0:00
[Music]

0:05
so uh for you folks care to share a fun F memory yes or Chris even I'm sorry I

0:12
didn't mean to I don't have any fun

0:17
memory I was going to let you go first I want to hear your fun memory oh

0:24
um I can't think of anything games we're going have to yeah

0:31
we're going to have to cut this part out Justin has no fun memories I have lots of fun memories I

0:37
just can't remember them yeah well

0:44
[Music] okay welcome to how I see it with me

0:51
Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a podcast that works to

0:56
countercultural polarization through thought ful [Music]

1:04
conversations hey welcome back to how I see it this is part two of the wives

1:09
episode where we have our first guest interview on the podcast and we start

1:14
with the VIPs our wives Megan and Chris

1:20
uh if you haven't yet listened to part one we encourage you to do that first you can find our most recent episodes by

1:26
going to how I see it.click recent without further Ado enjoy part

1:34
[Music] two so uh for you folks here to share a

1:40
fun memory yes one of the first fun memories of us

1:47
together was before we were together and we liked each other but we were kind of being shy and quiet about

1:53
it and then we did this play in school and we were the the love

2:01
Juliet yes oh cool i' actually call armis Brooks but close Okay I I had it

2:07
way up here I did I really did it was really fun and really terrifying and

2:13
just kind of hilarious that we were playing that I had to look longingly into each other's eyes and fake it so

2:20
was that a turning point for you Megan was this officially the to like like

2:25
possibly dating no okay well that was I think that we just got more

2:32
comfortable maybe being together looking longingly into each other's eyes yes yes

2:38
I got that certainly didn't hurt I mean I think I just knew okay I like him I mean this is for Real when we did that

2:44
play but that was before we were talking about it I mean yeah or

2:50
even we were hanging out though I don't remember well our relationship was this

2:55
complicated it was complicated cuz uh yeah I it might right before we were

3:01
really we knew we liked each other in that play okay right okay I did that you

3:08
knew I liked you yeah okay yeah yeah yeah and then we got to do lots of plays

3:16
together and I think that was really fun just singing and doing that kind of stuff together because of our our school

3:22
just did lots of drum we sang in a barber shop quartet together that was very making War a mustache I did mhm I

3:30
was the tener wow yeah so as you guys do

3:35
worship together quite often this is this is something you've really kind of tapped into from way back down kind of I

3:42
mean I think it definitely buildt it in both of us sure wow NE yeah it's a lot

3:47
different now than it was then but we did plays but we also did Ensemble which was like what eight person 10 person

3:57
like Coral group we call Ensemble and we would go to like State competitions and

4:04
you know yeah Chris is nodd in her head cuz she knows that yeah you came from your own Coral nice like that I'm

4:13
serious you know what singing in a group is like fun and we played Bells we did

4:18
Bells I did yeah I did that in the beginning but I didn't do it as long as you did but yeah that was fun to just

4:24
like fun memories then yes so you than for telling me memories now I remember

4:32
we used to get up really early and go to school and play basketball together yeah before school y wow that was really fun

4:39
yeah at the school like in the gym yeah our coach was there so yeah her her dad

4:44
your coach her dad no his coach yeah he worked at the school he's the youth pastor he kind of encouraged whoever

4:49
would come early too way to practice your skills or whatever okay we both made it happen yeah I may have knocked

4:56
her in the head a couple times many times that's not a fun memory so who is more

5:03
competitive of the two of you it's a good question you might be

5:11
tied you might I think it depends on the context I can let go against each other

5:18
uhhuh I think her maybe yeah really we also our

5:24
principal also called us into his office pretending like he was super mad at us you know this story

5:30
and he sat us down and then he turns on this song and starts laughing he turned

5:36
on um you say tomato I say tomato you said potato cuz he was teasing us cuz we

5:41
were always going back and forth to each other oh my word I can't that was like

5:47
one of your first marriage counseling sessions Rel relationship cuz we would

5:54
compete in grades like we would say what' you get on your test like we just were always competing

6:00
yeah we were which that played into our marriage too and then we realized we were on the same team that was easier

6:07
yeah sure but yeah and what was that turning point to be able to recognize that you were in competition with each

6:13
other but you what what made that I think it wasn't that long ago and I think it was when we learned to disagree

6:21
and like we weren't there wasn't someone that had to be right and someone that had to be wrong in a lot of things in a

6:26
lot of things like there's some things that maybe we need AG to disagree we need to figure out you know where we

6:33
stand but like there's just a lot of areas where we just really think way

6:38
differently about like you know what should we do with this plant should we

6:44
trim it back or not like we we could just like you know each have a different

