White Blank Page (ENCORE!)

Mark and Justin are taking a break from recording new episodes this week, so we’re bringing you an encore presentation of one of our most meaningful conversations from the archives – “White Blank Page.”

In this episode, Mark and Justin dive into overcoming perfectionism and approval addiction. They talk honestly about surrendering unhelpful thoughts, learning from failures, and realigning priorities based on identity in Christ rather than external validation.

Tune in to re-listen to the insightful discussion between Mark and Justin in this classic episode as we highlight the archives while the hosts take a brief recording hiatus. We look forward to bringing you new episodes again soon!


{guitar} Oh, it’s a practice.

It’s a practice when I feel myself becoming overwhelmed.

It’s a mental exercise.

It’s a mental exercise.

So, talk that through with me.




If you want me to know.

No, it’s all good.

I was thinking about it from the aspect of the, uh.



when In the process of a week I typically see myself as having certain things that I want to accomplish and then there’s at least three or four areas that I’m trying to accomplish things in simultaneously So in that process I can start in on Monday thinking about Those things and Monday is okay, but when I get to Wednesday Because on Monday The week is gonna be a great week.

Yeah, it has the ability.

I’m gonna do this I’m gonna do this and I’m gonna accomplish this but then by Wednesday, there’s a certain reality that starts to set in Welcome to how I see it with me Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations It’s I am or I am not gonna be able to accomplish I have accomplished or maybe whether came in Circumstances change I couldn’t get the keys for that job or you know this thing didn’t line up and not even anything that’s necessarily my fault or within my control.

Just circumstantial.

It’s a reality.

Because we are our future Justin is the best version of Justin.

The most efficient, the most thoughtful, the most productive, the least impacted by you know ultimate frisbee injuries.



And so we’re often planning with future Justin or future Mark.


And so the week looks really good from that angle.



And then by Wednesday though for me, their cast just is really, man.

No, but Wednesday I’m starting to recognize I may not have accomplished all of those things in all of those areas.

And I’m starting to my mind is starting to become a little more conflicted confused so for me I Come back and that’s where the blank slate that will you know white paper comes in treated like Monday No, I just I just I just wipe it all off I wipe it all off in my mind and in that moment There’s a piece because I’ve been able to recognize that maybe I wasn’t intended to do quite all of those things.

And there’s a piece that says, “Okay, you’re not solely responsible for all those things.

you’re not even possibly able to do all of those things.

But yet, I can start adding back.

Once I wipe it clean, I start with who I am.

Okay, I start putting back on.

Okay, I am a Christ follower.

I am a husband to Chris.

I am the father of John and Lizzie.

I am a therapist.

I am a podcast host, co-host.

And as I prioritize who I am, that helps me reestablish what I need to accomplish on Wednesday.

You follow me?

That’s for me and that’s the mental practice of the blank page is because I’m coming back to, I’m not so confused and lost losing focus, I’m able to recognize and rebuild it based on the priorities that I have in my own heart because of who I am.

And then I can go forward and say, okay, so what does Wednesday really need to accomplish?

And what about my Monday vision is just gonna need to transfer to next Monday.

And what conversations am I gonna need to have so that I am keeping that priority of Christ follower, husband, father, you know, those kinds of things.

brother, son, because those are the things that I want to be my identity.

And I don’t want it to be in the things you did or kind of accomplished.


So like I say, that’s just, and I think about that, that’s kind of what came to mind as you were sharing that last part in the, you know, in the, in the fence podcast was just, yeah, sometimes the, what, what the, what the fence, what, how the fence needs to change needs to be reworked around my priorities to a certain degree.

And I think that’s where the protection comes into play.

Because I can say even as a husband, yeah, I’m sorry, Chris, I’m late.

this is that kind of thing and yeah, I’m not saying it won’t happen again and I’m not minimizing, I apologize, that kind of thing when I’m human or I’m communicating ahead of time or those kind of things.

So that’s, does that make sense in those terms?

It does, I’ve never thought about it in those terms and I think I’d like to figure out How to do that because that sounds awesome.

I think there are versions of that They’ve done but not that clearly But there are minus more defeatist coming from a defeated place of like Feeling super stressed You know, it’s kind of like you said when that stuff’s catching, you know Like you’re behind your list if your brain has is an assertive.

