back on those patterns going Wow, yeah, that’s that was very childish. You know, and I think for me, uh

Mark:

That would be where from my perspective, that would where be where feel light comes into play when I’m really just trying to develop some of that. And and instead from my perspective, I would just say, you know what, this is what I’m thinking. I’m not a hundred percent sure on this But I’m thinking this is where that feeling comes from. You follow you follow me. And and here again, it’s not me trying to reiterate my point, but it is to that point of creating that wondering that says Okay, maybe it’s this. And it’s okay for me to start thinking about it that way in such a way that says, I’m not 100% sure. I don’t want to be judgmental. I don’t want to be arrogant. But at the same time, let’s let’s let’s address this in such a way that says, I’m thinking this is what’s going on.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

When I feel this, I tend to do that.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, I think it’s interesting too because there is also semantics. among people, right? Like among among individuals we use certain phrases and words meaning different things, right? And so for me when I say I feel like what you just described about these are this is what I’m processing through This is my thoughts on the matter. W that was how I conveyed that was I feel like. And I think since our conversations understand that that was a different meaning for you and did I think that Like the translation got lost and also uh arguably isn’t the right way to translate some of that, right?

Mark:

I’m hearing what you’re saying. Yeah, I’m not saying it’s a wrong way, I just want to acknowledge that other side of the equation

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

In this process of thinking and feeling.

Justin:

Yeah, and so the other thing I was thinking about too is the process of you first start by recognizing those m feelings, right? And so

Mark:

Yes. Dis

Justin:

possessing them, thinking about them, right. And so one of the put uh put us put off childish things that I had to do was was to do that. Just start there. Like look at your emotions and recognize what they’re doing to you, you know, and and take ownership of them. That proactive approach. to the r reactive, you know, instead of being reactive to them. Um and so one of the things I had to do pretty early on in in in my process of healing and recovery was stop trusting my feelings so darn much.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And so that was where that vernacular came from for me was like I feel like was a way to say I don’t trust this But here it is.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

You know, and I think

Mark:

this is what I’m thinking about. I’m not sure.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And it was it that was an important like process for me to get to that and I almost like took our conversations as a challenge to go from Okay, you’ve thought about this enough. What are you now thinking about? Like what’s what’s next after that, right? Like you’ve now recognized these patterns. You’ve now recognized these emotions that come and go or whatever. Now what? You know, it’s kind of the thinking part versus just feel like, okay, but now what? You know? And I think that was my takeaway. from some of our conversations, like, yeah, it’s a good point now. What? You know, like what do I think about this? How do I respond to this? And Um it move is like a a a process of movement from the first step being recognizing, the next step being, okay, now what? And some of those emotions I’ve learned I can just ignore. Like when they come, I know what it is, I look at it, go, yep, there you are again, and then we move on with our life and and that’s been very valuable to to get to that point in a life a few things and then there are other things where it’s like I’ve never thought about now what and I’m still processing that or wrestling is yeah a word we use right like I don’t know. In some cases it means this, in some cases it means that. But thinking is pretty important, right? Like to determine what those. Yeah, so that’s a little bit about Yeah.

Mark:

And I and I will say, and this is this is this is part of my this is why I’m thankful that we’re creating Because I think in our culture we can go in one of two extremes. You know, we either become emotions or all that matter. or or thoughts are all that matter. And I think, you know, that becomes I think that becomes a comfort level to each individual person because I’m more comfortable in my emotions because I don’t necessarily they can they can I’m I’m okay being that boat tossed on the on the way. And and in in some ways my emotions create a sense of connection with other people who are emotionally driven as well.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And yeah, you know, we our our thoughts, you know, can be that same thing. And I and it it’s n uh I think about it from the context of how often If we were to, you know, bring a bunch of couples into the room, you know, n I would say 90% of people, if you were to say, how many of you struggle with communication? You know, whenever I work with couples, you know, or even in group settings, it’s like, you know, communication’s always that that that primary, you know, it’s gonna get the majority of hands. It’s like we just can’t talk. And I think so often, you know, and I’ll I’ll bring it back even to the emotional dynamic. Oh, this is a uh Chris and I early on had to redefine our perspectives on certain emotions Okay? Because sadness to me isn’t going to be the same as sadness to you. And Chris used the word silly. at times and that struck me at that it was that would that was one of those intrinsic memories.

Justin:

Yeah, it made me think of that story you told me about typing on the keyboard too hard. Your was it grandpa?

Mark:

Uh uncle.