6:49
opinion about it and that's okay yeah even though someone's probably right someone's probably wrong it's

6:56
probably you for the record it's probably Megan that's right that's just for the record that's not

7:02
actually what I say private this competitive side comes out

7:08
he do he has an opinion that's right that's right I think it's the stubbornness more than competitiveness

7:13
but yeah I guess they're similar yeah yeah we're both pretty competitive yeah

7:19
I like to think that's calmed down a lot at least to me I think years ago we we

7:24
decided that competing is really fun and not just to each other but but even like

7:29
playing anything it just isn't super important and we needed to just not care

7:35
quite as much if we want or lose at anything when I lost yeah I'd say a lot

7:41
of my competitive has tied directly into the self-esteem issues and so like losing meant loser right sure and uh so

7:50
it had more of an existential Pro you know struggle I can especially remember like basketball

7:55
games in high school just they would just wreck me if if we didn't do well

8:02
and if we didn't meet an expectation I remember one year we we hosted a tournament at our school every year it

8:08
was uh and this this I think it's yeah my senior year we were supposed to win

8:13
it cuz we had the senior you know we had a good crew and we got second this was

8:18
your year yes okay right second MH and you know that means you're the first

8:24
loser like we lost and I was just so mad wow like just just I still think about

8:31
that cuz I I'm pretty sure I like bowled up under a bench in the locker room and

8:37
I was just mad like just very very impacted by it I still think about that

8:43
all the time wow yeah it's weird one of those fun memories yeah fun

8:49
yeah yeah real fun um yeah fun memories I have so many fun memories with our

8:55
kids with each other with you know um and then you you also mentioned worship

9:00
and that's certainly I don't know fun is I mean fun is part of it but um just one

9:06
of the most meaningful activities that we get to do together to me is worship and that

9:14
wasn't something that was something I had to learn like that wasn't something we came into our marriage with like I

9:20
you know we did an ensemble or whatever but I I didn't I wasn't a musician really right

9:27
and so through the course of the years learn guitar and then started singing with her mhm mostly it's Celebrate

9:34
Recovery um and yeah just growing into that and getting that opportunity was

9:41
nice was really I taught him how to sing harmony by listening to the Dixie Chicks

9:46
that's right wow so they've got really good three-part Harmony so yep was easy

9:51
I sing lots of Dixie Chicks wow are they Point of Grace you remember

9:56
Point of Grace yeah okay yeah I can it's like whenever I they did have good yeah

10:01
whenever I hear ladies kind of do that Harmony I forgot about them yeah yeah

10:08
what's one what's one of their songing your favorite song I couldn't sing one but I keep

10:14
talking I'm going to f I'm not the singer our but yeah he fun memories you're

10:20
typically uh the memory I had that was stuck out that I thought you were going to share isn't really fun it was it was

10:27
a memory of our first year pretty much epitomizes our first year oh so I had an

10:33
apartment that I had had before and then Mark moved in after we got married Mark moved in with meh good

10:39
clarification yes and one day I came home from teaching from from work and

10:45
all the curtains were down like the whole front part of the house so you could see the street right yes and I did

10:55
that I was like what are you doing like I wanted to out yeah you know

11:00
so he started changing my Nest yeah it did not go over well it was it was a

11:06
shock to my system yes I can understand that now and uh yes that was just part of our first one one example of our

11:13
first year adjusting and yeah and it's it's at that point it's sool issues well

11:21
no I wasn't even saying that it was just it wasn't that I had a desire to clean

11:26
them and put them back it was when as I grew up you know you almost

11:32
set your clock by people going by the house you knew what time it was by you

11:38
know this person driving by the house you knew you had 10 more minutes before the bus would come because this person

11:45
was going by and so for me you know a house was a place you lived but you

11:51
still knew what was going on based on what was outside the windows and granted my family may have been overly involved

11:59
in knowing what was going on in I can admit that yeah Chris

12:05
isn't but at the same time you know that was an important thing for me and it's like to just see curtains I felt they

12:11
were they were sheer you know so you couldn't see through in and out okay you know they were they like dark it wasn't

12:18
dark it was just a p more of a privacy thing and and I think part of that is just part of the difference between us

12:25
it was one of the many it was you know it was claustrophobic to me almost to be in there it's kind of like when you're

12:30
driving down the road typically there's one of you who will ask to have the windshield wipers turned on you know

12:38
because you that's what you see yeah yeah on and it's like I can go a long

12:44
ways cuz I don't I just kind of look through them and I'm still out there but I understand where Chris is at sometimes