I mean it’s stress But it’s just like schism like no things aren’t aligned with what they should be Right and so the further they get a skew from that The more your brain is buzzing.


I’m thinking about I gotta get to that.

I gotta get to that or whatever and There are times when I look at that and I go I Can’t You know, I can’t I can’t get it all done.

I I’m thinking I need to be This type of person, but I can’t be I am all I am is what I am And so I look at like what I have to get down and they go Okay, it kind of this a very similar thing What can I get done in the vein of something that makes sense for like who I want to be yeah?

and It helps me realign it so then Often what that means is there’s more room for people And I go I’m gonna still work on this thing, but maybe Maybe it gets set aside for a second and I check with this person.

Yeah, I think about work for example I sure recognizing in as my role as a management Really leadership.

It’s about them winning And so many weeks I have to go wait a second Your agenda has to get passed Because I want I want them to win and I want them to succeed and my job is to do that.

Yeah like realigning and remembering my priorities are based on The team succeeding not me And it’s hard because I’m you know any in a gram three is someone who wants to succeed.

It’s a pusher it’s a doer it’s a and to say, “Nope, that’s gonna get.



” And we’re gonna put that on home and let someone else wait and do and accomplish it.

~ Gotcha.

~ It’s hard.

~ Yeah.

~ You maybe think of that, but.



~ And I think when you use, and I think from my perspective, I can see it going sideways or maybe even negative when that thought is I should have.

You follow me?

~ Yes.

~ Because it’s at that point, well, what am I?

I’m a lousy.

I’m a no good.

I’m a you know and we fill in that blank when in reality No, that’s not the case.

I Bit off more than I can chew Circumstances changed.

So now what do I do right?

And I and I think you know I as you were describing it, you know I think in some cases it is the difference between CR and my identity who am I in Christ and my identity and a disease model That basically says I am an addict.

I am and it and it and it I’m defining myself by my disease And not defining myself by my identity who I am in Christ and I think that’s where it comes back to for me That’s what that’s what realigning That sheet is about because I’m focusing on who not who I am in an arrogant sense But what is my identity and therefore I re-prioritize based on that and I think that’s where the Yeah, that’s a that’s a part of the whole regeneration if you will It’s a it’s a small regenerating That I can do at 3 30 in the morning when my mind’s in that caught in that schism to a degree Yeah, because I think you know that it happens happens to all of us Because how often you find yourself biting up more than you choose Mmm most of the time most every week.

Yeah, most every week and I find myself shifting.

Yeah Yeah, it’s it’s It’s very interesting how often the most productive people feel the least or can struggle with that feeling of being behind, being under, being lacking.

And often it’s very much tied.

It’s the stick.

You know because the benefit is your productive your your highly productive individual and getting things done from the outside There’s very rarely a person who will look at someone like you and say what does this guy do?

You know it’s like it’s there is production all around you, you know But the other end of that stick is that it becomes a taskmaster Like you said it tends to want to dictate our identity I’m a person who does get things done.


Call this person.

Yep They get stuff done.


Yeah, and that’s who I like again take it on that identity I love what you’re saying is saying replace that.

Yeah, but the truth Mm-hmm and a door is not an identity.

No, it’s a result of your identity you know, what you do who depends on your identity, but Your character your priorities decide that identity.

Yeah Go ahead.

I didn’t realize you were a any three Yeah, that’s interesting to think about Yeah, was it surprising?

No, I’m not a big in a grand person.

I mean, I mean I I see its validity I recognize its value, you know, and I think it’s a, you know, a decent design model type thing.

But I just, and the reason I ask the reality of it is I hate taking tests like that, because I feel like they’re trying to pigeonhole me.

You know, I’m thinking they try to.



Are you an eight?

No, but I’m actually a three myself.


When I’m.



Let’s take your primary.


Why is that surprising?

I get in the air out of five K.

We’re pretending we disagree about things, but really.

Well, I think about it.

I think I want to say when I looked at the label, it was like image performer.


You follow me?


And I didn’t like that label.

I’ll be out.


I would never put that label on you and yet there is an image you care about.

It’s yours.

Like it’s how you view yourself It’s like just think about I mean even in your white white paper Blenke Blenke late white page whatever.


