0:00
[Music] welcome to how I see it with me Mark

0:06
Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a podcast that works to

0:11
countercultural polarization through thoughtful [Music]

0:19
conversations yeah and I think it's interesting and and like say it's personal to me more so in some ways you

0:24
know we we think about the civilians you I think you used that word earlier you

0:29
know the civilians that pay in that and But ultimately for me I think that does

0:34
come back down to families you know cuz so often they what what marriage is and

0:40
what families are those are the things that are being attacked in that because you know that's I think in some ways

0:47
that is from my perspective that is the the image of God

0:54
you know a designed image of God in that in that process so we have to dismantle

1:00
that in some ways you know to be able to you know kind of shall we say try to

1:07
erase that image that's there you know that impression if you will MH but yeah

1:13
I just so yeah I think you know so often it really does come back to that Dynamic

1:18
and we you know we go away from you know the aspect of what God has designed you

1:24
know through his church through you know these these that we are designed to live

1:29
in this social interaction this relational interaction and yet you know

1:35
it it's about you know separating the government comes to kind of I mean if you will kind of almost Satan's model

1:42
not not saying all government is Satan but you know what I mean you know to to divide and Destroy whereas God came to

1:49
you know bring together and unify and it's just a it's just interesting how when we turn it's it's very much like

1:56
you're saying when we aren't basing things on the truth we're left with that lie and suddenly it's years down the

2:03
road before we suddenly realize oh my goodness this was this was fallacy yeah so yeah I appreciate that point in that

2:09
in that part one of the reasons I I feel like

2:15
Christianity is so compelling and and what the Bible teaches really is true it

2:21
it stems from what you said Mark where the nuclear family marriage and

2:28
husband and wife bearing children that is the image of God sure and that is

2:34
what all healthy civilizations are built on and throughout history going back to

2:39
the The Grecian Empire the Roman Empire way back we have seen Empires fall

2:46
when the nuclear family and marriage becomes corrupted and one of the reasons

2:53
why communism was so evil is because KL Marx hated Christianity in particular

2:59
but he also hated the institution of marriage and the nuclear family wow and

3:05
Marxism it one of its one of its Bedrock principles is there will be no marriage

3:12
there will be no male and female roles to play in society and children will be

3:18
raised by the collective not by parents and so

3:23
throughout communism in in the 20th century we saw that played out where marriage was marriages were dissolved

3:31
and children were raised not by parents but by the state wow and that was one of

3:36
the reasons why communism never worked and it collapsed the unfortunate part is that it wasn't just an experiment that

3:43
failed and people learned from it right it it resulted in the deaths of millions

3:48
of people sure and so that that's one of the reasons why I get a little upset

3:54
when I see people advocating for communism here in the United States sure and trying to bring back these

4:00
principles where you know parents don't have the right to raise their children

4:06
we need to delegate that right to the state the state knows how to raise our kids better than we do that fires me up

4:12
sure because how can you say that it's because you haven't studied history sure

4:18
the the those of us who have we can say we know how this ends we we've seen this story played out we we already know how

4:26
the ending is and um so it's a it's a volitional denial of what we should have

4:33
already learned no I I think too though history looking at history um is one

4:41
example of our lenses right and my view

4:46
of the truth versus your view of the truth and I believe many of the cases where you said um if we look at history

4:53
we'll see X it's very possible to be on atheist side the Communist side and say

5:00
well if I look at history I see why I see Christians were involved in that problem I see the church was involved in

5:07
that problem I see you know what I mean in in almost unilaterally if I if you

5:14
wanted to and if your view was bent that way you could say no I I think the problem is God there is you know Christ

5:21
you know people's weak mind have to depend on something bigger than themselves prevented them from doing the

5:27
right thing the crch yes exactly and so I think that um as much as relative

5:35
truth is debunk it's not avoidable right like there will be a relative truth and

5:42
again that's how I see it right like no matter no matter how much we admit that

5:49
there is a central truth it doesn't avoid the fact that there's also relative truth and but what I mean by

5:54
that is the relative truth isn't the truth but it's there yeah right and so we have to play by the those rules a lot

6:03
of times like where if I want to have a conversation with that atheist and I put

6:08
you on the spot earlier to say speak like an atheist good go you know and it's like well good luck right but if I

6:14
want to have that conversation with the atheist I can't say your view is wrong my view is Right

6:21
M right because my view isn't the truth mhm and so I think a lot of times we get

6:26
in those crap flinging battles yeah right where it's like you know your

6:31
views wrong and my views right no my views you know your views wrong and my views right and ultimately that will

6:37
never be a successful battle we have to appeal to a higher truth problem is there again in that conversation where

6:43
I'm talking to an atheist if I appeal to that high Authority higher authority they don't agree with well at the end

6:49
we'll probably have to come to agree to disagree and that's has to be okay

6:56
right getting back to um what I mentioned before I think this is where

7:02
following the consequences becomes important because you're absolutely right I can't walk up to an atheist and

7:08
say you're wrong because he's just going to throw that right back in in my face CU again how we see it is different well

7:15
I think it's even important we're we're going with the atheist you know chrisan but I think you know we could even

7:20
translate this to other religions other Dynamics or even Christians side of the aisle fighting

