Mark:

So if uh for you folks, care to share a fun memory yes. Or Chris even, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to

Justin:

I don’t have any fun memory.

Meagan:

I was gonna let you go first. I want to hear your fun memory.

Justin:

Oh I can’t think of it.

Mark:

Games isn’t one of them.

Justin:

Yeah, we’re gonna have to cut this part out. Justin has no fun memories. I have lots of fun memories. I just can’t remember them.

Meagan:

Yeah. Oh well. Okay.

Mark:

Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg.

Justin:

This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations. Hey, welcome back to How I See It. This is part two of the Wives episode where we have our first guest interview on the podcast and we start with the VIPs, our wives, Megan and Chris. If you haven’t yet listened to part one,

we encourage you to do that first. You can find our most recent episodes by going to howiseeit.click slash recent Without further ado, enjoy part two.

Mark:

So if uh for you folks, if you care to share a fun memory

Meagan:

One of the first fun memories of us together was before we were together and we liked each other but we were kind of being shy and quiet about it and then we did this play in school.

Justin:

Mm

Meagan:

and we were the the love story in the play.

Mark:

Julia.

Meagan:

Yes.

Mark:

Oh cool. It

Justin:

actually called Armist Brook but close.

Mark:

Okay. I really did.

Meagan:

It was really fun and really terrifying. And Just kind of hilarious that we were playing.

Justin:

We had to look longingly into each other’s eyes and fake it.

Mark:

So was that a turning point for you, Megan? Was this officially the to like light? Possibly dating?

Meagan:

No. Oh okay. Well, that was I think that we just got more comfortable maybe being together.

Mark:

Looking longingly into each other’s eyes.

Meagan:

Yes.

Mark:

Yeah, I gotcha.

Meagan:

I mean I think I just knew okay, I like him. I mean this is for real when we did that play buttons.

Justin:

That was before we were Talking about it. I mean

Meagan:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, or even

Meagan:

We were hanging out though.

Justin:

I don’t remember. Well I’m not sure

Mark:

our relationship was this complicated.

Justin:

It was complicated because uh Yeah. I don’t

Meagan:

It might have been right before we were really

Justin:

we We knew we liked each other in that play.

Meagan:

Okay.

Justin:

Right?

Meagan:

Okay. I did.

Justin:

But you knew I liked you?

Meagan:

Yeah.

Justin:

Okay.

Meagan:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Meagan:

Yeah. And then we got to do lots of plays together. And I think that was really fun. Just singing and doing that kind of stuff together. Because of our our school just did lots. We sang in a barbershop quartet together. That was very good.

Justin:

Megan wore a mustache.

Meagan:

I did. I was the tenor.

Mark:

Wow.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So as you guys do worship together quite often, this is this is something you’ve really kind of tapped into from way back then.

Meagan:

Kind of. I mean I think it definitely built it in both of us for sure.

Mark:

Wow. Me.

Meagan:

Yeah. It’s a lot different now than it was then, but

Justin:

we did plays but we also did ensemble, which was like What? Eight person, ten person like choral group we called ensemble, and we would go to s like state competitions and You know.

Mark:

Yeah. Chris is nodding her head ’cause she knows that. Yeah. You you came from your own choral

Justin:

nice.

Chris:

Not like that.

Mark:

Well seriously you know what singing in a group is like, yeah.

Meagan:

Yes, nice.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

And

Meagan:

we play bells.

Justin:

I did yeah, I did that in the beginning, but I didn’t do it as long as you did. But yeah, that was fun too. Just like doing that. So we just fun

Mark:

memories then?

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

So you thank you for telling me my memories now I

Justin:

fucking remember.

Meagan:

And we uh we used to get up really early and go to school and play basketball together.

Justin:

Yeah.

Meagan:

Before school.

Mark:

Wow.

Meagan:

That was really

Justin:

Yeah.

Meagan:

At the school, like in the gym.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Heard her dad? Your coach heard.

Justin:

No, his coach was.

Meagan:

Yeah, he worked at the school. He’s the youth pastor.

Justin:

He kind of encouraged whoever would come early to other people would too practice your skills or whatever.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

We both made it happen.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I may have knocked her in the head a couple times.

Meagan:

Many times. Yeah.

Justin:

That’s not a fun memory, but

Mark:

so who is more competitive of the two of you?

Justin:

It’s a good question. We might be tied? You might I think it depends on the context.

Meagan:

I can let go

Justin:

against each other nicer

Meagan:

Maybe.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Really?

Meagan:

We also our principal also called us into his office pretending like he was super mad at us. know the story. And he sat us down and then he turns on this song. And starts laughing. He turned on um you say tomato, I say tomato. He said potato Because he was teasing us because we were always going back and forth to each other. Oh my word.

Mark:

Sounds like one of your first marriage Counseling sessions.

Meagan:

Because we would compete in grades, like we would say what you get on your tests. Like we just were always competing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Meagan:

We were Which that played into our marriage too and then we realized we were on the same team. That was easier.

Mark:

Yeah, sure.

Meagan:

But yeah.

Justin:

And what was that turning point?

Mark:

To be able to recognize that you weren’t in competition with each other But you what made that

Meagan:

w I think it wasn’t that long ago and I think it was when we learned to disagree.

