Mark:

Beautiful. Sounds great.

Justin:

The numbers are going up, which is the direction you want them to go.

Mark:

That’s right, and we want them to continue going up. That’s right.

Justin:

Look at us.

Mark:

We are learning.

Justin:

Getting good at this.

Mark:

Well, we’re learning.

Justin:

Then we get some new equipment.

Mark:

There you go. Well then there’s more more to learn, that’s all.

Justin:

Yep. Hey, you know what? That’s what we’re about, Mark.

Mark:

It is.

Justin:

That is what we’re about. That’s why we do this. So keep learning. So let’s do this.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

What are we doing, Mark?

Mark:

Well, you know, I

Justin:

I’m afraid to have you say it.

Mark:

Are you? Yeah, are you are you even just afraid of the word itself?

Justin:

Uh no. No, actually I think I moved on about from that. But man, there are some topics that we avoid for a while because but they are you’ll understand.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Very polarizing. So there’s certainly uh conversations in the zeitgeist that make sense to be had in this context, right?

Mark:

Yeah. Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt

Justin:

and Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural Polarization through thoughtful conversations.

Mark:

And for me, you know, one of those words is transgenderism. You know, and I think part of it, you know, um is a personal I mean, of course, that’s why we do the podcast.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

This is how we see it for or how I see it for a reason as far as that goes. And I think, you know, in this context, um we do this because we desire to offer hope. And so when we cover a topic you know, I believe we want to always bring it back to the aspect of, okay, yes, in this topic, no matter whether it’s You know, as we’ve talked about so many other topics like pride or leadership or, you know, those kind of things, it’s not a desire to single out and say , You’re wrong on that. But it’s a desire to be able to share a perspective that hopefully offers hope Freedom, you know, from circumstances or even from

Justin:

swords.

Mark:

Yeah. From the I guess the I I w uh dogma is too ra too strong, but you know, my the thoughts that keep me captive.

Justin:

The ruts

Mark:

The ruts. Yeah, that’s that’s and I and I think that’s where we’re at. That’s where I’m at, and I want to convey that, you know, right off the bat because I recognize everybody, you know, knows somebody who is, you know, living or struggling with this topic of, you know, homosexuality, you know lesbian lifestyle, you know, transgenderism. And I and I use the word transgenderism um more so I believe just based on the fact that I see, you know, with my clientele, with my and the the cli the people I work with I see more and more confusion in younger kids in the, you know, in the adolescent era And, you know, I I just see that confusion and I recognize how culture feeds into that confusion. And I also recognize, you know, in certain areas to have a conversation like you and I might have could be mislabeled as hate speech in such a way that, you know, got gets someone in trouble, you know, and It’s not a desire to hate anyone, and yet it’s a desire to share how I see it in such a way that hopefully offers hope. And that’s my premise. And I think you la as you alluded to, you know, we, you and I, I think have a um obligation opportunity to be able to talk in such a way that says, okay, this topic can be talked about, transgenderism can be talked about. And

Justin:

it is important to talk about it too. And I think

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I think, you know, when you brought it up as a potential subject, it’s very much like, I don’t know, do we want to touch that?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know? And I and

Mark:

Go ahead.

Justin:

Uh uh again, I’m just gonna reiterate that I think it’s important to not shy away from conversations that are culturally relevant because there is an opportunity to Communicate communicate how to communicate how I see it, right? And so I think too don’t forget what you were gonna say, by the way.

Mark:

No.

Justin:

Um

Mark:

I’m with you. I’m not

Justin:

I was gonna say that something that’s very important for us to recognize and have um you know kind of a understanding of ourselves is that we are two middle-aged white guys and that is the view that we are offering.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Okay We know that. Right? We know that’s true in every episode, right? That there’s a particular viewpoint that that particular status

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Conveys a large part of what we see.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And then we convey what we see. That’s how we see it. Now we like to think that we’re, you know, very enlightened and we can see all sides of the view and we try and do that and that’s the goal of this uh you know podcast. But until we have guests in the room who can offer a perspective that we just don’t have, this is how I see it. Yeah. You know, and I think What’s important about that is not necessarily that you listen to what I s think I see and Mark sees. Although I’m glad you do and I’m I hopefully you find what we think and see valuable. But the idea is to demonstrate how to have these conversations again about you know conversations you know have these conversations about polarizing the subjects right

Mark:

sure um

Justin:

and that they would be done in a thoughtful way.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah. No, and and I and it as far as that goes, um I’m as I think about what you just shared, um as being, you know, 53 white male, that kind of thing. I think about it so much also from remembering back to being an adolescent, to being a teenager. And, you know, for me, and this this is there again, this is how I see it, for me growing up, having um Well, having experienced sexual abuse and therefore, you know, my own um sexual immorality, you know, that became pornography and stuff like that later on. that’s that’s part of what I’m looking back and I’m remembering you know that personal confusion and I think you know when I’m working this is this is my experience when I’m working with oh let’s I I want to actually I’ll bring it back to scripture. I think scripture can be misinterpreted, you know, in some ways because it It’s kind of like, well, did God really say that about this person or this group of people? You know, what he did he really say that about homosexuality? Did he really say that? And I think, you know that’s that’s a that’s a theme throughout scripture kinda and I think it starts in Genesis three where you know Satan comes up to Adam and Eve, you know, and basically said, Well did God really say that? You follow me? And I think when when that happens or when we experience hurt, when we experience, you know difficulty, it it calls the love of God into question. And I think, you know, and that’s what that’s where I’m sharing. Yeah. And that’s where I’m sharing from because when I look at, you know, scripture and I I look at these, you know, if you will, these lists, you know that include homosexuality and I and I want to keep it broader in transgenderism, but

Justin:

sexual immorality and

Mark:

I I and I recognize that in that listing, if you will, it typically starts out with something to the effect of sexual immorality. You know what I’m saying? And and and then it goes on down to, you know men who practice homosexuality and and you know and liars and thieves and that kind of thing. And then it goes on, and I’m thinking especially of like in First Corinthians six. It goes on to say something to the effect of, and so were many of you. You know what I’m saying? To where I think it’s a it’s a part of who we are as a nature, that we have choices, you know, and and I think, you know, we talked about epigenetics last week, which, you know, people But I I think that kind of rolled out. It’s been, it’s been that kind of process for me. And I’ve been able to really recognize how When I’m um working with whether it’s adults or adolescents, I’m hearing of the hurt that goes into this dynamic that tends to view, that tends to skew my view of gender. You follow me? And I I’ll I’m willing to recognize that from my own personal life, you know, that when I, you know Based on what I experienced, I recognized that it it inur i early on it skewed my view of gender. And I’ll say, you know, sexual immorality itself You know, if we’re looking at pornography even, you know, it skews my view. I objectif I tend to objectify women. And unfortunately, that that’s not just a simple thing. It’s a it’s a um ev evolving dynamic because what started out as a simple image, you know, I tend to want more of that. And it skews my view of who I am as a male, you know, and I’ll say created in God’s image, you know, of of um you know, who cr Christ-like masculinity, if I may say so, you know, and it skews my view of Christ-like femininity. You know, and I think when we experience this hurt, you know, and in many ways, and that’s and that’s my personal experience And then as I talk with other people who struggle with transgenderism and lifestyle choices I personally can say I have yet to talk with someone who struggles in that arena who didn’t also experience a level of s perpetrating sexual perpetration, whether it’s abuse, whether it’s you know, experiencing their own personal trauma of some type from a sexual nature That’s that’s my experience. And I’m willing to recognize as I had been perpetrated against. I’m willing to recognize what uh how that affected me and I’m willing to extend that likely affects others. It likely affects other females. It likely affects other males. And you know, even as I If we want to go on the other end of the spectrum to a certain degree, even as I work, you know, and you’ve worked with many males, you know, who are dealing with pornography and sexual addiction and that kind of thing. And I want to recognize that’s part of that skewing. And so I I can recognize how personally when I’m talking with, you know I’ll say a you know, a young male or a young female, if they have been perpetrated against, you know, it really especially by the opposite sex, you know Um, I’m just gonna use a female, for example, if I may, you know, young female, and she’s been perpetrated against a n by adult male. I’m gonna recognize and I’m gonna hear, I’m I hearing from her how, you know, that men are just gross. Men are, you know, the devil, if you will. And And I recognize how that tends to lean or skew that view of gender, you know, based on that human hurt. And that’s the part that hurts me. because I recognize that that was a person who was perpetrated against and you know and then and therefore now There’s a there’s so much wrestling that goes with that, you know, and in our in our um in our world that sees things, you know, so polarizing, you know, we have to be able to say, okay, what do I do with this? Is there something wrong with me? And it you know, and unfortunately that’s where shame goes, is there is something wrong with me. And, you know, it’s not the fact that there’s something, you know, that this person, this other person that perpetrated against me is acting out of the flesh, if you will.

Justin:

Yeah. And it is uncanny how often that happens where, you know, someone is abused sexually in one way or another, whether they’re a child or a woman at a party, right? Or whatever it is. It is uncanny how often that story includes that shame of, Oh, that was my fault. And, you know, depending on the context you hear the story, maybe there’s some admission that no, it’s not, but that you still see that they feel that. You know what I mean?

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

It is uncanny, um, to me that that’s e as someone who has not experienced sexual abuse you would think, Of course it’s not your fault and you know you poor thing and y hopefully by now you’ve realized or whatever and it’s like There’s something deep there that I’ve we both seen and experienced in these stories that it doesn’t come out easily that shame.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And you you and I look at these stories objectively and go, Yeah, but There is no shame there. It was like you said, perpetrated. It was put on you. And and then you were m had to live with that. And that’s not There’s nothing you did there.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

To perpetrate that. Yeah. And yet. Good luck talking them into believing you know.

Mark:

Sure. And I think and I think that’s where, you know, my desire is to share my personal experience. It’s not that I’m talking to someone to try and convert or change them. I just want to recognize that yes, because and here’s here’s the other part for me. I recognized that I was perpetrated against And yet I’m gonna admit that there was a part of me that perpetrated against others, if I’m being really, you know, transparent because I took that hurt and I took it to someone else sometimes. You know, and and I could say, you know, if we want to look at this and this this is one of the aspects of uh how I see it that has really kind of uh changed who I am or the way I think about things because now uh prior prior to how I see it I didn’t always follow the paths or I’ll say the industry, the money, if you will, that can be, you know, beneficial by some of these things that are really hurting people. So if I’m gonna look at, you know, my past, I’m gonna recognize I was perpetrated against, and yet I’m gonna also recognize as I’ve grown I’ve also perpetrated against others. And I’ll and I’ll say that, you know, because, you know, I’ve, you know, had inappropriate relationships, you know. And I also see, you know, pornography as an industry that perpetrates a g against young females. Uh, you know, it’s part of a sex trafficking dynamic. And I can’t, for me personally, I don’t typically say can’t, but it’s very difficult for me not to see this as all interconnected Mm-hmm. Because I I think at times, and this is this is where my desire to offer freedom comes from, I think when we live out of that hurt, you know, it’s counter to you know relationship. And I think, you know, s as we look at scripture as those lists I think all of those things are counter to relationship. And ultimately that’s a matter of the heart. And I think that’s where God’s greatest concern is, is anything that turns our heart away from all that he has to offer. And I and it, you know, as we talk about the epigenetic epigenetics, you know, I have to wrestle with that free will. For me personally to say, okay, yeah, I did choose that behavior. You follow me? So therefore I am accountable and responsible for that. And as I recognize that personally, I have to be able to say, okay, I’m not alone in that. That’s a human dynamic. And so when I can look at that free will, and for me personally, I have to be able to say, okay, so I did choose. So now I have to, you know, make amends and for those that I perpetrated against. And, you know, and I it’s it’s in my benefit to forgive others who have perpetrated against me You know, and so for me, those become free will choices. And and I think for me, that’s that’s that freedom and hope that we can find, whether it’s for through, you know. um sexual immorality, sexual addiction, or, you know, a l a lifestyle and and and coming back to the transgenderism Um, I’m thinking about it in this context of my experience, you know, through growing up and through getting my education. And um As I understand, you know, this um promoting of transgenderism, I do remember uh You remember anorexia? Mm-hmm. You remember how i in some ways it was

