0:00
[Music]

0:06
morning Justin morning Mr Mark how are you sir I'm well yeah doing pretty well

0:11
really I was going to say is this going to be recurring theme

0:17
on the podcast my injuries I don't know don't make me [Laughter]

0:23
smile yeah Justin has a fat lip this morning from Ultimate over the weekend and a and a bruised nose but uh he's

0:30
looking good he's looking good who knew Ultimate Frisbee could be

0:35
something uh dangerous to your health yeah the beauty of it is it

0:42
wasn't like anybody else impacted you you you can honestly say I did this all

0:47
by myself practically well the ground did it too the ground did it yes it was that Zeal to catch the Frisbee and I did

0:56
not but it was still impressive to see it was an impressive dive yep but all

1:02
right we'll stop talking about Ultimate Frisbee someday maybe well when Justin when Justin doesn't get battered or BR

1:10
and bruised it's like H yeah we definitely come in and it's like this is a good thing this isn't a video you know

1:17
we we can come hbling in and right yeah maybe we'll post a picture

1:22
today and Bruise [Music]

1:31
welcome to how I see it with me Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a

1:37
podcast that works to countercultural polarization through thoughtful

1:44
[Music] conversations uh anyway so today we're

1:50
going to talk about something kind of interesting um we're going to talk about what we call user friendly and it's

1:58
interesting because when we first started talking about the idea I was like hey maybe we should do a podcast

2:03
episode on userfriendly and how because if we haven't made it clear yet on this

2:10
podcast Mark has an aversion to Tech and in software I I am having less aversion

2:19
okay as I do I'm I'm learning ironically I'm having more

2:25
so just kidding uh well sort of maybe I don't know as I get older I definitely have you know the inversion grows but

2:32
the point was H one of the reasons that you discussed was like things are just so don't make sense yeah I can I can

2:40
just remember vividly you know and and I think how I see it is impacted but I can

2:46
remember vividly growing up and I was actually at my uncle's one

2:53
time and playing you know a game which was okay and I got too zealous

3:00
you know with the keyboard and he came up behind me and smacked me in the back of the head and said you know don't use

3:08
it so hard and it's like I didn't even really think about but I mean I'll be

3:14
honest that it's like Heck if you can't if you can't play on this thing yeah you

3:19
know and I think I grew up even in the beginning of that era it's like you know

3:25
don't play with it m you know cuz you're going to break it yeah it's something fragile you know and I can remember even

3:31
early on just being able to uh have that fear of if you push the wrong button in

3:38
the wrong order something's going to lock up you know you you know so yeah

3:44
that's where that comes from for me so your earliest memory is a computer smacking you getting smacked yeah

3:51
because I was using it too hard and it's like heck and I'll be honest you know so

3:57
much of the tools that I use today it's like I use them hard yeah and

4:04
I expect a tool to be able to be used hard exactly and still work you know I

4:10
don't you know so I think that's it's just kind of that has become a to where I really do respect you know like my

4:20
iPhone something not not that that's a but you know it's like the things that it does it makes sense and it's user

4:27
friendly to be able to say okay it's kind of intuitive if you will but how's that for pretty intuitive yeah yeah and

4:34
that's uh so interestingly so when we were talking about I like I I could go

4:40
on for hours talking about this because I'm actually a software developer so and

4:45
a big part of my role and my job is to make sure things are software is user

4:52
friendly and uh ironically it's interesting because as

4:58
we were talking you're like yeah I think user friendly can also be this and you started to describe this other version

5:05
of user friendly that I was like that's interesting it doesn't for me it's like

5:11
a different world from what I see user friendly I think buttons and and

5:17
positioning and software and that kind of thing sure and I thought that was it was really fascinating um so I want to

5:23
hear a little bit more about what you were thinking you're like userfriendly is also this can you describe a little

5:29
bit about what yeah talking about and I I think it just comes down to a how I

5:35
see it type thing yeah you know from the in the difference between you and I but when I think of user friendly um it's

5:44
it's kind of irony I'll be honest it's it's not a it's not a positive type term

5:51
but I understand that user friendly can I pause real quick of course when when

5:56
you're saying that are you referring to like this the software like computer side of user friendly or you talking

6:02
about outside of that world I'm talking about outside yeah from my my

6:07
perspective on what you were talking about from a user friendly I think there are

6:13
people okay who tend to allow

6:19
themselves um not always intentionally but more out of patterns and Cycles they

6:25
tend to allow themselves or set themselves up to be used by other people

6:33
so in many cases those people are userfriendly they set themselves up to

6:42
be used by people and and and I and there again I don't see it as a positive

6:49
Dynamic but yet and and you know we have other names for it you know it could be called codependent you know those kind

6:57
of things you know from a you know therapeutic world but it was interesting

7:02
in on that morning when we were talking about that just that the difference that

7:08
our views had of that one word I respect it from a computer type dyn you know

7:15
dynamic but I also recognize that it happens in a personal type dynamic as

7:22
well that there are people and and for me I think part of that comes from you