Justin:

And like

Meagan:

we weren’t there wasn’t someone that had to be right and someone that had to be wrong in a lot of things. In a lot of things Like there’s some things that maybe we need to figure out we need to figure out, you know, where we stand, but like there’s just a lot of areas where we just really think way differently

Justin:

about

Meagan:

like you know what should we do with this plant should we trim it back or not? Like we We could just like, you know, each have a different opinion about it and that’s okay.

Justin:

Yeah.

Meagan:

Even though someone’s probably right. Someone’s probably wrong.

Justin:

It’s probably For the record, it’s probably Megan that’s right. That’s just for the record. That’s not actually what I do. Private. This

Mark:

competitive side comes out a little more and he does a he has an opinion. That’s right. That’s right.

Justin:

Yeah, I think it’s the stubbornness more than competitiveness, but yeah. I guess they’re similar.

Meagan:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. We’re both pretty competitive.

Meagan:

Yeah.

Justin:

I like to think that’s calmed down a lot, at least to me.

Meagan:

I think years ago we we decided that competing is really fun. And not just to each other, but even like playing anything. It just isn’t super important and we needed to just not care quite as much if we wanted or lose.

Justin:

Oh

Meagan:

at anything, won or lost.

Justin:

Yeah, I’d say a lot a lot of my competitiveness tied directly into the self-esteem issues and so it’s like losing meant loser, right? Like

Mark:

sure.

Justin:

And uh so it it had more of an existential pro you know, struggle. I guess especially remember like basketball games in high school, just they would just wreck me if if we didn’t do well.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

if we didn’t meet an expectation. I remember one year we we hosted a tournament at our school every year. It was uh in this w this I think it was yeah, my senior year. We were supposed to win it ’cause we had the senior you know, we had a good crew and we got second.

Mark:

This was your year.

Justin:

Yes.

Meagan:

Okay.

Justin:

Right, second. And you know that means you you’re the first loser. Like we lost and I was just so mad

Meagan:

Wow.

Justin:

And like just I just I still think about that. Cause I I’m pretty sure I like bowled up under a bench in the locker room and I was just mad. like just very, very impacted by it. And I still think about that all the time.

Mark:

Wow.

Justin:

Yeah. That’s weird.

Mark:

One of those fun memories.

Justin:

Yeah, fun. Yeah, I mean that’s Yeah, fun memories. I have so many fun memories with our kids, with each other, with you know um and then you you also mentioned worship and that’s certainly I don’t know if fun is the I mean fun is part of it, but um just one of the most meaningful activities that we get to do together to me is worshiping that wasn’t something that was something I had to learn. Like that wasn’t something we came into our marriage with. Like I you know, we did an ensemble or whatever, but I I didn’t leave I wasn’t a musician Really. Right. And so through the course of the years learned guitar and then started singing with her. Mostly in Celebrat Recovery. Um And yeah, just growing into that and getting that opportunity was

Mark:

nice.

Justin:

It’s really I

Meagan:

taught ’em how to sing harmony by listening to the Dixie Chicks.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

Wow.

Meagan:

So they’ve got really good three part harmony. So

Justin:

I’m seeing lots of Dixie chicks.

Mark:

Wow. Are they in Point of Grace? Did you remember Point of Grace?

Meagan:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay, yeah, I can remember that.

Meagan:

They did have a good

Mark:

Yeah, whenever I hear ladies kind of do that harmony.

Meagan:

Yeah. Oh I forgot about them.

Mark:

Yeah, yeah.

Meagan:

What’s one

Justin:

what’s one of those things? I’m trying to think of your favorite song. I couldn’t sing it.

Mark:

I couldn’t sing But I can I

Meagan:

keep talking, I’m gonna find one.

Mark:

I’m not the singer. But yeah. Any fun memories? You’re typically uh

Chris:

Well the the memory I had that was stuck out that I thought you were going to share isn’t really fun. It was it was a memory of our first year, pretty much epitomizes our first year. So I had an apartment that I had had before and then Mark moved in after I got married, Mark moved in with me.

Mark:

Good clarification.

Chris:

Yes. And One day I came home from teaching from from work and all the curtains were down like the whole front part of the house. So you could see the street, right?

Mark:

Yes

Chris:

And

Mark:

I did that.

Chris:

I was like, well what are you doing? I was like, well I wanted to see out.

Justin:

Yeah.

Chris:

You know, so he started changing my nest.

Meagan:

Yeah.

Chris:

It did not go over well.

Justin:

Yeah.

Chris:

It was like it was a shock to my system. And uh that was just part of our first one one uh example of our first year adjusting and

Mark:

yeah And it it’s it’s at that point it’s so minimized. Well no, I wasn’t even saying that. It was just it wasn’t that I had a desire to clean them and put them back. It was When as I grew up, you know, you almost set your clock by people going by the house You knew what time it was by, you know, this person driving by the house. You knew you had ten more minutes before the bus would come because this person was going by. And so for me, you know, a house was a place you lived, but you still knew what was going on based on what was outside the windows. And granted my family may have been overly involved in knowing what was going on in it. I can admit that. Yeah, Chris is a good. But at the same time, you know, that was an important thing for me. And it’s like to just see curtains, I I felt I They were

Chris:

they were sheer, you know, so you couldn’t see through in and out.

