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[Music] welcome to how I see it with me Mark

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Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a podcast that works to

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countercultural polarization through thoughtful [Music]

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conversations and culturally you know you talking about people who a personality worship that whole idea and

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I think I think probably all of us have I mean I know for sure you you had a personality like that in your life I

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certainly did um so in fact you know listening to Mark driscal reminds me of

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him so much and um I think the beauty of it is that God uses that stuff as well

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and I think it's spun off this version of culture now where there is some disenfranchisement that's not good but

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there's also a a desire and a seeking of authenticity which is good you know and

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to where there's space for an album Like Yours there's space for being real and

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not having this perfectly packaged CCM you know album but reality is in the mix

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and there's a longing for that a desire for that and um I think authentic and

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that's not just the Christian culture right authenticity is more and more desired and appreciated you know you

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think about 50 60 years ago where you wanted the you wanted a professional to

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help you someone who knew what they were doing they could talk above you so you trusted them okay I trust you you know what you're doing you're smart and now

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it's kind of the opposite where trust comes when I know you're real and that cultural shift has happened in I want to

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say the last 20 years or whatever um and that obviously bled into the church and

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chicken or egg you know the whole Mark Driscoll that that personality worship which came first was that us doing it

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first I kind of don't think so I kind of think we are modeling the world you know

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and saying oh that works over there let's do that here too I don't know but it could be the other way and it doesn't

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matter in a lot of ways in a lot of ways um the phenomenon that drives I think

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the phenomenon that drove Mars Hill and a million other people like Mark um and

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the phenomenon that drives vanilla positivity Christian songw writing which

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we're all you know prone to fall into as writers is is the same it's it I don't

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know if this is too crass but like it's like the pornification of everything yeah we want we want the shortcut to the

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illusion of the thing without having to do or experience any of the awkward real

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parts of being there right you know and so it's like so someone like marisoll

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being a loud opinionated

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caricature which has parallels in other spaces in life but nevertheless uh that

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having that kind of personality um to live vicariously through means I

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don't have to As Long As I agree with his vicarious loudness then I I can sort

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of have do it and and it's like no but I'm with him and he's really doing it just look over there and and and there's

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the same thing with music where it's like oh no I'm I'm for four minutes three and a half minutes I'm Victorious

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and peppy and I feel that and it's not to Discount that that can happen that those songs really can be a moment for

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somebody that spins them into something of course course that can happen I'm not saying that can't it's just that can't

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be it the these these these moments need to be

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springboards that lead us to I mean the album is called the work for a reason I

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mean these are these are springboards to doing the work of living faithful life I mean the every song we ever write as a

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worship writer is part of liturgy even if we don't call it that even if we don't recognize that we should feel the

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weight of knowing we're competing with cranmer so like we're we're in there

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doing the real thing of helping people pray prayers and if we don't feel that weight then we're not paying attention

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and the word liturgy is the work of the people we're these songs are fuel for

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lived life they are not a 4minute distraction or a setup for a bad standup

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comic on a Sunday that's not the vibe we we are we are doing distinction in these

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songs you know and and I I I hope hope that we all recognize that I certainly

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am trying to increasingly myself and and and and feel weighed down in a sense by

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who do I think I am you know speaking of marisal but like that that sense of like the the

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work of living this thing and doing the long slow hard work of living it out is

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different from Simply appreciating it for four minutes in a time it's just not the same thing one leads to the other it

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doesn't automatically mean it happens you know um and I I think I think that's

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just been such a I can't even say I'm nailing it right now I'm kind of in this space myself

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where with the chaos of moving country and everything else where my my personal

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discipline of prayer isn't what I would like it to be to be perfectly honest it has been of course but but you know if I

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think of this last month it's like my life is chaos right now sure and and and so much of I think I don't know if it's

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maturing or what or growing it's like you know what I it's not that I think God doesn't care it's that I don't want to be motivated simply by guilt there's

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a disci difference between discipline and relationship and like this is the

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you know and so I'm kind of in this space of of finding moments where I get

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them in in in trying to be with Jesus in a simple you know

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childhood sense and uh and I'm grateful for that but but at the same same time I

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also know like hey life is hard sometimes and busy and crazy yeah and

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you know I think so much of what I need to be doing and need to be focusing on

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is living lovingly and that means centering and who God is and also loving

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my neighbor well yeah that's hard that's work it's yeah agreed

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um yeah if you don't mind there's a couple uh lyrics I want to talk about or sure