7:27
for this thing that I disagree with I just want yeah it's not so yeah I granted

7:33
this is a polarizing topic but I think there's other po you know there's other polls in that Dynamic that you're

7:38
expressing sorry Jeff didn't mean to interrupt that's all right I I I feel like it's it's having those

7:44
conversations is a lot more effective if you say okay let's assume your view is

7:50
correct what follows logically from that and then you keep going and if you like

7:56
where you end up great but if you logically follow the conclusion all the way to the end and you realize this is a

8:03
scary place to be it's all based on that Foundation where did we start maybe

8:09
that's where the problem is and that's how math how you prove theorems in math

8:16
that's that's how it happens one of the very common ways to prove theorems in mathematics is the proof by

8:22
contradiction where you assume a premise is true or false sure

8:29
and then you follow all of the previously established rules and if you end up in a contradiction it goes all

8:36
the way back and you have to assume your foundation was false sure and so you you do The Logical opposite of it and you've

8:43
proved it true does that make sense yeah yeah yeah basically a hypothesis null

8:48
and void I mean to that degree you're you're proving that point and if it doesn't if it doesn't add up if it

8:56
doesn't if what you're thinking doesn't make sense then yeah it's it's not valid

9:02
yeah yeah no yeah and I like I like the way like you say you know it's important

9:09
for us to basically pull the thread yeah in some ways and then pull the thread and then pull the thread until the point

9:14
of being able to say okay is this what we thought it was is do we end up where we thought it would right based on what

9:21
I initially believe and I think that kind of brings it back to where you were at at the beginning you know it's like

9:26
being able to recognize if I'm not if my if my Foundation is in error I have to

9:34
be able to acknowledge that yes versus just clinging tighter to it in the hopes

9:39
of propping it up yep and I think pulling the thread can be useful for that or can

9:47
actually cement someone in their position no matter how wrong at the when you get to the end of the thread it's

9:52
like no but it's right and you know it's like depending on how hard you pull and how you know and that kind of thing um

10:00
and and ultimately at the end of that conversation they may or may not agree

10:06
again it doesn't matter if we come to the end of the conclusion and say I feel like I proved my point but you know it's

10:11
up to you to accept that and so like if you like going back to like using athe

10:17
atheism and following it to its logical conclusion well there is no truth there's no and they would say yep I agree right like cuz usually I wouldn't

10:26
say most atheist atheist but I would say kind of the prominent ones we know of they've done the homework they followed

10:32
the thread as far as it'll go and they say I'm comfortable I accept what this

10:37
means right I've pulled the thread all the way down and I know that it means well there is no truth I know that my my

10:43
existence doesn't matter I understand that what I do today I only do because it makes me feel good and I don't know

10:49
why but it doesn't matter because I'm going to end up dust or whatever they they' pulled those threads and they're

10:54
still perfectly content to exist on that Foundation and they feel like it's a

11:00
solid one right um and I think it's important to understand that's not just true with atheism that's true from every

11:07
polarizing Viewpoint right and I think the value in this kind of conversation

11:15
is providing new views into the ultimate truth so that over time I can continue

11:23
to evaluate my Foundation right and so in that let's go back to this conversation with this you know

11:28
hypothetical atheist that conversation may not end in them going oh you're right like I do believe in a higher

11:35
power name Jesus Christ you know Son of God whatever uh but that doesn't mean

11:40
it's not a valuable input into their view that they can no longer discount

11:46
remove you know there you may have had a made some inroads in that in that way and ultimately it's about the

11:52
conversation you know I think um yeah I also think too going back to the

11:58
civilization thing so many times it's much easier

12:05
to visualize the bad is that side over there right like going oh I can see it I

12:11
got my binoculars and I clearly see they're they're at fault and that's why this is happening right so let's go to

12:17
dismantling a family we can say well it's the liberal Viewpoint it's you know it's all these things um it's you know

12:26
the Democrats or it's even in some cases Republicans doing trying to do the right thing but end up doing the you know you

12:32
can point to all these things and the problem with that is it's shortsighted and is exactly what the actual designer

12:39
of that would want right so you know we believe not only in a higher power we also believe in a lesser power named the

12:45
devil who is has some level of authority on this planet until Jesus says okay

12:52
your time's up right and his best schemes are to be under the radar are

12:59
and accomplish his his means his his goal which is destruction of Faith

13:05
destruction of God you know like try and get everyone off the track of God as much as possible but in a way he he

13:11
knows he's it's most effective when he's not visible right so if he can get you pointing your finger across the aisle at

13:18
that other side right then so I think I think it's so important too often in these conversations to understand that

13:24
there is something that is making you on the other side believe what you believe that's not good right and probably on my

13:33
side too right and understanding that ultimately we do have to appeal to higher higher power and understand these

13:40
relative truths are being influenced by the prince of the air by a lion who's

13:46
prowling right and it it influences in in our government it influences in our

13:52
media it's influences in um what I consume right like what I let into my my

13:59
heart and my brain um I don't know I just think that's an important understanding to have like there is this

14:04
ultimate truth there's Mark's version of the truth there's Jeff's version of the truth there's my version of the truth

14:10
and then there's this cloud between all of us and it is evil right which makes

14:17
our view of the truth cloudy like Paul said we have a view we look through a glass Darkly you know he's saying like I

