0:04
and that's and that's what I was bringing getting to that point it's like I think so

0:09
often worship can be hijacked by feeling you know and if I don't have a feeling

0:18
or there isn't um an aha you know then I really haven't

0:25
that's so good yeah and I'm not sure and I and I guess that's how I you know

0:31
that's where the worship part comes for me it's like it's like oh I had a happy feeling I did a worship yes when you

0:38
when you brought up that you know it's such a cute thing yeah yeah you

0:43
know yeah and it's and it's not [Music]

0:52
always welcome to how I see it with me Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is

1:00
is a podcast that works to countercultural polarization through

1:05
thoughtful [Music] conversations how are you

1:11
sir now you can ask about mine oh I asked about your dad

1:18
joke I'm well how are you I am also well yes indeed I am a little groggy and

1:26
you're groggy is that right yeah all right but that's all right we're not going to let you know know that we're groggy yeah you're not going to be able

1:32
to tell this might be a two you might need to listen to this at two times versus a time and a half just to make it

1:39
uh Move Along there as as a as we uh well I suggest you do that every time

1:46
that's true takes an hour episode makes it 30 I mean exactly it's hard to beat that right through that and we sound

1:52
smarter so I'm all for it that's yeah I could always use a little sound smarter

1:58
but same yeah same so what are we talking about today well you know it's been uh it's been an interesting process

2:06
I've uh I've been thinking a lot about worship just what it what does it mean

2:12
and it was interesting uh happen to bring up your um recording that you did a while

2:20
back for the church for the that depression and I was just uh I was taken

2:26
back by how so go ahead to pause you yes to

2:31
pause me there might be a few people listening who know what you're talking about but there's a few that don't yeah

2:38
yes that's why I was you had made a recording for the church uh regarding mental health there

2:46
was some mental health segments that were entitled let's talk about it and

2:51
your segment had more to do with depression and you know we've talked

2:56
about depression this isn't necessarily we we'll have it a you know foreshadowing we're going to have a

3:03
segment on depression and that kind of thing it's going to be really full of levity there you

3:09
go and but in that in that video we happen to be watching it because we happen to be away during that time and

3:17
you were talking about how songs you know can actually bring you out of that

3:25
and you know and I've just kind of been in a in a stage myself myself a learning

3:31
area where I've been reflecting on worship what does it mean you know and I

3:37
and I think you know it can be one of those words we throw out there as far as that goes and and as I was thinking

3:44
about that I I was thinking about how even you and Megan you know

3:50
together um tend to be worship leaders and you know and I and I just

3:56
recognize how important that is in your life and I was just thinking about that as a as a topic you know getting your

4:04
thoughts and kind of sharing what does it mean when you know we think about

4:09
worship where you're concerned well we can make this real short Mark

4:17
okay I just I just Googled Define worship and uh we have a dictionary

4:23
definition it says the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration

4:28
for a deity uh example the worship of God or verb show reverence and adoration for a deity

4:36
deity honor with religious rights there you go yeah that's that's

4:42
that does that do it well not as far as I'm concerned because I think at times

4:49
we can worship things unknowingly I think yeah not it's not

4:55
always just deities yeah although are they I guess would be my question

5:03
can I make something can I make an animate object a

5:08
deity you deify yes yes yeah and and I guess that's the

5:15
thing you know and I and I that's where I'm at with how I see it are there

5:21
things in our culture that we have deified is

5:26
technology deified is what is Instagram and Facebook and what

5:33
other people think about me deified from a people pleasing perspective you know

5:40
and I and I guess that's where I've been personally wrestling

5:45
with what does it mean to worship and I and I don't want to make

5:51
it some big nebulous type thing but I I that's been the struggle and and as I

5:57
was you know thinking about your video and how songs and you know and what we

6:05
say the words we use tend to

6:10
reflect a sense of worship and I think you know we can at

6:17
times worship things that are not capital D deity type Dynamics God you

6:26
know and I realize even that can have a different connotation depending on you

6:32
know my religious background that kind of thing who is God what is God you know

6:38
and I and and I guess that's where the worship part came to for me and I was I was actually kind of coming to you with

6:47
that recognition as someone who tends to lead worship what does it mean you know

6:53
yeah how how do you go through that process what is that process like for you even in daily basis not just in a

7:01
communal yeah I was going to say you kind of you started the

7:08
conversation in terms of breaking down what worship is and which way you're pointing right yeah what what the object