7:30
know what is my role what what is my purpose if you will and I think you know

7:36
so much of that and um we can put this link in a lot of um

7:41
have you ever heard of Love Languages yes yes uh well Gary Chapman

7:49
yeah I think when you say that I always hear five luming right sure yeah the five love languages sure and we don't

7:56
have to go in not that we couldn't but like you say it becomes and I like the word the use of the word language

8:02
because I think when we understand other people's language it's easier to

8:07
communicate with them yeah and if I don't if in other words if you're speaking a foreign language to me and I

8:14
don't know you're speaking a foreign language to me in other words it can kind of even be like the technological

8:20
aspect yeah I was just yeah go ahead well I think you're right well in

8:26
there's a couple different parts to that right there there is the person speaking

8:31
and whether they're speaking a different language right sure then there's the person hearing and whether they're

8:36
hearing what the person's speaking like there's two sides of that and that ties

8:41
into Love Languages and and you know psychology as much as it does computers

8:47
and the whole idea of like yeah sometimes you design something and you think this is easy it makes sense you

8:53
click the button and you get to the thing and they're thinking the thing should just be there right and so they don't click the button they're scared

8:59
the button the button might smack them in the back of the head right so they they want it to just be there and you're

9:05
like it's so easy what's wrong with you right and it gets Lost in Translation and yes yeah and yet and

9:13
yet this is the big problem with user friendliness on the Internet or the comp

9:19
computers whatever software essentially we try to stick

9:25
with convention because even though we think something might be better or more

9:31
intuitive often it introduces confusion and frustration if it's not the status

9:37
quo right sure uh that's how the it's called a hamburger menu so that the

9:42
little three lines on a mobile phone that represent click this to show a menu

9:48
yep we call that those three lines we call it the hamburger menu cuz FN and meat in the middle whatever I don't know

9:54
where that origin I just always go there when I don't know what I'm supposed to do next so

9:59
the hamburger Mark I didn't even realiz see that's user friendly it is user friendly uh what it's interesting about

10:06
that is like it didn't start user friendly it was three lines in a corner of your screen like why would that

10:12
represent a menu of course you know three lines represents maybe three items and a menu whatever um but at some point

10:19
user experience experts determine this is not the best way to represent a menu

10:25
we should just have a word that says menu in a circle or whatever but it didn't stick people were looking

10:32
for the hamburger oh wow you know what I mean cuz you get these conventions and so we're always trying to make things

10:40
intuitive sometimes trying to break convention sometimes recognizing that doesn't it's just the translation part

10:47
is so difficult and then you might hit the nail on the head for 90% of your

10:52
users but tempers of them are IR rate and they leave and they're so angry you

10:58
made that change and it's like well I think it was a good thing but it sure feels bad yeah you know what I mean so

11:06
yeah tie that back in Mark come on no I I I'm happy to I think um the the the

11:14
difference okay is I don't think our

11:19
menu as people or individuals is so

11:24
readily accessible as it is on our phone screen you follow me and I think a lot

11:31
of it comes down to self-awareness knowing who I am knowing

11:37
you know and I and I here again I'll come back to the languages piece because

11:44
I like you were saying about um technology advancing to a certain degree

11:50
um I think part of that I'm here here I'm tieing I'm trying to tie it together

11:55
comes if it breaks apart it's okay well part of it is I see who I am with my

12:01
love language I'm the epicenter of normal okay the way I love is

12:10
normal okay it's what I'm used to I mean I don't think you're that normal Mark

12:15
well and I'm not normal I'll put those air quotes around it that we do

12:22
here maybe that'll be in the picture my nose with the scar and us doing air

12:27
quotes but from my perspective I'm normal yeah from your

12:35
pers from my perspective of you if you're something different right then

12:42
you're the one that's weird or strange and I think this is where we get lost in

12:47
sometimes our polarization because instead of you being different and me being able to

12:53
value and learn from that I tend to see you as wrong

12:59
and and really and love languages is a great analogy because we can say okay no

13:06
you're just speaking a different language and we can look at language and we can respect people who are

13:14
bilingual or know more than one language you know because it almost has a sound

13:21
of intelligence to it or experience to it so you know in that process we can

13:28
recognize that yeah languages can be respected yeah and even

13:35
with their differences and I think I and I I bring the five law languages up

13:40
because you know most people are aware of them yeah can you give uh maybe not

13:47
all five but even just one right sure sure like that because there might be some that aren't aware of it and so

13:53
what's what's a love language yeah a love language there's five of them um I'm going to go with quality time okay

14:01
that's a person you don't necessarily have to do much with them um but they

14:08
want your presence they like the adjacent right yes they want to know

14:14
that you like being with them you want to be their companion it's not about

14:20
what you do it's about the fact that you are willing to join them in in just join

14:28
them right okay they could be making a sandwich for the kids and you standing there would be would be depositing in

14:35
their emotional being sure right yep and I and I think and you bring up a good example okay in that process your

14:42
companionship but another one would be acts of service which if I'm making this