14:24
have a glimpse of the truth but when I look through it's like foggy right and that's evil that's our human nature

14:30
which is inherently evil and we're redeemed when we accept Jesus and he says You know despite that you get to

14:36
get you know come on up to heaven because I putting my uh initiating my uh

14:43
righteousness onto you imputing it right because you don't have it because you have this darkness in you and all that

14:49
kind I don't know I'm kind of going off on a a long Rabbit Trail preach it Justin preach it I just think it's

14:55
important to understand not only is there your truth my truth in the truth

15:01
there's also this Cloud that is confusion yeah Darkness confusion doubt

15:09
despair you know like and I think it's interesting you bring up that point too because I think so often you know our

15:15
our views of God a higher power you know

15:21
are reflected you know from our hurts as we talk about it so often you know Hurts

15:26
Habits hang-up type thing you know it's like whether I would want if I pull that

15:32
thread and I acknowledge that there is God then my my choices my my decisions

15:41
if you will have consequences and if I don't want those to have consequences if I don't want to

15:48
have to acknowledge then I can do whatever I want to do which seems

15:54
convenient in the moment but I think so often as we're talking about you know down the road historically speaking you

16:01
know me just doing what I want to do and and not factoring in the benefit of other people or you know how you know

16:10
how truth is available you know I think that that has a consequence and I think

16:15
it's part of the clouding we don't want to always recognize acknowledge that okay me just

16:22
doing what I feel comfortable doing while it feels good in the moment isn't necessarily advantageous long term MH

16:30
and I think so often it is that confusion and it's that desire to to

16:36
construct my view based on the hurt that I desire to cover over or don't want to

16:43
acknowledge it it kind of help it it causes me to live in that shame that pulls back from truth you know your

16:51
truth God's truth you know we we want to it it tends to want we tend to want to

16:57
live in that is ated shame and you know I think even as we talk about other

17:04
people I have to acknowledge that myself even who I am at times I want to pull

17:10
back from that truth if you will even God's truth because it's it's

17:16
Illuminating and you know and I think when when we're able to recognize okay illumination isn't a bad thing but it

17:23
might be very uncomfortable oh yeah like Mark sitting in the glare of the sun coming through the window you're very

17:30
illuminated but you also look a little uncomfortable no I'm pretty good believe it or not the sun is much it's getting

17:36
higher so we're good I the the the I just thought man that that was just so I

17:41
wish you know what I'm going to take a picture and then the sun came out from behind some clouds when we post this episode I'll uh

17:49
we'll post it with our picture with Jeff exactly it's literally glowing you

17:54
have a glow oh I know I don't have a Halo so other than that we're good

18:00
I mean Jeff does but the sun's right on his head yeah it's going to start

18:06
reflecting on the ceiling though his top quarter inch follicles up there you can definitely you can they're definitely

18:11
all illuminate Halo is yeah yeah that's my that's how I see it I see a Halo

18:17
there you go oh man yeah I think it's important when we're able to recognize that it's

18:23
not always that person over there it's sometimes who I am yeah I want I personally at times want to reject the

18:30
truth because it illuminates the shame that I feel and I think so often it is

18:35
that truth that gives us the freedom to be able to say okay yes this

18:41
is who I am I'm able to face it I don't have to just keep propping up my my

18:47
viewpoint in such a way that you know eventually it's like I have to deny that there is a spiritual realm even you know

18:54
I think we go so far as to say well I'll just be dirt and it doesn't matter

18:59
but yet you know as we as we think about that you know it's just it just seems so

19:04
counter to who we are you know to recognize well there isn't really a spiritual realm and I'm not concerned

19:10
about that but I think you know that's that's that's the extremes we have to go

19:16
to those fallacies if you will it's like really you know is that what you boil it

19:21
back to that it's just U my my life ceases to exist so there again you know

19:27
that brings in the aspect purpose you know and I and I and I just really and I think you know the more we talk about it

19:34
the more we recognize how how important and I appreciate you bringing that God is truth you know to the to the topic as

19:42
far as being able to recognize how truth is such a foundational part of who God

19:48
is and what he desires to share with us in this complexity of

19:54
life so yeah that's my the quote of marks that I

20:00
like is all truth is God's God's truth that's not mine that's not mine that's

20:06
why I I heard it from Mark first and it was specifically in the context of at some point we were talking about having

20:12
Mark teach at CR this is what I remember kind of the original when I heard you

20:18
talk about it U so Mark's also taught at CR which is pretty cool celebrate recovery and um when I approached you it

20:25
was like I think a lot of the things that you deal with counseling or whatever a lot of that training probably

20:30
translates pretty well to the steps and lesson you know of CR and I think that's

20:36
when you kind of said well all truth is God's truth and I was like yes exactly

20:41
like there's stuff that you're learning and learned in counseling school and to become a therapist that are directly

20:49
aligned with the the lessons that we're learning in celebrate recovery and and same with you you know you spoke on

20:56
truth and you brought in math right and so if if math is true that's also God's truth you know if there's truth in the

21:04
schooling that you got for therapy that's God's truth if there's truth in s recovery which is based on the 12 steps

21:10
which is based on Alcoholics Anonymous 12 step like there is so much truth in that well guess what that's also God's