Justin:

Okay. Yeah.

Chris:

So they were like dark. It wasn’t dark, it was just a pri more of a privacy thing

Mark:

And I and I think part of that is just part of the difference between us. It was

Chris:

one of the many.

Mark:

It was you know it was claustrophobic to me almost to be in there. It’s kind of like when you’re driving down the road Typically there’s one of you who will ask to have the windshield wipers turned on, you know, because it you that’s what you see

Justin:

Yeah yeah.

Mark:

And it’s like I can go a long ways because I don’t I just kind of look through them and I’m still out there, but I understand where Chris is at sometimes because she that’s what she sees So it it’s it does it is interesting because that’s where the curtains came from was just the desire to be able to see out and to be involved in you know and who’s going by and if you wanted to say hey, you know, you walk out and say hey, you know, that kind of thing So that’s just been a a part of our adjustment. Yeah. Fun number.

Chris:

So we moved shortly after that to a neutral place where it would be both of ours, not mine.

Meagan:

Yeah.

Chris:

So

Meagan:

that makes sense.

Chris:

That was good.

Mark:

Yeah, it was good.

Chris:

That was one of our first rough rough.

Mark:

One of many adjustments.

Justin:

Yeah. We certainly had plenty of adjustments. adjustments as well, but I I do think like we got to do life in a closer proximity for a longer time.

Meagan:

And we learned how to be adults together.

Justin:

Yeah.

Meagan:

Like

Mark:

kind of

Meagan:

side by side.

Justin:

You kind of hinted at you guys had gotten into your own little worlds and then came together. So then you then you’re having to unbreak some of those habits or reset some expectations where we didn’t have any expectations yet. You know

Meagan:

we had expectations

Justin:

where we built them together, really. Right?

Meagan:

Yeah.

Mark:

What what would what would the expectations matter?

Meagan:

I mean my expectations were just that our house and family would be like mine.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Oh wow, sure. For me. I was trying to make her apartment like my house that I grew up in too. Yeah, I can identify with that.

Meagan:

I think I think our first year though was pretty um just happy because we were finally Together and finally we’re and we’ve just been together so long and we were just ready for that.

Justin:

Yeah, it was a good it was a good first year or two. I mean good, but yeah. I think but I think there was

Meagan:

it was rougher after the first year. I wasn’t saying we shouldn’t have rough.

Mark:

So for the record, how long have you guys been married? Just out of curiosity

Justin:

Seventeen?

Meagan:

Yeah.

Justin:

Seventeen years? Two thousand four or something we got married.

Meagan:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Let’s see.

Justin:

Yeah. How about you guys?

Mark:

Twenty-five.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. So it really, I mean the whole scheme of things, it’s not that different is what I was asking.

Justin:

Uh-huh.

Mark:

As I see it from 17 to 25. Yeah.

Justin:

It’s eight years.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Some people are like, well we make it to eight years. That’s a long time.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I know what you’re saying.

Mark:

But it is, and I I think about it in that context. It’s it’s basically just We’re almost like one life cycle stage ahead is really. Yeah. You have adolescent kids and we’re at that point of entering into young adulthood. And I I think not that there’s I mean there’s a difference, but yeah, it’s not like there’s a huge difference between us. There’s not a big gap there, as well.

Chris:

So yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. And yeah, it’s interesting too as the older you get the less that gap matters, right? If that makes sense. I

Mark:

I see what yeah.

Justin:

Well you just think about it in high school, one year is like Like huge. And every year you get further from that environment. It’s like those years matter. Like you and I are friends, but high school like you would have been You know. You were working a farm or carpentering while I was still

Mark:

known each other.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Which is interesting.

Mark:

Yeah.

Chris:

Which is interesting when you think about if we had known each other. I don’t know if my eighteen year old Chris would have been attracted to my your 19-year-old Mark or vice versa. I think the maturity that happened in those five or six years prepared us better for each other We were different when we were younger.

Mark:

No doubt. We’re still different, but we’re more used to it.

Justin:

You got your his and hers towels now.

Chris:

Let’s not even go there.

Meagan:

Are you using her towels?

Mark:

No. Oh? Well, we Yeah, am I using your towel?

Chris:

Sometimes you do. Oh

Justin:

well

Chris:

yes. So

Mark:

our bathroom hang on, hang on. Our our bathroom towel?

Chris:

No, listen

Mark:

Okay.

Chris:

If we go to a hotel

Mark:

as far as I know.

Chris:

If we go to somebody’s house to stay, like my parents’ house to stay or whatever, you will use my towel.

Mark:

Yeah, I will.

Chris:

I don’t like that.

Mark:

Whoa. Yes. I have a point of clarification. If we’re away, and this is why it surprises me, because uh if we’re away, and Chris has had the opportunity to use the towel, I have no problem

Chris:

Like in a hotel or a parents’

Mark:

hotel or their parents’ house ’cause you know, um you know, they give you those little signs in a hotel that say be you know

Chris:

they give you your own towel in a hotel.

Mark:

Yeah, but they always put those little signs there that say save water.

Meagan:

They’re gonna reuse the towels in the room.

Mark:

Yeah, anything that’s still folded, I figure they can reuse for the next person and it saves it being laundry.

Meagan:

Do they do that?

