Justin:

Hello friends and listeners. This week we’re taking a break from recording new episodes, so we’re bringing you an encore presentation of one of our most meaningful conversations from the archives. We called it White Blank Page We hope new listeners will enjoy this episode for the first time. If you listened to this episode when it aired over a year ago. Uh first of all, thank you. Uh thanks for hanging with us and becoming a regular member of the How I See It pod crew, I guess? I don’t know. What do we call you guys? Uh anyway, we hope this episode is a good and helpful reminder for you in your current season of life. Enjoy!

Mark:

No, it’s a practice. It’s a practice. When I feel myself becoming overwhelmed, I

Justin:

it’s a mental exercise.

Mark:

It’s a mental exercise.

Justin:

So x talk that through with me.

Mark:

Um

Justin:

if you want me to.

Mark:

No, it’s all good. I was I was thinking about it from the aspect of the uh When in the process of a week, I typically see myself as having certain things that I want to accomplish And then there’s at least three or four areas that I’m trying to accomplish things in simultaneously

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

So in that process, I can start in on Monday thinking about those things. And Monday is okay. But when I get to Wednesday

Justin:

Right, ’cause on Monday The week is gonna be a great week.

Mark:

Yeah, it has the ability. I’m gonna do this, I’m gonna do this, and I’m gonna accomplish this. But then by Wednesday, there’s a certain reality that starts to set Welcome to How I See It. With me, Mark Pratt and

Justin:

Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations.

Mark:

It’s like I I I am or I am not gonna be able to accomplish. I have accomplished, or maybe weather came in, circumstances I couldn’t get the keys for that job, or you know, this thing didn’t line up and not even anything that’s necessarily. my fault or within my control just circumstantial it’s a reality

Justin:

because we are our future Justin is the best version of Justin The most efficient, the most thoughtful, the most productive, the least impacted by, you know, ultimate

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Yeah. And so we’re often planning with future Justin or future Mark.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And so the week looks really good. Good from that angle.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And then by Wednesday though, for me, they’re

Justin:

Cast

Mark:

Justin, really, man. He needs No, but Wednesday, I’m starting to recognize I may not have accomplished all of those things in all of those areas. And I’m starting to, my mind is starting to become a little more confused. Conflicted, confused. So for me, I come back and that’s where the blank slate, the w you know, white paper comes in.

Justin:

You treat it like Monday? Is that what I’m saying?

Mark:

No, I just I just I just wipe it all off. I wipe it all off in my mind. And in that moment, there’s a peace. Because I’ve been able to um recognize that um maybe I wasn’t intended to do quite all of those things. And there’s a piece that says okay you’re not solely responsible for all those things you’re not even possible Able to do all of those things. But yet I can start adding back. Once I wipe it clean, I start with who I am Okay, I start putting back on, okay, I am a Christ follower. I am a husband to Chris. I am the father of John and Lizzie. I am a therapist. I am a podcast host. Co-host. And as I prioritize who I am, that helps me re-establish what I need to accomplish on Wednesday. You follow me? That’s that’s for me and that’s that’s the the the mental practice of the blank page is because I’m coming back to I’m not so confused. and folk and and lost losing focus, I’m able to recognize and rebuild it based on the priorities that I have in my own heart because of who I am. And then I can go forward and say, okay, so what does Wednesday really need to accomplish? And what about my Monday vision is just gonna need to transfer to next Monday? And what conversations am I gonna need to have so that I am keeping that priority of Christ follower, husband, father , you know, those kind of things, brother, son. Because those those are the things that I want to be my identity. And I don’t want it to be

Justin:

things you did or got accomplished.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. So like you say, that’s just and I and I think about that, that’s kind of what came to mind as you were sharing that last part in the you know in that in the the fence podcast was just yeah sometimes the what what the what the fence what how the fence needs to change needs to be rew worked around my priorities to a certain degree. And I think that’s where the protection comes into play. Because I can say even as a husband, yeah, I’m sorry. Sorry Chris, I’m late. This is, you know, that kind of thing. And yeah, I’m not saying it won’t happen again. And I’m not I’m not minimizing. I apologize. You know, that kind of thing. when I’m human. You know? Or I’m or I’m communicating ahead of time. Or, you know, those those kind of things. So that’s that’s yeah. Does that make sense in those