21:16
truth and I'm curious Jeff if you have any thoughts on that in terms of is there truth that doesn't map back

21:24
to God in some way or like how would you how would you define that

21:30
I will admit the first time I heard that phrase all truth is God's truth I immediately said no it's not because it

21:38
it invoked in me images of of postmodernism where someone is saying well it's my truth that something or

21:45
other sure and well obviously that truth doesn't come from God that truth comes

21:51
from a rejection of God but hearing you explain it like that where if we use

21:59
math or if we use science to figure out something that is constantly true that

22:04
is reproducible that is predictable According to some sup not maybe not Supernatural but

22:12
some unseen plan sure then yeah there's only one place that could come from

22:18
within how I see it and that that Source has to be God as as truth sure yeah yeah

22:26
yeah because truth always comes back to some origin right

22:32
like a like you said a plan yeah Authority and yes Authority yeah a higher authority yep

22:39
and that's the thing about atheism Andor Big Bang stuff like it's like if you

22:45
just have to keep going back okay but where' that come from okay but where'd that come from okay but where' that come

22:50
from okay but where did that come from right and there's

22:57
only one way to get to An Origin and that's if you believe in this origin

23:03
right you have to believe in An Origin that supersedes everything yeah no matter what you believe you have to come

23:10
back to An Origin right mhm there's no get there's no escaping origin right

23:16
right and so we just happen to have a very convenient origin it's very well

23:22
defined in a in a Bible called the book and it's been authenticated this origin idea has been authenticated throughout

23:29
history because it's true right but if you don't have that you know then your foundation's built on what like I don't

23:37
I don't know you know and I would I would I think they would say we also

23:42
don't know you don't know I don't know we can't know we're an ant why would an

23:48
aunt know where an ant came from right well if the creator of the world

23:54
came down and said hey Aunt just FYI you were created by me for this purpose you

23:59
know that's how you can know yeah which is pretty cool that he gave us that

24:05
opportunity to to to know our origin you know unlike any other creature we know

24:12
exactly where we came from what the plan was what you know no we don't know at all cuz we are not the originator right

24:20
um I don't know origin is a I think you cannot separate truth from

24:25
origin right like they kind of go hand in hand cuz truth is about going Contin to go back up the authority chain till

24:32
you have a definitive Source origin yeah I totally agree yeah and it's kind of

24:37
like math like like you said you you take your premise and you just work backwards to the origin and if it

24:43
doesn't align with your premise you have to fix your premise and do it again till you get to the origin you go okay we got

24:49
it you know math is I I heard it that math is the fundamental science because

24:57
it it's follow the the scientific method where you start with a hypothesis and then you perform experiments and if you

25:03
don't reach the conclusion that you expected you go back and refine your experiment sure until you either prove

25:09
your hypothesis true or false and what's what's interesting is people still

25:16
reject well okay follows the scientific method but it's not a science but all

25:21
natural sciences do eventually boil down to math if you take if you take biology

25:27
the study of life what does what does biology boil down to boils down to

25:33
chemistry how chemicals interact with each other if you boil chemistry down what are you left with you're left with

25:40
electromagnetic forces because it's the forces behind the particles that do the reacting well if you boil physics down

25:47
what do you have you have math and if you boil math down to its Bare Bones

25:53
constituent Parts you end up with logic if this then that true false and um

26:02
that's why logic is very powerful when it comes to convincing people of of

26:08
opposing viewpoints um getting people to follow their arguments to their logical

26:15
conclusions logic transcends culture it transcends time all cultures on earth

26:23
have logical thinking even though they speak different languages they they have different attitudes it all boils down

26:31
to I don't do this if I know it's false or if I know it's destructive no one

26:37
does that you can think it's acceptable and follow it and then learn later that

26:43
it is destructive but no one intentionally does something that they think or that they that they

26:49
wholeheartedly believe is

26:55
destructive at least how I see it yeah yeah until your mind is given over to a

27:00
certain level of Darkness I mean I I think of suicide as a perfect example right where at that point I know exactly

27:08
what what I'm doing is destructive

27:13
true um I I have dealt with suicidal thoughts and one of the things that I

27:19
remember thinking is yes I will be destroying me but it's better for the

27:24
people in my life and so as as sick and twist as that is and I was in a very

27:29
dark place when I was thinking those things destroying something that needed to be destroyed was better in the long

27:36
run that was that was my thinking it might be different for for someone else a great point but um that's that was

27:43
just my perspective when I dealt with that mhm wow yeah that's I I agree with that

27:51
that makes perfect sense um yeah I think still logic logic only

27:59
works if you're willing to consider that if then then if this then that you know

28:04
but if you're again denial and and evil will want you to cling to something

28:11
that's untrue and therefore deny truth right and and this occurs in

28:19
Mark and Justin and Jeff as well as you know the atheist who's terrible you know

28:25
like or you know whatever the the liberal whatever at some point we get to a point where we

28:30
look at truth and you say nah MH I don't think so because my experience say this

28:35
you know and my experience supersedes truth and that's just again that

28:41
inherent you know for me it's very clear it's our inherent evil nature to follow evil naturally that's our natural bent

28:49
until we have a savior who imparts his holy spirit to say Hey you know that thing you want to do maybe don't do that

