0:00
foreign [Music]

0:07
what the heck you don't have to do it now but oh well you can do it a little late I just he

0:16
said I had to click on it and I did yeah it's giving me something else

0:22
it's technology heck with that I know exactly that feeling when people send me

0:29
a link oh you need to check this out and I click on it it's like I need to sign up for something like no get this away from me yeah don't don't send me some

0:37
other advertising to go some other place yeah I don't know what I'm signing up for Yes I'm afraid I'm gonna be hacked

0:45
you probably already are I am all right are we ready to do this I am

0:53
okay we know as I check my Instagram first yes please do yes by all means

1:00
gotta get that squared away you ready Jeff is his name that's that's good

1:05
stuff to write and write it down yeah yeah it's not like we haven't known each

1:12
other for a long time it's true is it Jeff or Jeffrey Molly and my mother call me Jeffrey oh

1:20
can I I'm gonna call you Jeff Rito wow that that'll be a new one

1:27
that's uh Jeff Winstead that's what they used to call him oh really Latinos yeah oh wow

1:33
sure okay so today we have our first oh Jeff

1:40
guest wow illustrious guest named Jeff the Lindholm our first Lynn home as well

1:47
I agreed definitely agreed uh he and his lovely wife Molly moved here um teen

1:54
years ago I don't know what that number is 10 10 years ago can it be umpteen if

2:00
it's only ten no it's not in the teens yeah I don't know is there is there a

2:05
hard limit on um Team I I would think there would be yeah yeah but it's okay almost a decade I would say 10 fits into

2:13
umpteen okay now we know that's the truth Jeff's what's the truth I would

2:20
say based on the how the word ends teen if I have to be a number between 13 and

2:25
19. all right I'd agree I agree I'm not a mathematician so I have I have not

2:30
been here um teen years yet okay [Music]

2:39
welcome to how I see it with me Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a

2:46
podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful

2:51
conversations [Music] well you're working on it on his way

2:58
back to the point Jeff's been here almost umpteen years yes and almost he's

3:03
been a part when he first got here he joined a small group from our church which happens a bit in the small group

3:08
that me and my wife let so we had the pleasure of being a small group with Jeff for oh cool some years which is

3:14
really awesome we got to know him really well um we've spent a lot of time together over the years we do ministry together

3:20
in various capacities uh and Jeff is on the teaching staff at Generations Church

3:27
um which is a slight tie into why we brought him in today although I mean we'd love to hear Jeff talk about many

3:32
many things but we have a specific tie-in which is truth he did a message

3:38
um in a series called God is where we talked about various attributes right and um Jeff covered the one on Truth

3:46
which was uh pretty heavy and pretty weighty I mean it was like it was there was a lot of solid yes it was good it

3:52
was very uh it was awesome to listen to it not we'll definitely link to that so once you finish this episode you can go

3:58
check out his message or you can go the other direction you can listen to that first so you get a little sense of who Jeff is

4:04
um so one thing I know is that almost as soon as I met Jeff I'm like this guy

4:11
needs a blog or he needs a vlog or he needs to podcast or I'm like this guy is

4:16
smart and he needs to start doing some stuff and uh he's as if to say he wasn't

4:22
doing stuff yeah I mean once you hear him start talking you're like yeah where else can I listen to this guy all right

4:30
yeah and then the rest of the stuff is like come on Jeff that stuff doesn't count yeah gotcha

4:36
uh no he does some sort of mathy work or reporting work or something I mean

4:41
something with career-wise and I'm just like Jeff forget that start a vlog

4:47
um and I remember there was a specific blog that you referenced right yes originally it is she knows right.com

4:55
right and I encourage you to start he knows.com he knows yes he didn't do

5:02
it but he did eventually start a blog that he well like one Post in in

5:08
in defense of truth and you actually created it Justin yes oh because because

5:13
you were doing a lot of stuff with WordPress and he found the domain and

5:18
it's actually he knows SS .wordpress.org or whatever it is

5:24
um it says what does the s's stand for well let's see that was one of the things that I had to establish in one of my very first blog posts is why are

5:32
there are two extraneous s's at the end we need to get a link to that post and

5:38
we'll put that in the show notes it's still out there yeah I haven't updated it in what seven eight years or something like that