Mark:

That’s why I share a towel Because I don’t want another towel just have to go into laundry. And the same thing for my parents. If we’re gonna leave, it’s like why use five towels for four people? That’s that’s why

Justin:

or Mark’s thinking someone used this tumble last time folded it back and at least if that happened Chris already used it and got my cooties off it.

Mark:

I have no problem with cooties.

Chris:

Well his his excuse was always, well I’m clean.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That’s true.

Chris:

But it’s still my towel.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. But this is the deal. You have come such a long way in your ability to share. And that’s why the towel comment actually almost surprised me Because you’ve come such a little bit of a little bit more.

Chris:

Well there’s certain things I don’t like to share.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And a towel is evidently one of them.

Meagan:

Especially if it’s so damp. Yes. Yeah.

Mark:

If it’s just damp, it’s got lots more use in it.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

If it’s dripping wet, then uh you might want to pass on it.

Chris:

And if someone’s provided you your own towel, why not use it?

Mark:

It’s just

Chris:

It’s another thing if there’s only one towel and you if you’re forced to use my towel. I would share it at that point.

Mark:

I’m a conservative person by nature. Yeah. To be able to conserve on him

environment and water and yeah.

Meagan:

What else do you not want to share?

Chris:

So here’s the big thing. But we did come to a consensus yesterday at the house, at our new house that we are renovating.

Mark:

Yes.

Chris:

Mark wanted our master bath not to have a door. Like just to be open, so you walk into like this desk area. The master bath would not have the door a door, nor would the master bedroom have a door.

Mark:

But the master

Chris:

this well way out of the master suite would have so it have one door for all of it.

Mark:

And that’s where and that’s where we live.

Justin:

Yeah.

Chris:

So anyway, I wanted a door a pocket door on the bathroom. Just to c what if what if we had company and they had to use our bathroom, right? You’d want a door on the bathroom.

Meagan:

Yeah

Justin:

Also you want it, right?

Chris:

And also I want it, yeah. So I can like privacy.

Meagan:

Is there a door for the toilet?

Chris:

No. Oh

Meagan:

and I need a door And you need a door.

Chris:

So we did we did yesterday.

Mark:

You can say we need a door.

Chris:

I just don’t think you can I I still don’t think he understands it. He conceded to having a door, but I don’t think he really understands the idea of privacy and my own space.

Mark:

And I think for me the aspect of it being the master suite You shut that door to the master suite and it doesn’t matter what you’re doing, whether you’re still in bed, whether you’re using the restroom.

That door says nobody else goes beyond it. That’s my perspective. But yeah. And the other thing too, initially, it was gonna be a space issue. So yeah, it was it was a it was a good team.

Chris:

It was several weeks of like Not agreeing. And him not just not understanding the whole idea of a bathroom door.

Mark:

Yeah. But we we have a we also have a window in that bathroom. So you know

Justin:

So you can look out when people drive by and

Mark:

you know when people are coming

Justin:

or watch.

Mark:

That’s right.

Justin:

That’s right.

Chris:

Yes.

Mark:

Yeah. So

Chris:

that was a compromise as well.

Mark:

It was.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So

Chris:

But I will say I

Mark:

And you share your space much better than you still.

Chris:

I will say that I think the reason I share better is because of of CR and helping me with my control issues. Like realizing that I really don’t have control and so there’s no use me continuing to try to take control because it’s not healthy for me or our marriage.

Mark:

Yeah, no point.

Chris:

So I would say the last what, three or four years maybe?

Mark:

Yeah.

Chris:

I’ve been much better.

Mark:

Yeah

Chris:

Because I haven’t been self-controlling.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I and I will I will say as we even uh as we think about um possibly the most difficult era of our relationship if we were you know kind of answer with with that I w I would say I’m I’m not I think about that because I think one of the more difficult dynamics of our relationship came later on with the adolescent kids. to

a certain degree

when that we recognize that control isn’t something we have anymore. You know

Chris:

Well we really didn’t have it to begin with. We just had an illusion of control.

Mark:

A valid point But I think that was difficult. Although I would say every every stage has been better for me as

as a as us But yeah, I think it was a turning when we began to have adolescent kids because it we recognized we did we were losing the the thoughts the the idea that we had of us having control. And I think it was difficult, but it also brought us to an aspect of recognizing how how important prayer is in our relationship to be able to when we don’t have that control to recognize yes we can still have influence by prayer and that’s even more beneficial. But I think that would so I I would say if we were answering that question to a certain degree, what was the most difficult and when would we grow the most, I would say they were both at the same time.

Chris:

Although I think it was at the same time, but I think for me the most difficult part of our marriage was when you switched careers.

Justin:

Mm.

Chris:

So what was mid cur midlife career change into marriage. And family therapy.

Mark:

Yes.

Chris:

Um so you gotta do a rhythm, right? So the first ten, fifteen years, this was our this was our reality. This is how we did things You would tell me things, I would tell you things, we would know what you what we’re doing. We would argue and we would each have an equal input. Right. So when he becomes a marriage or family therapist, in my mind He then becomes the professional relationship person and I I have less um valued influence. And secondly, I not never, at that point I didn’t know who he was with, or, you know, because of the confidentiality. Which I had a really hard time working through. Not that it it was it wasn’t as much of a trust thing. It was like, oh, this is a new way of doing things. We’ve never done it this way before

Mark:

It was it was if anything, it seemed like we had secrets.