12:51
cuz she that's what she sees so it it's it does it is interesting because that's where the curtains came from was just

12:57
the desire to be able to see out and to be involved in you know who's going by

13:02
and if you wanted to say hey you know you walk out and say Hey you know that kind of thing so that's just been a a

13:08
part of our adjustment yeah fun mem so we move shortly after that to a neutral place

13:15
where it would be both of ours not mine makes sense that was good that was good that was one of our

13:22
first rough many adjustments adjustments for sure yeah we certainly had plenty of

13:29
of adjustments as well but I I do think like we got to do life in a closer

13:36
proximity for a longer time which and we learned how to be adults together yeah like kind of side by side you kind of

13:43
hinted at that you guys had gotten into your own little worlds and then came

13:48
together so then then you're having to Unbreak some of those habits or reset

13:53
some expectations where we didn't have any expectations yet you know we built

13:59
together really right yeah what would what were the expectations matter I mean

14:05
my expectations were just that our house and family would be like mine yeah oh wow sure that's kind of where the

14:12
curtains comes from for me I was trying to make her apartment like my house that I grew

14:20
up in too I yeah I can identify with that I think I think our first year though was

14:26
pretty um just happy cuz we were finally together and finally and we had just

14:32
been together so long and we were just ready for that yeah it was a good it was a good first year or two I mean yeah no

14:40
all been good but yeah it was rougher after the first year I wasn't saying we didn't have rough so

14:47
for the record how long have you guys been married just out of curiosity 17 yeah wow okay 17 years4 is when we got

14:55
married mhm yeah yeah that's neat yeah how about you got 25 yeah yeah yeah so really I mean the

15:03
whole scheme of things it's not that different is why I was asking as I see it from 17 to 25 not yeah it's eight

15:11
years yeah people are like well we make it to eight years that's a long time

15:17
yeah I know what you're saying but it is and I I think about it in that context it's it's basically just we're almost

15:22
like one life cycle stage ahead is really you are you have adolescent kids

15:29
and we're at that point of entering into young adulthood and I think not that there's I me there's a difference but

15:35
yeah it's not like there's a huge difference between us there's not a big gap there that's all so yeah yeah

15:43
yeah and yeah it's interesting too as the older you get the less that Gap

15:49
matters right if that makes sense I I see yeah you just think about it in high school one year is like huge yeah and

15:58
every year get further from that environment is like those years matter like you and I are friends but high

16:04
school like you would have been you know you were working a farm or Carpenter while I was we would have known each

16:10
other in high school yeah it's just interesting yeah which is interesting when you think about if we had known

16:16
each other I don't know if my 18-year-old Chris would have been

16:21
attracted to your 19-year-old Mark or vice versa you know I think the maturity that happened in those five or six years

16:28
hm prepared us better for each other we were different when we no doubt

16:35
we're still different but we're more used to it yeah

16:40
exactly you got your his and hers towels now that's good let not go

16:47
there are you using her towels no well

16:53
we yeah am I using your towel sometimes you do oh yes hang on hang on our our

17:01
bathroom towel no listen okay if we go to a as far as I know if we go to somebody's house to stay like my parents

17:07
house to stay or whatever you will use my towel yeah I will I don't like that wow yes I have a point of clarification

17:15
if we're away and this is why it surprises me because uh if we're away I

17:21
and Chris has had the opportunity to use a towel I have no problem like in a hotel or parents in a hotel or their

17:27
parents house cuz you know um you know they give you those little signs in a hotel that say be you know they give you

17:32
your own towel in the hotel yeah but they always put those little signs there that say save water they're going to

17:37
reuse the towels in the room yeah anything that's still folded I fig they

17:43
can reuse for the next person and it saves it being laundry do they do that see that's why I share a towel because I

17:52
don't want another towel just have to go into laundry and the same thing for my parents if we're going to leave it's

17:57
like why use five towels for four people that's that's why or Mark's thinking

18:04
someone uses towel last time folded it back and at least if that happened Chris

18:10
already used it and got those coties off it I have no problem with cooties well

18:15
his his excuse was always well I'm clean yeah that's true but it's still my towel

18:21
yeah yeah but this is the deal you have come such a long way in your ability to

18:26
share and that's why the towel comment actually surprised me because you've come such well there certain things I

18:32
don't like to share yeah and a towel is evidently one of them especially if it's so damp yes from yeah if it's just damp

18:40
it's got lots more use in it yeah if it's dripping wet then H you

18:47
might want to pass on and if someone's provided you your own towel why not use it it's just it's just it's another