28:56
maybe do it my way you know MH and uh that's yeah well it's interesting Jeff I

29:01
appreciate I'm still thinking on um that that dynamic as you boiled it

29:07
down because I from my perspective I I would have switched in that last analogy

29:14
um as you were talking about the sciences and you know it I I would have

29:20
flipped physics and math and and here's where that comes from and I can be wrong of course but

29:27
here's where because I think from my perspective in our culture you know we

29:33
well look at the government and how it does finances okay it doesn't was what I'm

29:42
saying that's your truth man but yeah exactly but yeah it's it it is like I

29:48
see physics as taking other factors into consideration that math doesn't you

29:55
follow me to where and I think our like I'm thinking of it in terms of um like

30:01
global warming we have a formula that says you know this is global warming and

30:07
this happens from my perspective based on math because it's this this formula

30:13
but it doesn't take into effect the physics of all the other factors that are outside of that equation does that

30:21
make sense and and granted I'm I'm willing to recognize that yeah math more fun

30:28
fundamentally may take in all of those dynamics of physics but that's not how

30:34
I've seen it until we've had this discussion in that process of being able to recognize it and it's because

30:40
ultimately physics is you know a a science of math you know angles and and

30:46
impact and vectors and all that stuff the stuff but you it's like and I think so

30:52
often I'm I'm I'm learning from you in that process to recognize that yeah math

30:58
can be more fundamental but I think so often our Viewpoint of what the because

31:04
I think as humans our desire is to operate according to a

31:09
formula and our our tendency is to say this this and this equals that and yet

31:16
there's only so many factors in my formula and life is more complex than that so that's where I saw the

31:23
difference between physics and math from my personal perspective but I'm willing to recognize yeah I agree with you in

31:31
that sense that behind the physics underneath the physics is a math and

31:36
then like you say that that makes the logic more possible as well so yeah I

31:41
appreciate you sharing that because I just wouldn't have I hadn't thought about it from that perspective before

31:46
yeah I I was mostly referring to like the the operations sure so there are

31:52
predictable ways in which physical material you know energy and and interact with each other and we can

31:59
represent those predictable interactions with addition multiplication division

32:05
integrals all those things and um so it's it's the the operational side of

32:11
physics that boils down to mathematics sure in that way yeah no I like to say I

32:16
appreciate that perspective yeah it's almost like the problem is the inversion

32:21
who excuse me so uh when you try and Define physics through a mathematical

32:27
formula it can fall short but you can properly invert that and see the physics

32:34
and then verify it with math but you can't create a math formula and then make physics match it right because you

32:39
can't invert that and I think maybe that's the problem that you're that you're you you were reading about or you

32:46
know about limitations yeah the limitations yeah so you can't you can't

32:51
invert them yeah right I think and I think go ahead even

32:57
to follow that um sometimes we invert logic so we we say if this and that

33:03
first and then we make life follow that you I don't know if that makes sense but

33:08
we come to a conclusion that's incorrect and we kind of invert logic is

33:14
that I don't know maybe that doesn't make sense as I as I say it out loud like maybe that's not right I'm still

33:20
listening I'm still listening stop listening everyone hit stop right now I'm not disagreeing with you yet I'm

33:26
still just deciding I I think I lost my spot but um that's okay Jeff bail me

33:36
out you should see the look he got you guys have that relationship I can't save

33:42
that no I was I was trying to go along with you and I was I was trying to trying to see where you were going did

33:49
you have an example in your mind that you no because ultimately um I think

33:55
what what my thought is we come up with the conclusion and then we live life to

34:01
try and prove it which I think is an inversion of how logic should work right which is um we have to look at our how

34:10
life is based on the truth and we you know so I feel I guess that's kind I was getting as I think sometimes we invert

34:16
that which causes problems and creates those denials and creates the bad Foundation is because we've inverted uh

34:22
how that should work um we've come up with how we want it to be and then we

34:28
build a life based on that instead of saying no what is it actually and then building based on that um and I don't

34:35
think I can quite draw the connection to the math and physics and all that but um

34:40
I'm sure it's somewhat related and that it's truthshocktv

34:58
the 360 Degrees you know it's part and you had your you did your little no offense it was a little Flex there on

35:03
the stage and you you brought out the I didn't even mean it to be a flex like

35:08
when when I wrote that part of the sermon I was not intending to come across as like oh well it it sounded

35:13
like a perfectly good Flex from the stage my intention you know it's like I'm a ma you know this is my formula I'm

35:19
a mathematics major so it's like everybody knew where it was coming or it seemed as if everybody knew where it was

35:26
coming from the the only reason I even called that out is because people started laughing people started laughing

35:31
at the 9:00 service too and I paused for half a second cuz I'm like why are people laughing this is serious I meant

35:38
it totally seriously I didn't I didn't mean it to be a flex at all and then I realized oh maybe it's slightly more

35:45
advanced than people were expecting on a Sunday sermon yeah and of course it was too late to change it and so I I I felt

35:52
at the 11 to to call out like remember I'm a math major and so I

35:58
as a math major I kind of have to I'm obligated to give you the geometric

36:04
definition of a circle sure instead of a you know lay

36:10
person muddled muddied definition of what a circle is and and people laughed

