0:04
hello and welcome again to how I see it for today's subject we actually began the conversation before we had started

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recording um I don't think we planned on recording and we realized once we got going hey we should hit record so um

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started recording Midway through the beginning of the conversation and I think you'll be able to catch on pretty quickly

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welcome to how I see it with me Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a

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podcast that works to countercultural polarization through thoughtful

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[Music] conversations you know what I mean to talk with that person personally and I

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think at times the Leadership Model tends to as as a as a entity grows

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the leadership tends to be more and more isolated because we want to say well

1:08
they only have time for this kind of thing the 8020 principle so they can't be bothered you know with the the the

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person purchasing their product or the the Layman if you will because there's

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this hierarchy that automatically tends to insulate them and that's that's where it

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kind of came from is this process of what does good leadership look

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like and I and I was I'll be the first to admit I don't think that I'm a great

1:40
leader by any means you know what I mean in a sense of what I see leadership as I

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would see myself as more of a teacher you know um probably I mean in the if if

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uh in the leadership world if there were dogs to demonstrate

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leadership you know I'm more of a golden retriever I just like going along with

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people and you know and it's like I'm I'm I'm gonna I'm independent

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I'm able to do my you you have me as a Davey Crockett or something I'm still trying to figure that but yeah I think

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that's part of who I am it's like if you want to go along with me you know I'll

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show you what I do but you can do your own thing and I and I and I leaders as I

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see leaders I was thinking about it I see them more like border

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Coles you ever you ever there are like hurting dogs the sheep dogs the sheep

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dogs it was funny because uh as a kid I can remember my grandparents had one and

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if we couldn't ever find that dog we knew where it was especially in

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like July cuz it would be down around the pond you know the the the Farm Pond

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like hurting the dragonflies you know I mean it would just spend out you know and that's how I

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see a leader you know it's somebody who just has this inate innate desire to

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lead so that's what they find themselves doing in a variety of areas you follow me and I

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don't think it's I don't think it's I think it's more inate it's part of their design their gifting and they just

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gravitate towards that so that that's kind of my my nutshell where do you

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where do you see your how do you see yourself in this leadership it's funny because I started

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recording halfway through that it'll be interesting to figure out where to start that

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out maybe where do you see U yeah so many thoughts um go with

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it I think the idea of the dragonfly thing you know the and that's mine I'm not saying it's accurate No I know I get

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it yeah I think that is accurate I think the problem with that is to say if they

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if that innate thing exists then they must be a leader

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because I mean when we first talked about doing an episode like this it like I put true leadership in front of it

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because I think there's a difference between what is typically known as

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leadership or defined as leadership and what how I see it what is true

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leadership and so someone who can you know round up the the Sheep yeah um you

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know is I guess a leader but I'm not sure it's you know it's not always going

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to be the kind of leader that I think uh that I would want to follow sure you

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know like you get nipped in the bud you know I was like I don't know if I like this dog you know yeah yeah um that

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and again I'm not that's not even necessarily a bad thing sometimes leaders will nip you in the bud and

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that's part of it um but I I think it's it's nuanced and I

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think you know just thinking about that idea of I don't know I I

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think I think I've had a desire or tendency to want to

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lead and for much of my life they shouldn't I should not have led um and

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I'm not I'm not even saying I should now I'm just saying like the desire to lead is often can often come from a self-

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ambitious place or a place of self-importance or a place

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of um critique or whatever and those aren't always the right

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places to come from as a leader you know what I mean sure so you're saying there's a difference

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between seeking leadership from a almost a

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self-esteem perspective and Leadership opportunity

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that is provided in other words opportunities that come your way versus

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seeking the opportunity out is that is that what I'm me I definitely think there's a difference I'm not saying

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seeking opportunities is wrong either I'm just saying that self ambition is essentially

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an an antithesis to what I consider true and good leadership Define what you

6:42
would call true and good leadership then well again it's Nuance but I think I

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think it's serving the greater I think that's what a good leader is and by the

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greater I mean some it is the people under you the greater good right or the

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the cause or Mission that you are leading for is so sometimes you know a

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sheep does get nipped in the MD but it's for the greater cause it's if you stay out here I got to get you all in the pen

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because there's sheep at night right I mean excuse me there's wolves at night right and so you all got to be safe in

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the pen so some of you going to get nip nipped a little bit sure and it serving the greater cause right the greater

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cause is safety or whatever um well it's interesting even as you say that it's

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uh I think part of that leadership when we're looking at the greater good is the