7:16
of your worship is and I would like to kind of break down the other direction which is what's considered worship yeah

7:23
and um I think I think traditionally and when you hear the word worship you think

7:31
what that definition talks about but in like a church setting you

7:36
know um maybe heads bowed maybe whatever kind of this

7:42
uh respectful reverence experiential thing right you

7:48
you experience a worship yep and I would say I just did a worship yeah and even I

7:53
think even saying the word worship is automatically G to

8:00
exclude certain people who who think well I don't like to sing songs I don't

8:06
like to do that worship thing right so

8:12
therefore you know and and I think that's where it's coming back to for me is what do it what does it look like on

8:19
a daily basis what does it or or do I you know and that and that's where I'm

8:25
coming back to you with that is that yeah that's why I was that's kind of

8:31
where I was getting to right it's this idea that quote unquote being someone who

8:37
leads in worship or whatever um that act of being up on a stage or on a floor

8:44
whatever it is with a microphone or not whatever that looks like is not the full

8:52
picture of what of what worship is and I mean I would I would argue if that's all

8:58
someone is doing in their life for worship is getting up on that stage and quote unquote leading

9:04
you then I'm not necessarily uh confident that their leading

9:11
is is working right like how you understand that what I mean is worship

9:17
is every day we were you said this earlier before we started recording we were made to worship like there's

9:24
something in our brains right that's Desiring to worship much like like

9:31
relationship even it's almost like we're pre-wired to have relationship with

9:38
people and and we would we would probably see worship as one of those

9:44
prewired Dynamics yeah we would certainly see it that way especially I mean because of our I mean our the

9:51
theological positions right sure which is believing that we are created for

9:57
that we were created for that purpose um but yeah so essentially that means that

10:03
throughout my day my week or whatever I should be being pulled

10:09
towards worship and right now you might be able to hear the the birds coming

10:15
through the window mhm and I love that sound sure for me that's worship it's

10:22
recognition it so I I guess what I was going to say too is anything

10:31
can be worshiped any act can become an act of worship and any act or anything can

10:38
become a deterrent to worship does that make sense so so we

10:45
we're really breaking it down now but you know you're talking about kind of standing in a worship experience at

10:51
church whatever I'm saying no I think listening to the birds come in can be an

10:56
act of worship where it reminds you it's serves as the lyric of a song to say my

11:02
father is good and he's created this world and he feeds the birds of the air

11:09
and listen to them how happy they are they aren't worried and he says I'm supposed to not worry like they're not

11:14
worried listen to those guys they're not I need to be like them right like that can happen in that that second know that

11:22
one celebration of a new day the sun's Rising again yep yeah yeah or hard work

11:29
is a good another good example where it can serve as an opportunity to remember

11:36
how that God created us to do good work good hard work you know and that Ecclesiastes you know he talks about I

11:43
did all the partying I did all the fun stuff and you know what really makes me

11:48
feel like I belong here it's a good Hard Day's work and then enjoying my friends

11:55
in in a meal at the end of the day sure right it's this idea that work is

12:00
something we are designed to do and it can become an experience of worship what we recognize this is what I was created

12:06
to do sure you know and yeah I mean I could go on and on and

12:11
on right like um hardships recognizing that like well

12:17
crap my the school just called my child is not feeling well like they're going to throw up me that's just really throws

12:23
a wrench in my day because I I was working on this thing now I got to leave I got to do all this stuff and even

12:30
worse maybe my kid isn't okay right sure yeah often that's not my first thought it's like oh okay how do I solve this

12:37
and know whatever sad but Megan is the opposite she thinks yeah this is what this is why we're a good team right

12:43
she's like the children I'm like my job yes this yeah this is why we're a good

12:49
team I'm like yes you're right the children I'm always assuming they're good you know it's like they're probably

12:55
you know the point is when those hardships come up those are opportunities as well to to

13:02
turn them over and worship to be able to say there's something in

13:08
this that you're in this you're in this and there's something about this that I can I can see you in it and maybe it's

13:16
not today but I can you know yeah uh hope is the sub faith is the substance

13:21
of things hoped for sure so it's this idea that I don't know what this thing necessarily means today but I have faith

13:28
which is my hope that it will mean something sure that there's a purpose in that it will you know and so I can treat

13:35
those moments where well I guess I'm supposed to be spending that time this afternoon with my daughter or my son