Justin:

Bulimia.

Mark:

And bulimia. It was um It was a pretty big deal when I was getting my education early on. We don’t hear that much about it anymore. And um, it’s not that it doesn’t exist. But I can remember early on and learning that the idea of anorexia, they started treating it in groups Because what they recognized was it was a body, well, body dysmorphia or body image type thing. to where when when that person saw themselves in the mirror, we would look at them and see a healthy or possibly even thinner person. But the way they viewed their image was was different. And they viewed it that healthy, thinner body as still being fat obese. You follow me? And I want to recognize that as you know we’ve researched this transgenderism type dynamic that same body image is what drives or promotes it. And it and in in a lot of cases it still has to do with that Perception that I’m different. I can’t connect with people. You know, I have this inability to relate to this gender, these individuals. I don’t relate well You follow me? Based on this thing that is wrong with me, you know, from my perspective. And unfortunately, and I’ll I’ll this is this is uh this is heavy on my heart, unfortunately the church hasn’t done a good job. of connecting with individuals and you know and I’ll even you know as I work with adolescents you know, I’m hearing, you know, well it’s the kids in church that are meaner to me than than my bi friends or my you know transgender friends because they accept me for who I am. You know, and that hurts my heart, you know, as a as a follower to be able to say, okay, yeah, how can we have these conversations? in a way that says, okay, yeah, I’m accepting. I will I want to accept all of who you are. And it’s my desire to do that in a way that offers, you know, freedom and hope. And we can talk and and we can be friends and I’m also willing to accept you as a person and still recognize that yeah, there’s reasons why we make the choices we make. And when we understand that, your choices make perfect sense.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But not all of our choices are always healthy.

Justin:

Yeah. I mm yeah. Inject a little bit here. Go right ahead.

Mark:

Sorry to

Justin:

No, you’re good. Um yeah, I love what I love what you’re having to say and I I agree. I think um to that point about just kind of how culturally there’s a a a a problem with acceptance, right? Um From quote unquote the good people.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Yeah, yeah. Quote unquote. I like that. Yes.

Justin:

Um and yet If you think about it, if if you’re someone who’s taken the path of, you know, LGBTQ, what one of those versions and you’re now on the other side, what you want from people around you is acceptance for your choice. And so therefore what you’re naturally going to be better at than most is giving acceptance for other people’s choices. Right. And so it doesn’t blow my mind, right, to find out that sometimes or many times kids can find Safety in the net of a group of friends, LGBTQ friends, sure who are there to accept each other and love each other.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And like you said, it is painful. to see and admit that that it’s more likely that a kid is going to find love and acceptance in a group of LB LGBTQ friends than at youth group.

Mark:

Yes. It does.

Justin:

And I’ve heard Many stories of how kids left youth group feeling ostracized.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Abused.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Um, you know, made fun of just all kinds of bad things.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I think one thing that we you know, one of those polar sides Does kind of maybe the church world, the church world that hasn’t quite given into having these conversations and understanding how it’s possible. They simply go, It’s not possible, therefore it’s ridiculous kind of thing. But I think it’s important to hear hear the stories, listen, st get in on the conversations, understand what’s happening. Because it could be that I’m the parent. of a child who, you know, talks in certain ways about LGBTQ community in a very judgmental way. And my kid learns that and they understand that that community is meant to um You’re meant to be disgusted at them. You are meant to uh consider yourself much, much, much better than them because you don’t have that problem. You’re meant, you know, this is what’s modeled maybe to my kid. How am I ex supposed to expect my kid to provide a loving and accepting atmosphere to those kids? Well, in a lot of cases the parents we say, Don’t do that. I don’t want you to have fri be friends with them. I don’t want you to accept them. I don’t want you to be in any close vicinity from them because you you know, it might be contagious. You know, or whatever. Like there’s this fear factor that kind of goes into it. And of course I don’t think that’s true of every family. Um you know, but I think that is certainly something that is happening and you can see it. And like I said, it’s it’s not surprising when you see someone with trauma uh combined with addiction, right? Who’s desperately seeking acceptance and a release from some of the shame.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

To find Some safe havens, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And again, it’s not surprising to me that that becomes a safe haven f in a group of people who say, I don’t want to look at your problems. I wanna look at I want to celebrate who you are. You know? I mean, how refreshing would that be?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And also as you were talking about um trauma, right? Trauma is one of the biggest uh things in our life that can kind of transform us.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

No doubt.

Justin:

And another one is addiction.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um, you think about, you know, just all the stories of addiction we’ve heard and how it can change someone, right? It’s like sure you I mean, everyone listening can think of someone that you know they’re not who they used to be. they transformed due to an addiction and um thinking about sexual addiction again um you know I have a lot of familiar with that familiarity with that concept. That’s also something I struggled with, pornography, the whole thing and Um like you said, uh, you know, I’ve worked through that, through celebrate covering, through the the work that I’ve done, and therefore on the other side I’m able to do a lot of twelve-step work, working with other people and just learning about how that same problem, you know, exists in so many different forms.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I’m just mostly looking, you know, having or I shouldn’t say mostly exclusively talking to males

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right about this issue and seeing how vast the struggle can be there.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um, and I recognize, like every addiction, Like you said, it starts with a single image.