14:47
sandwich you know for you that's an act of service so that's another love

14:53
language uh you're going to have to give me your fingers quality time yep gifts I'm just trying to not you don't have to

15:00
do them all but some examples even gifts is another one small gifts even can it could be a pebble that you pick up or a

15:07
piece of you know a special rock that you pick up someplace else that says hey I was thinking of you in this moment

15:13
it's not you know always diamond rings I'm sure they're helpful too but but it's that aspect that I was thinking of

15:20
you okay and a token of my thought about you just to just to confirm that even

15:26
though we're apart you were still on my mind yeah and one thing I really like

15:32
about that whole book and its its thoughts is that um the everyone has these Love Languages

15:40
some speak one of them more fluently than others but they might have some variations right like sure I recall um

15:49
but what happens right is when we love that way we often with that when we

15:55
don't examine how we are uhuh we often expect love that and so we if if our

16:02
highest version of love to us is gifts gifts given then it's very likely that

16:08
the people we love we will give them gifts to show our token of love right yep because it's important to us yes and

16:16
it may be completely mistranslated MH because that person may

16:21
have the the the uh language of physical touch so I'm giving them a gift and it

16:29
they're looking at me and saying buying you off yeah what's this for what's this

16:35
for and you know it and there again it gets lost in the translation because

16:40
I've just given a gift based on my language to someone whose language is

16:46
physical touch they're looking for a hug they're looking for me to put my arm or rub their back or something like that

16:52
it's just that's who that's how they're designed and and physical touch is different than quality time even though

17:00
we might be able to be together you know it just there's these nuances like language you know that

17:06
we're we're not often aware of so it gets lost in the translation so and I

17:14
think that's where I come back to um so in that process of the Love

17:20
Languages there's a book called How We love and that refers to love styles

17:29
okay and I say that based on the fact that it's based it's it's brought up or

17:36
it's the premise for it is out of attachment Theory okay so attachment

17:42
theory is from my perspective huge when we're especially talking about kids you

17:50
know and and I think you know everybody's heard of rad you know reactive attachment disorders or

17:55
something no okay not heard of Rad Rad I mean I've heard the word rth okay uh

18:02
rad reactive attachment Disorder so what happens with kids especially well and

18:09
this is where I come from uh foster kids um kids who have experienced

18:15
abandonment those kind of things okay um the name when somebody is on that far

18:23
perimeter of you know having been almost abused or abandoned

18:29
okay so what looks as if it is um

18:36
secure okay to you and I or so it's become mistranslated to that child and

18:44
therefore in that security they can become reactive

18:50
because it's different than the abandonment or what they

18:56
experienced as love you follow me so when so I'm just going

19:02
to use I'm not describing anyone only a circumstance okay so a child who grew up

19:09
in this chaotic environment okay and then they are

19:16
removed from their home and taken into a hopefully you know secure environment

19:23
healthy healthy will it will it will be very difficult for them to adjust

19:29
because it's not user friendly to this yes precisely it's it's it's anything but

19:37
and I don't always know how to make that transition yeah from chaotic to

19:45
secure and that's where attachment Styles comes into play because there's

19:51
this there's this process okay there I got to we I'm trying I want to try and

19:58
make this um it's important to understand okay there's intrinsic memory okay so before

20:07
I have language okay my memory is intrinsic

20:12
it's in there but it's it's wired you follow me it's it's like a it's like a

20:18
foundational Dynamic that I operate off of but I couldn't necessarily describe it to you because it was developed

20:25
before I had language so similar that kind of instinct like ins yes yes great

20:32
analogy thank you so after I develop language my memory becomes

20:38
extrinsic so that's why you know most people have a difficult time remembering

20:43
Early Childhood those kind of things because there was no language to

20:49
compartmentalize and file it okay does that make sense and that and that's why

20:56
even um but prior to language there's so much

21:03
bonding that happens with children and parents you follow me especially I'll

21:10
I'll just be honest especially you know what comes to mind for me is like the nursing process yeah because there's

21:16
this whole hormonal biochemical process that goes along with that nursing with

21:23
that mother nursing her child there's this eye to eye contact there's this close proxim

21:29
there's touch there's yes there's smell transfering yeah exactly there's all and

21:35
it there again all the five senses are back in our primary function so those

21:42
things so when we experience trauma it to pause real quick yeah the only other

21:50
time where we have that close of an experience as humans is sex true where

21:56
we're also transferring where you're connect or all those things and just think about how transformational that

22:03
experience is yeah and I it's just I mean not to be crude not be crude but

22:08
just thinking about how fascinating those two elements are in terms of the

22:13
connection right and the bonds that are generated and created yeah yeah and I

22:20
and that's a great I'm I have no problem with you going there in that process of

22:26
understanding where this use user friendly Dynamic can come from CU if we

22:32
want to translate that from Child Early Childhood into

22:37
adulthood okay not to be crude again but people who tend to be userfriendly are

22:44
going to traffic in the realm of sex you follow me so I'm just using you to meet