18:53
thing if there's only one towel and you you're forced to use my towel I would share it at that point I'm a conservative person by Nature you to be

19:00
able to conserve on environment and water and yeah what else do you not want to share so here's the big thing but we

19:08
did come to a consensus yesterday at the house at our new house that we are renovating a yes Mark wanted our master

19:15
bath not to have a door like just to be open so you walk into like this desk

19:21
area the master bath would not have the door a door nor would the master bedroom have a door but the master this well way

19:29
out in the master suite would have so it have one door for all of it MH and that's where and that's where we live

19:35
yeah so anyway I wanted a door a pocket door on the bathroom just to what if

19:40
what if we had company and they had to use our bathroom right you want a door on the bathroom also you want it right

19:47
and also I want it yeah so I kind of like privacy is there a door for the toilet no that's and I need a door and

19:55
you need a door so we did we did yesterday you could say we need a door I I just

20:01
don't think he can I I still don't think he understands it he conceited to having a door but I don't think he really

20:08
understands the idea of privacy and my own space and I think for me the aspect

20:14
of it being the master suite you shut that door to the master suite and it

20:20
doesn't matter what you're doing whether you're still in bed whether you're using the restroom that door says nobody else goes

20:28
beyond it that's my perspective but yeah and the other thing too initially it was

20:34
going to be a space issue initially but we out we have resoled that to where now

20:40
she gets a pocket door for the bathroom and you know a swinging door here to where they all kind of overlap so yeah

20:46
it was it was it was a good team it was several weeks of like not agreeing and

20:51
him just not understanding the whole idea well I'm still a bathroom door yeah it's just one of those things that I

20:57
probably won't understand probably won't but we we have we also have a window in

21:02
that bathroom so you know so you can look out when people drive by you know

21:07
when people are coming your watch that's right that's right yes yeah so that was a compromise

21:15
as well it was yeah so but I will say you share your space much better than you used to I will say that I think the

21:22
reason I share better is because of of CR and helping me with my control issu

21:29
like realizing that I really don't have control and so there's no use me continuing to try to take control

21:36
because it's not healthy for me or our marriage yeah the whole point so I would say the last what three or four years

21:43
maybe have been much better yeah because I haven't been so controlling yeah and I

21:49
and I will I will say as we even uh as we think about um possibly the most

21:55
difficult era of our relationship ship if we were you know kind of answer with

22:01
with that I I would say I'm I'm not I think about that because I think one of

22:08
the more difficult um dynamics of our

22:13
relationship came later on with the Adolescent kids to a certain degree when that we

22:21
recognize that control isn't something we have anymore you know well we really

22:26
didn't have it to begin with we just had an illusion of valid point but I think um that was

22:34
difficult although I would say every every stage has been better for me as as

22:40
a as us but yeah I think it was a turning when we began to have adolescent

22:47
kids because it we recognized we did we were losing the the thoughts the the

22:54
idea that we had of us having control and I think it was difficult but it also

23:00
brought us to an aspect of recognizing how important prayer is in our relationship to be able to when we don't

23:08
have that control to recognize yes we can still have influence by prayer and

23:15
that's even more beneficial sure but I think that would so I I would say if we

23:21
were answering that question to a certain degree what was the most difficult and when would we grow the

23:26
most I would say they were both the the same time for me although I think it was at the same time but I think for me the

23:32
most difficult part of our marriage was when you switched careers so what mid midlife career

23:41
change into marriage and family therapy yes um so you got into a rhythm right so

23:49
the first 10 15 years this was our this was our reality this is how we did things you would tell me things I would

23:55
tell you things we would know what you what we're doing we would would argue and we would each have an

24:00
equal input right so when he becomes a marriage and family therapist in my mind

24:07
he then becomes the professional relationship person and I don't I have

24:12
less um valued influence and secondly I never at that

24:18
point I didn't know who he was with or you know because of the

24:24
confidentiality which I had a really hard time working through now it was it wasn't as much of a trust thing I was

24:30
like this is a new way of doing things we've never done it this way before it was it was if anything it seemed like we

24:37
had secrets well it's I think which we never did it's like bringing the bathroom door conversation back Mark's

24:45
not a bathroom door kind of person but in this line of work he's required

24:51
legally to have that door with a lock right and not let you in so for you

24:58
that's like a version of mar you've never seen and you don't see any other

25:03
way that's fascinating to me it took us several you don't want a bathroom door

25:08
oh but I do on my terms though yeah that's F I would say that

25:14
was really a a tough time for for me in our marriage because I everything was turned upside down I didn't know what