Justin:

Uncle you know whacking you in the back of the head like don’t be silly with the keyboard. That’s what my my yeah, exactly. Yeah, he was talking about But yeah, I that farmer background and that everything serious and whatever. Yeah.

Mark:

Yes. So

Justin:

sorry, I didn’t mean it. It’s all good. I went right to that keyboard moment in my mind.

Mark:

And that’s what we do.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me? Because that’s oh, that’s the same as this.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So yes, in that aspect, any time where you know, Chris would use that kind of language, I would become very defensive.

Justin:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark:

Because that wasn’t a positive thing. And you and think about that, even with the terminology we use when I say I felt abandoned.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me? Nobody wants to necessarily directly abandon someone. You know, but yet if I’m able to recognize that that’s a feeling, that feeling is every bit as valid as my feeling. And I want to acknowledge that some things that I do may elicit that feeling on your part.

Justin:

Yeah. Man, I feel like if there’s one thing we could get out of this episode for anyone listening who is struggling with communication. It’s that validity of emotions on both sides and that empathy that says Oh, you’re feeling that.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

I never like when I feel that, so now it explains why you’re frustrated at me or whatever the situation is because you’re feeling that and when I feel that way I also get pressure you know

Mark:

yes

Justin:

uh and vice versa but like

Mark:

that’s the basis of empathy

Justin:

yes but also not to wear that as like you said that that to be able to put a a barrier or a boundary up that says I don’t have to be defensive.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Because they feel that way. And I may have caused it. I like I don’t Ugh just yeah. If we could just learn that those things are o like valid um yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. And I’m and I’m thinking as you as you’re describing that, you know, we tend to think of the I statement as rudimentary as you know kindergarten but I think it’s foundational when we’re able to recognize this is how I feel. And I’m able to recognize that that’s okay. Because if I come at you and I say you abandoned me.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

That’s a thought at that point.

Justin:

That’s an accusation. Yes.

Mark:

And that’s gonna elicit defensiveness. And that’s what that’s what couples do

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

In that process. But when I’m able to say I felt abandoned when this happened.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

You know, that’s the I statement dynamic that says, okay, this is this is what I was feeling. And and in this relationship, I you’re gonna you’re gonna listen to what I’m feeling and I’m gonna strive to listen to what you’re feeling. And we’re gonna try to avoid this defensiveness because what happens is when I start thinking and I’m no longer able to empathize or just feel, then I’m gonna likely bring up some defensiveness.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because what I’m hearing is you think I’m an idiot. Or you think I’m

Justin:

Careless or unloving or

Mark:

that wasn’t

Justin:

the thing I was doing is because I love you. Like that’s a that’s very often a uh sticking point point in you know r marriage relationships where it’s like the perception of what happened was abandonment or the you know the opposite of love.

Mark:

Yeah. Where the person love

Justin:

it the here’s a classic example. The man works too late, works too much, isn’t home. That’s perceived as not love. Where the man may have grown up with those intrinsic feelings of like when I do this, this is the best way I show you love.

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

Right? It’s that provision. It’s the I uh sacrifice for you.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right. That’s a very classic example I think. Yeah. That that that’s a trope, if you will.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Uh

Mark:

it’s an implied form of love.

Justin:

Right. And but that but that’s where the right, so that communication breakdown happens where you don’t love me, you’re never home. No, you don’t understand. This is why, how I love you, or whatever.

Mark:

And

Justin:

um Um but yeah, being able to understand that both of those that this is something that when I want to talk about this, that there was one thought that just kept coming in my h mine, which is feelings are valid.

Mark:

Oh sure.

Justin:

But that doesn’t mean they are the truth.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And so I think that

Mark:

Feelings are real but they’re not always accurate.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And they they don’t represent they’re they’re um They’re a color on the map. They don’t necessarily represent the map, the territory, right? Like and I think uh understanding that there is value in your emotion. But that they are not the truth. Like the I feel like you don’t love me doesn’t mean you don’t love me.

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

Right? That feeling is valid and important and means something and should be worked through, but it doesn’t imply the truth that I think the feeling m it is saying, right? Like that you actually don’t

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Unless of course you don’t, then that’s a whole thing.

Mark:

And it’s interesting that you bring up the color with emotions because we can identify there is color therapy to a certain degree to you know identify you know emotions based on a color. You know, we think of blue and you know for sadness and the

Justin:

room. Peace

Mark:

you know, yeah, there’s but

Justin:

red for anger.