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difference between I got to do this because it's about me or I need you need

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to get nipped in the bud because it's about your greater good and your safety

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you follow me I think sometimes that can get lost at times and when we're not

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reflecting on the greater good of others yeah and it's about me I need to

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get this done I need this and and it's about my agenda can be sh and I I guess

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that's my thing you know when I look at leaders and Leadership it's

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like how do the good ones remain good ones without being led astray by yes

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yeah you know right the circumstances that come in life you know I think of con you know

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um bill hiol is what comes to my mind you know tremendous you know he did his leadership Summits and so forth but yet

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he still fell in his own way and that's not to say that all of us can't fall but it's like I think you know when we hold

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leadership up on this yeah pedestal yeah I said yeah yep I think

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that's another Hallmark of true leadership is humility is this idea to say what you

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just said like hey I am a human just like the rest of us MH and the reason

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I'm where I am is because I have this much more responsibility and things to

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answer for and I've shown that I can do that but I'm not without failure right

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sure and I'm human yeah and I think you know leadership positions are that you

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always look up to them as if they're whatever again true good leadership

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represents a a lot of work it represents a lot of ideally selfless Behavior where you

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are doing a lot of work to make sure um

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things go the way they're meant to go you know the to to fit the vision to fit whatever and sometimes that means set

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being an example like a good leader sets the example you know role model yeah so

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you well an example like you do the thing you want the Sheep to do for instance right like um you run all the

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way to the back and you say come on you run all the way to the front and you run all the way back and you know each sheep

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sees you running for 10 feet but they're not aware of you're running circles around them right I think now I'm not

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saying that's good leadership but I am saying there is a part of leadership that just requires a lot of work sure I

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appreciate you working with my analogy even though it's in we stretching it's starting to you know the seams are

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starting to stretch a little but no I think that it is adequate explanation cuz there is a lot of behind the scenes

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work that gets missed by any individual uh that

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represents making a thing happen or you know pushing pushing the ball forward so

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to speak um I think good leaders as well know how

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to delegate to you you know like a good leader isn't self to the point where he

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burns up and I think that's um I think that's a valuable lesson that probably

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most good leaders learn the hard way maybe I don't know yeah um cuz in an

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effort to be selfless or whatever set the example it's easy to you know light

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the candle on both ends and I mean Jesus got away all the time

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and he you know he's to me he's the ultimate example of a leader right um he didn't demand and followers he just

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showed up and did what he was meant to do and people came you know and then

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when he needed rest Rejuvenation whatever he would pull himself away in

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in in the thick of the night or whatever whatever it took he would take care you know things um I don't

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know and and of course when we bring Jes there is that aspect of servant

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leadership you know what what does what does that look like and you you know

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well that's what I guess that's what I'm saying is I don't think that's different than true good leadership I think that

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it's it's synonymous and I think leadership the word that we hear in the

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the world whatever just generally speaking does not invoke that idea right

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right we think of the person that's at the front the the the face right of the

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entity is kind of what we've equated to leadership

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and yeah it's not always applicable that that I mean granted that

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person had the vision and I'm not I'm not that being said Christianity is named for Christ like

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sure he was the epitome of the head of the face he was on the cross hanging you

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know yeah I don't think that's that that's not a correct thing to say they

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can't be the face but servant leadership uh often they become the face

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because like I said they're in front of you serving bandages or whatever or

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they're hanging on the cross in Jesus case like you see them in ways that you

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think boy I'm not I'm glad I'm not there sure I'm glad I don't have to do what

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they're doing you know what I mean yeah I don't know and and I think it was it's interesting I guess as as you bring it

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up you know I think I think of the disciples you know you know when Jesus

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is washing their feet mhm you know and that servant leadership and how you know

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I think Peter right I believe it's Peter basically said don't don't wash you

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can't wash my feet yeah yeah wash your yeah and and I think you know that that

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good servant leadership like that almost makes us uncomfortable yeah because it's like

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that person's doing what I'm not sure I'm willing to do

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myself and I think that's where you're talking about you know being the example of doing what needs to be done

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you know even if it makes me uncomfortable you know serving other

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people that sometimes I just want to judge and and push

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aside and I think that brings up that other part of it that I get to sometimes is like you know

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I think the leadership of the face the person at the top it does tend to have some sometimes

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a distance there can be this distance between the Top If You Will and other

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people and it's and that that I think that's the part that's almost distasteful for me yeah so let's talk

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about that yeah because um you know again keep using Jesus as an example

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that's kind of that makes it easy like you think about The Sermon on