13:41
sure so I'm going to you know as soon as I get in the car be the best darn dad I can be be really caring not thinking not

13:48
be thinking about work but recognize no God called me out of work for this for a reason I'm going to do this as an act of

13:55
worship does that make sense yeah and and I'd be curious how at times you challenge yourself or pull yourself into

14:03
that you follow me how has that become well I'll be the first to say I

14:09
don't always I mean that's that's certainly not what I'm saying I'm saying there are opportunities all throughout

14:16
the day and I and I and I think that's where I'm what I'm asking in this process of Life how have you brought

14:24
that into your Who You Are how has that become a

14:30
greater part of your character if you will to be mindful that that opportunity

14:38
not only that opportunity but the next opportunity can be an opportunity for

14:44
worship because I'm hearing this process that it it's a it's a TR a transition for you or it's been a growth or a

14:52
learning that you've acquired over time because it wasn't

14:58
necessarily natural natural for you is that fair to say yeah and and and and

15:05
walk us walk me through how that has become important to you or what has made

15:12
that important to you well the answer is

15:19
not a good one in terms of sound bites okay like it's not alytical it's not

15:26
yeah I mean unfortunately it's a life time of work right and I think I think

15:34
fortunately really I mean that's that's how it's supposed to work it's it's not but I mean in terms of like I wish I

15:39
could give you this oh here's the top five things and you be whatever we're not a top five things this is a how I

15:45
see it podcast yeah that's true is so how I see it Mark how I see it yeah the

15:51
first thing that came to mind when you started talking about that is accountability is this and I don't just

15:57
mean showing up in someone saying hey are you doing your stuff this week or whatever I

16:03
mean I go to places where they are displaying worship through gratitude or

16:08
through whatever and I go yeah this is a breath of fresh air hearing that I need to do that yeah and

16:16
then repeat for 10 years right sure and you're more likely going to be like that

16:22
as a result of that input sure you know garbage in garbage out good stuff in

16:28
good stuff out right like and I think for me that's a big part of is being in atmospheres where hardships are looked

16:35
at through an attitude of worship and I'm specifically referring to celebrate recovery where we de are dealing with

16:42
Hurts Habits and Hang-Ups sure you know on an on an ongoing and regular basis and the way through it is worship

16:51
you know is sure and that's like a generic term for what we do but it's I

16:56
think it's accurate to say I can dwell on my situation or I can worship God

17:05
through it I can look at him look at him use him as the lens through which I look

17:11
at these hers habits and Hang-Ups and start to move forward with that view and that's what is successful yeah and the

17:21
other thing I would say is reading God's word I hear cuz like I said The Sparrows of the air he feeds them they don't

17:28
worry all that stuff is right from the Bible MH and if you spend time in his word for again read read read enough

17:37
each morning that you go okay I got a nugget I'm going to carry this nugget with me the rest of the day that can

17:43
take you literally two minutes if you stumble on the right verse you're like man that's good sure put it in your

17:48
pocket and go to work yeah and do that for 10 years sure right and 10 years

17:54
later you're going to have lots of stuff your pockets are going to be overflowing and it'll come come out in worship nuget

18:00
those nuggets yeah sure yeah you uh you just uh used a word here just a bit ago

18:07
um gratitude help me understand how do you

18:13
see those two as synonymous are they they different in some ways I'm just

18:18
thinking about worship gratitude I'm not trying because I think

18:25
gratitude can be its own topic don't get me wrong yeah I think they can become come synonymous but I actually think

18:30
gratitude is the Catalyst right it's it's the thing that converts this experience into that experience you know

18:37
like in science catalyst is a thing that you add to this thing and it becomes a

18:42
completely other thing right as a result of that Catalyst being introduced now you have you know what I mean sure and

18:50
it it it it helps a process it speeds it up it changes it yes yeah I mean the

18:56
idea behind from where I what from what I vaguely remember from high school

19:02
science is it takes a thing that was this thing and now it's this thing sure

19:08
because this Catalyst was introduced in other words it's not it's not speeding up a thing it's completely converting a

19:13
thing from this direction to this like completely new thing as a result of a catalyst does that make sense yeah yeah

19:20
and so I think that is what gratitude is it can take this thing and fill in the blank all the things we just talked

19:26
about you add gratitude and now boom Worship You Got To Worship I did

19:33
worship right like I think it can easily divert what's going on into worship sure

19:40
so I do think they do go hand in hand they're not the same thing necessarily I think but I think gratitude is that