22:51
my need mhm you follow me and here again not a desire to be crude but a a desire

22:58
to understand MH where this user friendliness comes from it's this desire

23:05
to have this connection and yet it's empty or it it

23:12
doesn't fill the void that I'm looking to fill does that make sense so when we

23:18
look at that user friendly across the board so I'm going to come back to that

23:24
attachment style in such a way that says okay I'm going to um break it down to need

23:33
okay we were just talking about the nursing child okay so we have this this process I have this experience in the

23:40
back of my brain it it's basically where flighter fight mechanisms come from okay

23:46
okay it's called primary function MH and that's where all my senses are tied in

23:52
so if we if we take it back to adulthood okay um the person who experiences PTSD

24:00
a near-death circumstance okay what they after that moment of near death okay all

24:09
in in that moment I should say of near death all those five senses that we just described in the nursing child are still

24:17
activated so my hearing my smell my sight are all connected to this part of

24:24
my brain that's very strong and designed to keep me alive it's very strong but

24:31
it's not necessarily very smart you follow me so when I when I

24:38
smell that same smell when I hear that same sound that part of my brain goes

24:47
into goes to work basically trying to keep me alive MH and that's the same as

24:56
in that child as it is the the adult you know the soldier as it is the rape

25:03
victim those kind of things this is this is how we're

25:08
wired yeah and it works both ways where

25:14
I think if I understand you correctly the pts experience trigger something

25:19
strongly there to where anytime that thing is re represented sure so it sounds fire works at the Fourth of July

25:26
sure fir works at the fourth of July it's that part of my brain says

25:32
explosion loud noises it's like I'm here I'm and see that's the thing with trauma

25:39
trauma never sits down on the timeline you follow me we can talk about things

25:44
in a timeline when I went to kindergarten da da when I went to first grade da da timeline but any moment that

25:52
I experienced a trauma on that timeline it won't sit down so when whenever I

25:58
experience that that's why we that's why we have what we call triggers MH okay so whenever I experience that it's and you

26:06
talk with people about it they'll say it was like it just happened that's why it

26:12
never sits down on the timeline and it's like it just happened because that part

26:18
of my brain has been wired to keep me alive and therefore when I hear that sound when I smell that smell and it and

26:25
I and I I I just have such an appreciation for

26:31
our senses when I talk with people who have been abused and the things that

26:38
they tell me that trigger them you know the smell of men's cologne the you know

26:45
the sound of a car door shutting you know screeching tires these kind of things it's it's it's

26:52
like I'm I'm amazed at how um in tune our senses are are to be able to pick up

27:00
on these things all the time and yet we're not overwhelmed in the moment

27:05
right but yet it's all still recorded to a certain degree it's it's got a soundtrack you know that kind of so I I

27:12
don't want to get too far off the subject well go ahead POS question pause

27:18
I think partly too like that it goes both ways in the sense of trauma and like PTSD type of thing but also the

27:25
Comfort side of things like kind of kind of like what you're saying about that nursing experience and when something

27:31
brings you back to a place of comfort we can tend to latch on to it the inverse

27:37
right and that's kind of where some addictions can start we talk about user friendly and looking for love in all the

27:43
wrong places that kind of thing yep we're often we're we're seeing a connection to something that brought us

27:49
comfort and so we're chasing it and then it you know it's like you said it continues to fall short but in the m in

27:56
the me in the in the short term sure it's connecting that dot to that place

28:01
in our brain that says hey this means this okay get it you know yes right yes

28:06
or vice versa with traumas this means this run right that fight or flight I

28:12
guess right it's a fight ORF flight type mechanism attachment because and here again I'm going to come back to that in

28:18
that process um because as I mentioned

28:23
um primary function MH is is strong but but not real smart yeah executive

28:30
function okay if I can keep that online okay that's smart but not real

28:37
strong so my executive function can be overridden by my fear by my flight or

28:44
fight mechanism but if I can continue to keep my executive function online I can

28:50
say oh that's right today's the 4th of July it's not the same as that you

28:56
follow me and it becomes part of the learning that needs to take place to be

29:02
able to understand and and kind of combat some of that primary function

29:09
that goes on but I think what happens is we have to be able to recognize that there is that connection to be able to

29:15
recognize when I'm losing it and what I need to do and um I guess I I just

29:20
feeling a desire to be sensitive too to anybody that you know has experienced trauma I'm not trying to make this light

29:27
this is just kind of a uh schematic yeah of how I see it you know so when I'm

29:33
talking about people smelling things I don't want to trigger anybody but I mean we're talking about this in a schematic

29:40
process um just sensitivity to that and then so here we go I'm going to come

29:45
back to attachment okay so in that how we love okay

29:51
everyone has needs every child there is no perfect parent from my perspective

29:56
God's the only perfect par parent okay so no matter how well I parent I am not

30:03
going to be able to meet all of the needs of my children no offense to you you will not be able to meet how dare

30:10
you exactly and I you know and so often you know in my world of sorts it and I