Yeah, there’s probably a name out there by look But yeah, even in that go ahead even in that like you’re you’re recognizing It’s about your image, but you’re recognizing the truth of what you want your image to be so it’s realigning that I think on a regular basis, but your bent is towards Matching the image that you want to have of yourself production getting things done You know meeting deadlines You know not missing Agreements whatever you know whatever but instead of it being you know on someone outside of you Dictating that vision that you’re trying to meet it’s you And I think that I don’t think it aligns The same way I understand and I think and I think that’s where I’m at it’s like When I think of performer I think of I’m putting it out there for other people to see Yes, and image is yeah, and I want your image of me to be good Yeah, and I think in some ways age has taught me that if I’m trying to do that for you That’s that’s futile.

Yeah, and I think yeah, that’s where and you know and I As we think about integrams.

I think about you know how we love also You know and the attachment styles that we develop I don’t know how much you and I’ve talked about that but a bit you know you know and I think the if we’re doing the image thing out of being a pleaser you know you know it because there’s there’s accolades to yeah call call Justin he’ll get stuff done you know what I’m saying and it’s like and and yet the pleaser can also be kind of the negative design of the pleaser is they’re not always honest because what happens is they’re yes, yes, yes, yes.

Eventually runs into a finite timeline that they have to experience.

Someone experiences no from them.


Usually after.

Yes, normally after a yes.

And I think in some ways the ones that get the ones who are closest to us unfortunately get the nose.


And that’s where I think for me that blank sheet comes back into play.

It’s like okay, you know, John’s going away, you know, shortly.

And then you know and then Lizzie’s got distress.

What do, what, how can I help them.

How can I be ministering to my wife in that process?

While I generate some income to be able to do what needs to be done.

I think that’s what’s helpful for me in that exercise.

It’s interesting because I can say I just struggle with boxes.

Yes, I don’t like being pigeonholed, you know.


Why, we did it.

Don’t tell me there’s only a yes or a no to that question.

Come on now.


How do we color outside the line?


Yeah, that feels like, I think it’s an eight.

Like, you must have something like.



John’s full on it.


And then, and then, and then, he’ll bust on me, you know, like when we’re doing F3, you know, he’ll bust on me all the time.

like, you know, somebody, some, you know, everybody will be running in a line and I cross over the road, you know, it’s like, I just, I, and yeah, so I know he gets that from somewhere that doesn’t necessarily show up in my any grams, but yeah, it’s.

Well, if you, so we did a study, like a full day training at my work, and the lady who did it, she basically said, this is a view of the world.

I really liked how she described it.

She took away some of the like This is a religious like this is perfect and flawless and it will be but she was basically saying like if you do this right It will help inform you it will help Give you tools and I really liked her perspective on it But she you know one of the aspects of any agreement is like the wings and then like the the Do you have nugs?


What’s your wing if I made it up?

Remember, I could look it up.

Okay, no, I’m just curious.

But there’s also the triangle thing.

Do you remember that?

Or like usually?

Oh, yes.

Because they go around a circle, basically.


But you usually connect.

And there’s nine.

So, yeah, there’s triangles to all the other ones, typically.

Yes, I hear you.

And I think eight is one of the.



Where it connects to that.

which makes sense in your world that you have some elements of that opposite and so that don’t tell me how to color the page or whatever.


Because you connect that way or I think I’m more connected on the other direction.

Okay, that makes sense.

No, I hadn’t honestly looked into it.

Which when they described all that, I’m like it just sounds like you’re saying anyone can be any.

Yeah, I mean it’s like you’re giving a lot of room for and it’s like well – There has to be.

It’s kinda like you’re saying, like you can’t color me in a box.

~ It’s kinda like psychology, you know?

~ Yeah, I guess, yeah.

~ It’s like, well that explains why you do this and this and this, you know?

~ Yeah.

~ Yeah.

~ Which again, I think there’s helpful.

~ It’s kinda like a horoscope almost.

~ Yeah.

~ It’s like, you keep it generalized enough and it’s like– – See, that’s where she would, yeah, that’s where she would have been like, this is not a horoscope.

~ Yeah, no, I understand.

And I think good models are like that.

They’re specific enough based on statistics and patterns that we can identify.

And yet, they’re not– They’re models.

Yes, they’re models.


A picture of reality, not reality.

And it’s not that there aren’t differences.

There’s a uniqueness that everyone brings to that model.

And this is the generalized part.

But then there’s also the individualized part that says, okay, yeah, there’s room for that also.

~ Yeah.

~ Yeah.