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yeah great or phrases I should say the first one I want to talk about my so okay so my favorite worship leader is my

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wife she's taught me everything and uh I just love her heart when it comes

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to worship and um yeah Mike would you agree do she's your favorite I agree

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she's your favorite in more ways than one pretty strange if he cut you I was

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like not true at all that's not yeah uh anyway sh there's a lot of

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things that we've talked about over the years but one of the things she has talked about is how much she

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appreciates O's O's you know or even like uh Manifesto

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amen right like those elongated opportunities to worship

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without having to have words because there's something and and I you know I

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think she would describe it like um the Bible talks about the the the wordless

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groes like the holy spirit will speak for us in in ways that we can't understand so in some ways it's this

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singing prayer of I don't know but you know kind of I I'd love to get your take

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on that on o it's I can get real geeky if you want please do so so uh one of

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the fascinating things in the last 15 years with how much Neuroscience has developed and evolve is we can see that

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groups singing so people singing out loud together has a physiological effect

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that Rivals practically every group activity except for sex so like there is

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there is this like so when you sing in a group you know fundamentally basic human

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thing in most cultures so when you sing in a group your brain produces huge amounts of a hormone called oxytocin

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which is sometimes called the love hormone mhm and it's the same same hormone that a mother is flooded with

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when she breastfeeds the first time same hormone when your elbows touch at the movies on your first date it's that

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bonding agent uh that kind of does the thing so just the practice of singing on

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a material level does something in us as

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as humans and what's crazy is just a few years ago University of bond in German

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showed that oxytocin one of the byproducts of oxytocin is

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altruism so let's go back to Matthew 22 for a second love the Lord your God with

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your whole self your body all of these things so dopamine and oxyen both prods by group singing your body's enthralled

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you're bonded with the people around you you're bonded with your community just in the act of group singing right and

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then apparently you're also at least in some way fueled to love your neighbor as yourself sure so that just in the act of

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group singing a little bit of Matthew 22 is taking place right mhm no doubt which is I think really crazy because I know

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you a lot of people will a lot of a lot of Christians will you know treat

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science as a toss away I I'm not one of them I'm I'm really into it but um but

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the the reality is I think it's remarkable that God gave us brains and bodies to use and and and you know again

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to our point about being holistic as opposed to divide lives is like it seems like God baked in y some of these things

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that Christian tradition discovered and has done and and you know Christianity has always been a singing faith for a

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reason sure it's it's amazing and this is this is just one example of you know

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hundreds of thousands I'm sure we've come up with over our over our Collective existence as humans to see oh

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there was a reason for that you know and seeing like science catch up and um Mark

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and I had an episode recently about creationism versus Evolution that whole thing because again very polarized right

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even within Christian culture there's polarized views between what creationism

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is right and uh but that was one of the themes was just talking about science and how we don't have to be Afra there's

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this tendency to be afraid of science if you depending on what you know cultural

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situation grew up in yeah t well you were Tau sure yeah yeah but yeah like

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you said we don't have to be afraid of it instead as exciting it should be because it's just going to show more and

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more of his plan and his creativity and anyway that's really cool and I think it's interesting because I mean

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realistically all truth is God's truth you know what depending on when we find it out so you know the fact that we're

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singing together or the fact that we're even singing puts it in our brain in such a way that we don't have to

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memorize these long you know I think of Old Testament you know that memorization that could go along with song that the

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minute I hear that song it all comes to my mind I don't have to recite it as a as a

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pledge yeah and I so I think you know that connection is just fascinating how God has baked in that ability and you

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know there is a purpose in worship whether we know all of those purposes yet or not but yet even the little parts

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that we become aware of through science make oh yeah God you did yeah this this

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is and I think we're we're complicated people we have emotions we have all of these things and I think the tendency in

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Christian faith to be like no emotions bad reason good well we learn enough to that's not simple either and so it's

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like you kind of get in this like well it turns out that there's something to be said for the whole person sure coming

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to bear in prayer and that means you know emotions and all the rest of it and

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and so I think that there's really something beautiful in that you know we can oh the whole music does things to

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the whole person in a unique way and it makes it makes an activity more than a

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solitary individualistic exercise it makes it a shared communal experience

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you know you could talk about Flow State you could talk about the fact that groups aligns heartbeats I mean it goes

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on it is the craziest science around group singing is the craziest stuff I think for thinking

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about what it means to and why it's such a big part of what we do to get sure you

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know so good um yeah I feel like you're avoiding the O question no I mean I