30:17
and I understand where it's come from you know we want to blame at times the desire is to blame something on my

30:25
parents you know they made no that's not what I'm going that's not where Mark Pratt comes from okay we're adults now

30:32
we've had this this experience and now it's time for me to take responsibility

30:37
for what is mine okay because my yes my parents were imperfect people just like

30:43
I'm going to be an imperfect parent as well and I think you know so so I'm not this isn't about blame but we all come

30:51
out of this um experience with

30:58
these these unmet needs okay so I'm going to break it down to kind of if you picture a need I draw a circle at the

31:05
top with need in there and then I'd bring two lines down to my right and to my left okay so if my need is answered

31:14
with a yes routinely yes okay below that yes I draw another line with a circle

31:20
that would kind of represent security or the ability to explore and learn so

31:27
picture a toddler okay they're they your toddler even um

31:32
you're growing up they're you're you're routinely in a safe environment you see them kind of they've gained their

31:39
Mobility You' seen them kind of amble out of the room and you kind of stay

31:44
where you are but you're aware and suddenly you kind of see them Meander back okay now if they come running back

31:52
if you hear a loud bang they may come running back you follow me because what

31:58
they're doing is they're learning to develop security they're being able to go off on their own the world's a safe

32:05
environment that you've provided kind of within your home they're able to Glow explore and then they come back now if

32:12
something happens while they're out there the world may be defined a little differently because now oh my goodness

32:18
this is an unsafe place so like when we transition to daycare okay this is UN

32:25
this is foreign this is unusual so there's going to be some crying and nashing of teeth if you will that

32:30
basically says I don't like this this doesn't feel secure this is change that makes sense so that's what

32:37
we're talking about is this secure attachment now if we go over to the other side where we've come down from

32:44
needs there's a circle I'd write a circle there where the the instead of yes the answer is no okay well no come

32:53
becomes a little more complicated because no can be answered one of two two ways it's either um yeah

33:03
routinely oh there's a word for it it's either consistently no or

33:11
inconsistently no you follow me yeah yeah you're already tracking with me

33:18
okay so if the no is consistent okay then I'm going to likely

33:25
grow up avoidant because there's no need to go to that parent structure if you will

33:32
because my needs are just overwhelming them whether they are caught up in their

33:38
own substance abuse whether they just are overwhelmed by work or you know

33:46
single Parenthood you know it's like there just isn't enough bandwidth to be

33:51
able to meet the need of a child because I'm just struggling to meet my own needs

33:57
okay there's a variety of Dynamics where it could be consistently no but

34:05
typically that individual that child is going to learn to

34:12
circumvent that desire to need because there's no there's no purpose there

34:17
right you follow me so they're going to avoid going to that person okay when you

34:24
have a need you avoid yes quote Source yeah you avoid and you

34:30
learn and you basically learn to entertain yourself or do it on your own type thing pull myself up by my own

34:37
bootstraps type thing you follow me yep when we go over to the other part of no

34:44
that is inconsistent okay we can recognize how that has its own set of Dynamics as well

34:51
I'm typically that child is typically having to perceive

34:58
when is a good time because they don't necessarily know so they have to kind of

35:03
if you will read the Tea Leaves of the moment and say okay is now a good time

35:08
or is now not a good time okay oh I've seen that look before I'm not asking

35:15
now oh okay Dad came home gave Mom a hug now

35:20
might be a good time okay and I'm not saying it's always that simple but it's in so the incon

35:28
consistent okay tends to lead to anxiousness MH you follow me CU I'm

35:34
never quite sure I'm not I'm I'm the opposite of secure I'm I'm anxious and I'm having to

35:42
kind of perceive what's going on when when couples are having issues with

35:48
communication there we go with air quotes again it's going to be likely around that because I've

35:55
learned to perceive receive your tone your body language more than I'm

36:03
respecting or hearing the words you're using or the words the body language and

36:09
tone are in congruent with the words you're using right so therefore I'm

36:14
going to automatically go with my perception over what you're saying you

36:20
follow me does that make sense it does yeah so that's that's where this is the the foundation okay but if we take those

36:29
different the the level of security the avoidant and we take the anxious or or

36:35
clingy would be some terminology that people might use there the premise between and how we love is that we would

36:42
develop five love Styles okay out of that out of that and

36:50
I'll just start kind of with the order avoider is going to be one of those love

36:55
Styles pleaser is going to be another love style

37:01
vacillator is going to be a third love style and then you're going to have victim and controller or controller and

37:09
victim as another love style not grouped together but their own individual ones

37:14
two ends of a spectrum if you will okay so the premise becomes that each person

37:21
and it's not that like Love Languages which we tend to understand it's not that a person is just one or the other

37:30
but you're going to you're going to have a leaning towards one of those styles

37:36
are you going to have another little like like uh anagrams would call Wings or you know yes it's very possible okay

37:45
so I'm going to just give a a real quick synopsis of each style so the avoider

37:52
okay we can picture what they grew up in okay now the avoider isn't necessarily