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the Mount you know you know or where they fed 5,000 right and the people in

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the back they weren't able to connect with Jesus they weren't a you know what I mean yeah and but who who do the story

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interact with the most well the disciples sure and so as much

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as it's ideal to say there you know at least or as a man of the people or

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whatever there's only so many people yeah you can reach you can connect with

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you can whatever and not to mention your time is valuable and so you have to

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prioritize where where that goes right where that time goes yeah and you know of course I think you and I would argue

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the same thing which is that priority sometimes lies with the people or like walking among them whatever yeah you

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know like going walking to the back of that crowd sure and I don't know but I

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also think most a large part of the New Testament is Jesus and the disciples

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only right where he's trying to build and Infuse into them the vision and

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Mission right sure so that he can go with them when he's not there right sure

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um so that what they are leaving him to do repres presents what his father wants

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them to do sure you know and I think that's any good leader that's going to

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be a large per percentage of their time is investing in the people closest to

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him so that when they leave away from him they do the thing that he's trying to do which is serve the vision and

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Mission sure right don't do what I want you to do but I want you to do what the

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vision and Mission wants us to do sometimes that will go against what I say and when those times happen we need

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to work you know work through that because again as a leader you're not

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infallible right and I don't know no I appreciate the analogy because

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I think you know we do have that tendency even to judge leaders because of where we where we are

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in that hierarchy if you will yeah you follow me if if you know if you see

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yourself as the one you know you know the man as as him being the man it's

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like well I'm not sure how I feel about the man when I'm in the back of the crowd yeah but yet you know the people

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that include me or uh you know the people that I tend to have influence

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over you know it's like being able to have that same perspective of being able

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to say okay how how approachable am I in my areas that I am you know a role model

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or yeah and it's just a it's a it's a great way to look at it from my perspective you know

18:05
on that c because I I think you know as much as I like to think about the innate

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aspect of leadership I think leadership is something that can be learned and developed yes you know correct I agree

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yeah it's not necessarily just something that I'm born to do even though I think you know that

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innate aspect is beneficial yep maybe okay go for it

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maybe uh yes if leveraged properly no if

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not because I hear where you're coming from I do think a large number of the

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leaders that we have that we are aware of in our world that are you know in our

18:50
opinion are bad leaders I got you very many of them probably you would say had

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that innate thing and still do right sure um Putin for instance right like

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yeah um well the the it can drive all the wrong things I guess is what I'm and

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I and as you were going there my mind is like Bully you know that's where my mind goes

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and I'm not saying all leaders are you know but that bad leadership is the kid

19:21
that grew up bullying kids on the playground ends up having influence later on in some ways too and may still

19:28
will be using the same fear anger as as a motivational thing and yeah I'm that

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that's just kind of what came to my mind is what you were sharing but yet it's not necessarily a

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healthy form of leadership but yet or or I think

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sometimes um Charisma yeah if you will can tend to

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draw people therefore that person becomes a leader that might not

20:00
necessarily have the interest of the follower in mind right and I think you

20:06
know that's a that's a not exactly the positive model right for

20:14
leadership yeah I mean all these things are great right Charisma and an innate

20:22
sense of leadership um but we you know we've proven over and

20:27
over and over that we can use those things for all the wrong reasons you know as as humans

20:33
and yeah so I I think yeah you hit the nail on the head but I definitely think there are many leaders out

20:40
that and again how far are they from H being good true leaders well I think it

20:47
really depends on how convinced they are that they are a great leader right sure

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yeah and and I guess I and I and this is I think what what brings it to our minds

21:00
to a certain degree is I think we've all had or most of us have had good

21:08
leadership that we value esteem and yet we've probably been hurt at some time

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you know by a specific leader either either I'm not even saying it's always

21:22
intentional but you know in that in the operation

21:29
you know there was there was a hurt there was a miscommunication there was something that and therefore I'm a

21:37
little jaded yeah when it comes to leadership or you know depending on how

21:44
that fell out I think that's where we can have such polarity as far as or

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should you know kind of I guess the difference between should there really be leadership or you know no you know yeah

21:57
you got to have leaders so who's going to tell us what to do and where to go yeah you know but at the other time so

22:04
that I guess that's the what makes it such a nuanced I yeah I also find that those

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most critical of leadership uh well there's two two kinds

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of people in my my how I see it opinion it's those who want to be the leader

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gotcha they're the critics right or those who have never glimpsed

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right or have spent their life avoiding