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think answer didn't the answer what there's and this is this is part of the thing it's like there's something to

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Simply the act of singing together that is beautiful and impactful so the O's and Oz and all of that are super helpful

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anyone can wrap their head around it and they can go there with you um I think it's a good thing

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now sometimes what'll happen is you'll get guys who kind of like oh well all worship songs should be like the old

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hymns theologically dense and and there is something to be said for content and

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quality I I do think that's good but again we're talking about human beings we're not Simply Having people sing the

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dictionary or the or the phone book it's like there some we're human beings and there's a give and take there's tension

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and release in that and I think so for me I've tended towards verses which are

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punch punch punch punch punch and then choruses which allow people to bre yeah

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it's that it's like a good movie in my mind there's tension and release there's build and there's breathe in and breathe

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out breathe in and breathe out and I think so much of those moments those O's and Oz and you know those kind of big

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soaring moments are are really about that it's like okay you've been chewing now swallow let's let's move on you know

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that kind of thing sure the other uh lyric I want to reference is Holy is the

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Lord because this is like I don't know if you knew this you probably did but that's

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probably the most common phrase across all of your you know including City Harmonic and I love it because you know

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Revelations talks about that's that's what the four living creatures I wrote this down each of them with six wings

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are full of eyes all around within day and night they never cease to say holy holy holy is the Lord God Almighty who

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was and is and is to come it's this idea that you can say this for infinity and it's never enough um but I wanted to get

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your take on that did you know that that's I'm I assume you did yeah yeah no

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I mean it's it's all over the place I mean from from start to finish I think I think one of

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the things that has stood out to me for a long time and get real esoteric here

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if we want um but is like the idea that the word holy essentially means like yes

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set apart but set apart as other so sort of this like unlikeness

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M and so you have this really fascinating thing where the holy the

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unlike makes human beings and makes us in our In His Image so there's this kind

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of strange like but unlike thing happening and so it kind of makes sense

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then that there's this a theological idea called participation which is common in Greek

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Orthodox circles the Eastern Church has been into this forever um but it's the idea that like we as Believers and and

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the question in theological circles has been to what extent does Paul take for granted the Theology of participation in

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his own soy and theology so it's that that kind of like participation being

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that the church people participate in the church and the church participates in the body of Christ so that language is very consistent in you know

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throughout all of Paul and so if you're looking at Holy is the Lord how does a

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holy God relate to his creation if we are both like and unlike

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God and so it kind of forces us to come face to face with the idea of being made

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like God now not in some crazy sense I mean that's the thing we're we're called

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to be little christs that's the whole so there's there is this tension in God is

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Holy therefore I am pulled into Holiness self throughout the whole scope

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of my life throughout every every sphere of my life it's it's again not an

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exercise which occurs as a means of like oh wouldn't it be lovely if things were holy it's a calling unto Holiness and so

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even they that s they that sing is the song you're talking about um and it's it's a song that kind of marries the

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science of singing we were just talking about from this old probably misattributed Augustine quote for you

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know he that sings praise twice but it is the idea that like there's something in singing that that emboldens and

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bolsters the power of Prayer in our own experience and our own lives I think that's true um and and so like in that

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singing there's something happening in our whole bodies and from that comes this song that in the second verse of

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that song leads into every other domain of Our Lives because it goes into Matthew 22 holy is the

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Lord so what does it mean to sing Holy well it means to be holy is the

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Lord you know in every domain of our lives so that's really what that song's trying to get to very simply um it's

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sort of one of the few very congregational very sort of meditative

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songs it repeats itself um which there isn't a lot of on this record but that one that song is one of them yeah it's a

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good one I like that I I like that line too I had heard the I didn't know it was Augustine or whatever but um just the

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idea that I was telling him sings praise twice yeah he that sings praise twice so many times in worship

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it's prayer but it's like enhanced enhanced prayer essentially so it's like

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2x prayer essentially so abely well you set a rhythm to it and you give people a

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pence follow and the idea of praying together is a lot easier yeah no doubt

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how many times do you find yourself humming the prayer you said in your closet in the morning versus the prayer that you said with other people in the

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midst of a congregation that's what continues in your mind that's good in the process yeah yeah yeah sticks

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exactly yes unfortunately for some of us it's the same five words that stick over

19:05
and over and over again but you know you sing those five words so well that's very oh my gosh that's

19:13
great oh yeah I'd love to uh I'm glad you talked a little bit about City Harmonic I wasn't sure how all that went