37:57
looking to avoid people the avoider is looking to avoid

38:04
emotion okay now you think about it in that process of well if I may I'm not

38:10
not you specifically but I think it guy comes to mind

38:16
okay it's not about it's not about feelings and emotions it's about facts

38:23
what do you need you know in a that I can fix what can I fix for you what's

38:28
broken no I don't want to know how you feel about it I just want to know what I

38:34
can fix what's wrong and see the avoider when we think about what they grew up in

38:40
it's easy to see that they learn to grow up entertaining themselves so their lens

38:48
if you will tends to look at things from a pragmatic perspective okay so in

38:55
relationship they can tend to to look at that person that has a need coming to them and saying are you kidding me why

39:04
can't you just entertain yourself like I entertain myself you follow me that's

39:09
that's the lens that that person has not that it can't change not that there

39:14
isn't room to but that's the premise behind their love style okay does that make sense as an

39:22
okay and that's I I'll leave it at that but there's there's a lot more to it but for the sake of time it makes sense is

39:28
that I'm like scratching my chin and we can all recognize that emotions can be difficult

39:38
it's not like they have handles problems typically have handles I I go here I

39:43
grab a hold this i' I'd move this to there like a puzzle I know how to put it

39:48
together emotions don't always have that they're a little more nebulous yeah I I

39:54
mean and the same emotion can come from two different positions right so and so

40:00
solving the emotion with that came from this can be disastrous if theot the same

40:05
emotion came from this direction right sure and that and that's kind of that that process of here again it's about

40:12
learning I grew up learning that emotions were kind of this dangerous

40:19
place yeah you follow me because when I brought my emotion to that person that

40:25
couldn't meet that need I it just got worse it got it became more chaotic yeah

40:31
you follow so emotions who needs those but that's what's at the basis of that

40:37
when we think about attachment style can I come to you with this need or this

40:42
desire you know I need is kind of sometimes I'm not going there but you know we can well it's not like it's not

40:50
like air and it's not like you know food and water or shelter type thing but no

40:56
in some ways this we're talking about attachment so what I need to attach either way coming back to

41:03
pleaser the pleaser is is just like it is and you know it it comes back to that

41:09
point of I want to please you I want to be I want you to think I'm a nice guy

41:16
and therefore I'm going to treat you like I'd like to be treated and my

41:22
expectation is that you will treat me the same way okay

41:27
and so when we think about pleaser their desire is to please now granted a

41:33
pleaser may not always be when I when I think of Pleasers ultimately I think of

41:39
contractors okay from my perspective it's very difficult for a contractor to

41:45
say no they they will routinely say yes I can do that yes I can do that yes I

41:50
can do that oh yes I can be there in two weeks yes I can be there tomorrow and

41:56
the process becomes eventually that tends to lead towards not that they're

42:01
dishonest but my overc commitment and saying yes to everyone to please them

42:08
tends to lead to dishonesty ultimately somebody gets a

42:15
no whether I wanted to or not they get a no you follow me and it's just about

42:23
that desire and here again this is at time times what and and Pleasers are

42:29
another one of those individuals who are going to be continually perceiving you follow me because that

42:37
that's how they know what the right answer is they kind of follow the

42:43
trail and okay I've seen that look that means you're pleased with me I'll continue in that vein when in some ways

42:51
I maybe I should take a left instead of to going right where you know I think

42:56
you want to go because that's actually counter to who I am and that's and that

43:02
this is where we start to set up that userfriendly Dynamic yeah because I'm

43:08
putting myself in that position to create that desire to meet that need

43:16
Within Me of pleasing youh you follow me yeah and that becomes the lens that I

43:22
tend to look at life through making sense so my desire is to

43:29
just be kind to other people and hoping they will be kind to me CU that's what makes sense and I'm not always the

43:36
pleaser just like the avoider isn't necessarily always in touch with their emotion and won't have a really good

43:42
emotional vocabulary to even describe how they feel okay the pleaser will tend

43:48
to operate out of that perception and won and will tend to think maybe more in

43:54
their own mind before they are actually even communicating it does make sense that so as as we

44:01
think about these different styles relating to one another it it becomes

44:07
very similar to Love Languages and it and it sets people up sometimes in that

44:13
anxiety to be user friendly in a quote unquote type world the next one is um

44:23
vacillator vacillators um vacillators tend to be intense people

44:32
okay and what happens is you think a vacillator I think of the sine wave you know yeah roller coaster Okay roller

44:38
coaster is how it'll typically be described you know um because a vacillator

44:44
um it is it is vacillators have this ability to create expectations in their

44:52
own mind okay but the problem becomes it's never as good good as they thought

44:58
it would be they have they have elevated it in their mind to the point that we're

45:05
going to do this we went to the zoo think of a child okay we went to the zoo that was a

45:13
wonderful experience everybody was laughing there was cotton candy there was you know and we were talking and you

45:19
know there was these smells in the air and it was just it was just wonderful so

45:24
can we go to the zoo again tomorrow no you ungrateful child what's the matter with you you think money grows on trees