Mark:

Sure. It can.

Justin:

I recognize with every addiction that it continues to grow in its need, in its hunger, right? Sure. That’s that’s the nature of addiction. That’s that is probably the single defining characteristic of what we would call addiction is something that doesn’t get solved with the next usage.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

It needs more, it needs bigger, it needs better, you know? Sure. And as you said, that image is not enough next time. Now you need it to move. Now you need it to you know, you need it to continue to get stronger in order to give you the same high.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

That’s how that’s how that’s the diminishing returns of addiction. And so You combine something as traumatic as trauma in your life.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

That transforms your mind, gives you that seat of shame And then you add something as transforming as addiction that says, I need more, I need more, I need more. I mean, it’s to me it’s not surprising that you would continue to explore beyond your gender, beyond, you know, whatever and And again, the pornograph pornographic industry benefits from that addiction and they perpetrate it. They say, Well, we know, you know, the next step is this, so we’re gonna start you know, producing this and we know what the next step is this, so we’re gonna produce this. Um I say all that to say the jump is not that high

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, for for for many people.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And so if you’re already st starting at a deficit of some abuse

Mark:

sure

Justin:

early or m you know at any point and you also struggle with an addiction or you struggle Again, it’s not that big of a leap to get to a place where you you need an escape.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I do think that’s one thing that I see offered in that lifestyle.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And that doesn’t mean an escape from pain or struggle or whatever and in fact if you were to say that to someone who’s chosen that lifestyle they I I would they likely would be angry at the concept that you’re saying they chose a path Yeah. To ease their pain because they say, no, you don’t understand the pain that it requires just to live my life.

Mark:

Agreed.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And yet there is something there. There’s an acceptance. There’s a pathway that feels safer than the pathway we’re on, you know?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I think I say all these things because I want there to be some empathy.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And that’s not the same thing as acceptance or in uh in this case we want acceptance, you know. But that’s not the same thing to s as to say, like, I agree with That choice.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But you should be able to get to a place where you can say, I understand that choice, and I guess I can’t say I blame you. Yeah. I can’t even say if I was in the same position and went through the same things, I wouldn’t make that choice.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

We need to be able to get there.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

And I think there’s a problem right now. specifically in the church where we’re not willing to go there.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? Because it’s scary, because it’s that bad. It’s whatever. It’s like, no If we want to have those relationships, if we want to be able to offer that same level of acceptance in those circles, we have to be able to go there. We have to be able to understand. That’s what empathy is all about.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? And we’ve talked about open mindedness before and like don’t let your brain gets open minded, your brains fall out, or whatever.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Like, that’s not what we’re saying.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

That’s not what I’m saying.

Mark:

No, I hear you.

Justin:

You know, I’m saying be be willing to go there so that you can understand how someone gets to where they get. And therefore, that will naturally loosen some of the grit of judgment in your in your heart and your mind.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Your thoughts.

Mark:

No, it’s exactly. And I and I think about it in this uh I guess I think about it sometimes in a in a aspect of false intimacy when I think of, you know, sexual immorality, because I think there is a false acceptance that pornography offers, you know, to you know, to men. as they’re you know being you know as that view is being skewed it’s like this image offers me acceptance but yet there’s no reality to it

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, if I met that actual physical person in life, they would see all my flaws the same way that, you know, other people do. And there wouldn’t that that acceptance wouldn’t be there. That unconditional acceptance wouldn’t be there. And I think, you know That also, you know, goes to the other side of the spectrum, if you will, where you know it’s it’s between same gender dynamics. And I think there is a that like you shared, there is that acceptance that’s offered there and it I would dare say it’s more real of course because that’s another person than just an image, you know, that kind of thing. And I think but I for me that’s what ties the whole thing together, you know, between the, you know, LGBT com key community and and, you know, and this this far. Because I believe it is a spectrum. And it and it and its view and what it does is it it skews our view of the purpose of gender. in such a way that it it makes it to where, yeah, that doesn’t really matter. And yet we’d recognize in some cases it does matter. And I think, you know, that’s where, you know, that acceptance of the individual. And I would say, you know, regardless of what, you know, the issue becomes, that’s what that’s what we’re looking for. like you shared is that acceptance. And for me, a part of the issue is because, you know, my concern And here’s how I see it from a spiritual standpoint. My concern are women and children. Okay, because at the heart of what we’re talking about from my perspective are kids who are living in confusion. And, you know, and they’re taught you know, it’s not the fact that they’re talking about being bi or trans or you know, those kind of things. I don’t I don’t have any issues with kids talking about that because I want to recognize in some ways that’s a there is a help healthiness to having this conversation over gender. And yet I also recognize there there is a promotion of, you know, this industry and you know, as far as recognizing there is a industry that’s also tied to transgenderism.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And you know, we can put a link in. There’s a article I read, you know, um uh transgender Leviathan and it goes back to you know how early on and and I I don’t I don’t think we’re here by mistake I think, you know, so much of what we experience today are based on choices that were made 30 years ago. You follow me? I think, you know, we’re we’re thinking this is something new. Um we’ve been, you know, societies have been here before. You follow me. And and to that degree, I think, you know, I was reading it early on, like um, and it comes back to that choice dynamic to a certain degree, free will. Um uh uh ground zero was a kid who’s um trying to think of the operation where you what’s what do what do you uh circumcision there you go um circumcision went bad And they basically said, well, we can just re make his, you know, anatomy, if you will, and turn that individual into a girl. And they had a twin and and it just you follow me? And it just it just went bad from bad to worse based on this fact that you know, we can just change someone. You know, we can uh avoid this this wiring, if you will. and just change the outside and the inside will follow. And it it just it just went bad. And, you know, th there was the individual I think his brother even ended up committing suicide. You know, it was just a tough thing and the you know and the therapist that was dealing with him had him, you know. Um inappropriate relationship. I’m just trying to keep it, you know, on the on the PG thirteen rating here. But you know, inappropriate relationships even between these siblings to, you know firm up this this image of what gender you know and we can make this happen. And it just went bad. And it and you know, in that process and then for me, my concern with the industry Is like you were saying, I want more, I want more, I want more. And what the industry does in that way is if I’m not If there’s something wrong with me, then I have my body parts changed. You follow me? And that in and of itself is an expense. But yeah a and this is this is a part of how I see it that’s transformed me. You know, I’m looking at the industry dynamic And I don’t like it because what happens is, you know, it’s not just adults that are being able to make this choice, if you will. Now it’s affecting children and kids and you know, and we have this this issue in our culture where, you know, one parent is basically saying, Hey, you know, Joey or or or Joni or, you know, needs to change. They want to change and they’re you know, 10, 12 years old.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