19:48
Catalyst that says it's a part of the process yeah yeah to where I it's in in

19:54
some ways maybe fundamental or foundational to [Music]

20:00
yeah the process of worship I guess I can't fathom how you could do worship

20:05
without gratitude like yeah yeah that's what I'm saying you're absolutely right I think it is a required Catalyst right

20:12
yeah yeah so maybe we got this in the wrong order we should have started with gratitude but yeah and I'm thinking I'm

20:20
thinking about that from that aspect of the end

20:25
result you follow me cuz we can when now we have you just said now we have a

20:32
worship you know what I'm saying and and I think look at it so cute yes I have

20:38
this feeling I have this you know this nugget that you shared you know and I'm

20:44
and I'm thinking about that in that process because okay can I pause real quick yes of

20:52
course I don't think a feeling is necessarily did I beat you to no that's

20:58
exact that's exactly feeling is not necessarily worship I think worship is a direction that you're paying attention

21:06
yeah you know yeah and there may be a feeling that goes along with our Act of

21:12
wor a bonus icing on the cake if you will yeah but and and that's and that's

21:18
what I was bringing getting to that point it's like I think so often worship can be hijacked by feeling

21:28
you know and if I don't have a feeling or there isn't um an

21:35
aha you know then I really haven't that's so good yeah and I'm not sure and

21:42
I and I guess that's how I you know that's where the worship part comes for me it's like it's like oh I had a happy

21:49
feeling I did a worship yes when you when you brought up that you know it's such a cute thing yeah yeah you know

21:56
emal yeah and it's and it's not always and I think I think about the hard times

22:03
I you know I even think about you know Chris and her family just going through you know her dad's you know death that

22:11
kind of thing and you know just the um the worship of God going before that

22:18
entire process you know that it's it's in the

22:24
hard things I think sometimes that we don't necessarily see or experience the feeling but yet

22:33
there's something greater than just an emotional high if you will you know

22:40
there's there's a peace there's a sense that's even deeper or there's an

22:46
assurance the hope that you can ref that you refer to even in the midst of a

22:53
difficult circumstance and I can still choose to worship and say okay yeah there is a

23:02
purpose in this and I may not necessarily see all of

23:07
it but yet I can choose to praise if you

23:14
will and I recognize yeah that there is a good God who is operating on my behalf

23:21
regardless of the circumstance you you mentioned another I

23:26
think key word right or or I want key components to worship yeah you said

23:33
choose and I do believe that is I so I think when we

23:39
started the conversation with it sometimes we passively allow other

23:45
things to come in between worship right and you use the

23:50
idea that okay now we're worshiping that thing because it's come between and I think that's probably accurate except I

23:56
think that choice in work worship is so crucial sure this idea that I know what

24:03
I'm doing yeah and I'm I'm it's that direction of where you're paying attention like I said but I'm doing it

24:10
I'm you know like I'm I'm aware of it and I think to your point about emotions

24:17
sometimes they can make you lose track of the choice and it can like you said

24:23
becom simply an emotional experience that feels worshipful but I do think

24:29
how I see it yeah that worship there's a key component of choice there of

24:35
choosing it is is purposefulness in it and I think the hard times make that

24:43
purposefulness that choice that much more um poignant right because it's like

24:50
it's I have to do this I need to it's important you know and yet it's hard

24:55
it's it's a it's a difficult thing sometimes to choose worship yeah and I and I guess I guess

25:01
from a polarizing topic of sorts would wouldn't you agree that

25:08
sometimes we worship things by default we never some things we I think

25:16
we can inadvertently worship without necessarily knowing we are indirectly

25:23
choosing that path yeah it's interesting I uh I feel

25:30
like uh you know we did a podcast on true leadership right yeah and uh I was

25:36
there I think yeah pretty sure you were there um but one thing we are we really

25:44
harped on in that episode is this idea that yes there's this idea of what leadership is we're talking about true

25:50
leadership right basically and is a how I see it true leadership I think what

25:56
I'm talking about worship being a choice it's a very much a how I see it true

26:01
worship I got you where I do think we like like you're saying we can replace

26:08
that with a passive uh reactive version of it sure

26:15
that I'm not sure I'd like to call it worship yeah I think I'd more prefer to

26:20
call it a distraction but we we often do

26:26
like in the Christian world theologically talk about that becoming a new way taking the place of your