Mark:

Yes. Yes.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So all those come into play. But yes, you you bring up a great point in that uh context of relationship well how gender or how our our social our our family system

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

develops what love looks like

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Based on our gender roles at times. This is what the man does, this is what the woman does. Well, I grew up with a completely different parental system than you know, Chris. did or you know you from Megan so of course those roles are going to be different what love looks like what having a need met looks like is going to be completely different Right.

Justin:

And even among the same family, a brother and a sister, right? Like they they can exhibit love in drastically different ways because like you said, the way

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

The women was expected to do this and the man was expected to do this, and then that’s what they Yeah, so then a brother and sister might look exact the completely opposite even though and yeah, I I think it’s very

Mark:

and I think gender comes into that to a certain degree but from my perspective I’d also say yes they grew up in the same family system But when another sibling came along, the entire structure completely changes. So even though, you know, there was a firstborn child, their experience in that system was completely different or changed dramatically when the second child came along. The second child never had that first experience. So you know the the the entire structure changed. They didn’t grow up in the same family although they did, you follow me, in that same ex they didn’t have the same experience even though they grew up in the same family.

Justin:

Yeah. If you don’t mind, can I steal your diagram? Of course.

Mark:

Yeah, yeah.

Justin:

Okay. So

Mark:

I actually yeah, I’ll actually let me make a a part after you. You steal the diagram. Explain the diagram

Justin:

You sure you ‘re not sure? Yeah, I’m good with that.

Mark:

I’m good with that.

Justin:

So he he sent over this uh Venn diagram. Sure. And if you’re not familiar with w the word vi Venn diagram, Venn diagrams are I don’t know. They’re always fun. I I enjoy them.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It’s basically overlapping.

Mark:

Justin gets excited about overlapping surface.

Justin:

I like Venn diagrams. Uh they just do their job very well, right? They’re they’re uh they’re a way of illustrating a thing. Right. So a vendig diagram if you’re not aware about it, is this essentially overlapping circles.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Right? Where uh circle on the left is red, circle on the right is blue, and they overlap a sliver in the middle, right? I’m holding my hands up as if two circles are.

Mark:

You’re doing a great job right here. I can see exactly what you’re doing.

Justin:

Mark, the rest of you you’ll have to imagine it, but that middle sliver is purple.

Mark:

Sure. Right?

Justin:

And so that’s the overlap. Yeah, that’s the overlaps. And then maybe you add a third color w circle and move it up from the bottom and now it’s dark brown or whatever that that middle thing.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And so you might have a purple chunk, you might have a brown chunk, but The colors are to represent ideology. So in this case, the one we’re looking at, on the left is a blue circle that says rational mind.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right. And on the right is a green circle that says emotional mind. And when you know you were talking about this a little bit, it made me think of that attachment theory thing with that we talked about about the user friendly episode.

Mark:

Sure. So

Justin:

hey if you haven’t listened to the user friendly episode, you need to. It’s it’s good. But at the idea where be uh the way I felt when I in those intrinsic memories memories. Whether I was abandoned and I ha you know, I was a left alone and and maybe that triggers this irrational mind where I’m on my own, I have to figure things out, I have to think things through. Uh I I can’t depend where or maybe it’s the other way where they doted on me and er you know, a I I got my every need met, all I had to do was whine a little bit, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I don’t know you would understand those how they attach better, but the I see how those things can affect how I end up being as an adult, like how those patterns play into where maybe I’m more emotional, you know, or whatever, or I’m maybe more rational, or like you said, the gender roles could play a part. or the position in your family, first, second, third child, whatever.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

The point is there’s two sides to this blend diagram, but right in the middle, I really like it’s it has uh where the intersection is the purple if you will would be wise mind.

Mark:

The overlap is wise mind, yes.

Justin:

Because it’s very important to be able to have a rational mind and the emotional mind be able to combine them to have, you know, what they what they describe as wise mind, but with the the few things that they taught have in here is intuitive thinking, arrangement and balance between rational and emotional mind living mindfully. Um it’s a it’s like I think of it as this idea of seeing those waves come against us and thinking about them and determining what I do with them.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

It’s that proactive or pro It’s it’s the rational side to say, what does this emotion mean to me today? In some cases it means, oh yeah, that’s the one I ignore in this situation.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Because it’s a trigger and it’s it’s not reliable. Oh, this one I’ve learned and to then do this, whatever that this is. right. Um anyway, I really like it. And uh just so we’re clear, rational mind is like someone who th approaches knowledge intellectually, thinks logically, uses past experience, uses facts and research. as well as planning, they’re focused, the emotional mind, reason and logical think uh thinking is difficult, uses only emotions to make decisions, they’re reactive, tells us how we are really doing. uses core psychological needs. They mostly put negative things in the emotional mind, didn’t they?