25:20
was what and I can respect fair to talk about what wasn't fair to talk about if I had an opinion well he's the

25:27
professional do I really have a valid opinion to share or he says it this is

25:33
the way it should be you know kind of that whole idea of psychoanalyzing me you know early on he would say hey I

25:40
want you to read chapter8 in this book I just read that did not go over well that

25:46
was that was early on but and I think I think even part of that was you know a

25:52
curiosity from the learning perspective but at the same time it didn't and and and I think that process too um I think

26:01
was hard for me to even understand like the bathroom door because I didn't see

26:07
who I was changing I realized the secret part as we talk about it you know now

26:12
was a part of it but it was to the point of I didn't understand Chris's

26:18
change you know to the point of I still saw us as very much equals and the fact

26:26
that I had a degree or even a license now it really didn't matter to me but

26:32
yet that did do something as far as you were concerned in a from a hierarchy

26:38
standpoint and it's and a security insecurity maybe increased the insecurity because it changed how you

26:45
see it it didn't change how he saw it right right you know what I'm saying I saw myself and my opinions as less

26:54
valuable essential necessary less correct yeah because you had the you had

27:00
the correct textbook you had the book that's and yeah that that was one of

27:06
those things that I really so when we when we would have an argument I would pretty much shut down was like well I

27:12
don't really I don't really have an opinion you're the professional you tell me you know I kind of I buil pull out the sarcasm to be honest yeah and say

27:19
like whatever you say but was it humorous oh no I'm just kidding it definitely was not yeah yeah so anyway I

27:27
think that was the Point yeah so I have I have um empathy for people who change

27:33
careers midlife CU I think it is hard to get used to a way of doing things and then it all gets changed but no M no

27:41
matter what career it is it doesn't have to be therapy it could be anything but you have a way of doing something and

27:47
then it just all gets turned upside down so it change frequently and often and then it's less of an issue suppose

27:54
that well I mean it's ironic cuz you are going through some transitions now building a farmouse and potentially

28:01
shifting away from some you know construction to some degree so there's some of that maybe

28:09
yeah but but you but the experience that you went through no doubt has gained you

28:14
some you both of you some tools or whatever sure for whatever transitions might occur and not to mention your kids

28:22
leaving you're moving out and growing up those are transitions too yeah but you're kind of doing it together nesting

28:28
thing right like yeah yeah yeah I just said they're kind of doing

28:35
it together now the changes yeah instead of just one and I think I have a better outlook on his career

28:42
like so you know when our kids are 18 and I'm pulling my hair and I'm like Mark help you know he's got he then

28:48
pulls these things out of his book saying I analyze my kids you could you

28:54
do I don't think you Psy but you just have a way of working things that I'm

29:00
thankful for right so it came full circle to where you're like yeah I'm I'm appreciative now yeah I'm also

29:06
appreciative of skills yeah yeah not only his therapy

29:12
skills but his construction skills it's all coming in I'm grateful that God gave them all those skills you

29:18
go depending on the day right yeah most days every day yeah and now was sweet

29:24
podcasting skills oh they're growing but y all have a good thing going here

29:29
yeah but I'm proud of you both thank you well thank you yeah so what about you

29:35
folks what would you say was the most difficult I I was thinking about that

29:42
and I think there's probably a few things that come to mind but I think for it was mostly times where she or I were

29:51
hung up in something on her own which caused distance right cuz I

29:57
mean I think about you know something you've talked about is right after Joseph was born right MH and it really

30:04
she was in our own world and the same thing like um there

30:11
are some times where career and things weren't going the way I wanted or whatever and I started to

30:17
become kind of caught up in that and depression kind of came in self-esteem all and it was like my own world and

30:24
same thing like our relationship started to suffer because because in each casee

30:30
we were dealing with we we were separate you know in our

30:35
yeah yeah and so like working through that and recognizing that that was contributing

30:43
to even our own struggles over here in our in our in our own world was the fact

30:48
that we didn't have the same support and love that we typically would have

30:54
because we right yeah yeah I think in the past we've kind of almost removed

31:02
ourself away to like help the other person almost or like we didn't want to

31:09
bring like I didn't want to bring you into it so I just moved my struggles

31:15
away and tried to deal with them on my own and I think that you definitely have

31:20
done that over the years too or I just don't know how to help you so I'm going

31:25
to give you space yeah and so and we both have

31:32
always struggled with the impulse to try and fix the problem right like if you come to me

31:40
with your issues well I'm going to help you solve it let's let's be pragmatic about this and let's solve it and that's

31:48
useful sometimes sure not every time you know and so I think part of maybe it was