Justin:

Well it’s yeah

Mark:

which we never did.

Justin:

It’s like bringing the bathroom door s conversation back. Mark’s not a bathroom door kind of person, but in this line of work he’s required legally to have that door with a lock and not let you in So for you that’s like a version of Mark you’d never see.

Chris:

Exactly.

Justin:

And you don’t see in any other way. That’s fascinating

Chris:

Yeah, but it took us several. Well I was saying that.

Justin:

Say we don’t want a bathroom door.

Chris:

Oh, but I do. On my terms though.

Justin:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that’s fascinating.

Chris:

But I would say that was really a r a tough time for ma for me in our marriage because I I was everything was turned upside down. I didn’t know what was what and

Mark:

I can respect that.

Chris:

Fair to talk about, what wasn’t fair to talk about. If I had an opinion, well he’s the professional. Do I really have a a valid opinion to share or if he says it, this is the way it should be, you know, kind of that whole idea of psychoanalyzing me. You know, early on he would say, hey, I want you to read chapter eight and this book I just read. That did not go over well.

Mark:

That was that was early on. But and I think I think even part of that was you know a curiosity from the learning perspective

Chris:

but at the same time it didn’t

Mark:

and it and that and I think that process too um I think was hard for me to even understand like the bathroom door because I didn’t see who I was changing. I realized the secret part as we talk about it. now was a part of it, but it was to the point of I didn’t understand

Chris’s change. You know, to the point of I still saw us as very much equals And the fact that I had a degree or even a license now, it really didn’t matter to me. But yet that did do something as far as you were concerned in a from a hierarchy standpoint. And it’s uh you

Chris:

and a security insecurity maybe increased the insecurity.

Justin:

Because it changed how you see it. It didn’t change how he saw it.

Chris:

Right.

Justin:

Right, you know what I’m saying?

Chris:

I saw mys myself and my opinions as less valuable, essential, necessary.

Mark:

Less correct.

Chris:

Yeah, because you had the and you had the correct textbook. You had the book.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, yeah.

Justin:

That’s fascinating.

Chris:

So when we when we would have an argument I would pretty much shut down. It’s like, well, I don’t really I don’t really have an opinion, you’re the professional, you tell me, you know, I’d kind of I’d build pull out the sarcasm to be honest.

Mark:

Yeah.

Chris:

And just saying, Well, whatever you say.

Justin:

But was it humorous Oh no. I’m just kidding.

Chris:

It definitely was not.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Chris:

So anyway, I think that was the low point.

Justin:

Yeah.

Chris:

So I I have I have um empathy for people who change careers years midlife. ‘Cause I think it is hard to get used to a way of doing things and then it all gets changed. But no ma no matter what career it is, it doesn’t have to be therapy, it could be anything. But you have a way of doing something and then it just all gets turned up.

Mark:

So it changed frequently and often and then it’s less of an issue.

Justin:

Well I mean it’s ironic you are going through some transition now and building the farmhouse and potentially shifting away from some l you know construction to some degree. So there’s some of that maybe.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But but you but the experience that you went through no doubt has gained you some You both of you as some tools or whatever for whatever transitions might occur. And not to mention your kids leaving, you’re moving out and growing up or Those are transitions too.

Mark:

Yeah.

Meagan:

But you’re kind of doing it together.

Justin:

The empty nesting thing, right? Like

Mark:

Yeah.

Chris:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Meagan:

As you said, they’re kind of doing it together now, the changes.

Justin:

Yeah.

Meagan:

Instead of just one of them.

Chris:

And I think I have a better outlook on his career, like So, you know, when our kids are 18, I’m pulling my hair and I’m like, Mark, help. You know, he’s got he then pulls these things out of his

Justin:

Book

Mark:

are you saying I cycle analyze my kids?

Chris:

You could, you do. I don’t think you psychoanaly but you just have a way of working things that I’m thankful for.

Justin:

Right, so it came full circle to where you’re like

Chris:

Yeah, I’m I’m appreciative.

Justin:

Yeah. I’m also appreciative of skills. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Chris:

Not only is his th therapy skills, but his construction skill Skills and

Justin:

it’s all coming in

Meagan:

and

Chris:

grateful that God gave him all those skills.

Mark:

There you go. Bending on the day, right? Most days.

Chris:

Every day.

Justin:

Yeah. And those sweet podcasting skills.

Mark:

Oh, they’re growing, but

Chris:

Y’all have a good thing going here.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But

Chris:

I’m proud of you both.

Justin:

Thank you.

Mark:

Well thank you. Yeah So what about you folks? What would you say was the most difficult?

Justin:

I I was thinking about that and I think there’s probably a few things that come to mind, but I think for It was mostly times where she or I were hung up in something on our own which caused distance Right, ’cause I mean I think about you know, something you’ve talked about is right after Joseph was born, right?