Mark:

Well I the the part that I like about this this tells us how we are really doing.

Justin:

Oh yeah.

Mark:

In other words, we need our emotions to basically help us Help us, uh, kind of like a thermometer. It gives us a reading of where we are emotionally And I and I think uh you know we can we can break these down, but for me, you know, if I’m explaining rational mind, I’m gonna tend to think, and I don’t mean to be stereotypical, but rational mind, I I’m gonna think of IT

Justin:

guy.

Mark:

Just the facts. Just just tell me what I need to know. What does it when you do this, this happens. That’s what I need to know. I don’t need to know that you didn’t get your report in. I don’t need to know all the other thing, all the other issues that were a result of this one thing not working. I just need to know how it doesn’t, you know, when it doesn’t work and what it does when it doesn’t work Does that you follow me?

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And on this other end of the extreme, we might refer to kind of the the the drama queen, if you will. You always, you never, you know, this this and I I probably shouldn’t have done that that with a tone, but you you get that idea that you know there’s these strong emotions that this person is routinely feeling. And there is this sense of it’s always this way. And you you you fall and and that there again that those kind of words are what elicit the reactivity on someone else’s part because while they’re in emotion mind saying you always, you never, you never do this for me, you never come through. You know, the the the rational mind is automatically thinking Uh no, that’s not true. I did this, I did this. So we can already see how the communication breaks down.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So being able to identify that and say, okay, no. In this circumstance, not always, not never, but in this moment I felt And then that’s uh that allows the rational mind to be able to say, okay, that’s what you felt, and we’re not going to try and fix it. We’re gonna allow it.

Justin:

A rational mind says your feeling isn’t valid.

Mark:

Basically

Justin:

the wise mind, that intersection in the middle says, oh that’s what you thought? Now I can

Mark:

Yes. Now I have intuition

Justin:

Right. Now I can use my rational mind to process that.

Mark:

Yes, and it’s okay that you felt that way.

Justin:

I just wanted to clarify, because you said a rational mind will say, oh, you felt that. Uh if we’re using this Venn diagram, if you’re only on that

Mark:

yeah

Justin:

rational side, you would look at it and go, nope, invalid input. I need something different. different.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

That’s not gonna work. What else you got? You know

Mark:

and that and that’s the thing and I and here again I’m not being judgmental, but I think in like our um you know armed services and you know, just community servants like policemen, firemen, so often, you know, it is a rational mind thinking. that is gonna save lives to a certain degree. Because if I’m if if I’m not thinking someone may get hurt. And yet at the same time, we can’t completely live 24 hours a day avoiding all emotion. Because or ignoring all emotion because then we’re not a healthy individual. And that that’s I realize that’s a difficult process for some people. people because they’re rewarded, you know, from their job, from their circumstances by, you know.

Justin:

You’re you’re you’re reinforced in one direction or another. So In the case of a police officer, you’re reinforced in the rational mind and it might become difficult to break out of that mold when you’re at home with a w a wife who’s been home all alone with her kids for a week because you’ve been on night shifts or whatever and and it’s difficult to disengage from that training. Um and I you know I before m we’re all almost out of time I think but I I think about emotional mind and rational mind, I think our natural tendency, especially if you grew up in like a Judeo Christian type of family, is to go, Oh yeah, the rational mind that’s the husband and emotional mind that’s the the the wife or whatever. But I don’t I I think that’s that is not accurate. Like it that’s not it’s not always true. Like I know like one of my struggles, like I said, I’ve had to work through is I’ve had an emotional mind, you know? And um I like to think that I was not a pansy or whatever. I don’t think it means that, right?

Mark:

Right. No, I

Justin:

I think about too, like, you know, going back to our gender episode, we talked about toxic masculinity. A lot of that comes from emotional mind in a man. This anger, this I need to control you, this whatever are coming from an emotional I won’t be you know whatever, so I’m gonna duh huh huh, right? Like and but we don’t think of that we don’t naturally think of them as being an emotional person. But we really should. That’s what’s happening there.

Mark:

That’s what’s underlying.

Justin:

Yeah, yeah.

Mark:

That’s what I’ve learned, how I’ve learned to interact with people. Yes.