26:33
worshiping you're worshiping this thing or this event or this person or whatever and I think it's effective it's an

26:40
effective uh illustration of what's Happening gotcha but I'm not sure I

26:45
truly would say that worship is happening if it's not intentional is that is that fair I don't

26:52
know if I'm even 100% no on this idea but it's like this and that's the the

26:58
part that I'm that I want to wrestle with even in some ways yeah because I

27:03
believe you know when well if we want to go scriptural from an Old Testament standpoint you know I think of Moses

27:11
when he went up on the mountain and it wasn't too awful long he was with God and he was in God's presence and he

27:17
comes back down and there's a there's the people of Israel worshiping the golden idol the golden calf you know

27:24
what I'm saying but that was intentional they got get like Aaron asked everyone in the community to give

27:31
yeah all their you know their gold earrings or whatever and he said we are Choice intention we are going to make a

27:39
golden calf and we are going to worship it sure it wasn't like a oops I accidentally made my motorcycle an idol

27:46
and now I'm worshiping it because I spend all my time with it it I see what you're saying I think that was worship

27:52
yes I of course incorrectly positioned but and and I think that's where I was at where you were concerned true worship

28:00
yeah can I guess maybe true deity versus true worship can be two separate things

28:08
I can truly worship something that isn't necessarily truly

28:15
deity right good yeah that's that can be a choice and from my perspective I think

28:22
sometimes we can do that by default when we re recognize okay if

28:30
we're acknowledging God who he is if he's not performing the way that I want

28:35
him to in response to my worship I may choose to worship something

28:42
else and I and I and I guess that's that's maybe that aspect of true deity versus

28:50
true worship like that is and I you know and and I think that's that's what

28:58
interesting too is I think you can do quote unquote true worship without calling it that because I think what so

29:05
I'm thinking about what you just said sure you basically said I might be disappointed in this deity so I choose

29:12
to send my worship somewhere else but it's not like so I think about

29:20
um I would recognize that as a choice like you're saying I would recognize that that is something I'm choosing to

29:27
do yep I guess what I was going to say is I am choosing to do it but I'm not knowing that I'm it's it's it's

29:35
effectively worship and if I would it's not like I'm choosing to worship this thing it's I'm choosing to take all of

29:41
my focused attention intentioned focused attention from this thing to this thing

29:46
and this is now and so now I'm talking about you know I have this particular subject in

29:52
mind but I I'm not going to use it cuz I feel like we don't want to go that direction and polarize or whatever but it's like this be this was the greater

30:00
good but now this is the greatest good and this is this is the ideal and everything falls to this ideal and

30:06
everything matters here and this is why it's because this is so important and like all that focused intentioned Focus

30:13
yeah I think is what you're exactly what you're talking about is replacing a worship of a deity with another thing

30:20
another ideal another Focus another person another whatever it is where you

30:25
say this is this is what matters this is what I am focused on this is what guides

30:31
me directs me yes feeds me you know and I and I I guess I guess what I'm

30:37
thinking in this process and the the to bring it back to the worship I think

30:42
from my perspective you know we can unknowingly worship money we can worship

30:49
sex we can worship family you follow me over the god of creation yeah if you

30:57
will yeah and and I guess that's and I don't think we always

31:03
knowingly Mis or change our Focus I like the the binocular thing you did you

31:09
stuck your you know hands up next to your face and it is a turning it's a shifting and I think you know when we

31:17
turn you know towards other things and desire knowingly or unknowingly to

31:23
worship them we're missing out on that op opportunity to really have

31:31
fundamental worship over the god of creation I guess it it kind of comes

31:37
back to they have worshiped the created versus the Creator yeah yeah which that

31:44
shows how great our creator is is that there are so many aspects to his

31:51
creation that are truly worshipful like could worship that it's

31:59
so like nature it's a it's big enough it's amazing enough right that you could

32:05
be content in that worship I mean you know what I mean it could it could fill

32:11
or family yes or what you know all the things you listed like all those things are created and yet they fill a big

32:19
enough void in our life that they can replace our need for worship like but

32:24
the beautiful thing about that is it was created all these things were created by a Creator so we could go right to the

32:31
top exactly in our worship yes yeah but I love what you're saying and I think

32:36
that's that's where I think you know the question what I started for you is how

32:42
do you in that process bring it back to focusing at the top because I think

32:50
that's what you know and I think my desire you know in worship is to

32:58
make my perspective of God bigger not that I make God bigger by worshiping him