Justin:

It does. I yeah, I’ve never thought about it in those terms and I think I think I’d like to figure out how to do that because that sounds awesome. I think there are versions of that today. done but not that clearly. Um but there are mine is more defeatist coming from a defeated place. of like feeling super stressed. You know, it’s kinda like you said when that stuff’s catch you know, like you’re behind on your list. It’s your brain has is in a certain state. I mean it’s stress, but it’s this like schism, like things aren’t aligned with what they should be. Right? And so the further they get s askew from that the more your brain is buzzing and thinking about I gotta get to that, I gotta get to that or whatever. And there are times when I look at that and I go I can’t. You know? I can’t I can’t get it all done. I am thinking I need to be this type of person, but I can’t be. I am all I am is what I am. And so I look at like what I have to get done and I go Okay, it kind of this a very similar thing. What can I get done in the vein of something that makes sense for like who I want to be. Yeah. And it helps me realign. And so then often what that means is there’s more room for people And I go, I’m gonna still work on this thing, but maybe maybe it gets set aside for a second and I check with this person. think about work for example like

Mark:

sure

Justin:

recognizing in as my role as a management and really leadership it’s about them winning and so many weeks I have to go wait a second your agenda has to get paused because I want I want them to win and I want them to succeed And my job is to do that.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Like realigning and remembering my priorities are based on the team succeeding, not me. And it’s hard because I’m you know any in a grim three is someone who wants to succeed. It’s a pusher, it’s a doer, it’s a and to say, no, that’s gonna get and we’re gonna put that on hold and let some someone else went and do and accomplish and

Mark:

gotcha.

Justin:

It’s hard.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, use you made me think of that, but

Mark:

and I think when you use and I I think at from my perspective I can see it going Sideways or maybe even negative when that thought is I should have. You follow me?

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Because it’s at that point, well, what am I? I’m a I’m a lousy. I’m a I’m a no good. I’m a you know and we fill in that blank when in reality no that’s not the case. I I bit off more that I could chew. Circumstances changed. So now what do I do?

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

And I and And I think, you know, I as you were describing it, you know, I think in some cases it is the difference between CR and my identity, who am I in Christ and my identity identity and a disease model that basically says I am an addict. I am and it and it and it I’m defining myself by my disease. And not defining myself by my identity, who I am in Christ. And I think that’s where it comes back to for me. That’s what that’s what realigning that sheet yeah is about because I’m focusing on who not who I am in an arrogant sense but what is my identity and therefore I re-prioritize on that. And I think that’s where the yeah, that’s a that’s a a part of the whole regeneration, if you will. It’s a it’s a small regeneration regenerating that I can do at 3 30 in the morning when my mind’s in that caught in that schism to a degree. Yeah. Because I think you know that it It it happens. It happens to all of us in those moments.

Justin:

Because how often do you find yourself biting out more than you can chew?

Mark:

Most of the time. Most every week. Yeah. Most every week. And I find myself shifting.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It’s uh it’s it’s very interesting how often the most um productive people feel the least or can struggle with that feeling of being behind being under, being beh you know, lacking and often it’s very much tied. It’s the stick.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know? Because the benefit is you’re productive. You’re you’re a highly productive individual in getting things done. And from the outside, there’s very rarely a person who will look at some like you and say, What does this guy do? You know, it’s like it’s there is production all around you, you know. But the other end of that stick is that it becomes a taskmaster and like you said it tends to want to dictate our identity.

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

I’m a person who does, gets things done.

Mark:

Yep. Call this person.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Yeah, they get stuff done.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And that’s who I like. Again, taking on that identity. And I love what you’re saying is saying replace that.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

With the truth.

Mark:

Hmm.

Justin:

And a doer is not an identity.

Mark:

No.

Justin:

It’s a result of your identity. You know, and what you do depends on your identity, but

Mark:

Your character, your priorities decide that identity. Yeah.

Justin:

And so yeah.

Mark:

Go ahead. I didn’t realize you were a NE3. Yeah. That’s interesting to think about Yeah.