Meagan:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

And it really she was in her world And the same thing like um there are some times where career and things weren’t going the way I wanted or whatever and I started to become Kind of caught up in that and depression kind of came in, self-esteem all that and it was like my own world and same thing, like our relationship started to suffer because In each case we were dealing with we we were separate, you know in our yeah. Yeah. And so like working through that and recognizing that that was contributing to even our own struggles over here in our in our in our own world was the fact that we didn’t have the same support and love that we typically would have because we had

Meagan:

yeah. I think in the past we’ve kind of almost removed ourself a way to like help the other person almost or like we didn’t want to bring like I didn’t want to bring you into it So I just moved my struggles away and tried to deal with them on my own. And I think that you definitely have done that. over the years too or I just don’t know how to help you so I’m gonna give you space.

Justin:

Yeah.

Meagan:

And so.

Justin:

And we both have always struggled with the impulse to try and fix the problem. Right? Like if you come to me with your issues, well I’m gonna help you solve it. Let’s let’s be pragmatic about this and let’s solve it and that’s useful sometimes.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Not every time. You know. And so I think part of it maybe it was a growth trajectory of That’s probably not gonna work right now, so I’ll just be quiet or I’ll the separate or I won’t I or vice versa I won’t go to them with this because that they’ll just try and fix it and I know they don’t have the answers I need, so it’s better to just avoid that whole thing. But I do think like we’re slowly learning the value of listening. and not fixing and

Meagan:

or just being clear which thing we want.

Justin:

And or which thing we’re doing. Right like.

Meagan:

Or saying, I can’t hear you keep talking about your issue if I’m not allowed to speak into it.

Justin:

Yeah.

Meagan:

So you need to find help.

Justin:

You need to go talk to Mark on the podcast.

Meagan:

Not on the podcast podcast but like I’ve said that to you I’m like I need you to go talk to me

Justin:

and I have as well right yeah because we’re uh yeah recognizing

Meagan:

Because I can’t take with them.

Mark:

I was thinking about that from even do you think in some ways that factors into that that sense of competition and winning? As I think about it, you know, it’s like, how do you, how do we , if someone accepts my help and I can help, That’s a win.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

But yet to just sit and be doesn’t seem at times like we’re doing

Meagan:

Yeah, I think it’s more about control for me or

Justin:

Comfort.

Meagan:

Yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

It’s about seeing our partner in any kind of discomfort brings discomfort. to me and so I wanna I wanna be comfortable again so yeah solve their problem. I think it has more to do with that like we are notoriously bad at when when either one of us is sick.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

We’re just not like very we’re better. We’re a lot better. Both of us.

Meagan:

We would not be good nurses.

Mark:

No.

Justin:

We’re just we didn’t have to do that. Our role was like just take a pill.

Meagan:

Our role was you cannot tell me uh if you that you feel sick unless you’ve already like taken Advil or started to try and help yourself get better. Like I don’t wanna hear about it. I don’t wanna hear you whine about it if you haven’t done anything. Take a nap, drink water, take an evil, whatever.

Justin:

And it’s very much

Meagan:

and we’re fine with that.

Justin:

Equal. Yeah. Well we will

Meagan:

but now we like purposely try to baby each other.

Justin:

We are working on

Meagan:

nurture. It is nice.

Justin:

Nurturing.

Meagan:

Yeah, we’re not nurturing.

Justin:

We’re not very nurture. to each other. Meghan is very nurturing to our children. I will say it’s not like an inherent flaw in Meghan. But just yeah together with I think yeah.

Meagan:

That could be the competitive thing alone I don’t know why. I don’t know why.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s interesting.

Mark:

It’s just interesting to think about. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And we don’t like hold it against each other because we’re like, well, I do it to you too. You know like or or don’t do it if it’s yeah

Chris:

Can we spin that last question?

Justin:

Can we do it?

Chris:

Can we spin the last question?

Justin:

Yeah, sure.

Chris:

So we just talked about the most difficult time in your marriage. What if it was like what’s the best time season? Of your marriage.

Justin:

In the podcast on a positive note.

Chris:

Yeah. I don’t know what

Meagan:

‘s kind of

Justin:

if you know

Meagan:

yours. first

Mark:

yeah I was gonna say if we’re uh catching you guys off guard did you did you yeah flip that flip that positive part

Chris:

I would say now would be uh probably would you

Mark:

Go ahead. You’re you’re entitled to your.

Chris:

I would say because of um being able to work together in marriage ministry. It’s uh kind of a sweet spot for us.

Mark:

Yeah.

Chris:

And being empty in us is an interesting transition.

Mark:

Yeah, no doubt.

Chris:

So I think now I I’m happy to say that probably this is one of the up higher peaks. Yeah. Yes?

Mark:

No, I I d I would agree that right now. And and I think like I said earlier, you know, I think for me each stage of our relationship and and raising our family has just been better all the while. And I and it’s and I was thinking about it the other day ’cause

even though we’re coming into the empty nest tight dynamic Um what was once uh valuable time, which has always been valuable time with our kids. you know, and coming into empty nest, I miss that interaction and you know, when I’m like when we’re playing Ultimate Frisbee, I miss both of my kids. But yet I’m also at this point where I’m I’m just Uh

I want a different word than proud because it’s not about me and them, but I just recognize how Content I am to have our kids going out and doing what we’ve raised them to do and become a healthy young adult. And I think that has its own reward, if you will, you know, to be able to see them going out and doing and And you know

Chris:

And leading and

Mark:

Yeah.

Chris:

Forging their own faith and yeah, a lot of those things.