33:03
but I recognize that he is active he is he is sufficient

33:12
he is moving on my behalf in such a way that says yeah even in that difficult

33:20
situation he's still moving and acting and you know even in the process of

33:26
death even in the process of birth you know he's moving just as much and he's

33:33
just as big when I've lost a relationship as he is when I'm at my

33:39
wedding day at my yes yes and I think when I can do that I think that's when

33:47
I've learned to do what you're describing in that process of living a

33:53
life of worship yeah yeah and I think

33:58
earlier what I was trying to say is that I just didn't I I don't want to indicate

34:03
that you can just uh flip a switch and you can now be like this I think it does

34:08
take work it takes intention to to move towards that to where more and more

34:14
interactions in your life become worship I think it takes work it takes intention it takes time sure so I did I definitely

34:22
didn't want to indicate you could just flip on a switch because it's I just don't think that's true

34:28
um but there's certainly things you can do and you know I always I always like

34:34
the 12 steps as as a potential solution to any problem it's it's a framework if

34:41
you will that I like to go hey you asked a problem question I wonder if you could

34:46
apply this solution this this tool to this would it work and I think in this

34:52
case sure like first of all denial is the very first lesson we talk about in the 12 steps do you are you denying the

35:00
fact that you're worshiping something over and above the god of the universe well until you get over that denial I

35:07
mean your steps are complete right like there are no step further steps until that step is complete so I think step

35:15
one is to recognize I wonder I should think about I should consider whether

35:20
something is taking my intentioned focus off of my Creator and

35:28
and becoming the object the thing sure the person the whatever that I worship

35:33
because I think about thing I focus my attention on that thing more than I do

35:40
him yeah so step one are you in denial because you can't again you can't move

35:45
forward till you recognize yes I have an issue here yes so that I mean I think

35:51
the second thing that we talk about in the 12 steps is do you know what the second lesson is you go ahead powerless

35:56
powerless yeah yeah it's this idea that well I got here over the course of my

36:03
lifetime and I can't just flip a switch flip a switch I can't just it's a process tap into my willpower and flip a

36:10
switch and be different so I'm recognizing that like that's a that's another step until you recognize you

36:15
can't just flip a switch and become a different person like that right you are powerless to make that change on your

36:21
own in this instant without any assistance sure like I think that's the next part is to say you know I'm I

36:28
recognize I I'm worshiping the wrong things it's a choice I'm recognizing I've made choices right but also at this

36:35
point yep it's ingrained sure these choices have defined who I am MH and how

36:42
I do life right you know and recognizing that and then the next step is Hope yes

36:48
the next lesson is Hope and once you get past oh my hope lies in me nope I'm

36:53
powerless put that on the table right what's next it's hope it's why do we have hope well because we have a higher

37:00
power sure it's this idea that uh I can be pulled out of my current abilities

37:05
into this much bigger sphere of ability because of a higher power who

37:10
essentially superpowers me right like it's h it's this hope that says oh but I

37:17
can change not on my own not because of my own abilities but because I have something

37:22
bigger a source to tap into and being and that's when wor ship starts sure

37:29
right yeah I'm now not looking at my thing I'm not looking at my problem I'm now looking at my source of Hope yes and

37:35
that's when worship starts I mean so that's kind of the uh the uh irony of

37:40
this thing right like yeah you're already beginning you know yeah and I think but I do think that's the idea is

37:46
then taking you know continuing forward with that I'm not going to go go through the whole talk but it's it's a good

37:52
framework for solving problems you know and um and I think that that's part of

37:58
that when when our when we choose to worship and God becomes bigger our sense

38:05
of hope MH increases with that yes that there is a that there is a purpose go

38:12
ahead I see it well I I I was going to stop but I want to kind of just

38:17
summarize the rest of the steps which is now you do the work but you don't do it

38:23
in your own on your own you do it with this assumption that I have a higher power in a community CU then we talk

38:28
about getting Community into your recovery well in this case into whatever the problem is so you get accountability

38:34
like I talking about you get other people in your life who are doing this sure and say I'm going to pay attention

38:39
to this I'm going to be around these people I'm going to be environments where they practice this and I can learn how to practice this right sure you you

38:46
do the work quote unquote but now you're empowered by higher power and as you

38:52
shift towards the other side where you're like I'm becoming better at this you start to get back

38:58
sure you start to model worship you start to encourage others well you're staring at this thing what about staring