So we’re talking about, you know, giving them hormone suppressing, you know, medication. And And from my perspective, that’s that’s counter to that individual’s opportunity to choose, if you will. based on where they’re at in life. And that’s how I’m looking at it as a fifty year old. If I had made if I had been able to make so many choices, adult choices, at the age of, you know, ten, twelve, You know, I would have I’d been a completely different person, you know, and then so I think of it from that perspective. Go ahead, go ahead.

Justin:

Oh, I was just gonna say like you if your twelve year old said I want a tattoo of a stegosaurus on my

Mark:

sure

Justin:

bicep. You’d probably be like, mm-hmm. Wait till you’re eighteen. You can go get that tattoo of a stegosaurus or whatever. You know you kinda understand that they’re they’re not of the the age that it makes sense to make life altering choices, right?

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And Y you might know this better than me. I don’t know that that particular issue of parents forcing the matter is like the the biggest issue right now, I think that is starting to happen, right? Like I think there’s um

Mark:

I agree.

Justin:

And And I say that just because I don’t want to make it sound like this is happening all over the place. What I think is happening is that indust like you said, there’s an industry that’s growing here. I don’t think either of us have the desire to say you’re being duped by this industry, but I also think we do have a desire to say just like pornography, just like um Weight Watchers, just like whatever. There are industries that benefit from our dysfunctions.

Mark:

Yes. Right?

Justin:

And to not be aware of that and to kind of just take their word like, you know, this is good for you or whatever. Uh there are many aspects of this industry that it’s in their best interest to say this is good for you and you need to pursue this.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Right? Yes. And then It becomes culturally you know under understood. Like yeah, I heard heard on a commercial this is good for you. So I’m I’m with that, right? I agree this is good for you. And it becomes you know, perpetrated culturally and I think that’s what we’re seeing, right? We’re s we’re seeing a natural um acceptance and not just acceptance but almost like a pushing of, hey, maybe this is a choice that would benefit you. You know and Um, I think it’s just so important to understand the the gears at work, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And so that you can at least be aware of that uh as as these considerations are happening or whatever. Um And also like I said, there are industries, billion dollar industries in just about every area where we’re discontent with who we are.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

There’s liposuction, there’s plastic surgery, there’s Whatever, right? You know, and I’m I’m not I’m not I’m talking about cosmetic things or you know whatever, not necessarily um obviously like vision.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, y there’s a a practical benefit to having better vi vision. It’s usually not uh due to cosmetics, but that happens too, right? Sure. I don’t like what I look like in glasses, but uh the point is If there is a place where an industry can recognize, hey, humans aren’t happy with themselves this way, there will be an industry borne up to solve that.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I think again, it’s so important to understand that. um and also to understand that these industries then become culturally relevant and not that um it it starts seeping into culture.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So it’s no longer just the industry pushing it. And I think it’s important to say it’s not like this this huge conspiracy where this industry is, you know, basically puppeting all these people. No, I think it’s it’s reached a tipping point.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

To where it’s now into some c and then not just from the industry. I also think there’s Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. And I and I think that’s that’s where my passion comes from for this topic. is, you know, I’m talking with, you know, young kids and and they’re planning on when I get, you know, they’re, you know sixteen, thirteen, you know, but when I get to be an adult, you know, I want to be able to have parts of my body removed so I don’t look so male, so I don’t look so female. You know, that kind of thing. And, you know, and we think about it, and I think about it from that aspect of, okay, you know That’s a that’s a major deal. That’s a major expense to have that happen, to do that, and that’s just the beginning. And I’m and here again, I’m in agreement with you that this um we’re not saying you know people are duped, but when I’m looking at these adolescents and where their focus is shifting to, you know Kind of kind of like you know the the the American nightmare, if you will. You know, that I’m not it’s not the American dream anymore, you know, in some ways, because there’s this sense that it’s unattainable And yet I’m also listening to these kids and young adults and they’re saying, okay, instead of desiring to, you know have the white pick the house and the white picket fence. My desire is to have a surgery to change my body. And you know, for me, that becomes a concern. Because, you know, it’s like, where’s that coming from? And I understand where it’s coming from. And yet at the same time, that’s just the beginning if we’re looking at an industry. And you know, that it it it all it doesn’t even count bring into effect the medications that will be for that person for a lifetime, the pharmaceutics involved. And you know, and that and that’s where I guess, you know, I’m I’m not trying to go so far, but I’m I’m thinking about how that changes a culture, you know, when that’s that’s really what my desire is And it’s based on this inability to find acceptance for who I am, the way I am. Mm-hmm. And being able to recognize, okay, yeah, it may not be comfortable right now to be who you are, but yet There’s a purpose. There’s a, you know, there’s a reason why, you know, we’re created the way we are And we may not always understand it, and we especially don’t understand it in the light of hurt or or or you know trauma, that kind of thing. And yet From my perspective, we can trust the plan. You follow me? And and there is there is hope. There is still, you know, as as long as we’re alive, there’s still hope. You know, and and that’s I guess that’s where I’m coming from. And I don’t wanna like you were saying, I don’t wanna make it that, you know The industry drives this because I recognize, like you’re saying, it it where there is a hurt, where there is a habit, a hang up, there will be an industry to promote that. And that’s and that’s sad to me. You know.