31:56
a growth trajectory of that's probably not going to work right now so I'll just be quiet or I'll

32:03
disparate or I won't or vice versa I won't go to them with this because

32:09
they'll just try and fix it and I know they don't have the answers I need so

32:14
it's better to just avoid that whole thing and I do think like we're slowly

32:21
learning the value of listening and not fixing and or just being clear which

32:28
thing we want and or which thing we're doing right like or saying I can't hear

32:35
you keep talking about your issue if I'm

32:40
not allowed to speak into it so you need to find help you need to go talk to Mark

32:46
on the podcast not on the podcast but like I've said that to you I'm like I need you to

32:52
go talk to somebody and I have as well right yeah cuz we're yeah recognizing

32:58
because I can't take this on I was thinking about that from even

33:04
do you think in some ways that factors into that that sense of competition and winning as I think about it you know

33:10
it's like how do you how do we if someone accepts my help and I can

33:17
help that's a win but yet to just sit and be doesn't

33:24
seem at times like we're doing yeah I think it's more about control for

33:30
me or or Comfort yeah it's about seeing our

33:36
partner in any kind of discomfort brings discomfort to me and so I want to I want

33:42
to be comfortable again so yeah to solve their problem I think it has more to do with that like we are notoriously bad at

33:49
when when either one of us is sick okay we're just not like very we're better

33:54
we're a lot better both of us we would not be good nurses no we're just we didn't have compassion like just take a

34:01
pill our role was you cannot tell me if you that you feel sick unless you've

34:07
already like taken Advil or started to try and help yourself get better like I don't want to hear about it I don't want

34:13
to hear you whine about it if you haven't done anything take a nap drink water take

34:20
an and it's very much yes and we're fine with it equal yeah well we now we like

34:27
Purp L try to Baby each other we working it is nice nurture yeah nurt yeah yeah

34:34
we're not nurturing we're not very nurturing to each other Megan is very nurturing to our children I will say

34:40
it's not like an inherent flaw in Megan but just yeah together we I think yeah

34:47
that could be the competitive thing I don't know I don't know why I don't know why yeah it's interesting it's just

34:52
interesting to think about yeah yeah yeah and we don't like hold it against each other cuz we're well I do it to you

34:59
too you know like or don't do it if it's yeah can we spend that last question can

35:05
we do it can we spin the last question yeah sure so we just talked about the most difficult time in your marriage

35:10
what was what's the best Time season it's good of your marriage in the podcast in a positive note yeah I don't

35:18
know what's good yeah yeah if you know yours go first yeah I was going to say if we're uh catching you guys off guard

35:25
did you did you yeah that F that positive part I would say now would be a

35:31
probably would you go ahead your you're entitled two years I would say because

35:36
of um being able to work together in marriage Ministry it's uh kind of a sweet spot

35:43
for us yeah and being emptiness is is an interesting transition mhm yeah no doubt

35:50
so I think now I I'm happy to say that probably this is one of the up higher

35:56
Peaks yeah yes no I I I would agree it right now and and I think like I said

36:02
earlier you know I think for me each stage of our relationship and and

36:07
raising our family has just been better all the while and I and it's and I was

36:13
thinking about the other day because even though we're coming into the empty nest type Dynamic um what was

36:23
once uh valuable time which has always been valuable time with our kids you

36:29
know and coming into empty nest I miss that interaction and you know when I'm like when we're playing ultimate Frisby

36:35
i' miss both my kids but yet I'm also at this point where I'm I'm just um I want

36:42
a different word than proud because it's not about me and them but I just recognize

36:49
how content I am to have our kids going out and doing what we've raised them to

36:56
do and become healthy young adults and I think that has its own reward if you

37:02
will you know to be able to see them going out and doing and you know and

37:08
leading and yeah forging their own faith and yeah a lot of those things yeah so I

37:14
think this is our sweetest time and granted you know working on the the property and that kind of thing has been

37:20
wonderful to have some time there with both the kids you know in their own sweet spots But ultimately you know

37:26
they've kind of gone and now they're doing their own things and creating their own lives and you and I are still

37:32
there and able to work together and it's not like we've had exchanged

37:38
relationship with them and we feel like we need to move off with them because we're still us and I think it does get

37:44
sweeter and there's opportunity to be us more so yeah yeah so I yeah I would I

37:50
would agree we've solved the bathroom door issue that is so good

37:58
you better wait till the door is in we'll still need a towel holder for two towels to be continued on the door yes

38:06
it's going to be a pocket door it's going to be a pocket door he's like it's there trust me I wrote it on the