39:04
up above it at the Creator right like you start giving back from what you've been given and when you help others the

39:12
uh profundity there you go nice job

39:19
cool Mark's eyebrows raised I'm not sure that's a real word well like you say if

39:24
if you uh the profundity of helping someone through something that you have worked through cannot be under

39:33
like it cannot it's it's amazing this is what I'm saying yes when I'm able to say

39:40
hey this is what worked for me and you're going wow that makes sense sure

39:46
because it's coming from someone who's not like in a Crystal Palace of or

39:51
Academia of like teaching you it's like this is real world stuff that I did that helped you

39:58
sh um so yeah that whole process that 12st step kind of process really does

40:04
work to get you from I think and the reason why I wanted to wrap that up is because I think this is a cool framework

40:11
that you can take package up and apply to other problems right other issues in

40:16
like whatever the hangup is yeah I don't worship the right things well that's a hangup how you know you can tackle it

40:22
with this particular framework but you can also just keep this framework in mind for the next time you're like

40:27
I don't do X and I want to do it more yeah or I do too much of Y and I want to

40:33
stop you know yeah no and I it's interesting as I you know as you wrap it

40:39
up even the you know the the benefit of the collective aspect of worship you know

40:47
but yet I don't think we can I I never want that to be greater

40:54
than my own individual aspect of choosing you know

41:00
choosing to worship even in isolation you know going into the creation by myself with God you know in that process

41:08
of choosing you know because I I do think you know we can tend

41:14
to we can tend to minimize one or the other and I think both are

41:20
beneficial yeah and I would I would even say that corporate worship so corporate

41:26
worship this idea of us all worshiping together in a room or whatever right like looking like all standing in

41:34
together looking at the direction of God right so that's what we call corporate

41:39
worship it can be on a beach it can be in a church right like but it's this idea of worship uh corporate worship I

41:46
think that's enhanced by personal worship I think when you that I guess that's what saying like throughout the week when you're learning how to worship

41:52
and you bring that into a corporate worship experience that experience is that much more meaningful sure but I

42:00
also don't think it's required I I think corporate worship is an example of

42:06
accountability like I said watching other people do it and seeing like they are meaning what they're singing right

42:13
you know or they're meaning like I look I'm standing next to someone who's got their arms raised

42:18
their head up and their eyes closed and they're singing and it's like there's something about this person you know

42:25
they're they're meaning what they're why and I go oh yeah the lyrics oh yeah it's talking about oh yeah and now my

42:32
arms are you know what I mean like so I I don't think I think corporate worship

42:37
is amazing because it is an opportunity it can be its own Catalyst towards personal worship sure to point me in the

42:44
right direction which is very much a huge purpose as a worship leader is to

42:51
take someone whose focus is anywhere else their kids were naughty on the way

42:56
to church or whatever and say hey remember while we're here let's do this

43:01
thing you know like let's let's refocus our attention and I think uh that's a

43:06
that's an awesome opportunity as a worship leader to say let's all remember what we're doing here let's do this

43:13
because this is this is important and this is good and this is sometimes very

43:18
emotionally beneficial or whatever like all these benefits that you can get um

43:24
but I'm glad we talked about the concerns of you know emotions are not it

43:29
yeah um that is a choice it is meant to be some some of my favorite worship songs

43:35
are the ones that say I choose to lift my hands or I'm going to sing louder

43:42
than my unbelief we did that Sunday I raised a hallelujah it's this idea that

43:48
I'm choosing to worship over my unbelief louder right mhm because that's still

43:54
there sure but that's not worship is not uh a feeling it's kind of like love in

44:01
relationships where we talk about um love is not a feeling love is an action

44:07
an action sure it's a verb yeah and I think worship could probably be summarized that way as well

44:14
yeah yeah and I I like the analogy used with the the corporate worship of you

44:21
know hey let's remember why we're here you know and I and I still can recognize

44:28
that even in the individual Dynamic of how important to be able to recognize why

44:34
we're here you know because our lives have purpose and I think we have a

44:40
greater profoundness in our purpose when we're able to recognize that in such a

44:48
way that says Okay God you know what do you have for me and help me to to worship you in my work in my fatherhood

44:57
in my serving other people you know because that that is what I'm here

45:07
for and and even in that God can bring other people for us

45:16
in that same way to serve when we're at that that deep point of maybe even not

45:25
necessarily wanting to choose to worship I think you know we can get

45:30
to those points and I think that's where it comes to for me is how do how do I