Justin:

Right. And vice versa. Like we think of a woman that you know, m mom, wife, whatever being uh emotional and that’s not always true. Sometimes they’re overly rational and they can be cutting and cruel and that some of the things I’ve heard even in recovery, like mom said this to me and it just cut them so deep because it was this completely unemotional and very irrational. And like Women are very capable of having too too much rational mind, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I just thought that was an important kind of follow-up that Man, this can happen across the spectrum.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

And it’s interesting when I when I look at this diagram, for me, I I I guess the the person that comes to mind is Jesus. for me personally. You follow me? Because I believe in uh um the short the shortest the shortest book, I mean the shortest verse in the Bible is in John 11. Okay. Well, if we look at that, that’s a moment when I believe Jesus demonstrated that it’s okay to have empathy. Because in that moment up till then he was he was talking when Lazarus died, his disciples were basically he was misunderstood by his disciples when he was saying, hey, Lazarus is is sick. You follow me? And he’s he’s really dead. But it’s not my time to go there. And yet he go he knows all of that. He was misunderstood by his disciples. Yet he continues in the process But when he gets there, he sees Martha and Mary. And he knows that Lazarus is sick. He knows in about 15 minutes he’s going to raise Lazarus. from the dead. He’s got all this in his mind.

Justin:

And yet.

Mark:

Yes. And yet at that point when he experiences their loss, their grieving, he’s able to go with them into the emotion. and have empathy for them with them and cry over their momentary loss.

Justin:

And Jesus wept.

Mark:

And Jesus wept. And I think for me, that’s that’s that demonstrates wholeness of a person is the ability to know some things. and yet still engage with people at an emotional level to the point of understanding when they’re hurt, we can hurt with them. We can have empathy. for them in that emotion. And I and to me that’s a that’s a wise mind that can basically say, okay, I can go with you into this emotion. and we ‘re gonna be okay.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I don’t have to say, no, cut that out. Stop it. This is what you need to do and we’re gonna fix it.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because that just doesn’t at that point I’m no longer accepting that person at that level. I have to go to that level and say, okay. This is where you’re at. And then from there we can choose a path that seems appropriate from that perspective.

Justin:

Yeah. So you’re saying Jesus is the perfect shade of purple. or red blue Venn diagram. Yeah. So that’s that’s the that’s the goal is to get to that.

Mark:

It’s that that’s the same thing.

Justin:

If you want to know what that color looks like, just look at Jesus and yeah yeah that’s

Mark:

and it and I

Justin:

I love that

Mark:

at times in our at some sometimes in a session I’ll even say to people it’s like um When anger anger is and you fill in the blank. You follow me? I’ll s I’ll use that because that helps me understand what their viewpoint of anger is. anger is. You follow me? Because anger’s anger is an emotion. But so often we grow up with these dynamics that say, well, anger is wrong. Anger is bad. Okay, no, anger is an emotion. Anger has purpose. And I and I think that’s the interesting part for me because when I look at you know scripture and other things, it’s like, yeah. God was angry. Jesus was angry. And yet Ephesians tells us, you know, in your anger do not sin. So we don’t have to be victims or we don’t have to be controlled by anger. but yet we can recognize that when I’m feeling anger, there’s likely something that needs to change. And so I can, I don’t have to be aggressive and I don’t have to be passive. I can learn to be assertive in the midst of that anger. and say, okay, this is what needs to happen from my perspective. I’m not telling you what you need to do, but in this situation, this is what I’m gonna do.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think that’s what that’s what Jesus was as a mom. It’s like you can go that way. But as for me, I’m going this way.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I and and if you want to call me out, I’m happy to address those dynamics in your life if you want to say I’m something, but yet at the same time, it was always about their relationship, their their standing with God, and that misunderstanding.

Justin:

Yeah, because to summarize, emotions are not sin.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

But they could certainly send you in toward sin, right? Like if if it’s just like anything in our life it can become an idol. So fear can become an idol. idol and be placed in front of God and he says get that out of the way.

Mark:

Yes. And I think that for me that’s where balancing the two is so important.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And it’s not it’s not always a a balancing, but yeah being able to recognize that overlapping of the wise mind. it says, okay, in this context, in this moment, what it what is really going on? And being able to stay there in such a way that models that for other people who might value emotion or rationality too highly.

Justin:

Yeah, and be able to connect with both. is so important.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

The overlap. Good.

Justin:

I think this is a good episode.

Mark:

Well I think I think this is what we’ve recorded.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So at that point, whether uh hopefully others enjoy it as well. But it’s been uh it’s been uh It’s been a fast episode.

Justin:

It’s certainly been

Mark:

like most, right? There’s there’s always more.

Justin:

There’s more. There’s more to unpack.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Well we can always do it. Uh

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Uh but

Mark:

either way.

Justin:

It’s very uh very much how we see it.

Mark:

How we see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C L I C K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.