38:12
subfloor yesterday okay oh now it's official still a pencil I told I said the contractor

38:20
might forget but I'm going to write it here on the floor just so he doesn't the

38:26
yes that's mhm well so what do you all think yeah your answer is a good one for us

38:33
too we're kind of we feel we were shaking or nodding our head together and

38:38
that sounded very similar to where we're at right yeah I think we've had lots of

38:43
like ups and downs like the first maybe even like 14 15 years of our

38:50
marriage you know like really high highs and you know kind of low lows and

38:56
middles and all that but like I feel like now we put in a lot of work with

39:02
like how we communicate with each other and how we care for each other and so now

39:07
um it kind of like has stabilized to like a really peaceful

39:14
joyful like choice that we make every day to have a good marriage a good relationship instead of just like oh I

39:20
hope today's a good day you know like I don't know or like what's going on I don't have no idea like I just just feel

39:27
like we were just learning for so long and just falling into just a really like

39:35
strong desire to be there for each other and communicate well and and have fun

39:41
together and parenting together when we're on the same team with parenting now I think more than or like tag

39:48
teaming it at least sure lot of tag teaming and I if I may I give you guys

39:54
credit uh for figuring that out because I I'll say I think it I I'll be

40:00
honest as far as my thoughts I would say we probably didn't figure that out till probably year 18 20 maybe I'd say

40:09
20 and you know but yeah we've gotten to that point where it's almost like this

40:15
is the the benefit of continuing to work and to continue to learn and to challenge and continuing to come back

40:22
together even in that time when you feel when you know there's the thought of well

40:28
I'll just go my own way you know kind of in that separation thing not that it becomes a a complete separation but you

40:34
know yeah going away from one another versus turning towards one another and I

40:39
think as we turn towards one another even in those difficult times I think

40:45
you know now is the blessing for we're we're experiencing reaping the reward for doing so and I give you guys credit

40:51
for figuring that out at 15 you know years in cuz I yeah you're five years

40:57
head of the curve as far as assuming it's figured it out figured out I mean well I mean it's it's better it sounds

41:03
than it was we don't know how far we are in it but yeah no I just that's what I I

41:09
guess that's what I mean I'm not sure how high this peak goes but yeah you know um yeah and I would I would say I

41:18
don't know just a BAL I feel like we've had so many great

41:23
years and moments and whatever and then some occasional down times I definitely don't feel like it was

41:28
equal Peaks and valleys I feel like well I was just saying it was kind of more of a roller coaster

41:35
ride yeah yeah I agree a roller co go ahead a roller coaster that has

41:41
continued to climb though you have the Downs yeah that's what it's not all at

41:47
the same level and we're coming back to the beginning at the same level you're going there's ups and downs but

41:53
ultimately we're continuing to climb yeah it was kind of like a free for all like let's hope we can make it you know

42:01
and just like guessing a lot of guessing I I really think so like and like how we talked with each other and and we just

42:08
like slowly bu I guess yes slowly climbing up like even with the but um

42:14
but I think now we like are very purposeful in having a good relationship and I think we do a lot more towards

42:21
that instead of just like you know yeah hoping it works out I think when you say

42:27
hoping it works out not the marriage that but I know but I think it's very important to say that you don't mean we

42:34
were like oh marriage is on the Rocks we might not make it pull up pull up pull we might not no we've always been will

42:41
this be a good day or a bad day or will will this yeah yeah will they respond

42:46
okay to this or will I respond but we you know our marriage oh yeah it's been

42:52
good overall that's what I was trying to say is like despite the struggles

42:57
we have always had a really great relationship yes but we've also you know we're humans so we struggled but but

43:04
yeah and then like kind of like what you were saying us doing Ministry together Celebrate Recovery doing worship

43:10
together has just been so impactful for our marriage in terms of just yeah

43:17
looking together at the same thing mhm you know what I'm saying because sometimes we get so focused on looking

43:23
at our own thing or at each other and like all the towels wet or what you know it's like we're just staring at each

43:29
other and the differences but if we can just align our vision towards a common thing sometimes that in marriage that's

43:36
parenting right and that can be good for a long time but then kids go off it's like oh crap now we're looking at each other again it's a problem um and so I

43:43
think it's so important to have something to look at together I do think kids is important part of that but what

43:51
but also other things and for I think that's been really impactful for us and

43:56
we would come home Friday nights and Friday nights after Celebrate Recovery when we get home was some of our

44:01
favorite I mean fun memories right those were fun for me cuz we would sit on the couch we just enjoy each other's company