45:31
you know that becomes but yet there was such and and when we think about sexual

45:37
relationships you know those kind of things this attachment there's this tremendous desire for closeness and

45:45
attachment okay and Mark's got his hand in the air and at like the top of a roller exactly describing that's where

45:53
those expectations have gone okay ch ch CH the top and and and it's like that

46:00
it's like one block Builds on top of another oh and then we can do this and then if we did this and wow that would

46:07
excitements building the int the expectations building exactly all in that person's mind because it's not

46:14
always necessarily communicated right okay this is what makes vacillators wonderful Visionaries they can they can

46:20
be tremendous Visionaries to be able to say okay what if we did this and we do this and then if we did this and that

46:27
that would be amazing you follow me and in a from a from a business type

46:32
perspective we can recognize that person could have tremendous value the problem in the relationship tends to be okay my

46:39
expectation wasn't met so now what happens I Plum it okay that's the

46:46
vacillator so it's rarely as good as I expect it to be but it's rarely as bad

46:53
as I think it is you follow me and that's that's so the vassel reaction yes

46:59
because we can't go to the zoo every day but yet that in my heart that's my

47:04
desire yeah and we can understand how that makes it difficult for that person as an adult going I you know I have

47:11
these expectations and I have these goals I have these dreams these Visions but yet

47:18
I never seem to quite make it and it's difficult for the vacillator if they get to

47:25
75% okay you know they just they just didn't make it yeah so at that point if

47:31
I'm only at 75% I'm a loser when in reality no you hit 75%

47:38
that might even be 25% higher than the average person would get to you've

47:44
exceeded a level that is quote unquote normal you've you've exceeded your peers

47:52
but yet it's not as good as you imagined as you imagined it would be be and what's interesting too is that uh I I I

48:02
think there can be a tendency to that height to be envisioned to be higher each time

48:08
right so it's like last time we went to the zoo and you package your memories in this ideal format you forget the the

48:15
part where you threw up in the trash can you know you forget the part where you dropped your ice cream cone on the

48:20
ground right yeah and you only remember the good things and you're like it's going to be that plus this other thing

48:26
I'm going to do and the heights just get higher and higher and higher so now 75% that you reach 75% you're

48:33
disappointed but you're still 25% higher than the last time you went right like yes there's that it becomes idealized

48:40
yeah yes in our minds to where ideally we could do this this and this and so

48:47
that that becomes the work in some ways for the vacillator is to be able to find

48:53
this okay yeah contentment this contentment and to be able to minimize

48:58
the highs and the lows yeah because my success doesn't Define who I am okay

49:06
failure isn't travesty yeah I'm not I'm not I'm not worthless because I've

49:12
failed no I'm learning how to do things differently and failure is part of that

49:19
process and we can understand how over time that person may Co May tend to head

49:25
towards depression or you know those kind of things because it's like well crap why bother yeah if I can't do it at

49:32
that level why bother yeah no that's not always the case yeah so is that making

49:39
sense that absolutely and left unchecked or started in a really unhealthy manner

49:45
is probably what contributes to some bipolar disorder is that right or no

49:51
um I'm I'm thinking I'm bipolar because I'm my one of my pet peeves is our are

49:59
um our misuse of the terminology based on uh diagnosis okay that's that's where

50:08
this is a polarizing topic it is it is when know when because we tend to irony

50:14
of the word we tend to yes for me it's like I think of you know brain chemistry

50:20
and how a person tends to experience you know this this manic State and then they go to major depression

50:27
you know on a we can kind of almost um schedule it we know that cycle you know

50:36
that is a that is tending to be bipolar you follow me from a from a brain chemistry point of view we can kind of

50:43
recognize okay I'm coming into my manic stage and I'm about to crash into my major depression that's how I view

50:50
bipolar but bipolar has also become what I would describe um

50:57
as emotionally reactive so a person who comes into a

51:04
circumstance or experiences something and suddenly becomes mad is not

51:09
technically bipolar gotta because it's circumstantial right but that that

51:16
abrupt anger or rise and then the the the fall that comes after that the the

51:22
you know I I'm sorry I didn't you know da da da da da you know if you will the abuser you know that

51:30
that high anger that no that's that's emotionally react that's emotional reactivity not bipolar gotcha that's

51:38
that's my theoretically that's interesting yeah and that's yeah thank you no problem because we do that

51:44
narcissism is another word it's basically a selfish it's come to represent a selfish man yeah but you

51:51
know narcissism I'm a narcissist exactly am yeah yeah selfish man uh also a

51:58
little narcissistic I do like talking about myself Mark well there you go and

52:04
take it for what it's worth you know and that's so that's where the the cultural

52:10
definition versus the theoretical definition that's kind of

52:15
where I just tend to traffic and yeah that's so how many Love Languages have

52:21
he hits so far three right three out of five yes and it's a avoider yep

52:28
uh needy except you had another word for it when we when we think of uh I think

52:35
when I think of the Bible I think of the difference between Martha and Mary yeah