Justin:

Was it surprising?

Mark:

No, and and I’m I’m I’m not a big Enneagram person. I mean I mean I I see its validity, I recognize its value. You know, and I I think it’s a you know, a decent design model type thing, but I just and I and the reason I ask, the the reality of it is I hate taking tests like that ’cause I feel like they’re trying to pigeonhole me, you know. I’m I’m thinking they try to

Justin:

eight or what

Mark:

no, but I’m actually a three myself when I’m when I’m that

Justin:

‘s eight your primary.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Why is that surprising? Uh I think we’re sitting here on a podcast We’re pretending we addic disagree about things, but really

Mark:

Well I I think about it. I think I wanna say when I looked at the label, it was like image performer.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You follow me?

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And I I didn’t like that label. I’ll be that’s that I

Justin:

Yeah, I would never put that label on you. And yet there is an image you care about. It’s yours. Like it’s how you view it. yourself. And so you like just think about I mean even in your white uh white paper like

Mark:

Blank label. Blank sheet. Blank sheet, yeah. Blank sheet. Blank slate. White page. Whatever. Yes. There’s probably a name out there if

Justin:

I look.

Mark:

But yeah, even in that, go ahead and

Justin:

even in that, like you’re you’re recognizing it’s it’s about your image, but you’re recognizing the truth of what you want your image to be. So it’s realigning that. I think on a regular basis, but your bent is towards matching the image that you want to have of yourself, production, getting things done. you know, meeting deadlines, you know, not missing agreements, whatever, you know, whatever. But instead of it being, you know, on someone outside of you. dictating that vision that you’re trying to meet. It’s you. And

Mark:

I and I think that

Justin:

I don’t I don’t think it aligns the same way, but I understand.

Mark:

And I think and I think that’s where I’m at. It’s like Um when I think of performer, I think of um I’m putting it out there for other people to see.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

An image is And I want your image of me to be good.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think in some ways age has taught me that if I’m trying to do that for you, that That’s that’s futile.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And I think you know that’s where and I you know and I that as we think about enagrams, I think about you know um how we love also. You know, and the attachment styles that we develop. I don’t know how much you and I have talked about that, but

Justin:

a little bit, yeah.

Mark:

You know, and I and I think the if we’re doing the image thing out of being a pleaser, you know , you know, because there’s there’s accolades to yeah, call call Justin, he’ll get stuff done. You know what I’m saying? And it’s like and it And yet the pleaser can also be kind of the negative design of the pleaser, is they’re not always honest. Because what happens happens is their yes, yes, yes, yes eventually runs into a finite timeline that they have to experience, someone experiences no from them.

Justin:

Right. Usually after a yes.

Mark:

Yes, normally.

Justin:

In that world, yeah.

Mark:

Yes, normally after a yes. And I think in some ways the ones that get the ones who are closest to us unfortunately get the nose.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And that’s where I think for me that blank sheet comes back into play. It’s like, okay. you know John ‘s going away you know shortly and then you know and then Lizzie’s got distress what do what how can I help them what can I be you know how can I be ministering to my wife in that process while while I generate some income to be able to you know do what needs to be done and I think that’s what that’s what’s helpful for me in that in that exercise.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Because I and I and I it’s interesting because I can say I just struggle. I struggle. I struggle with boxes. Yes, I don’t like being pigeonholed, you know.

Justin:

Yeah. Well I I want we don’t

Mark:

tell me there’s only a yes or a no to that question. Come on now.

Justin:

Right. What if we color outside the line?

Mark:

Yes

Justin:

Yeah, that that feels like uh what I think it’s an eight. Like you must have some like

Mark:

John’s John’s full on

Justin:

eight. Yeah.

Mark:

And um then and then and then he’ll bust on me, you know, like when we’re doing F through you know, he’ll bust on me all the time. It’s like, you know, somebody, some guy, you know, everybody will be running in a line and I cross over the road, you know, and it’s like I just I and yeah, so I know he gets that from somewhere. That doesn’t necessarily show up in my anneagrams, but yeah, it’s pretty much.

Justin:

Well if you I don’t so so we did a study uh like a full day training at my work.