19:20
down in terms of like the shift from that to to solo oh oh it was totally

19:26
totally healthy that's amazing we still friends were planning a barbecue in a couple weeks nice know there's nothing

19:33
that Eric had cancer and he fought cancer for 3 years came back after two

19:39
years and uh you know after a year of three and realized he couldn't anymore

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um and the rest of us were like well let's keep trying and sort of decided you know what we're a band's band and uh

19:51
you know we need to close the book I mean I I often compare it there's a very

19:57
particular uh sitcom that takes place in a workplace um where there was originally a British version and then

20:04
there was an American version the British the British version was what two seasons I think maybe it was great do

20:10
you know what shy say no but that's okay is it okay if we say it yeah I don't care I was just trying to figure it out

20:17
while he gave more and more of the story so yeah keep going you look at the office yes The Office UK version of the

20:24
office was crass at times but it was it knew exactly what it was doing it was tightly packaged and they ended when

20:31
they needed to end the American office was nine seasons of which three were

20:36
great so it's like you know 60% of what they did was kind of wasting everybody's

20:42
time to keep going because they could because making money and I think of that as like a metaphor for Creative projects

20:48
it's like you know I could just do this because I could you could City Harmonic

20:53
could have continued because it was practical to do so because it paid our bills but we started as a band on

20:59
Mission we were commissioned by 30 odd churches to go out and do what we did and rather than just ride off into the

21:05
sunset slowly while everyone got bored of us we called it yeah yeah are you

21:11
ever tempted yeah there there's a lot to be said for that um yeah have you ever

21:16
are you ever tempted to get together to just do something I don't know have a

21:22
barbecue music musicly I I don't think that the band as

21:28
a whole will reunite musically uh no not for any you know particularly I just

21:35
don't everyone's moved on in their lives I think um but Eric and I Eric is still

21:40
full full-time in music I'm still very focused on music so it's a a big part of our Lives Eric co-wrote the song Fire

21:46
and Ice This Record we did that and so that's still part of you know we're

21:52
still I I had lunch with them last week so we're still very yeah is he in remission or is he oh yeah he's he's on

21:58
other side of it Wonder that's awesome but with with complications of course you know that that probably he he has a

22:06
liver disorder for example as a result of it that'll probably never oh wow yeah never go away so so that's there's stuff

22:12
like that but no I mean he's on the other side of it and life is good glad to hear that's awesome yeah yeah

22:18
obviously Manifesto is a favorite I think probably of pretty much anyone

22:24
who's heard of them but uh heard of you guys but uh holy wedding day man that song punches me every time I hear it

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like at the end I don't know I just it's such a great I we were talking about holy is

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the Lord right and singing at that revelation end times you know when we get to all go up there um that song is

22:45
very much painting a beautiful picture of that and yes um yeah such a great

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song I'd love to hear your thoughts on it like just whatever you know what

22:58
so so one of the things that sort of started my theological exploration

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Journey 20 years ago was first encountering n Wright the Theologian out of the UK who I'm a huge fan of and he

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talks a lot about how some we often reduce Christianity to going to heaven

23:18
when we die as opposed to this marriage of Heaven and Earth and Jesus and the

23:24
bride in which is what we see in Revelation and so in in in I think it's Revelation chapter 3 or four but the the

23:31
picture that is painted of the Angel singing Holy Holy we often read that as like only future tense it's like oh this

23:37
is what it will be like whereas that section of Revelation is actually saying this is what it is already and always

23:43
like yeah and then there are other sections of revelation of course 21 for example that are pointing to new heavens

23:50
and new earth and this reality of creation redeemed and lives redeemed and

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the cities redeemed and and this kind of city of God being the real the new lived

24:02
reality centered in and around Jesus and so that song is a a a really thick

24:11
metaphor um so there's sort of this like there's the church and the bride there's the bride and the groom of course the

24:17
church and Jesus which I thought the idea of the church is the bride of Christ was really

24:23
Universal like I thought everybody knew that yeah at least youth past

24:29
and and then we played an event and a youth pastor we walked we went into a Wendy's to grab a snack after a show and

24:37
youth pastor called us aside in front of their whole youth group and was like hey what's who's the bride and they were totally serious I was like Oh I thought

24:44
I thought this was like a thing you know that everyone knew so anyway the bride refers to the church and it's that same

24:51
thing of kind of this is the story of the Son of God dying on it's sort of this contrasting between you have heard

24:58
it said but I think it's more like this sure that that's a big part of what that song is doing again wrapping around