~ When you describe the parts about the three that you don’t espouse or, you know, that kind of like you feel like that’s me.

I’m that, I’m the performer, especially when you mention age, that’s like slowly shifting, but like from when I was young, You know, it was always about image.

It was always about how does this make me look?

It was always about, you know, my second order thinking was, okay, if I do this, maybe that person will say, you know, whatever.

You know, or it could, yeah.

Or it could open opportunities to do more of what I want to do or whatever.

But it’s like, it’s very image conscious.

And so failure was just, is, always been catastrophic to my self-esteem.

I shouldn’t say always, it’s way better now.

Like I’m– – Nice.

~ Yeah, like I would say, a healthy in that way now, but for so much of my life, opposite of healthy, like extreme, unhealthy.

And when failure would occur, it would impact me to my core.

~ Yeah.

~ You know?

And it was because my image was tarnished.

You know?

And it just hurts all that and it’s embarrassing to admit how much it hurt, but like I just could not be wrong like enough Because it would say like you remember what you said early said I am a failure I am it would be identity based yeah instead of Situation would be defining right and so that exercise I was I’m on that defeat is Sometimes I have to cook it.

It’s it’s very similar to what you’re talking about in that I recognize Exceeding and all those things I was hoping to succeed in will not identify me it should not But what I do in this moment does How I you know I mean yeah, it’s really and I’m if I’m hearing you and I think I am you know It’s like I can satisfy all the people or you know I can satisfy a number of people and it really doesn’t change My image that much yes well in in that in that relative terminology you follow me because Yeah, it is it is to the point of that’s kind of who I am and yet Doing it for most everybody Isn’t necessarily gonna matter a whole heck of a lot So this is where I disagree okay go for me it mattered so much Every time I please someone it felt like I just like someone you know inserted five hundred dollars into my bacon cap I got you it it mattered a lot But what I found is there was no amount of money in the bank account that was enough That it was never it only created more need more desire more so now that I please you okay Well, let’s go for this person.


All right now.

I’m juggling both of you Now this person and like I would keep it was that’s why I call it approval addiction Yeah, this idea that like I need more I need more I need more and it wasn’t just getting approval It was also maintaining and not seeing failure because again, that was Very tied into my I guess identity as well so another words because because you because there’s often threes like you said that are dishonest and I Like that that represented failure to me if I said something and didn’t do it so then rather than Cheat that person and like you said loved ones usually get cheated because it’s like all they’ll understand I’m doing all this important stuff.

We take those for granted.

We take those for granted It doesn’t for me.

It didn’t feel like failure or cheating.

It felt like they’ll under you know So messed up, but But yeah, so it’s just like what did you feel there in that moment when you reflected on that you you felt okay?

Yeah, yeah, just I mean you mentioned earlier But like just cheating the people that matter the most for the people that don’t You know and don’t get me wrong people these people matter.

No, no all people matter.

I’ll be all matter Yes, but uh, but yeah, just it’s Just looking back and seeing how I was chasing approval so much at the expense of the approval of my own family My spouse particularly in things she’ll understand what she did because she’s amazing But taking that for granted for so long and it’s still a struggle to not because It’s a combination of my struggle and in her strengths, which is she usually is fine.

She usually is Generous in that way and understand.

She knows who I am She thought when she married me, you know that I was that same person And you know, it doesn’t surprise her and she’s learned how to live with that.

But there’s also second order consequences to it, you know, that we’ve taken on over the years and you know, like things to celebrate covering other the tools like that, seeing how when you do this, it actually causes this over here.

And like you said, sometimes we don’t see that in the beginning, but over time you’re able to recognize that.

And so that’s where the shame comes is recognizing like the deep wounds and pains and crevices created by years of doing that and recognizing like it wasn’t just a you know, shall I understand what I’m actually creating problems in our relationship because I continue to do that, you know?


The patterns and the cycles go on and we feel shame about having lived that pattern out so long in hindsight.

And I think is that the part where you recognize age has made a difference in that?


Because I know you were.

Well, it’s a combination of, but I think age is probably the biggest thing because you know I think with age it’s implicit that there’s experience there sure you know I mean yeah it’s not just that years have gone on it’s that years have gone on and experiencing the reality right and recognizing that again I didn’t come to this understanding that pleasing people would ultimately feel empty or whatever yeah I experienced it and therefore learned it right like I work so hard and burned every end of the candle and and And you know what I mean?