44:07
we'd kind of decompress about the evening how things went and you know sometimes it was like a little hard cuz

44:12
it didn't go great so we kind of hashed through that or whatever but ultimately those Friday nights have just been so

44:19
positive for us MH to to just sit on the couch together and look at a thing together and talk about it um creating a

44:26
vision yes yeah yeah shared Vision um but yeah

44:32
so I'd say definitely right now I think like you said it continues climbing because you

44:38
you gain new ground and you know if you're doing life right and you're not

44:44
willing to give that ground up like we got this far let's let's we at least know this about each other you know like

44:50
and we're not going back from this like we now know like you love me enough that

44:56
this is true so you know like this is okay you know whatever that thing is and we can next time we have a a fight or

45:02
whatever we we don't have to fall past this point and I think that's that's been really valuable for us too cuz

45:08
we're gaining new ground and new insight based on now we have a new platform to

45:14
stand on like new understanding and yeah and even each one of those little

45:20
difficult not not a little diff but even if they're big difficulties it is adding to that intimacy that you guys share you

45:27
come to an understanding of each other in a way that you didn't before you know through that conflict and so now it's

45:34
not like that downturn if you will the the you know when when your stomach is going up to your you know it's like oh

45:41
here we go but I do like that part of our roller coaster you do but in a marriage it's not always

45:48
fun but yeah at that point you can say okay this is an opportunity and we're

45:53
going to we're going to we're going to work through this and we're going to come out the other side knowing one another better yeah and I think that's

45:59
really important like you know for the listeners to hear because like marriage

46:05
is really hard and it's really wonderful but like if you're expecting it not to

46:10
be hard or if you're expecting not to have to put in your best effort MH like you you have to and you'll have bad days

46:18
and good days and but it will keep getting better especially like as you

46:24
and I have put in the work to make it better and I guess what I was saying earlier is just not just hoping it's

46:30
going to get better and like just like you know um kind of aimlessly going along but like actually working towards

46:38
understanding when you say this to me and I take it as the wrong thing you

46:44
know but you didn't even mean that and like even those little things that we work out so that we understand each

46:51
other better just like make everything so much better and does make it climb and um yeah I don't know I guess I just

46:59
always want to like I feel like we have a wonderful marriage and I love it and

47:06
like but I see like my friends who struggle and like you know I've had

47:11
people say oh I want to have a relationship like you and I want them to

47:16
too but like you do have to put in a lot of work you can't just like hope like you can't say like oh he's the wrong guy

47:23
or whatever I we're going into a whole another thing no but I think we work hard every day and usually it's fun all

47:31
the work and I think it's important to know you work hard individually too yeah yeah I mean I

47:38
think there were many years when I always blamed you know I pointed the finger of him I'm not happy because of

47:44
you yeah and when you start taking responsibility for your own stuff MH you know you get healthier

47:52
and when you get healthier then the marriage gets healthier yeah but when you keep pointing fingers and Y know

47:59
we're never going to get out of this cycle there's no hope I mean you got to start with yourself are you sure you

48:04
ladies don't want to start a podcast yeah now she sees it cuz that was a that

48:09
was a that was a great good yeah we we can come back another time yeah what did

48:15
you hear that just one more time write it down just one well just cuz I feel like there's more to say and I kind of

48:21
opened up the can of worms I think and that's okay thank you for sharing and good yeah

48:27
and yeah because we need to come back to that even in some ways how do we you know I think we can be here and it's and

48:33
it's good and yet how do we offer that hope yeah in some ways for somebody

48:39
that's at year seven and you know and and you know that incentive to create that hard work you know because I and I

48:47
think at times you know it can seem as if we're working as hard as we can yeah

48:52
you know and it still seems like you know at times we're struggling so I think this is a good uh yeah opportunity

49:01
to make a segue maybe but uh just uh that being said I want to appreci I want to thank both of you ladies for uh

49:07
joining us and giving us the opportunity to uh see life how you see it see the

49:13
podcast and letting the listeners see life how you see it like for real I appreciate you guys coming on and being

49:20
willing I know it's a little like intimidating when you walked in here and shoved a microphone in your face and but

49:28
you guys are awesome yes we appreciate you you guys are too yeah so this is how we see

49:34
[Music] it hey thank you for listening to our

49:41
podcast if you like how I see it please do all the things that podcasts tell you

49:47
to do subscribe rate review follow us uh

49:52
and or talk nicely about us on social media if you want to reach

49:57
the email is us how I see it.click yep I said doclick as in c c k please

50:09
tell your friends about this show and we'll see you on the next one

50:14
[Music]