25:05
worship we don't worship to escape we worship because God is doing something amazing in our midst right now right now

25:11
not for the future but including the future which is which is his I mean the

25:17
kingdom is a big part of your music in the new album like his his kingdom is a

25:23
something we talk about a lot too his kingdom is not then later Heaven his

25:29
kingdom is now it doesn't it's not you know it's full form right like you said

25:34
the new city of jewers like when that come when that whole thing happens there will be no denying his kingdom right but

25:42
his kingdom never stopped like right language of the now but not yet right

25:47
it's like we we that and that's I guess like not to eat a dead horse at this point but like I think that's the

25:54
reality of what we've talked about this whole time it's like the reality is you can't you can't go beyond the surface of

26:01
Christian thinking and not end up with r tension really quick sure because

26:07
certain fundamental things within Christianity are like the now but not yet we live as if knowing it isn't and

26:14
it is sure that's that's like the basic Christian instruction how does that make

26:20
sense well it kind of does and kind of doesn't like you're living into a realized future in the person of Jesus

26:27
and in the mission and story and work of God in the world and that's that's

26:32
that's a that is not a simple thing a doubt beautiful thing it is a robust

26:38
thing it's a song we all want to hear but if you try to break it down to ABCs you're going to struggle true that's the

26:43
thing about so much theology right is it's it is meat that can only be chewed

26:50
once having matured in your faith long enough to actually have experienced the

26:56
truth of that Theology and then be able to look at it and go oh oh it's that oh oh you

27:04
know yeah and that's that it's that it's that love in action you know we we can

27:10
we can become paralyzed if you will to a certain degree by that tension so

27:16
therefore what do I do well in love I will continue to move and in God's grace

27:23
you know he's going to he's going to overcome my failures because of who he is but yet as I continue to strive as

27:31
I'm drawn towards him you know in that growth I am exhibiting my love for him

27:36
and his love for me and love for others around you know exactly I honestly don't

27:42
and and I wrestle with this and that's part of the lament of this record I guess is I don't I don't know how you

27:49
can spend a lifetime or a decade in scripture in theology reading

27:56
authors old and new in the church and not come away as you get older and older in life of going I need to be more kind

28:02
than I was yesterday sure I I don't know how and yet we have obvious examples of

28:08
people doing that maybe what did CS Lewis say people he was talking about artists and Poets but I think it's true

28:14
preachers a lot these days um is people who who fall out of love with the thing

28:19
and only in love with their telling of it and I think there's in Theology and

28:26
in art there's Absol that's a Temptation for all of us who feel a creative

28:31
impetus it's like oh it's it's my role to say it so I have to come up with some new way of saying it otherwise I'm

28:38
plagiarizing or whatever else it's like you know at the end of the day I don't know how you can spend so

28:46
much time in this Jesus and not come away

28:51
going there are fewer Hills to die on there are some hills sure but but there are fewer Hills to die on than there

28:57
were when was 19 yeah and and the result of that is that I ought to be kinder

29:02
through the midst of people working it out yeah and kinder to people who are getting it wrong and kinder to people I

29:08
mean Paul outright says who are we to judge the world we have enough we have enough to

29:14
work on in the church sure so it's like I think we've often got the Playbook

29:19
backwards where we're like we have the answers we're going to hit you over the head with them and we're going to put all of the energy of the church into

29:25
judging the world and I just look at I think I Paul first of all Paul tells us outright don't do that so there's that

29:33
but then on top of all it's like I don't know how you can spend more time to this and not lead with love and kindness and

29:40
mercy I don't I don't see it just beautiful yeah yeah no doubt there's

29:45
something to uh age there is right no doubt yeah there there's some things you

29:50
can not gain any other way but just another day and then another year and then you know yeah um Tik Tok tell me

29:58
about Tik Tok you're first of all I love your videos that was uh that's what got

30:04
my brain ticking about we need to get him on here because I loved your thoughts on worship yeah we we actually

30:09
uh that was my first introduction to you by all means I just said hey check this out we because we were talking about

30:14
worship we did a podcast on worship and what it means you know and and yeah so that that was that was my first

30:20
introduction to you was on T Tik Tock and it was uh yeah yeah that might have been your first introduction to Tik Tok

30:27
uh quite possibly quite possibly yes sort of a popup here or there or

30:33
something you know that kind of thing but yeah yeah yeah no I I um of course I

30:39
think I mentioned earlier I've owned a marketing agency forever and ever so that's a big part of my life um so

30:46
social media I'm very aware of and kind of trying to keep and approach it in a