52:41
like servant server well and and there's a difference between being a

52:47
peacekeeper and a peac maker I see Pleasers as then that's the person that

52:53
as as the peacee keeper yeah they're not necessarily wanting to make it they just

53:00
want to keep it you follow me they want every they want every thing to be happy

53:06
everybody needs to be happy yeah yeah kind yeah and we don't we don't

53:12
necessarily they want to deal with the is a maintenance not a fixing like right

53:17
status quo right yeah yeah sure so you got avoider you got pleaser and then

53:22
vacillator yes right and then there's you said two more yeah all right and and and those those ones for uh for the sake

53:29
of our time will be probably a little quicker in the process of controller and

53:36
victim okay they're basically two ends of the same Spectrum the controller grew

53:42
up in that chaos so did the victim okay the pro the difference is

53:49
what they took out of it okay so the victim will basically say yeah I deserve

53:55
that it's it's my fault and they take on so when you can see a pleaser that grew up in a victim you know that TI that

54:03
pleaser you they're going to tend towards that userfriendly Dynamic it's my fault okay yes I deserve to be hit I

54:11
made you mad no that's not even close that's not even accurate you follow me

54:17
and then the controller now a controller will tend to use anger to motivate

54:24
people okay because there desire is to be and so either I am making I'll use my

54:30
anger to move you in the direction I want you to move or to just get you out of my life yeah one or the other and

54:38
it's about that control because I grew up in this in my mind I grew up in this

54:43
chaos and I'm not going back there so therefore I will control most try strive

54:51
to control most things that which are people in my life

54:56
and I'll typically use anger to do it yeah we talked about this a little bit

55:02
in the power powerless episode the idea that you know they they grew up like you said a

55:09
chaotic environment and power represented being on top of the food chain and so that they they're going to

55:15
claw their way to the top no matter what because that represents safety to them that's exactly right that's what where

55:21
the victim safety represents lying dead on the floor or like you know playing dead kind of thing and and I'll I'll

55:28
typically I quite often use safety because so often safety is a learned

55:36
mechanism it safety isn't always synonymous with

55:43
healthy yeah you follow me yeah so I have to relearn what healthy

55:49
relationship is to avoid the userfriendly dynamic MH and I have to re

55:56
learn what control is to have healthy reciprocal

56:02
relationship to where my anger can motivate but it's out of a righteous

56:09
motivation a desire to see change in a in a way that makes it

56:15
better not just my way I want to

56:21
promote revolution in a positive Dynamic that offers free

56:27
and I use my anger in that way not in a way that offers or creates bondage for

56:33
someone else to my out of fear a b yeah so like you say that's love

56:40
Styles um I can I can put a link there and actually when we do this um I'll put

56:46
a link um they have a love Styles test cool that you can go in and you answer

56:53
15 questions and you know and and people people can do that and they can research

56:58
more of you know of Love Styles because I think when we understand our love

57:05
style it helps me understand myself and other people yeah so I learned that I

57:11
have a positive and a negative Dynamic to that desire to please to that you

57:18
know that up and down to I'm a you know yeah I just it's it's speaking of you

57:25
know polarizing topic like um personality quizzes uh yeah stuff like

57:31
that they all kind of they can be polarized in the sense of like don't Peg me and we've talked about that exact

57:36
don't pige and we also use the word spectrum a lot yeah and we use

57:42
perspective a lot and the whole point of those tests the love style tested is to

57:48
give you a better sense of your perspective yes they're a tool yeah a tool exactly and I think they can become

57:55
polarized when we're worried that they're predictive or or tempting to be predictive and you think you can Peg me

58:01
or whatever they're not most of the good ones and at least the people who use them properly that's not the intention

58:07
the intention is better understanding and better perspective not my view but

58:14
how you see it Mark exactly you know and I'm able to rep recognize how I see it affects how I think you see it exactly

58:21
you don't see it how I think you see it and that's where conversation and Rel relationship exactly and but and the

58:29
interesting part of that is when I understand who I am and I understand who you are I'm better able to understand

58:36
the cycle that our relationship creates this reacting to one another creates a

58:44
cycle when I take ownership of my part I can be responsible or responsive versus

58:52
reactive and that changes the entire cycle yeah that's stop the hamster wheel

58:57
exactly yeah that's yeah it's good so that's how I see it that's good thank

59:02
you Mark uh uh yeah looking forward to the next time we yeah chat look forward

59:08
to it and if you guys have questions about any of this we'd love to have your comments whatever yeah just you know you

59:16
can post on any of our Facebook Instagram Twitter whatever on our website um we'd love to hear from you

59:23
and we'll put that link up there that's right all right have a good [Music]

59:31
one hey thank you for listening to our podcast if you like how I see it please

59:38
do all the things that podcasts tell you to do subscribe rate review follow us uh

59:45
and or talk nicely about us on social media if you want to reach out the email

59:51
is usow I see it.click yep I said dot click as in c c k please tell

1:00:02
your friends about this show and we'll see you on the next one

1:00:08
[Music]