My old friend Keith used to call it the performance treadmill.

~ Okay, sure.

~ And just this idea of like work worker work and recognizing that I still feel empty.

Just one more person to please.

All right, let’s do this.

And recognizing through several burnouts and kind of going the other end of just like, “I got nothing, I can do nothing, I’m a failure.

” having to rebuild from that place.

Like you can’t keep doing this is a broken pattern, you know.

So yes, age, but really what what age is game me, which is experience, which is tools, which is things I celebrate recovery that have come into my life and taught me, you know, I’ve been doing that since 2007, you know, so like those tools have been, and then I talk about seven habits all the time.

Like I read that shortly before my first step study group in uh.



selbert covering i think they my mind was so hungry at that time that both of those things have just become me mmm that they like integrated into me and um.



obviously you know that that then translated into perfection but helped me to see the reality through some of the lies in my mind of like approval and all that And that’s when I started using the word approval addiction, was probably 14 years ago.

And 14 years of work has got me to a place where I don’t think I’m addicted anymore.

Really does.

~ Really?

~ Yeah.

~ Yeah.

I think sometimes I get a hit of it, and it’s like, “Ooh, that feels good.

“I want more.

” And I go, “No, we know what that is.

” But I’m gonna be thankful for this hit.

I’m even thankful that God is generous and is approval with others of how he brings their approval to me.

and I very often look at it that way.

Like, thank you, you know I need that.

You know there’s a part of me that is fueled by that, but you also know that’s unhealthy.

Or you’re like, I see what you’re doing and I’m thankful.

~ Yeah.

~ And there’s, when I have to do something that is very public preaching, leading worship, teaching Friday night, that’s my prayer of surrender, is that, I don’t need this approval if I have to fall on my face literally and do something completely embarrassing to keep me close to you, I’ll take it.


I will, I’ll take it.

And I had to pray that prayer with worship so many times and I believe I experienced it many times.


Missing a note or forgetting my capo is on and starting the song in the wrong key.

And like those things in the moment were devastating because it didn’t align with who I wanted to be, worship leader or whatever.

I’m just a bumbling idiot who doesn’t belong up here.

But also recognizing and looking back at that and going, “No, this was part of his journey to keep me close to him while bringing me to where my desire, my heart was.

” Nice.

Does that make sense?


in that whole process of the plans that he has for you.

~ Yes.

~ Yeah, the failure is the humility that needs you to be reliant and say, “Okay, yep, I’m still learning.

I’m not a bumbling idiot.

I’m just learning how to be a worship leader.

” – In the moment, it feels like I’m literally bumbling idiot.

Processing it over time.


I’m able to bring fold the truth into it.

Replace that.

It’s ridiculous.

It’s the regenerating of your mind.


I’ve gone from instantly thinking that I’m a bumbling idiot.

Five years later, 10 years, 14 years, 20 years later.

I can say, yep, still need you, God.



Can’t do this without you.

Thanks for being here.

Yeah and ultimately it is it’s kind of that audience of one type lifestyle.


That’s yep.

Yeah and the the say you know the flip side of that performance treadmill thing is really really experiencing and learning the value of failure.

And replacing the lies of failure is failure.

Yeah, I am a failure.

I’m a failure.



Failure equals loser or losing equals loser And replacing that with you know failure is part of the journey forward failures part of learning.

Yes That’s what I mean.

Yeah, the journey for that agreement growth mindset.

Yeah, it’s this idea that when I fail There’s something in this that’s going to help me.

Yeah, you know and The the lesser failures I’m able to just roll right into that the some of the Deeper cutting ones takes takes a minute the bigger shamer ones regrowth Regeneration yeah the bigger shame ones.


Yeah, which shame is Very much attached to Public image.

Yeah, no doubt.

You know so like I said, you know on that stage messing something up Yeah, you know, it’s it’s the thing that I’ve taken and I put it on the altar and said burn it burn me Like yeah, cuz that’s wrong how much I care and yet Yeah, you know, it’s like refining the you know It’s take the draws out of the silver and the silver smith has something for use.

Yeah Yeah Yeah, yeah, and also saying if what ends up burning up is everything There was no silver there true it was hey, and so there’s been a lot of that surrender to say burn it up If there’s no silver there and see what’s left right yeah, and if that just know that whole thing’s gone Oh, yeah, I didn’t worship.