30:53
healthy way as best I can um I I could probably go on Tik Tok Instagram and

30:58
just play guitar a bunch of times and I do a little bit of that um but I think I also realized just so in a lot of ways

31:08
so much of the conversation around worship is centered around commercial interest in other words like the

31:14
conferences are organized by people who are own the publishing companies who write the songs and I'm not shooting

31:19
this down I've benefited from this so I can't like you know bite the hand that feeds me so to speak um but

31:28
it it's it's sort of because of how people are tends to kind of collect

31:33
around like four Church groups and some association with those four Church groups and I think one of the beauties

31:40
of Tik Tok in particular and Instagram Reals in as much of his copied Tik Tok

31:46
um is that it is remarkably good at building communities out of

31:52
interest rather than just building communities out of existing communities so Facebook and Tik Tok are opposite

31:58
Facebook was here's your group now you can be your group here and and every

32:03
once in a while there'd be cross pollination you'd make me join a Facebook group or something like that but Facebook was never designed to grow

32:10
and create communities Facebook algorithmically was designed to monetize

32:16
communities Tik Tok is the opposite Tik Tok actively takes Creator input and

32:24
finds other people who like that input and so big part of what I've been trying to do is like I talk about worship a lot

32:31
because I'm like hey look I know I'm a I'm a weird cat in our space I'm really

32:36
into science I'm really into the E behavioral economics and sociology and

32:42
I'm you know really into theology I'm just kind of an overthinking geek and so like when it comes to my Approach To

32:49
Worship I do sometimes end up taking a position that surprises people who've

32:54
been in this a lot because I'm kind of like well I know I know that we heard that before but a it's not in the Bible

32:59
and B science doesn't back it up so how are we going to talk about this like there's you know and I kind of try to I

33:05
don't not to dismiss anybody most of the people doing worship stuff are my friends I mean I go around I talk to

33:11
hang out we have coffee that's that's my life so but I but I but I come at it from an angle of somebody who this

33:16
entire time has had my foot in the world I've been running a company for 15

33:22
years that's you know selling helping someone figure out how to find toffee

33:28
lovers I mean that's a part of what I've been doing this whole time and I think when you do when you approach Ministry

33:35
and faith and that sort of thing with that you end up with a different perspective um and and so like in Tik

33:41
Tok I think I've been bringing that to the table and I've had have had some unique experiences I guess that uh have

33:49
given me a a slightly different take on some things and I'm I'm really loving

33:54
and encouraged uh by the response I me it really has a really fast growing Community for

34:00
me I love it I've been sharing it with all kinds of people so that's probably

34:05
just you're welcome it's just you you thought it was Tik tok's

34:10
algorithms go it's just you um I I want to start wrapping up I

34:17
just have one last thing uh get your take on um performance versus worship

34:23
which we we talked a lot about this and so you might not have to say that much

34:29
um and this isn't really related but I'm going to try and make it related but uh the idea of song burnout and I know you

34:38
have dealt with this more than I because you go on tour and you play the same song in the same you know way every

34:45
single night um I guess I'm just curious how you deal with song burnout like what your thoughts are on that and then how

34:51
you separate performance from worship and is performance okay like and that's

34:57
you know yeah yeah oh no I just I hit the play button on my

35:04
keyboard start playing your song so I'm gonna two-part it I'm two-part it um

35:10
first of all the performance and worship thing because I think one informs the other yeah um absolutely yes performance

35:17
is okay I I don't know how you as a human being approach an activity you

35:23
have done before and not learn from what you did last time M so on some level you will

35:32
inevitably perform when you lead worship inevitably there is it is not going to not happen what's fascinating is that

35:39
the word itself for formo in Latin is church Latin it's compound Latin and it

35:45
means to form thoroughly so when you're working as a builder you get better at

35:51
nailing the nail with the hammer mhm when you start out you hit your thumb you do the thing is it's completely

35:58
authentic to hit your thumb with a hammer sure so all if it's just about

36:05
authenticity in the moment as opposed to authenticity in the lived life then performance is the devil but

36:14
if authenticity is more than that three minute window where you're singing that

36:19
song but it's instead who you are becoming who you have been who you are when you leave who you are when you turn

36:25
around if that's what authenticity is right it's more about living in

36:31
concordance in accordance with your values and your desired character or your desired Persona if you

36:38
will if that's what authenticity is then performance is a

36:43
nonissue true because on some level the beef between worship and performance so