Mark:

Yeah, so I think this is our sweetest time and granted, you know, working on the the property and that kind of thing has been wonderful to have some time there with both the kids, you know, in their own sweet spots, but ultimately, you know, they’ve kind of gone and now they’re doing their own things and creating their own lives and you and I are still there and able to work together. And it’s not like we’ve had exchanged relationship with them and we feel like we need to move off with them

because we’re still us and I think it does get sweeter and there’s opportunity. to be us more so.

Chris:

Yep.

Mark:

Yeah. So I th uh yeah, I would give uh I would

Chris:

And now that we’ve solved the bathroom door issue, that is

Justin:

so good.

Mark:

We’ll still need a towel holder for two towels.

Chris:

To be continued on the door.

Mark:

Yes. It’s gonna be a pocket door. It’s gonna be a mocket door.

Meagan:

He’s like, it’s there, trust me.

Mark:

I wrote it on the subfloor yesterday.

Justin:

Oh, now it’s official. But it’s still a pencil.

Mark:

I told her, I said the contractor might forget, but I’m gonna write it here on the floor just so he doesn’t.

Justin:

The contact.

Mark:

Yes.

Meagan:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

Well

Chris:

So what do y’all think?

Justin:

Yeah. Your answer’s a good one for us too. You’re kinda I fe we feel that we were shaking or nodding our head together and that sounded very similar to where we’re at, right?

Meagan:

Yeah. I think We’ve had lots of like ups and downs, like the first maybe even like fourteen, fifteen years of our marriage. You know, like really high highs and you know kind of low lows and middles and all that but like I feel like now we put in a lot of work with like how we communicate with each other and how we care for each other and so now um it kind of like has stabilized to like a really peaceful, joyful like choice that we make every day to have a good marriage and a good relationship instead of just like oh I hope today’s a good day you know like I don’t know or like what ‘s going on? I don’t have no idea. Like I just I just feel like we were just learning for so long and just falling into just And communicate well and and have fun together and parenting together. When we’re on the same team with parenting now, I think more than Or like tag teaming it at least.

Justin:

Sure.

Meagan:

Well tag teaming it.

Mark:

And I if I may, I give you guys credit uh for figuring that out ‘Cause I’ll I’ll say I think it I’ll I’ll be honest as far as my thoughts, I would say we probably didn’t figure that out till probably year eighteen, twenty, maybe tw I’d say twenty. And you know, but yeah, we’ve gotten to that point where it’s almost like this is the the benefit of continuing to work and to continue to learn and to challenge and continuing to come back together even in that time when you feel when you know there’s the thought of well I’ll just go my own way you know kind of in that separation thing Not that it becomes a a complete separation, but you know, yeah going away from one another versus turning towards one another. And I think as we turn towards one another, even in those difficult times I think you know now is the blessing for we’re we’re experiencing reaping the reward for doing so and I give you guys credit for figuring that out at 15 you know years in Because I yeah, you’re five years ahead of the curve as far as we’re concerned.

Justin:

Figured out, I mean

Meagan:

it’s not than it was. We don’t know how

Justin:

Or

Meagan:

alone we are in it, but

Justin:

I mean I’m not sure

Meagan:

how high this

Justin:

peak goes, but you know. Um yeah, and I would I would say I don’t know, just a balance. I feel like we’ve had so many great years and moments and whatever, and then some occasional downtimes. I definitely don’t feel like it was equal There are peaks and valleys, I feel like

Meagan:

well I was just saying it was kind of more of a roller coaster ride.

Justin:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I agree.

Mark:

A roller coaster go ahead. A roller coaster that has continued to climb though. You have the downs. Yeah, that’s what it’s not all at the same level and we’re coming back to the beginning at the same level.

Meagan:

Yeah.

Mark:

You’re going, there’s ups and downs, but ultimately we’re continuing to climb.

Meagan:

Yeah, it was kind of like a free-for-all, like let’s hope we can make it, you know, and just like guessing, a lot of guessing I I really think so, like in like how we talked with each other and and we just like slowly built I guess yes slowly climbing up like even with that But um but I think now we like are very purposeful in having a good relationship and

Justin:

I think we

Meagan:

do a lot more towards that instead of just like You know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Meagan:

Hoping it works out.

Justin:

I think when you say hoping it works out.

Meagan:

Not the mirror. That

Justin:

but I know, but I think it’s very important to say that

Meagan:

Yeah.

Justin:

You don’t mean we were like, oh Mary’s is on the rocks, we might not make it. Oh pull up, pull up, pull up. Yeah, we might not No, we’ve always been

Meagan:

It’s like will this be a good day or a bad day?

Justin:

Right. Or will will this Yeah Yeah, will they respond okay to this or will I respond? But we you know, our marriage is

Meagan:

Oh yeah, it’s been good o overall.

Justin:

That’s what I was trying to say. It was like despite the struggles, we have always had a really great relationship. relationship.

Meagan:

Yes.