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leadership gotcha right and of course don't get me wrong those aren't the two

22:40
c only two categories but I think those are maybe the most vocal critics that you hear it's like well yeah you know

22:47
you're not getting the hand me- Downs you want right like as someone who's never aspired to leadership or really

22:55
shouldn't their complaints might represent like they're not doing enough for me you know what I mean yeah and

23:02
whereas uh you know aspiration someone with the aspirations towards leadership

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we go well they're not clearly not doing this thing look they're not taking care of you they're not feeling your needs

23:13
and I don't know um I don't know it's just interesting but well that's a great

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that's a that's a great insight as far as you know I I think you know because I

23:24
think of I'll I'll be honest when I complain that's that's you know that process you

23:31
know might be step stepping on my toes I'll be honest you know to the point of when I complain you know where's that

23:38
coming from yeah you follow me yeah and and being able to recognize that and say

23:45
okay yeah that's a that's that's a great perspective I I even as

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uh I'm GNA have to uh I think of F3 F3 comes to mind you know the the fitness

23:58
group that we have you know cuz that's a rotational leadership yeah and it's

24:04
interesting you know because I look at that group and I recognize there are

24:11
guys who just want who prefer to lead you know when they need leadership there

24:17
are a group there's a there's a core of guys that will lead there y you know and

24:23
it's and I and I I'll sometimes stand back or sit back because it's like

24:29
I do here again I don't see myself as that leader I'm not what I might

24:34
consider an A type A personality leader I I'm comfortable leading if there's a

24:42
vacuum right you know if a if leadership isn't available I have no problem

24:47
filling a gap that's that's who I am that's how I see that yeah but I have to

24:54
in that I'm also willing to wrestle with is it that aspect of that second category do I fall into

25:01
that second category what was the second category where where I'm abdicating

25:08
leadership yeah and they're not serving your needs kind of thing yeah I'm I I'm

25:13
I'm just being transparent in that to the point of being able to say okay

25:19
because that's what I'm saying F3 cames in mind I don't and I have led at F3 but

25:25
I always recognize that there's guys who desire and therefore I do allow them not allow

25:31
them but you know what I'm saying it's like it's like okay with me yeah to follow them and yet so that's that's

25:39
where I'm uh just just pondering that and yeah and I I think too if if you

25:45
want to grow in empathy towards your leaders attempt to lead some things

25:51
right because when you do you start to see behind the curtain and you see the

25:57
lever and you see you know yeah and it's like oh someone's pulling all these levers and it's like oh oh I have to

26:04
pull these lever you know what I mean yeah

26:09
and I will definitely say as someone who's you know led a few things like

26:16
nothing huge or whatever but let CR for a while and and work you know have some management position which which I'll get

26:24
to this in a minute but I don't think leadership is management you know anyway

26:29
I'll get to this in a minute yep the point is as someone who's touched his toes in leadership a few times how I've

26:37
been I've got give gotten so much empathy towards leaders to just go the

26:43
job is hard and it really doesn't matter which direction you go there will

26:51
be some outliers who maybe not even outliers maybe there'll be a huge chunk

26:57
of people who have disagree agree with you right sure and I would argue that

27:02
that's correct leadership true leadership is going to have its critics sure you know because

27:11
you are meant to serve the vision and Mission whatever that is right and that

27:16
is a singular purpose where the law of nature is entropy where we move from

27:23
Focus you know organized to chaos and it's because Mark wants something

27:30
different Justin wants something different Megan wants something different Joe wants something different Bill wants something different all

27:36
different versions sure of what they think we're doing where we're going and

27:42
if we were to follow you know you can't follow all of those you stop dead in the water right and we're not meant to we're

27:49
meant to serve the vision and Mission as a leader like you're meant to continue pointing towards that North Star sure um

27:57
and so there's going to be times where you lose bill because Bill turns out he didn't really care for that Vision to

28:03
Mission he thought he did but what he really wanted was you know 5 degrees

28:08
north of that vision and Mission and no we're not we're not going there that's not the direction we're heading that's

28:14
not the velocity we will never head that way that's not what this organization is

28:20
about and I think good leadership is good about being clear about that and then bill goes okay I get it this

28:26
organization isn't for me right I think an or and and if I may if we're looking at the church is that not

28:33
where other denominations tend to start from if I mean you know I think there is

28:38
that yeah I I'm not even saying it's an unhealthy thing I'm not saying it's a negative thing you know to the point of

28:45
you know there can be a vision and we focus on this a in this whole broad

28:50
aspect of Christ Living if you will you know I think part of it comes down to