36:50
to speak is actually a beef about momentary authenticity and personality consistency sure but the problem is that

36:57
you go to work and you have a different working relationship with your peers than you do with your kids and that's

37:03
good healthy and important which one of those is the real

37:09
youh so I think we have this strange cultural hangup around

37:15
authenticity that has more to do with how we've come to understand the word as a subtext rather than what it can has

37:23
has the potential to mean in our lives which is that we are true to our true north sure right it's interesting you

37:32
bring that up though because even when we are like when we are in that true

37:37
north we become more like what we call isomorphic process to where our

37:43
relationships become the same and there isn't that in congruity that is born of habit isn't it

37:50
it's born more of habit than Simple Choice sure it's not as simple as saying I'm going to now and then I do we all

37:57
know you guys working with CR you know full well that is not how it works desire alone desire matters but desire

38:04
alone does not answer the question sure H habit matters and so to that end um

38:13
one of the best pieces of advice I ever heard on performance uh was in an article an

38:19
interview with a classic female singer I think from the 50s to 60s kind of thing and they were saying the same question

38:25
how do you show up every day and sing the song like it matters right I think in my mind there's two things that play

38:32
out one the worship leader and the congregant have utterly different lives they are not you are not showing

38:40
up on Sunday as a mom of five and ready to go step one so worship leaders lead

38:45
with their Banger all the time it's a huge mistake the first two songs all you're doing at best is getting

38:51
everybody comfortable that's it if you expect more than that in the first two songs good luck to you sir but it's

38:58
those first two songs are trying to get Mom to stop feeling guilty for spatting the kid on the butt to get out the door

39:04
like that's that's you know just human life right sure and so on some level

39:09
that what the singer was talking about was like so much of what needs to happen is in the moment taking on the emotion

39:16
of the song by making it real to you so maybe if there's some emotional quality

39:21
a song is sad or Bittersweet you think about a moment in your life where that was true in your life and that emotion

39:27
is you bring forward so it's not an inauthentic pretending which is what bad performance is sure it's an authentic

39:34
becoming which allows us to connect at a very human healthy spiritual level so when it

39:42
comes to song Burn Out the exact same thing is true there's a point where it's about the song where the performance is

39:48
about the performance the performance is about my expression that's fine it's not to say that that's always evil I think

39:54
that can be really rewarding and and and encouraging at time um but if that eventually gives way to

40:01
the moment being about the shared moment or the moment being about the guy at the back of the room and somewhere in the

40:09
first year maybe 2010 Manifesto became about the guy at

40:14
the back of the room for me sure that that guy is always

40:20
there there's never a time where we play Manifesto where that guy isn't there there's never a time where the guy in

40:25
the middle of the room isn't like oh yeah and they come alive and I'll I'll play that song until I die with no shame

40:31
because it's not I do not care about the song anymore I do not care it is 100%

40:36
about the moment that we have together and all that that does in us and through us for when we leave and I'm Shameless

40:44
about it I don't care I don't want to overp spiritualize song selection it can matter at times it can be a big thing I

40:50
think we sometimes make too much of this in terms of like God is telling me this

40:56
song needs to happen maybe I mean you know most Christians prayed the same lurgy for like a thousand years

41:03
so unless we just thought the church forgot how to be Christian you know forgot everything it ever learned even

41:09
in the Reformation in reality at some point like there's something to consistency

41:16
there's something to repetition there's something to knowing that the goal is a beautiful life and that those Beautiful

41:23
Moments those Beautiful Moments fuel a beautiful life lived in Jesus and so

41:29
performance and songs and songs are prayers I mean you know what the Orthodox church has been praying the

41:35
Jesus prayer over and over and over every day forever so you know I think on some level I can be okay you know

41:42
there's um have you guys heard of uh James Ka Smith is an author uh he he

41:49
wrote a book called Desiring the kingdom and Imagining the kingdom and the pop version of that is called this is you

41:54
are what you love and talking about how human beings are not fundamentally

41:59
thinkers but are fundamentally lovers right and how all of these little

42:04
routines that we do shape what we love they shape what we're pointed towards they shape how we're going to do it and

42:12
he talks a little bit about Habit in that and that like if the only time

42:17
brushing your teeth worked was when you were focused on brushing your

42:24
teeth that's good right yeah right it doesn't sometimes you brush your teeth

42:29
because you just need to have clean teeth MH sure you know and so I think sometimes in our obsession with

42:36
momentary authenticity we sort of act as if there is something to be said too for showing up and being present to the