Justin:

It’s it is sad, but it’s also the way of the earth, right? Like it’s kind of

Mark:

yeah. But it doesn’t mean that I have to Avoid it, ignore it based on what it is. You know, just because it’s the way of the earth, that doesn’t mean that we can’t do something about it.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

That’s and that’s and that’s where I’m at, you know, and and that for me that is about, you know, having the conversations and and being able to recognize that there’s a, you know tremendous amount of hurt, you know, that goes along with this topic and to to add hurt to the hurt Is irresponsible from my perspective.

Justin:

Agreed. Perfect word for it. I mean I would even go so far as in some cases abusive, right? To per to perpetrate that. Yeah, that sounds like a good approach. We’ll plan for that or whatever. I mean, I think in some cases ab it’s abusive in in the sense that that child You’re giving them the credit of an ad you know, adult decision.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. It’s kind of like the tattoo thing, but just way, way, way work. Right. Because it’s it’s a it’s a life-altering decision that’s not just a physical thing and a part of the body that uh you know is a visual thing like a tattoo. I mean it is a identity thing, right? Yeah, um

Mark:

I could tell. You get you back on track.

Justin:

No, I lost.

Mark:

Okay. Well

Justin:

I have some other thoughts, but I yeah.

Mark:

And I guess where my thoughts go, and this is this is where um I want to come back to is I believe, as I shared at the beginning, you know, everybody knows somebody who’s affected by LGBTQ type dynamics, transgenderism, you know. And I and I think that’s the part that makes these topics so difficult. If I never knew anyone, you know then I could it’s it’s it’s like law, you know, because law can be, you know, given out or, you know m laid out in such a way that avoids the personal aspect. In other words, Allah is fine with me as long as it doesn’t affect me personally. And I think this topic is the same way. So we have to be, I believe we have to be able to deal with these issues in a case-by-case, person-by-person type dynamic. And you know, and I and I think that’s where the discussions come into play, having the difficult conversations with even people that I know in such a way that says, okay, tell me about your story. Talk with me and and what did you experience? And I’m uh personally for myself, I’m fine if someone wanted to share their story with me that basically said, hey, you know what? I struggle with gender identity and from my perspective I never experienced sexual trauma. You know, I would I would love to have that conversation, you know, to be, but unfortunately, I think, you know, as you talked about it, you know, so often we come at it from You don’t know me. You don’t well, no, you’re right. I don’t. But tell me about you. You know what I’m saying? I’m willing to have that conversation because I think At times, like all of us, wherever that shame is in our lives, it continues to perpetrate against us. Well do you had something you wanted to share?

Justin:

Yeah, a couple of things. Uh I th I think again, just to reiterate what you’re saying, we want to have those conversations because we want to get to know you. Now neither of us are saying we want to have those conversations because we think, you know, that we wanna give you an opportunity to convince us otherwise. That’s not what this is about. Sure. And I think that’s I think it’s so important to understand that that’s what all of how I see it is about. It’s not about trying to convince you or me. And I don’t want you to come try and convince me. And I don’t want to convince you. I want to have the conversation. I want to gain more insight into the a perspective I can’t understand fully. Sure. You know? Um so I think you and I would agree uh on that concept. Like we want to hear your story if it doesn’t match what again our our

Mark:

perspective.

Justin:

Perspective is sure. So that we can grow our perspective, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But as you were talking about, um what makes the conversation difficult is that we have someone in our mind, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But I also think that’s what makes it so important.

Mark:

Agreed.

Justin:

And that’s a that’s what makes it important that we c we’re able to have the conversation. And also is what makes it important to have empathy.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Because if you don’t have that person in your mind, then the words that can come out of your mouth look a lot worse or can, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And um it reminded me of this uh anecdote in the book uh atomic habits.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um where he’s talking about kind of the value of accountability.

Mark:

Okay. Um

Justin:

And basically it says anecdote about this guy who’s trying to help the government figure out how to implement proper safety measures for firing off nuclear bombs, okay. And uh he says this. I’m just gonna read a little segment of it.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

My suggestion was quite simple. he wrote in nineteen eighty one, put that nuclear code number in a little capsule and then implant that capsule right next to the heart of a volunteer. The volunteer would carry with him a big, heavy butcher knife as he accompanied the president. If ever the president wanted to fire nuclear weapons, the only way he could do so would be for him first, with his own hands, to kill one human being. The president says, George, I’m sorry, but tens of millions must die. He has to look at someone and realize what death is, what an innocent death is. Blood on the White House carpus. carpet. It’s reality brought home. He said when I suggested this to friends in the Pentagon, they said, My God, that’s terrible. Having to kill someone would distort the president’s judgment. He might never push the button. And it made me think of that when you were talking about having that s person in your head. You know what? Having that person in your head can allow you to have the empathy to go, you know what, this is a living person, living breathing person that I’m disparaging or teaching my kids to disparage And if they were in this room as I had this conversation with my kid, maybe that would push them towards death, towards you know what I mean? Like you know what I’m saying? Yeah. I think the w the power of our words and the power of our attitudes towards the subject. can sway culture. You know, especially when I consider what we believe the power of his kingdom is in this planet, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um, we have we have a a tremendous opportunity and responsibility. to reframe the conversation.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