28:56
and that's probably part of the reason that the church isn't always looked at

29:03
positively because it may you know I'm just saying the church in general has at

29:09
times probably lost the vision of its Mission and that's what gets judged

29:15
harshly or you know criticized by those who are outside and it kind of and I I I

29:22
mentioned that because it plays in with what you're sharing as far as okay how do you keep that a singular Focus that

29:29
allows people to come and go but this is the direction we're heading and yet if

29:34
you want to come with us fine and yet if you don't that's okay too it's not a

29:41
there's the door type mentality it's that this is what we do yes it's okay if

29:47
this isn't doesn't serve your particular needs because it is built to serve a

29:54
particular set of needs exactly right because we can't we can't be all things all people an organization can't a human

30:02
can't you know we're meant and God gives us particular Visions missions in in our

30:08
hearts right like we give it a calling yeah calling passion and so sometimes

30:14
the organization you're in does not align with that and that's okay yes you

30:19
know and you know this kind of ties into some of the toxic masculinity or Chau

30:25
chauvinistic ideas we've talked about in our past episode where we get caught up in this idea that leaving a thing or

30:32
quitting a thing is so just just cowardly and wrong and which is just not

30:41
accurate now of course you can quit and leave a thing cowardly of course but

30:46
often quitting or leaving a thing is the more Brave option sure right yeah

30:52
because you look at the opportunities in front of you you think I could stay in this current yes and it would be easier

30:59
yes or I could climb out on the shore and figure out what current I'm supposed to you know I mean and that's the more

31:06
difficult thing and I think in in in in sharing with what you're adding to if I

31:11
may um I think some of that takes time sometimes we enter we might enter

31:19
you know uh opportunity you know a group you know following a specific leader but

31:26
then over time we recognize I'm not sure this vision is

31:33
aligning like I thought it would and we have to be able to step away and be able

31:39
to recognize and and have those honest conversations that say yeah you know

31:44
this just wasn't what I thought it was well there's three reasons for that tell me about maybe there's more three three

31:52
that just came to mind yeah three how I see it yeah one is that you misunder the

31:58
vision of mission y That's entirely possible right and that could be because a okay we'll just say let's say it's on

32:06
my side okay so that's one way is I misunderstood and the whole time they

32:11
were communicating well what their vision and I said I think when you say that you mean this and I just bot into

32:17
that for long enough and go okay I guess they mean what they say right the other side is it's communicated incorrectly

32:25
this expectations aren't set so I understand it to be this because that's what's and so does everyone or so does

32:31
most people right that's what's communicated that's what's communicated and yet as you drift in this stream this

32:37
current long enough you don't know it's not flowing towards that sure so you see that yes and you you go okay now I

32:45
understand this is not what it's purported to be sure and the third thing is you when it was communicated well you

32:53
understood it well and you change right sure like I was on bored

32:58
with this this is what I was about but I've changed and that's okay too right

33:03
is it okay to change our minds Mark yes it is we want a growth mindset that's

33:09
right that's right so sometimes you recognize I've been in this current for

33:15
years and that was serve me well and now I recognize new callings new passions

33:20
new understandings and I believe 5° to the north is better sure and so I'm

33:26
going to find an or organization or start one that's heading that direction sure is that wrong is that um does that

33:34
indicate that the organization is doing it no not necessarily right no doesn't

33:40
have to be yeah I mean there can be areas where it is to that point right where it's like no I'm recognizing this

33:46
is unhealthy right and I think that's that's the part where it's personal

33:52
leadership if you will that personal responsibility to be able to say okay

33:58
this is not what I thought it was or this is not what it was communicated to be or I have changed and now it's time

34:06
for me to do something different or I misunderstood it sure and it's yeah it's

34:11
time for me to do something different yeah so personal leadership is on on like yeah that that's the one and if

34:18
we're talking about leadership I think the best thing that you can do is figure out your vision and Mission and

34:24
communicate it nonstop sure set expect expectations early and often right that

34:30
this is what we're going to be doing sure this is the direction we're headed right right and this is what that

34:37
direction looks like over here and this is what that direction looks like in this part and this is what this direction looks like at this time of day

34:44
right like and setting those expectations as often as you can in every area you can letting that vision

34:51
and Mission filter down through every decision right those values um

34:58
I I think that's as a leader the best thing you can do so that those who

35:04
misunderstood you can't do it for very long sure and those who find themselves