Mark:

Oh, neat.

Justin:

And the lady who did it, she basically said, This is a view of the world. I I’ve really liked how she described it. She took away some of the like This is a religious like this is perfect and flawless and it will but she was basically saying like if you do this right it will help inform you it will help give you tools and I really liked her perspective on it. But she you know one of the aspects of Enneagram is like the wings and then like the the

Mark:

Do you have wings?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

What’s your wing if I may

Justin:

Remember, I could look it up.

Mark:

Okay, no, I’m just curious.

Justin:

But there’s also the like triangle thing. Do you remember that? Where like usually

Mark:

’cause they go around a circle basically.

Justin:

Yeah. But you’re usually connect.

Mark:

So yeah, there’s triangles to all the to two other ones typically. Yes, I hear you.

Justin:

And I think eight is one of those where it like connect next to that which makes sense in your world that you you have some elements of that obstinence or that like don’t tell me how to color the page or whatever

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Because it connects ’cause you connect that way or I think I’m more connected on the other direction.

Mark:

Okay, that makes sense. No, I I hadn’t I hadn’t honestly looked into it.

Justin:

Which when they described all that, I’m like, it just sounds like you’re saying anyone can be any like you know what I mean? It’s like you’re giving a lot of like room for is like, well there has to be.

Mark:

It’s kind of like you’re saying, like you can’t color me in a box. It’s kind of like psychology, you know?

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

It’s like, well that explains why you do this and this and this. Yeah. You know?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Which again I think there’s helpful.

Mark:

It’s kind of like Uh horoscope almost. It’s like you you you keep it generalized enough. See that’s where she would

Justin:

yeah, that’s where she would have been like This is not a horoscope. Yeah. No,

Mark:

no. I understand. And I and I think good models are like that. They’re they’re they’re specific enough based on statistics and patterns that we can identify and yet they’re not

Justin:

they’re models.

Mark:

Yes, they’re models.

Justin:

They’re a picture of reality.

Mark:

And it’s not that there aren’t differences. There’s not there’s a uniqueness that everyone brings to that model.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And this is this is the generalized part. But then there’s also the individual Visualized part that says, okay, yeah, there’s room for that also.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

When you describe the parts about the three that you don’t espouse are uh or you know that kind of like you feel like that’s me. I’m that. I’m the performer I especially and you mention age that’s like slowly shifting But f like from when I was young, you know, is it ‘s always about image. It was always about how does this make me look? It was always about You know, my second order thinking was okay, if I do this, maybe that person will see or whatever. You know, or or it could, yeah. Or it could open opportunities to do more of what I want to do or whatever. But it’s like it’s very image conscious. And so failure was just as his Always been catastrophic to my self-esteem. I shouldn’t say always. It’s way better now. Like I yeah, like I would say healthy in that way now, but for so much of my life, opposite of healthy, like extreme unhealth in when failure would occur it would impact me to my core.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know? And it was because my image was tarnished

Mark:

Hmm.

Justin:

You know? And it just hurt so bad. And it’s embarrassing to admit how much it hurt. But like I just could not be wrong. I could not Because it would say like you remember what you said earlier, you said, I am a failure. I am it would be identity based.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Instead of situation

Mark:

it would be defining.

Justin:

Right. And so that exercise I was talking about that defeated is sometimes I have to c it it’s it’s very similar to what you’re talking about in that I recognize succeeding at all those things I was hoping to succeed in will not identify me. It should not. But what I do in this moment Does. Yeah. How I you know what I mean?

Mark:

Yeah, because really and I and I’m um if I’m hearing you and I think I am, you know, it’s like I can satisfy all the people or you know, I can satisfy a number of people and it really doesn’t change my image that much.

Justin:

Yes. Well

Mark:

in in in that in that relative terminology. You follow me? Because yeah, it it is it is to the point of that’s kind of who I am, and yet doing it for most everybody is necessarily gonna matter a whole heck of a lot.

Justin:

So this this is where I disagree.

Mark:

Okay, go for it.