42:42
activity that's important but it's not as simple as saying like oh no you should be riddled with guilt if you're

42:48
singing the song this time and you're worried about the argument you just had I mean I think there's something to on T

42:54
this happen all the time my kids would be going to bed maybe my wife and I you know maybe every couple of months we get

43:00
on the phone because I've been away a lot and we're a little snippy at each other or something right before I'm

43:05
supposed to take the stage right so if momentary authenticity was the thing I was supposed to be concerned about the

43:11
entire show would be railroaded and I'd be treating the room as my personal therapists I am not in the head space

43:19
having you know us having had a little bickering snit 5 minutes earlier I'm not in a head space to but that that's just

43:26
selfishness m m yeah and and so stepping into the role for a moment to love and

43:33
serve the room and put things in their right place and sort out this other thing in my life in in its right context

43:39
in a healthy way I think that's just healthy emot that's just emotional health of some level you know and so I

43:45
think I think you know a little bit of compartmentalization is normal and healthy in and every therapist I've ever

43:52
been to has said that too like there is a little bit of that that is normal good

43:58
I feel like we have a few of these hangups as worship leaders um the average person going to work doesn't

44:04
have yeah and they're not like going to work and going well I can't show up for

44:09
work today because of this thing happen I can't nope sorry I had this this fight

44:16
with my kid and so I'm calling in sick for the next 14 days like most people don't have that option yeah so sometimes

44:24
I wonder why do we think we do you know no doubt that's good you're uh Megan

44:30
will be happy to hear your answer and put me in my place so no I I've known all this stuff to be

44:37
true it's just I struggle with song burnout I struggle with caring and I

44:42
really care about the new songs and I'm into it and I'm passionate about it and

44:47
then I'm done with it and yeah well I think for me songs aren't the thing right and that's what I I have to learn

44:55
and that's what she's gotten down She's Everything You Said She Said in one way or another that's why sorry she's my

45:01
favorite over you um just kidding U but yeah I think that's always been my

45:07
struggle is like well the emotional intelligence

45:12
right it's it's that idea of this isn't about me and I still haven't figured that out and I try I try I mean I don't

45:19
want to pretend like I'm so expert at this I'm in the same boat I'm just I think I think there's a live performance

45:25
coach named Tom Jackson ago who sort of pointed out even in concerts even if you're not thinking talk a strict

45:31
technicality of music and doing music well right that nobody remembers your

45:37
song they remember the moment you made of the song and the part of the reason I say

45:44
this as a guy in it nobody Shoot Me part of the reason

45:50
part of the reason that worship leaders are so obsessed with songs is because that was the only way companies could

45:57
Mone worship it is the publishing engine that

46:02
drives us to be concerned with songs because that's the only part of it

46:07
that can be sold yeah and so like and I sell things for a living I'm not trying

46:13
to be cynical about it I'm say it's not there's no Ro that but we need to see it for what it is in order to do it

46:19
healthfully sure and so I think there's really something to like hey you know what the song is a means to an end and

46:26
that end is a moment of shared prayer that forms Us in the long R and probably

46:34
repetition plays a way bigger role than we are wanting to admit in what that is

46:40
no doubt good thank you thank you for the hand slap no I did not mean it that

46:47
way hey if they need it you need it though come on now it's okay I'm just messing no well we don't want to keep

46:53
you all well I would keep you all day but I know Mark doesn't want to keep you all day and you don't want to be kept

46:59
all day so this is great this is a lot of fun yeah this is well know that we appreciate your time and and your wisdom

47:06
thank you so much like you say I uh I didn't I hope I didn't offend you in that process of steeping I'm just

47:12
recognizing that I'm not as musically inclined but yet I have I desire to live

47:17
a life of worship either way and so that's uh yeah that's where it comes from I should have probably said it more

47:23
from a musical standpoint but no no I think it's spot on I'm not offended in the slightest well know that I we I we

47:31
appreciate the time you have uh you have given us it's been a pleasure and sharing how you see it CU it's amazing

47:38
yeah yeah it's a great well thank you guys appreciate you both this has been tons of fun well we're we're glad to

47:44
have had you on the on the podcast all right so so uh Justin will

47:49
Justin will definitely send you a link when we release so you can uh you can listen to what you uh what you share

48:00
hey thank you for listening to our podcast if you like how I see it please

48:06
do all the things that podcasts tell you to do subscribe rate review follow us uh

48:13
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48:19
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48:30
tell your friends about this show and we'll see you on the next one

48:36
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