35:10
disagreeing with you can come to that conclusion safely and clearly and

35:15
quickly and like I don't want someone to serve in an organization that maybe I would lead that's not on board with the

35:23
vision of mission right like yeah that's I get it move on yeah you know what I

35:28
mean and if anything that I think that brings up another point it's like you know if I think there is that tendency

35:36
with the two fallacies you share you know of I want to be the leader or you know that kind of thing I think we can

35:43
tend to as humans we can tend to hijack the mission and almost come in

35:49
and kind of like the Wolves type thing you know when you know Jesus talks about you know I start pulling other people

35:58
aside and saying well if I was leader I'd do this we'd have ice cream at lunch

36:04
you know in a simplified version but you know I would be pull you know this this isn't right and this isn't and I think

36:11
that's that's the sad part of you

36:16
know sometimes Church leadership is that you know I'll I I where the factions

36:22
right you know are created and I'm and I'm just uh I'm just as we're talking about that that's what comes to mind for

36:28
me is that yeah you know how many times I've seen that and it's like it just

36:35
leads to that division again and you know telling people what they may want to hear I just yeah that's sad yeah when

36:42
that happens yeah and what do you do as a leader about that yeah I think

36:50
sometimes you stand up and you say hey follow me or don't you know like you

36:57
know yeah and I think that's where you know some of the stuff you were saying earlier like it I have empathy for yeah

37:04
this idea that hey right-hand man what can you get up and just remind them what

37:11
the vision and Mission is and that that's what I'm here to serve right as a leader and that you know I I think good

37:19
leadership points to the vision and Mission okay and says follow that you

37:25
know and that's what I'm trying to follow yeah sometimes I'll miss the Mark or whatever I'm not perfect but that's

37:31
what we're going if you're not up for that yeah that's okay yeah but don't try

37:37
and you know drag people into your own little click or your own world and and

37:43
you know don't judge them don't put a log Jam in the river exactly you know

37:48
because we are trying to go to this direction we're trying to go somewhere and you know what I mean I do and of

37:56
course it brings up a good quote though that you wanted to share I think as far

38:01
if I'm uh if I'm viewing things correctly you know on that judgmental yeah well I was thinking

38:08
about people who believe that you know leaders should are wrong for one reason

38:13
or another whether it's the I'm a sheep and you're not feeding me fast enough or I'm a leader in training well who thinks

38:22
you're doing it wrong right yeah um it makes me think of Theodore Roosevelt's

38:27
speech where the man in the arena he says it's not the critic who counts not the man who points out how the strong

38:33
man stumbles or the doer of Deeds could have done them better the credit belongs

38:38
to the man who's actually in the arena the whose face is marred by dust and

38:44
sweat and blood who strives valiantly who HS who comes short again and again

38:49
because there is no effort without error and shortcoming but who does actually strive to do the Deeds who knows great

38:56
enthusiast as Ms the great devotions who spends himself in a worthy cause who at the best knows in the end the Triumph of

39:03
high achievement and who at the worst if he fails at least fails while daring

39:09
greatly so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid Souls who NE

39:14
neither know Victory nor defeat and that's a part of his much larger speech

39:21
but I mean I think that says it all right especially in specifically to what

39:26
we're talking about with criticizing leadership or whatever it's like until you get in the arena yourself

39:35
mhm yeah it's you don't count to that person I think that's where you see some

39:40
of the insulation happening gotcha is there needs to be a certain amount of

39:47
that to be sane or the a certain amount of what to

39:52
be saying insallation from the voices from the critics and a certain amount of

39:58
insulation can be separation it can also be a smile and nodding right mhm it can

40:05
be you know what I'm saying I hear you I hear you I hear you yes exactly it can

40:11
be and I hear you that's good um so yeah I think a lot

40:18
of the things that you and I talk about in regards to good and bad leadership I think I have a more

40:28
generous take on it because I've tried to do leaderships i' I've been in the in

40:34
the arena in a few places and you get blooded you get beat up you know it's hard yeah and it's very on any

40:44
given day you feel like you're you're losing again you know and it's like what

40:49
do you do today to to turn things around and can I turn things around and it it's

40:55
just challenging you know and all comes to you it's like well we're not going the direction we want to be who should I

41:01
point fingers at well yeah me I have to point them at me it starts with me as

41:06
the leader all right so what do I have to do as the leader you know because I can't

41:13
go to my right-and man go why didn't you whatever more and it's

41:18
like that that might be part like the idea that your right-hand man's not

41:23
doing his job might be part of what you have to do as the leader sure but it's