Justin:

For me it mattered so much. And every time I please someone it felt like I just like someone you know, inserted five hundred dollars into my bank account.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

It it mattered a lot. But what I found is there was no amount of money in the bank account that was enough enough. There it was never it it only created more need, more desire, more so now that I pleased you, okay, well let’s go for this person. Okay. Alright, now I’m juggling both of you, now this person in like Like I would keep it was that’s why I call it approval addiction, right?

Mark:

Yeah, how you do that.

Justin:

It’s this idea that like I need more, I need more, I need more, and it wasn’t just getting approval, it was also maintaining it. and not seeing failure because again that was very tied into my I guess identity as well. So in other words, because you cause there’s often threes, like you said, that are dishonest. And I like that that represented failure to me if I said something and didn’t do it. So then rather than cheat that person and like you said, loved ones usually get cheated because it’s like oh they’ll understand I’m doing all this important stuff.

Mark:

We take those for granted.

Justin:

We take those for granted. It doesn’t for me it didn’t feel like failure or cheating. It felt like they’ll under you know Yeah. It’s so messed up.

Mark:

But uh

Justin:

but yeah, so it’s just like what

Mark:

did you feel there in that moment when you reflected on that? You you felt

Justin:

shame.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Just I mean y you would you m mentioned earlier but like just cheating the people that matter the most for the people that don’t.

Mark:

Uh.

Justin:

You know, and don’t get me wrong, peop these people matter No no all people matter.

Mark:

All people matter, yeah. Yes. But uh

Justin:

but yeah, just it’s just looking back and seeing how I was chasing approval so much. at the expense of the approval of my own family, my spouse particularly, and saying she’ll understand, which she did because she’s amazing. But taking that for granted for so long And it’s still a struggle to not because it’s a combination of my struggle and and her strengths, which is She usually is fine. She usually is gen generous in that way and understand she knows who I am. She she saw it when she married me, you know, that I was that same person.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And, you know, so n It doesn’t surprise her and she’s learned how to live with that. But there’s also second-order consequences to it, you know, that we’ve taken on over the years and recognized you know, like thanks to Celbert covering or the tools like that, seeing how when you do this it actually causes this over here and like you said, sometimes we don’t see that in the beginning, but over time time you’re able to recognize that and so that’s where the shame comes is recognizing like the deep wounds and pains and and crevices created by years of doing that

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

And recognizing like it wasn’t just uh you know, she’ll understand but it actually was creating pro you know, problems in in our relationship. Um, because I could

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah, the patterns and the cycles go on and we feel shame about having had having lived that pattern out so long in hindsight. And I think is that is that the part where you recognize age has made made a difference in that? Yeah.

Justin:

Well it’s a combination of but I think age is probably the m the biggest thing

Mark:

because

Justin:

and I think with age it’s implicit that there’s experience there.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know what I mean?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It’s not just that years have gone on, it’s that years have gone on in experiencing the reality, right? And and recognizing that again, I didn’t come to this understanding that please people would ultimately feel empty or whatever.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I experienced it and therefore learned it, right? Like I worked so hard and burned every end of the candle and and you know what I mean? Um my old friend Keith used to call it the performance treadmill.

Mark:

Okay. Sure.

Justin:

And um just this idea of like w work, work, work, work and recognizing that I still feel empty. Ah, just one more person to please. Alright, let’s do this.

Mark:

You know

Justin:

And recognizing through several burnouts and kind of going the other end of just like, I got nothing, I can do nothing, I’m official failure, you know, and having to rebuild from that place. Like you can’t keep doing this is a broken pattern, you know. So yes, age, but really what what age has gained me, which is ex experience which is tools, which is things like celebrate recovery that have come into my life and taught me, you know, I’ve been doing that since 2007. You know, so like those tools have been pre and then I talk about seven habits all the time. Like I read that shortly before my first step study group in

Mark:

uh

Justin:

uh celebrate recovery and I think they my mind was so hungry at that time that both of those things have just become me. If that they like integrated into me and Um obviously, you know, that that didn’t translate into perfection, but helped me to see the reality through some of the lies. in my mind of like approval and all that. And that’s when I started using the word approval addiction. It was probably fourteen years ago.

Mark:

Wow.