36:15
at the 11:00 too and I'm like oh I'm sorry well I I'll be honest with you Jeff you know what I appreciated most

36:21
about the circle it wasn't so much the formula as much as it you you boiled it

36:27
down to every circle is 360 points and for me that that illuminated truth from

36:35
that sense of that's how we often come at it is from our own individual

36:41
360th of the truth MH and yet God is so much bigger that we just can't

36:47
necessarily see it all the time but that doesn't mean that when I see that

36:55
360th that is part of that whole equation that says yes that whole 360 is

37:01
Gods so any part of that 360 is still

37:06
truth you know what El was fascinating that that from the look on your face I

37:11
recognized that wasn't the intention but it it you if I may you were you were

37:17
bringing it back to the point of we know something based on this formula that says this is what it is yes it's the

37:25
definition yes and that's where if if we follow the definition yes to construct a

37:31
circle yes that is what we have it cannot be anything else um part of the

37:38
look on my face that had you so captivated just now is that I never mentioned

37:44
360°. really I really didn't now now see there again we're going to have to go back to the recorded no I'm just but I

37:52
when you started the circle would okay I'm not defending

37:58
myself here but I I I might not have heard 360 but did like point I I said

38:05
how did you define the beginning of a circle or the definition of a circle is for an arbitrary Point O and distance R

38:12
gotcha a circle is the set of all points within one plane sure such that the distance between o and any point in that

38:19
set yes equals R gotcha yeah Justin's flexing his bicep right

38:25
now and and they're just like the people in in church they're laughing at you you

38:30
mistranslate the Laughing The Laughing is like holy crap that's smart I love it

38:36
yeah what it is and I appreciate you sh because like you say the minute I heard Point that's where I went you went to a

38:43
degree I went to that 360th I'd love to of that Circle take your your point in

38:48
and magnify it too cuz like which is not again it doesn't follow what he was trying to the point he was trying to

38:54
make with the circle thing but the 360 deges you know the thing about a circle

39:00
correct me if I'm wrong there's infinite points on the outside of a circle

39:06
there's not a defined set of points I hear you they're infinite I mean it's

39:11
just mindblowing to me so which when you think of God he's not a flat plane he's

39:17
not a circle it's it's more accurate to make it an orb and now sphere the infinite times infinite right infinite

39:25
time 3.14 or whatever I don't know what whatever the math is Jeff is just he's just very upset with

39:32
that and then you have your pie and you eat it too so uh so if you want to get really mathematical I do Flex Justin

39:40
does so both biceps how how many points are in the circumference of a circle

39:47
contained in one plane well is that pie yeah yeah you had it right in there are

39:53
infinitely many yeah how many points are on on the surface of a sphere it's

40:00
infinite times infinite right like it's the exact same number o how dare you

40:08
well infinite is the same numbers infinite times infinite right well see that that's

40:13
that's the property of infinity infinity multiplied by the same number by any number is it's that little sideways

40:20
eight no matter what infant is infant yeah yeah it's so there there are exactly as many points sideways eight on

40:27
on a circle as there are in a in a sphere you don't have to multiply it by anything but anyway I didn't mean to

40:33
derail the conversation that's good easier to visualize like okay it's not only infinite this way I'm drawing a

40:39
circle but then you rotate it and now it's infinite again rotate again it's it's infinite this in this plane as it

40:45
is this plane you know but again it's the same number except it visually it's

40:51
like no it's just even more infinite yeah you know what say so if it's infinite how does it get divided into

40:58
360 cuz that's the degree that's the amount of clicks from the center I'm curious cuz I think about things in

41:04
degrees I'm a construction person so of course I think about things so yeah that I think that goes back to what the

41:10
Sumerians they were the first they were the first per people to divide a circle

41:16
into or or to divide time by a number of 60 intervals I gotcha I cuz that was

41:25
until this morning that was the first time I'd really thought about about yeah there's a bunch of points yeah but yeah

41:30
I still think about it is like a clock and having 360 minutes in it if you will

41:36
around the clock so but you could divide a circle as many points as you want the clock is an example 12 I agree uh we use

41:43
degrees as 360 but you could go 892 if you wanted right it has to be even

41:49
though right well you could divide seconds into milliseconds and I mean yeah but I

41:55
just yeah I me so point became a degree for me in the midst of your sermon so

42:00
that was that was where I was that was how I've seen it so thanks for sharing that's an interesting perspective that

42:05
that's where your mind went and that's what you remembered even though I never said it yeah that's that's interesting

42:11
and it go it goes back to what you said about how there's we still don't know if you didn't say it so until we have the

42:17
truth the evidence is there no I'm I'm good I'm good with what you said because I'm willing to recognize how I would

42:25
translate a point when you said the word point I automatically thought okay one of 360

42:32
because how often do we hear that you know but I'm yeah I'm also willing to recognize that's cool that in between

42:40
each 360th there's far more parts but yet exactly infinite more right there

42:48
there is no number yeah that's where thees the eight turns out come on Jeff

42:54
stay stick with us here so yes well thanks for sharing that part

43:01
now see this is this is the uh this is the what do you would you call it the B plan no Boll b roll yeah this is the

43:08
this this is the outside the outakes this is the good the outakes of what really happened you know the stuff the