41:28
not a finger pointing why aren you whatever look what's happening because of you it's I failed you in some form or

41:36
another for for this to be happening it could just be I failed in discipline yeah it could be I failed in projecting

41:43
Vision it could be I failed in accountability and checking up and I I could it could be I failed in equipping

41:50
you with what you needed to succeed so what are you feeling right now I'm seeing this emotion that are other s

41:57
aren't going to see on the other side of the mic um talk with me about that well

42:04
I think a big part of it was celebrate recovery and leading that for several

42:09
years and it took a toll you know in a in a good way I think I think I told in

42:16
a good way uh I think well for one one of the one of the

42:23
values I've taken from it is empathy is to rec recognize leadership is hard and

42:31
you'll never do it perfect according to the eyes of and even your own like

42:38
typically a leader a good true leader is going to be as big as critic sure he's

42:43
going to be the one who sees most what he's doing wrong right and so when you

42:50
balance I can I think about the times where I think about the T all the things that I was doing wrong M and when

42:58
someone says hey this thing you know you're not feeding me fast enough or whatever it was right it's like I know

43:05
why you're upset about that and it's not because I'm not feeding you fast enough

43:10
and it's it's because I'm not doing this over here correctly that would you know what I

43:16
mean and and you would even see that even before an individual might even say

43:22
something often right right cuz you you see the trickle down effect as a leader you you have the vision to you know if

43:28
you're doing it right to be able to see if I don't do this today in 3 weeks someone's going to complain about not

43:34
eating again or whatever whatever it is right and then it happens you're like yeah I know but I couldn't get over to

43:41
that thing Y and there so leaders are fallible they are limited yeah and so

43:47
just recognizing how difficult it is and yeah yeah no I appreciate you

43:54
sharing from that and it's and it is interesting because not in that role but as I think about

44:00
you know uh Sparrow's rest you know when people come out you know they'll see

44:06
what we've done and it's like you know it's not a big deal

44:11
but the prioritizing that has to go into a vision yeah because so often I think

44:19
it is you know people who haven't necessarily been privy to the whole

44:25
journey you know the years or year and a half or we're coming in it's like the

44:31
the tendency is and I hear it all time well you should do this and you should do this and you should do this and it's

44:37
like it's not that those things aren't on my radar and I would love to be able

44:43
to do those and yes but in the meantime my I only have so much

44:50
bandwidth and this is what I'm prioritizing and the rest will have to

44:56
come and follow with that so I'm I'm I'm appreciate as a leader too it's like

45:03
that's a good idea is it is it a great idea that serves a vision and Mission

45:08
sometimes it's a great idea that serves it but like you said there's I have no ability to make that happen hey are you

45:15
up are you willing yeah no no no that this would be a great thing for you to do it's like well yeah it's yeah yep you

45:23
get a lot of that yes like weekly [Laughter]

45:29
we should do this you're right good idea and uh that's that's some of the insulation you build too to just

45:37
go just understanding that partly well okay let me let me

45:44
reframe this an awesome part of that is that people care sure exactly and so in

45:51
an organization like that's something I had to reframe my brain from like this represents something I can't do or

45:57
irritation that you're you're bringing up a sore spot right to going man this

46:03
is cool because this person cares about what we're doing here and the closer it is to vision and Mission the more it's

46:09
like this is this person MH is valuable in what we're doing if that makes sense

46:16
now if they're not willing to step up and do that particular thing they might buy into a smaller bite right like

46:22
taking a smaller bite of leadership and and or whatever ownership and one way or another and um I don't know just re

46:30
recognizing that a lot of those things can be good indications good healthy

46:36
indications and I think if you have a healthy organization there absolutely should be push back there should be

46:43
feedback about um how things can be improved or different or whatever um and

46:49
it is the leadership trickle down leadership's roles to figure out which of those things fit in and help make us

46:56
better which maybe don't or maybe our distraction right now exactly cuz that's the thing too like there's so many

47:03
amazing things that could be done but they become a distraction from what you're reaching for right now and many

47:09
people would argue that no this thing is the thing you should do not the thing you're reaching for it's like well until

47:15
they kick me out and put you here MH we'll do this yeah because this is what

47:20
I'm invested in and often too it's like well just stop that and do this and they don't recognize the years that were

47:27
built into what you're doing and so to stop doing it

47:33
represents a lot of things it can represent a lot of drama it can represent you

47:39
know I I can't even tell you all the things it can represent just it's not that simple I guess yeah you know and so