Justin:

And fourteen years of work has got me to a place where I don’t think I’m addicted anymore. anymore. Yeah. I think sometimes I get a hit of it and it’s like, ooh, that feels good. I want more. And I go, no, we know what that is.

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

But I’m gonna be thankful for this hit. I’m gonna be thankful that God is generous in his approval with others you know, how he l brings their approval to me.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I very often look at it that way. Like, thank you. You know I need that. You know there’s a part of me that is fueled by that, but you also know that’s unhealthy.

Mark:

Or

Justin:

you’re like I I s I see what you you’re doing and I’m thankful.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And you know, and there’s when I have to do something that is very public, preaching, yeah, leading worship, you know, teaching Friday night that’s my prayer of surrender is that I don’t need this approval if if I have to fall on my face literally and do something completely embarrassing to keep me close to you, I’ll take it.

Mark:

Nice.

Justin:

I will I’ll take it. And I had to pray that prayer with worship so many times and I believe I ex It many times of missing a note or forgetting my capo was on and starting the song in the wrong key. And like those things in the moment were death devastating because it it didn’t align with who I wanted to be, a worship leader or whatever. I’m just a bumbling idiot who doesn’t belong up here. But also recognizing and looking back at that and going, No, this was part of his journey to keep me close to him while bringing me to where my desire my heart was.

Mark:

Nice.

Justin:

Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah, yeah. In that whole process of the the pl Plans that he has for you.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Yeah. The failure is is the humility that needs you to be real reliant and saying okay yep I’m still learning I’m not a bumbling idiot I’m just learning how to be a worship leader

Justin:

in the moment it feels like I’m literally a bumbling idiot. Processing it over time, sure. I’m able to bring fold the truth into

Mark:

It’s the regenerating of your mind.

Justin:

Yes. I’ve gone from

Mark:

instantly thinking that I’m a bumbling idiot five years later, ten years, fourteen years 20 years later, I can say, yep, still need you, God.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Yep. Can’t do this without you. Thanks for being here.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

Yeah. And ultimately it is it’s kind of that audience of one type lifestyle.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That’s

Justin:

Yep. Yeah. And the the sec you know, the flip side of that performance treadmill thing is really, really experiencing and learning the value of faith. Failure. And replacing the lies of failure is failure, you know, failure is fail I am a failure. I’m a failure. Right.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Failure equals loser or losing equals loser. Um and replacing that with you know failure is part of the journey forward.

Mark:

Failure is part of learning.

Justin:

Yes, that’s what I mean.

Mark:

Yeah, the journey forward. Yeah.

Justin:

Growth mindset.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It’s this idea that when I fail there’s something in this that’s going to help me.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know? And the the lesser failures I’m able to just roll right into that. The some of the deeper cutting ones takes takes a minute.

Mark:

The bigger shame ones. Regenerate.

Justin:

Regenerate.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

The bigger shame ones, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Which shame is very much attached to public image.

Mark:

Yes. No doubt.

Justin:

You know, so like I said, being up on that stage messing something up.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know, it’s it’s the thing that I’ve taken and I put it it on the altar and said, burn it, burn me. Like, yeah. Because that’s wrong how much I care. And yet. You know, it’s a

Mark:

It’s that refining. Take the draws out of the silver and the silversmith has something for use. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

And also saying if what ends up burning up is everything, there was no silver there.

Mark:

True. It was hay and

Justin:

so there’s been a lot of that surrender to say burn it up if there’s no silver there.

Mark:

And see what’s left.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And if that just no, that whole thing’s gone.

Mark:

Oh yeah.

Justin:

Doing worship.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

If there’s nothing left there.

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

Then I just I want it to be right. I don’t want it to be me. So if that goes away because you said no, not for you.

Mark:

Mm.

Justin:

Like that prayer of surrender.

Mark:

Hmm.

Justin:

Well, of course not wanting that, but

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

Yeah. Oh, that’s good stuff. And I was thinking about it even just in the aspect of ‘Cause you gotta realize I mean, you know, dad jokes come from a place of not caring what other people, especially your children

Justin:

,

Mark:

tend to think, you know. about it, yeah, even like with John and I or you know, sometimes with Lizzie, it’s like I I respect the fact that sometimes what I do is is embarrassing to them.