Yeah if there’s nothing left there Then I just I want it to be right and I want it to be me So that goes away because you said no not for you Like that prayer of surrender.


Well, of course not wanting that but yeah, you know, yeah Well, that’s good stuff.

It’s good And I was thinking about it even just in the aspect of age because you got to realize I mean, you know dad jokes come from a a place of not caring what other people, especially your children, tend to think, you know?

And I was thinking about it, yeah, even like with John and I, or you know, sometimes with Lizzie, it’s like, I respect the fact that sometimes what I do is embarrassing to them.


Yeah, yeah, quite often probably and not embarrassing is in the aspect of but it’s like it’s in some ways I don’t care if there’s attention Yeah, I was shifted and I respect the fact that neither one of them desire attention, you know in that in that public yeah, you know, so yeah, it’s it’s I’m wrestling with that not wrestling in the sense of Changing but being aware that yeah, I may not care right but yeah at times Yeah, I don’t want to necessarily create unnecessary embarrassment.

Yeah, yeah in the balance too of sometimes As a dad Kind of like your role is to make them just a little embarrassed And recognize life not so serious, it’s a bit, but yeah, that balance, but also protecting them from Yeah, unnecessary.





The balance is good.



I think about the mom who drops her, you know, teenage son up in school says, I love you son!

And like, that’s probably a good thing, you know.


There’s a balance to that and of course, Yeah.


And you know, I’ll wash your whitey tights tonight.

You know, that’s probably not, that’s probably, yeah.


Well, just a little bit, I’d say.

Just a little bit.

So yeah, I was thinking about that, uh, the blank page, the clean slate.

What’s, um, in the, in the process of your tools and learning, well, if you can share one tool that has been beneficial.

I’m just thinking about it from that aspect.

What would that be for you?

As a, as even like a go to, that’s pretty deep side.

It’s a deep side.

And if it’s something you don’t want to share, that’s okay too.

I respect that.

I think it depends on what level you’re at of this of mine.

I’m okay with any thing – I’m just saying from the very beginning, the thing, and this is something I’ve tried to coach others to do who are kind of, I think, in that very beginning as well.

And it goes for more than just, quote unquote, approvalistic sure, someone like me, but it’s when your thinking has gotten you to a bad place over and over and over.

the most important tool I had to learn.

It’s not even a tool, it’s a rejection.

It’s a, I’m probably wrong about my thinking most of the time, how can I fix this?

Because up until that, surrender that kind of, I believe the lies that I would tell.

You know what I mean?

I am a failure, I am, what are just all the nonsense and getting to a place of like, no, my thinking is causing brokenness in so many areas of my life, I’m gonna stop trusting myself.

That’s what it was.

Not just saying, you’re an idiot, you can’t, nothing you say is right or nothing you think is right, but more of stop trusting yourself so much is being the most trustworthy voice in your head and recognize that maybe right now, until I can get realigned, I am the most untrustworthy voice in my head.

So who can I trust to help me?

But you can’t go to that place of who can I trust, how getting someone in your life, whatever, until you get to that first.

And I don’t know if that’s a tool or that’s just baby stuff to get you towards some tools because again, I’ve tried to coach other people in this tool where it’s very clear that their thinking is preventing them from moving forward.

It’s like, it’s not until you stop trusting yourself so much that you’re so smart, that you got it all figured out, that everything you believe is right.

It’s not until you distrust that initial assessment, especially in, you know, there’s always certain areas where this is more applicable than others.

You know, your judgment might be spot on over here, but this particular thing, probably the reason you’re around me in recovery or whatever is because looking over here, your vision is completely skewed and broken.

So I say, “Stop trusting what you’re seeing is right.

” Baseline, it might be.

That is– – It’s never about saying you’re wrong, it’s about saying, “Stop trusting it so blindly.

” Again, not really a tool, but– No, but an insight.


Because for me, that was ground zero.



To start the beginning of the rest of my life, really.


That’s how you see it.

That’s how I see it.

Appreciate your sharing from that.

Thank you.


My pleasure.

I’m going to have to learn that.

Link page.

Link page.

That’s how we see it.

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast.

If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do.

Subscribe, rate, review, follow us and or talk nicely about us on social media.

If you want to reach out, the email is us@howicea.


Yep, I said .

click as in .


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(piano music) (upbeat music)