45:35
recognize that point and I can still choose to worship even when it seems as

45:42
if all hope may be lost for a moment you follow me and I I I want to stay on the

45:49
the upper end of it but I think that's the that's the beauty of the the choice

45:55
we have and we can recognize that yeah the

46:00
Creator cares even if we're not sure that he does in the moment right that's where

46:08
the choice comes that's where the choice over the unbelief yes yes that's where

46:14
the faith is the substance of things hope for that's this idea I will believe

46:20
despite my circumstance a circumstantial substance yes right yes it's a faith

46:26
substance that is what I have Hing and I think in some ways that is that analogy

46:33
that suddenly my my focus has shifted and this thing is greater than

46:40
God and how do we shift that in such a way that says God is greater than my

46:47
thing and that I'm that circumstantial experience and that's where I'm able to

46:52
find hope that's where I'm able to recognize the purpose in

46:58
it yeah you and back to what I saying about being a lifetime thing um playing

47:04
high school basketball my coach I went to a Christian School um before every game we would quote 1 Corinthians 10:31

47:11
whether you eat or drink whatever you do do all for the glory of God team yeah school right yeah break break exactly

47:18
but we would quote that and it's become a profound part of my life to recognize

47:24
that or play basketball M or do the dishes or go I used to be a house

47:32
painter go paint this house in the Blazing heat yeah do it for the glory of God and to me that's worship you know so

47:39
I was being molded and taught that idea of daily worship even then yeah you know

47:46
through our chant before going out in the court and I also think of uh other

47:53
verses memorized as a child Romans 8:28 all things work together for good for those called according to his purpose

48:00
this is this I mean this goes back to the beginning of our conversation where did you do that one more can you do that

48:05
one more time Romans 8 did I say it wrong no I just Romans 8:28 all things work together for good for those who are

48:11
called according to his purpose see I like the other version better that says God works all things together for good

48:19
yes versus all things nebulously working together for our good that there is a God yeah and some

48:27
versions before that all things cuz I think we can tend to that's just a yeah yeah it's good

48:34
yeah it's it's the fact the verses beh behind and in front of it also provide that context so it is very clear that

48:41
that's what it is if you read but yeah that's that's yeah it's good I think um

48:46
no it's good but that that goes back to the beginning of our conversation about like well the kid's sick I got to go

48:53
pick them up all things okay all right guys let's do this this is for For Your

48:59
Glory it's for for some purpose you know yeah or uh the other one that we

49:05
memorized in high school uh let your light so shine before men that they might see your good works and glorify

49:10
your father in Heaven sure and it's like this idea that I can be a catalyst for

49:15
worship through my work and that's worship that's intentional direction of

49:21
my focus right like I'm going to do good work and that means show up on time at

49:27
my job that means don't skip steps that means treat others with respect and

49:32
hopefully that becomes a catalyst for someone else seeing that good work and going what is this you know yeah yeah um

49:41
yeah yeah all part of your yeah act not in a in a negative sense but an act of

49:49
worship a process of worship for that individual yeah and I think when when

49:55
worship becomes so profound to where all these verses start to point you to

50:01
towards what worship looks like now you have an opportunity to to have what

50:06
you're wor asking about in the beginning right it's this idea that worship is more than

50:12
just someone who's happy all the time or yes you know it's it's more than just a

50:19
a circumstantial moment yeah yeah it's an

50:24
infusing it becomes part of who I am yeah yeah well thanks for sharing Justin

50:31
I told you I could go on and on well like you say I just I I I value

50:38
what you do you and Megan in that process of CR and the way you folks

50:44
routinely lead worship and it just uh yeah and recognizing how songs have that

50:52
ability to you know shift our realign our Focus or you know and I think that's

50:59
an important part of the collective process and yet I think it has

51:04
significance in the individual Dynamics as well yeah as a bummer we didn't get to talk about songs more because I hear

51:13
you I mean that's how you kind of started it with that the songs and I think there's so much to say about yeah

51:21
songs as a subset of worship sure but I I do think this is a more important

51:27
conversation to start with right that can come out that can come out of our praise uh podcast praise episode we can

51:36
do a praise episode yeah yeah that's good remember you can worship by

51:42
turnning a wrench yes you can worship by yes any given thing throughout the day

51:49
yeah that's how I see it anyway and that's how I see it thanks for sharing

51:57
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