43:15
good stuff Jeff left at home on stuff he thought he didn't say but he actually did but he didn't but that's what you

43:20
heard therefore he said it so this that's you know why coming back to that were there were there any other parts

43:26
that you uh cut yeah just for the sake of

43:32
time uh yes there when I when I've been writing sermons it's pretty much a

43:38
general rule that if I if I preach for 33 minutes I originally wrote enough

43:44
material to preach for 50 to 60 okay so I I'm cutting approximately half of my

43:49
material in order to make time and that's something I never expected I I honestly expected to

43:55
struggle before I started writing sermons I expect it to struggle to fill the time but it's actually a struggle to

44:02
keep myself in time sure which makes total sense now that I've seen so many pastors go over there a lot at 35

44:09
minutes or whatever I'm like it's easy to do it's very easy to do um yeah I I

44:16
talked about um how how important it is to to base

44:21
your life on truth and why why my sermons have been so heavy

44:29
with scripture um because I am not an

44:34
authority my truth is no Truth at all um

44:40
I forget where it says it in the Bible where it says um they've been following a gospel which is no gospel at all and

44:47
in the exact same way my truth is not is no Truth at all and so there there was a

44:53
part I was hoping to be able to include but there there just wasn't time to do it where I I talked about that is the

44:59
reason why my sermons are so heavy with scripture because that's my

45:04
purpose the reason I'm up on stage is to speak truth into your lives and if I'm

45:11
not doing that then I've lost my purpose and if I quote one scripture I know I've

45:17
said at least one thing that's true sure so the more scripture I can quote the

45:23
more Assurance I have that I'm speaking truth sure yeah that's great point I uh

45:31
yeah that's that's amazing um I think often you know you've probably heard this if you

45:38
put this much scripture in it people will fall asleep yes I I have heard that where if

45:45
if all you do is stand up there and read and read read you will put people to

45:51
sleep that's just for the record when you go listen to his message you're not going to encounter that Jeff does a great job

45:57
presenting those scriptures as if he's just saying it himself is is amazing but

46:04
there is truth to that right where if you just stand up and read scripture truth it's still truth but it's not

46:09
going to hit the same if if we just kind of go in the beginning U but uh I guess I was going

46:18
to say often times when I speak I don't I I I'm challenged by what

46:25
you said definitely challenged by it um cuz what I bring to the table is what I

46:30
have is me MH you know and so I'm going to present

46:37
me and trust that the Holy Spirit Works himself through it now that doesn't mean

46:44
I avoid scripture I try not you know that's not that's not the point of what I'm trying to say but like when you

46:49
think of testimonies um very clearly the Bible says that is one of the most

46:55
powerful things we have on on this planet yeah is our testimony is my

47:01
truth when it interacts with big g capital t truth but God truth

47:09
right like when when those things intertwine and that story builds itself my version of the truth versus his and

47:16
how they start to align that has a power

47:21
that stands on its own validated by scripture right like

47:26
the Bible say is um by the word of our what's that testimony by the word of Our Testimony what's the other part of it we

47:32
triumph over the the Devil by the blood of the Lamb blood lamb and the word of Our Testimony yeah and thank thank you

47:39
yes um and obviously it doesn't say and also God's word but that's a no-brainer

47:45
um and it says it many other places in the Bible but there is something to

47:50
almost kind of the opposite of what you said I don't have truth no but I have my story which

47:57
interacts with the truth and God uses that in us when we share a story and

48:03
that's why we include personal elements you know um I don't know what are your thoughts on that J a way of looking at

48:11
that is not necessarily my my story becomes the truth but when I

48:18
apply the truth of God's word to my life my life changes

48:24
yeah yeah and that might have been what you were saying without those words

48:31
that's that's just how how I see it that it's it's not necessarily I make God's

48:38
word True by living a certain way it's that God's word proves itself true when

48:46
I conform my life to it yeah so I saw you as an infinite part of the circle

48:51
Justin oh thank you I appreciate that sadway eight

48:57
yes you were a part of the circle in that moment that this is God's truth in my life in this whole yes this is my

49:03
viewpoint on the infinite plane of of the truth and I think that's the the

49:08
word my I think was the the difference yeah I like that you tied that back in joke joking or not because seriously

49:15
every person I mean we're involved in celebrate recovery and every other week we get a testimony and it's one of an

49:22
infinite number of viewpoints into that orb of Truth which is God right it's it's a a viewpoint but every time you

49:29
get another Point that's another point that you H A View that you have into the truth right so your truth that's why I

49:36
love testimonies so much it's like they build your faith so much because you're

49:41
hearing oh God worked that way whoa oh and this way oh what oh and then the

49:47
opposite way like okay and you're like building this orb of truth of who God is

49:52
through the lens these infinite points on a orb or sphere because it's the same

49:59
number to build out a broader and broader View and knowing that because it's infinite you'll never have all of

50:05
the view mhm because it's the sideways eight but you the more the more points

50:11
you can get the broader view you have of the truth and that's what I love about

50:16
testimonies as AO you know not as oppos but in addition to scripture which is

50:23
specific I don't know even even scriptures are a Viewpoint right like

50:28
they're also points on this infinite sphere because the Bible has how many names of God right hundreds I don't know