To take back this conversation of gender in a way that is accepting and a loving and embracing.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? So that no longer are we sh shoving them full force into the arms of an accepting culture, saying we don’t accept you. Good luck over there. Sure. But instead we’re tur turning the conversation to where we’re having those accepting conversations. We’re being the loving culture It’s not weird to have a transgender friend if you, you know, go to youth group or whatever. Like that’s the norm. That’s what needs to happen.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Agreed. Yeah. To where that acceptance is there based on who an individual is. You know, and and I think that’s that’s where it comes back to because I think, you know There is an aspect where we accept other people for certain things, but not other things. You follow me? And and that’s where, you know, and granted, we’re not God in the aspect of, you know, offering unconditional acceptance. But yet if we want to be Christ-like, there is an aspect where I like anything, I accept you, but yet we’re gonna deal with some of these issues and topics. that seem to create a lifestyle that is unhealthy for you. And I’m I’m saying that across the board. You know, that it it uh it a you know if there’s an impact that creates um unhealthy relationship, you know, and granted, you know, there would be those that might argue what is healthy relationship versus unhealthy. But I’m willing to recognize, you know, if it’s if it’s counter to what I would say is our design, that’s that’s where we’re gonna, you know, have these conversations. You know, and so much of that can come back to the gender dynamic, but it can also, you know, deal with my addictions and those kind of things. And I and I think that’s the that’s a part of it because I just see you know, even in as we look at the industries, the industries are driven by it’s not just this, you know, it’s not just the image. It’s not just Okay, I may want surgery, you know, it it it’s gonna grow. I’m gonna have to I’m gonna want more. I’m gonna want different, more different. And, you know, and that’s the consuming part. And that’s where I want to offer hope at this point. And I think, you know, so often it’s a matter of In our inability to have conversations, it’s like, yeah, you can, it’s I look at shame like a door, okay? If I’m on the if I’m on the, you know, I’ll say the outside of the door, the other side of the door looks very appealing. But when I walk through the door, I get on the other side, it’s like, what are you here for? You follow me? That was dumb. That was stupid. And it adds to that shame that I feel that was enticing me when I was in the other side of the door. And that creates that that shame cycle, if you will. And I think, you know, part of what we

Justin:

And once you walk through the door it’s often difficult and feels yeah very difficult to walk back through it.

Mark:

That’s right. That’s right. And so therefore you’re caught in that cycle.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

That okay, once I get to the other side of the door, the acceptance that I thought was here really isn’t here. And yet I get caught in that dynamic that says, okay, well, I’m still looking for acceptance. And the door is saying, well, come here, come here, come here. I get to the other side. That acceptance isn’t there. Now I have to look for the door again that gives me more acceptance. You follow me. And that and that

Justin:

‘s good. That’s a good I’m thankful for that perspective or you bringing that in because I personally talked a lot about that acceptance, you know, of that culture, but I also think there’s a pretty conditional acceptance there.

Mark:

Yes. Right? Yes.

Justin:

Continue walking this direction and acceptance continues. But if you walk a different direction, I think the same thing. kind of condemnation can come, you know.

Mark:

Sure. Um

Justin:

and it yeah, because that’s it’s human nature. It’s not not something specific about the LGBT community. that would be that way. I w it’s that every community can that can be that way. As long as you look like us and w you know, act like us, well there’s some acceptance. But if you start, you know, not,

Mark:

you

Justin:

start rejecting, you know. And again, that’s a big part of why the Christian community is that’s the Christian community is a human community

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And therefore we do a lot of the stupid human things.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know. But we have a reputation up to uphold, so it looks a lot worse when we don’t do the thing we’re supposed to do and you know, we end up rejecting or whatever. But Um, it has a lot to do with that homogenous nature and once once you don’t match what what we expect a Christian sure youth to look like, you know, then then you’re out. You know, you’re rejected and Again, I think it goes. Not just youth.

Mark:

Like you say, that goes into adulthood.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I want to, you know, as as you were sharing, you know, that that perspective. You know, it kind of comes back to where I was initially, it’s it’s that it’s the way I view myself. It’s that body image.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, that Okay, there’s something wrong with me. And I think that’s that’s the power of and I think that’s what they, you know, like when I’m speaking about anorexia, but I think that’s the power of a group dynamic. is I’m able to say, okay, I can see you and you look healthy to me But yet you’re sh… you’re saying the same things I’m saying about myself being unhealthy. And that creates a healthy dissonance to be able to say, okay. If I’m looking at you and I’m hearing the same things from you that I’m saying, maybe what I’m saying isn’t necessarily accurate. Just like I’m seeing you and seeing you as healthy, you know, healthy looking. That offers me hope.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That, you know, okay, that that there is there is an option to the door and I can go back through the door. in such a way and I don’t have to continue, you know, walking through that door in the same direction over and over again going further and further away from, you know, towards that non-conditional acceptance.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, and

Mark:

Go ahead.

Justin:

Culturally it was we were all in agreement that anorexia was bad and therefore we You know, I like you said it’s it’s better than it used to be and I do think there’s been a lot of efforts towards figuring that out.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But I also think there has been a misplu you know, a misdirection of those struggles. Right, is kind of what you were hitting at in the beginning is that some of those struggles have moved into struggles with gender identity, potentially. Of course we can’t know that, but it’s it feels like where cultural culturally there was a lot going on, you know, in terms of anorexia yeah, bulimia, it’s less so now and a lot more gender confusion and solving identity woes that way and sa some of the same dysmorphia of like you may see a beautiful woman, I see an ugly woman and I wanna see less of that, you know.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Whether it’s looking obese or looking too male or whatever, whatever that I don’t yeah, whatever that is. Um I think The s the s really important thing to understand is that, um, we don’t solve it that easy.