47:46
it's like well like I said I've thought this so many times if they kick me out and put you in charge I'll do what

47:52
you're talking about because that's a good thing sure right now I can't jump ship you know what I mean yeah yeah yeah

47:59
because it would be for you in that moment based on where you're at that would be a shifting of the vision a

48:07
vision change and if you're not there if you're you know I think there's

48:12
something to be said I know we did the one on we haven't released vision statement yet have we mission statement

48:17
mission statement we have not no yeah that that that comes to mind as far as

48:23
you know what what is it to be and what am I to be about so yeah that's great stuff Justin I

48:29
appreciate yeah well I want to just say one more thing yeah you go right ahead I'm saying I'm still saying that's great

48:34
stuff I'm not necessarily transitioning to the end I was waiting for the that's how I see

48:42
it uh no one one last thought is like in my time in leadership with various

48:49
things I try to be the kind of leader that I value and fail at it often so I I

48:58
just I as much as we talk about how I see it I also see it how I see it is

49:04
that it's very difficult probably impossible to meet this the standard of

49:11
great leadership um to the level that I that I wish that I could or that I want to see

49:18
in others but I think it's worth striving for is that that great

49:25
leadership that service leadership that it is difficult it is hard but I think

49:31
it's worth it especially if it represents the greater Vision as a

49:40
Believer to build God's kingdom yeah and so that that's another episode I'd like

49:47
to do someday you know about our kingdom his kingdom this idea but

49:55
um yeah I don't know I hopefully that says enough it's just that I it's not that I

50:02
think I I think I'm so far from the standard

50:08
that I want to see and the leaders around me that that also gives me a lot

50:14
of empathy for them to say as much as I think I know what good

50:21
leadership looks like I could not meet it on a consistent basis but I tried

50:27
hard right and I know they're trying hard I can see proof of trying hard

50:34
around me right mhm and so then there's that Grace that comes to

50:39
say until it's clear like it's that that whole thing like until I see the

50:45
direction I'm supposed to do go you know personally different from the vision and

50:50
Mission that we're following in this particular organization I'm going to stay with this one Trust

50:57
that the it's going to work right like like we're still heading towards the

51:02
vision and Mission despite failures in leadership sure and that's a good thing

51:07
like if you still see the streams flowing the direction that um that they're the vision and Mission reports

51:14
to MH to me that's a good thing yeah that again it comes down to me whether I want to climb out right out of the river

51:21
it comes down to me whether I you know have C C of influence versus

51:27
circle of concern do I have the influence to communicate with the people in leadership my concerns and is it

51:35
within their circle of influence to you know listen to me or like

51:41
take do those things coming to mind too and that's kind of like the the the

51:46
Sheep who complains about their me needs not getting fed well fed their circle of

51:51
concern you know is the leadership that they have they don't it's outside of their circle of influence and so then

51:58
like you said sometimes they'll start nagging at the people that is within their circle of influence and saying hey

52:04
don't you think it should be like this hey don't you think and try and grow their influence that way you know and

52:11
yeah of course we think that's an unhealthy way to do it but yeah anyway no yeah anything else you'd like to

52:18
share comes to mind appreciate you sharing your wisdom with us this morning um I think this's one last that

52:26
which is leadership is not a role so just because someone is a

52:32
manager doesn't mean they're again a good true leader MH and vice versa just

52:38
because someone is not a manager does not mean they're not leading well does

52:43
that make sense or a politician you think of politicians just because they are a in the House of Representatives or

52:50
senate or president does not mean they're a good true leader mhm right

52:56
yeah and I and I think but I do think there are individuals who might be when

53:01
we think of politicians who might be a leader or I don't know I I think a

53:08
person can be elevated according to agenda maybe

53:14
without necessarily being a good leader that would be my take on that but yeah

53:24
yeah that's a I I guess that I think there's a part where an individual can

53:30
be part of a bigger machine that puts someone in place yeah for a purpose yeah

53:35
but it doesn't mean they're a fit for that yeah and this gets into a whole

53:40
topic of politics which would be interesting to cover someday too because I think by the time you have success in

53:47
politics you have had to compromise too much to be what I call a good leader

53:53
yeah I think that's where I think that's where we're machine works right yeah yeah I think that's what we're trying to

54:00
say or I was trying to say in a in a polite manner without being judgmental

54:07
but yeah they again yeah I'm looking forward to having Jason on Judge Jason

54:13
yeah because it'll be fun to hear because yeah yeah no doubt perspective

54:18
no doubt this is how we see it thanks thank you

54:26
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