50:36
we talk about that we sing about it all the names of God and if we just take one

50:41
of those and say this is who he is you know it's not enough that's why there's so many so they're all viewpoints and

50:48
all these scriptures give us another Viewpoint and so even all of scripture cannot give us unless we spend eternity

50:56
you know know sideways eight spending our time reading these scriptures and hearing the Holy Spirit teach us about it right like I'm using my Justin you're

51:03
a regular mobile this morning you know that thing spinning you got hands flying all the way around in your sphere and

51:08
you're pointing you're a mobile I'm surprised you haven't knocked your microphone over I give you credit with

51:14
all of your gestures got a lot of experience with this bad boy exactly and it started with Rowan and it's just it's

51:20
just ramped up from there the the rest of the people you're not getting my my hand should have been video should

51:27
should have we'll have jet back and video it but you get the point we do and I

51:33
think what I like about what you were sharing is you know as we gain all of these different you know as you listen

51:40
to someone share their testimony from that varied Viewpoint I think there's

51:46
enough similarity to that other person that I can say oh that's very similar to

51:53
what God's doing in my life and I can see that person maybe a little further down the trail

51:59
you know than I've been and that gives me hope yep and you know and then to be able to recognize okay yeah that's God's

52:07
you know process of developing hope is to be able to say okay yeah as I've done

52:12
it in his life basing when or his or her life as they base their life on my truth

52:20
they go on this journey and that journey is possible for you and even as you

52:25
shared Jeff you know that aspect of coming to know that a fuller aspect of the truth was basically what helped you

52:32
overcome the LIE of my life isn't important or you know it's an encumbrance to other people and you know

52:40
it's just it's just neat to see how that truth transformed you know your journey in

52:47
from that dark place yeah as I know I don't want to keep Jeff's super duper

52:53
much longer but I'd love to wrap up with the final question if that of course that's cool with both of you uh which is

53:00
can you draw the line draw a connect because I was going to start talking about it but I this we struggle with

53:06
this right Mark when we get a guest in here we're like used to doing all the talking we're like shut up shut up Justin shut up Justin I say that no but

53:13
I really I think I would love to hear your perspective on this um Jeff the

53:18
connection between truth and hope because it can go the other

53:24
direction like hope is when we you know I would love to hear your you're connecting those dots cuz when I hear

53:31
you speak about truth I hear hope does that make sense this was a a

53:37
point I covered in my sermon where if God is truth and everything he says is

53:43
truth then what should we think when he makes a promise we can count on it sure and

53:52
there worry and doubt though God understands it because he was

53:58
tempted in every way we were it is simultaneously a bit of an affront because he's saying I am truth and I

54:06
promised this would happen and so for you to doubt means you don't believe

54:11
that I am truth you you're you're not accepting my word as you should and and

54:17
so if we if we have the correct perspective that nothing God says is false when he promises to do something

54:23
it will happen we have no reason to doubt we have no

54:29
reason to fear we have no reason to worry it will happen we can count on it

54:34
and God's word promises multiple times that when we turn our faith over to him

54:41
when we turn our lives over to him um in in Deuteronomy Moses said I lay before

54:46
you life or death and I want you to choose life God wants you to choose life

54:52
and if you choose life you can count on these promises to be fulfilled

55:00
and that for you becomes the source of Hope for me that's hope yeah and it's it's not hope in the sense of like oh I

55:06
hope it doesn't rain um we we we've lost yeah we we I think we've lost a

55:12
little bit of what the biblical idea the biblical concept of

55:18
Hope actually means because we've watered it down in Modern English where hope is

55:24
optimism I hope you have a good day well I can't control it I'm just optimistic

55:29
mhm or or or whatever but in the biblical sense when

55:35
when the writer of Hebrew says we have hope in our our coming salvation he's

55:41
not saying we're optimistic he's saying we have confidence based on facts based

55:48
on evidence based on God's IR irrefutable promise an unbreakable

55:54
promise that it will happen M and that's how we're able to live our lives

56:01
Fearless um with with the authority that God says I I'm releasing you into the

56:06
world to go with my authority and be bold for the gospel because we have this

56:13
hope sure confidence yes we have we have that confidence and assurance that God's

56:18
word will be fulfilled yeah well said yes nice job thank you

56:25
Jen you're welcome and thank you thank you not just for that answer but thank you for taking the

56:31
time yeah come on over here and let us make you a little nervous and at you a

56:37
little bit yeah I I don't you guys didn't make me nervous I think it was mostly a self-inflicted thing well I

56:43
tried IED to make you nervous but oh yeah you I tried to assure you that how

56:48
many how many people are going to be subject to execution because that judge was not convinced by the things I said

56:56
we'll get back to you on that oh gosh so yeah thanks thanks for sharing

57:04
yeah really appreciate you uh you joining us yeah thanks for sharing how you invite yeah that's that's how we see

57:12
[Music] it hey thank you for listening to our

57:19
podcast if you like how I see it please do all the things that podcasts tell you

57:25
to do subscribe rate review follow us uh and or talk nicely about us on social

57:33
media if you want to reach out the email is us how I see it.click

57:40
yep I said do click as in c c k please

57:47
tell your friends about this show and we'll see you on the next one

57:53
[Music]