Justin:

Sometimes.

Mark:

Yeah, yeah, quite often probably. And not embarrassing is in the aspect of, but it’s like it’s in some ways I don’t care if there’s a tension. Yeah, shifted. And I respect the fact that neither one of them desire attention, you know, in that in that public.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know. So yeah, it’s it’s uh Yeah, I’m I’m I’m I’m wrestling with that. Not wrestling in the sense of changing, but being aware that yeah, I may not care.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

But yeah, at times, yeah. I don’t want to necessarily create unnecessary embarrassment.

Justin:

Yeah, that makes sense.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And the balance too sometimes as a dad. It’s kind of like your role is to make ’em look just a little embarrassed

Mark:

and recognize

Justin:

life’s not so serious. It’s a but yeah, that balance but I also put protecting them from

Mark:

unnecessary.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Growth.

Justin:

I think about the mom who drops her, you know, teenage teenage son up at school says, I love you, son! And like how that’s probably a good thing, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

There’s a balance to that, and of course, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Saying uh, you know, I’ll wash your whitey tighties tonight. You know, that’s probably not that’s probably over the top.

Mark:

Yeah, yeah, well just a little bit. I’d say just a little bit. So yeah, I was I was thinking about that uh the blank page, the the clean What um in the in the process of your tools and learning, what if you could share one tool that has been beneficial? I’m just thinking about it from that aspect. What would that be for you? As a as even like a go-to? That’s a pretty deep sigh.

Justin:

It’s a deep sigh.

Mark:

And if it’s something you don’t want to share, that’s okay too. I respect that.

Justin:

I think it depends on what level you’re at of this of my

Mark:

I’m a I’m okay with any thing that’s of that value to you.

Justin:

From the very beginning.

Mark:

Hmm.

Justin:

The thing And this is something I’ve I’ve tried to coach others to do who are kind of I think in that very beginning as well. And it it goes for more than just quote unquote approval addiction or someone like me but it’s when your thinking has gotten you to a bad place over and over and over. The most important tool I had to learn. It’s not even a tool, it’s a a rejection. It’s this

Mark:

,

Justin:

I’m probably wrong about my thinking most of the time. How can I fix this?

Mark:

Hmm.

Justin:

Because up until that surrender that kind of I believed the lies that I was telling you know what I mean? I am a failure. I am what I’m just all the nonsense and getting to a place of like no my thinking is causing brokenness in so many areas of my life, I’m gonna stop trusting myself. That’s what it was. Not not not just saying you’re an idiot, you can’t tr you can’t nothing you say is right. or nothing you think is right, but more of stop trusting yourself so much as being the most trustworthy voice in your head.

Mark:

And

Justin:

recognize that maybe right now, until I can get realigned, I am the most untrustworthy voice in my life. my head. So who can I trust to help me? You know? But you can’t go to that place of who can I trust? How you know getting someone in your life, whatever it until you get to that first. And I don’t know if that’s a tool or if that’s just baby step to get you s to get you towards some tools because I again I’ve I’ve tried to coach other people in this too, like where it’s very clear that their thinking is preventing them from moving forward. It’s like it’s not until you stop Trusting yourself so much that you’re so smart, that you got it all figured out, that you’re you know, everything you believe is right. It’s not until you distrust that initial assessment, especially in you know, there’s always certain areas where this is more applicable than ours. others. You know, you don’t your your your judgment might be spot on over here, but it’s this particular thing probably the reason you’re around me in s recovery or whatever is because looking over here your vision is completely skewed And broke it. So I say stop trusting what you’re seeing is right. Baseline. It might be.

Mark:

Hmm.

Justin:

Again, not really a tool, but

Mark:

No, but an insight.

Justin:

Yeah. Because for me that was that was ground zero.

Mark:

Sure. You know, yeah.

Justin:

To start the beginning of the rest of my life. Really.

Mark:

Yeah. That’s how you see it.

Justin:

That’s how I see it.

Mark:

Appreciate you sharing from that.

Justin:

Thank you.

Mark:

Oh, my pleasure.

Justin:

I’m gonna have to learn the blank page.

Mark:

Blank page. That’s how we see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot click Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.