Justin:

But we’ve also you know, we’re humans so we struggle but but yeah, and then like kinda like what you were saying, us doing ministry together, celebrating recovery, doing worship together, has just been so impactful for our marriage in terms of Just yeah looking together at the same thing. You know what I’m saying? Because sometimes we get so focused on looking at our own thing or at each other And like oh the towel’s wet or whatever, you know, it’s like we’re just staring at each other and the differences, but if we can just align our vision towards a common thing, sometimes that in marriage that’s parenting right and that can be good for a long time but then kids go off and it’s like oh crap now we’re looking at each other again it’s a problem um and so I think it’s so important to have something to look at together. I do think kids is an important part of that, but what uh but also other things and for I think that’s been really impactful for us. And We would come home Friday nights and Friday nights after Celebrate Recovery and we get home was some of our favorite I mean fun memories, right? Those were fun for me ’cause we would sit on the couch. We’d just enjoy each other’s company. We’d kind of decompress about the evening, how things went And you know, sometimes it was like well a little hard because it didn’t go great, so we kinda hashed through that or whatever, but ultimately those Friday nights have just have just been so positive for us.

Meagan:

Mm-hmm

Justin:

To to just sit on the couch together and look at a thing together and talk about it.

Meagan:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um

Mark:

creating a vision.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, shared vision. Um but yeah, so I’d say definitely right now. I think like you said, y it continues climbing ’cause you you gain new ground and you know, if if you’re doing life right and you’re not willing to give that ground up. Like we got this far. Let’s let’s we at least know this about each other, you know, like and we’re not going back from this. Like we now know like You love me enough that this is true, so we you know, like this is okay, you know, whatever that thing is, and we can next time we have a sh a fight or whatever, we don’t we don’t have to fall past this point and I think that’s That’s been really valuable for us too because we’re gaining new crown and new insight based on now we have a new platform to stand on and like new understanding and

Meagan:

Yeah.

Mark:

And even each one of those little difficult not not little difficult, but even if they’re big difficulties, it is adding to that intimacy that you guys share.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You come to an understanding of each other in a way that you didn’t before. you know through that conflict and so now it’s not like that downturn if you will the the you know when you’re when your stomach is going up to your you know it’s like oh here we go But

Meagan:

I do like that part of our roller coaster.

Mark:

You do, but in a marriage it’s not always fun. But yeah, at that point you can say, okay, this is an opportunity and

Meagan:

Yeah.

Mark:

We’re gonna we’re gonna we’re gonna work through this and we’re gonna come out the other side knowing one another better.

Meagan:

Yeah. And I think that’s really important, like, you know, for the listeners to hear because like marriage is really hard.

Justin:

Yeah.

Meagan:

And it’s really wonderful. But like if you’re expecting it not to be hard or if you’re expecting not to have to put in your best effort. Like You you have to. And you’ll have bad days and good days and but it will keep getting better, especially like as you and I have put in the work to make it better. And I guess what I was saying earlier is just not just hoping it’s gonna get better and like just like, you know um kind of aimlessly going along, but like actually working towards understanding when you say this to me and I take it as the wrong thing, you know, but you didn’t even mean that. And like even those little things that we work out so that we understand each other better just like make everything so much better and does make it climb and

Mark:

um

Meagan:

Yeah, I don’t know. I guess I just always want to like I feel like we have a wonderful marriage and I love it And like but I see like my friends who struggle and like you know, m I’ve had people say, Oh, y I wanna have a relationship like you and I want them to too but like you do have to put in a lot of work. You can’t just just like hope like you can’t say like oh he’s the wrong guy or whatever and we’re going into a whole nother thing no but like I think we work hard every day and usually it’s fun all the work

Chris:

And I think it’s important to note you work hard individually too.

Meagan:

Yeah. Yeah.

Chris:

I mean, I think there were many years when I always blamed, you know, I pointed the finger at him. I’m not happy because of you.

Meagan:

Yeah.

Chris:

And when you start taking responsibility for your own stuff, you know you get healthier. And when you get healthier, then the marriage gets healthier Yeah, but when you keep pointing fingers and you know this we’re never gonna get out of this cycle, there’s no hope. I mean you gotta start with yourself.

Mark:

Are you sure you ladies don’t want

Justin:

Yeah. How she sees it.

Mark:

Yeah.

Meagan:

We can we can come back another time.

Justin:

Yeah What? Did you hear that?

Meagan:

Just one more time.

Justin:

Write it down. Just one?

Meagan:

Well, just because I feel like there’s more to say. And I kind of opened up a can of worms, I think

Mark:

And that’s okay. Thank you for sharing.

Chris:

That’s good.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah, because we need to come back to that even in some ways. How do we, you know, I think we can be here and it’s and it’s good.

Meagan:

And yet

Mark:

how do we offer that hope?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

In some ways for somebody that’s at year seven and you know and and you know that incentive to create that hard work, you know Because I and I think at times it, you know, it can seem as if we’re working as hard as we can.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and it still seems like, you know, at times we’re struggling so I think this is a good uh yeah opportunity to make a segue maybe but uh just uh that being said I want to appreciate I want to thank both of you ladies for uh joining us and giving us the opportunity to uh see life how you see it. See the podcast.

Justin:

And letting the listeners see life how you see it. Like for real. I appreciate you guys coming on and

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Being willing. I know it was a little like intimidating when you walked in here and shoved a microphone on your face and but you guys are awesome.

Mark:

Yes, we appreciate you.

Chris:

You guys are too.

Mark:

Yeah. So this is how we see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C-L-I -C-K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.