Mark:

No.

Justin:

Right? You don’t just flip a switch and now I look skinny and you don’t flip a switch and now I don’t look like the gender I hate. or whatever, um, there’s still some internal struggles that will continue to go on and what benefits us the most is if we can learn to work through those.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

what really, really, really needs to happen is tools need to be learned for dealing with that struggle of non acceptance of self. Sure. You know, and being able to understand that I’m okay exactly how I am.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know? And I think that’s the identity struggle with wanting to change uh you know, gender or, you know, all of that is just like I’m not happy with who I am. There’s not gonna be some Eureka moment of acceptance of who you are on the other side of that door.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Most likely.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Sure. No, and I and I think at times we desire something that will fix it.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

And that’s

Justin:

And it’s promised to us. I mean culturally Th that is the problem is that you’re just through you were born the wrong gender. You just need switch. And this will solve it. And there’s a big promise.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

In the community, in the industries, et cetera, that say this is likely the problem.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

In I mean, I just don’t believe that’s true. I mean I d I

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. I think yeah.

Mark:

And so often I think, you know, we can it What makes it polarizing is if I’m wrong, if I’m on one end, and and you know, it’s it’s that ability to say, okay, because it there’s a irony. you know, in I think in both ways because if let’s just say there I wanna recognize the LGBT community And I recognize that, you know, what I do, you know, if I’m talking with someone about alternatives, especially in, you know, other areas like Canada or something, that might be labeled hate speech. And so therefore, you know, if I’m on one end of the spectrum, I don’t want you getting counseling.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, I want you to come my way. But if you want to leave I want you getting counseling because you need to know what you’re gonna do if you leave one side or the other. And that’s that’s from my perspective. That’s where we have to be able to have these conversations because it just basically promotes that polar dynamic in such a way that says, okay, how do we have these discussions?

Justin:

Yeah, and I mean it’s a r it’s a big bummer how the conversations have kind of gone. Like you said, in terms of We’re all for yeah. Culturally it is okay to get uh therapy in hopes of converting from who you are in and getting therapy and getting, you know, help. But going the other direction is very yes.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Very polarized in the sense that, you know, the word conversion therapy is illegal in many places and it is And yet there should be the ability and option to say, you know what? I got a tattoo and I think I made a bad choice and I want it removed.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Like are we saying that that shouldn’t happen? There shouldn’t be an opportunity for that. Now, obviously Yeah. I don’t know all of the stories of conversion therapy and I’m sure there’s terrible things that happen that direction. And I also know enough about the church to know that we say and do some stupid things, so there’s certainly Yeah, versions of that that are probably nefarious and evil. Downright evil. I’m not I’m not arguing that that’s not the case, but to be able to say going one direction is perfectly okay, but going the other direction is not is w where the problem is.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Right? Because if you’re saying someone could change their mind about who they think they are, one direction You have to allow that same change. You have to allow that that can happen, right? Like that someone could say, you know what? I don’t think I’m this. Or you know what, I think I made a mistake. I made a choice when my brain wasn’t fully developed, if you know if that happened as a child or sure you know I tried it. It didn’t solve what I thought it would solve. And I wanna go back. You know, like to say that’s not that shouldn’t happen is I mean, it’s like there’s no room for that conversation. It becomes hate speech. It becomes Very polarized, and that’s disappointing, but also not really surprising in terms of industry, right?

Mark:

Sure. No, no doubt there. Go ahead.

Justin:

Uh we are getting close on our time, so I was just gonna say some stuff about that, but I also don’t want to I’m really enjoying your thoughts on this, Marks. I I also don’t wanna

Mark:

No, I’m um I think at this point, you know, I’ve said what I you know, it’s and uh I just I just appreciate the opportunity. I appreciate the people that listen to us. I appreciate, you know this opportunity. I g I c it’s it’s funny ’cause uh, you know, there’s different topics and and I can honestly say, you know, this one has uh had a had a impact on me and you know and that’s where I’m happy to not happy to but definitely willing to, you know, talk about it, but it’s it’s it’s uh I can honestly say this is one of the first times I’ve ever felt my my hands just kinda wanting to move in the process because it’s uh Yeah, it is so personal and it is so polarizing and I feel, you know, a strong passion about it, you know, to offer acceptance for people and meeting them where they’re at. And yeah, just

Justin:

As we’ve been talking about the subject, my brain’s been worrying about how do we label this episode?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Because also recognize I don’t want to get too I don’t I’m not a huge conspiracy theorist, but there is a part of me that’s concerned that it could get flagged and uh thrown out of the platforms or whatever and I don’t know, it’s just been it it is one of those topics. We did it, Mark. We hit a polarizing topic. So congratulations. I know we don’t mean to make light about this subject, but at the same time I think there’s room for a little light in this conversation. I think it’s okay to to laugh a little bit about it. Um, you know, not just this conversation, but all conversations that are a little bit polarizing. Um

Mark:

and and I ‘ve over

Justin:

humor.

Mark:

And I think that’s where where the the levity comes from is the ability to have the conversation. And say, okay, yeah, we had this conversation. We may you and I, you know, we may agree and yet there are others that d that may not. And it’s like, okay.

Justin:

And that’s okay.

Mark:

And that is okay. Yeah. Yeah. So we laugh at the the ability to have hard conversations and find them, come to it in this dynamic, a conclusion.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And understanding one another and knowing one another better because of it.

Justin:

Yep. Well thank you all for listening and uh

Mark:

That’s how we see it.

Justin:

That’s how we see it Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C-L-I-C-K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.