5:45
but it's still out there so I'm continuing my efforts okay so this eyes we started this podcast so that I could

5:53
get Jeff onto a podcast oh no not really wow but it's a good excuse that's fair

5:59
enough it makes me feel important it makes Mark feel less important sorry Mark it's all about Jeff

6:05
not a not a concern truth be told everybody that comes in here we almost encourage him to start their blog you

6:11
know people have a lot of information to share yeah it's cool and everyone's yeah

6:17
uh perspective is so unique and distinct yeah yeah um so all of that being said we'd love

6:24
to hear a little bit about you from you not just my anecdotal version of Jeff but yeah yeah share a little about

6:31
yourself how tall are you I'm 72 inches tall okay nice thank you that's a good round what

6:38
else you got I I've mentioned it up on stage at

6:43
Generations a couple of times I my degree is in mathematics sure and many people don't expect to hear someone

6:50
preaching with a math degree they expect someone with a theological degree of some kind I've never been to Seminary

6:57
and so I was very surprised when Troy wanted me to start preaching sermons I'm

7:03
like I'm not qualified you need to have a degree you need to have training to do all that stuff right

7:09
that was your thought that was my thought uh apparently I was incorrect he

7:15
said nope you're gonna be up on stage without all that stuff well so a little bit and we're thankful to have you there

7:21
in all honesty yeah yeah a little structure you bring is refreshing and it's just the way you do it yeah he'd

7:29
been doing it for a while Troy is like looking across the audience

7:35
oh that guy looks very handsome and he looks a little bit like he has a

7:40
math degree I think we'll get him up here valid point um and you spoke in you know other

7:46
venues and you know there was a clear track record there I just thought sure yeah back when I lived in Minneapolis at

7:54
the at the company I worked for there was a Toastmasters Club and if you are not familiar with Toastmasters it's an

8:00
international organization that um it gives people opportunities to speak publicly and it gives them opportunities

8:06
to develop leadership skills and so I joined that club and I was able to give

8:12
several speeches and compete in a couple of competitions neat so that's my public

8:17
speaking experience and then when I got involved in CR Justin and Megan started

8:23
putting me on the schedule to have speaking roles it started out with hosting

8:29
just sharing a little bit of my experience for a couple minutes and then I started teaching some of those lessons

8:36
out of the curriculum and Troy happened to be in the audience for several of those Fridays sure and

8:44
I can't speak for him but he must have seen something seen some sort of potential that had me get on his radar

8:51
and then he was also in the audience in 2019 I believe it was or 2018 when I

8:57
gave my my testimony oh sure and um that was when he approached me

9:04
the first time and said I think you're going to be up on stage on a Sunday to preach a sermon and I blew him off

9:10
completely because I'm like oh yeah thank you for the compliment that's all I accepted it as but little did I know

9:16
he was actually serious sure sure Troy voice was distinctly lacking in Texas

9:21
draw I I can't I can't do it there are only certain accents that I can do

9:27
really well all right give them a different accent then English accent

9:36
you're putting me on the spot yeah I think that would have been a great segue for a British accent you're putting me

9:41
on the spot that you missed your you missed your chance there you know but don't you worry Mark took that yes I

9:49
didn't do it as well but appreciate it is a good word yeah

9:55
unfortunately we're not drinking any spots of tea well you know but

10:02
all right so more about yourself what else would you like to share Jeff and then uh you chose not to join like

10:07
Toastmasters when you came to this area I mean I realized there is one I was just curious how that process worked I I

10:14
looked for Toastmasters groups and there were a couple okay the it was just

10:19
really difficult because they met at a time when it wasn't gotcha it wasn't

10:24
convenient oh that's fair enough and I didn't I don't know up in Minneapolis all I had to do was

10:31
cross the street in order to attend the club sure down here I would have had to drive all the way down to shallot and

10:36
I'm like no that's why I was yeah I knew there was a group not that I belong or anything but I just yeah unless he nerdy

10:43
mastered the toast so well hey you know I uh you know work in progress yeah I

10:48
was gonna say it's one of those things you know have you mastered marriage you know that would be like have you

10:53
mastered Republic speaking type stuff but yeah always learning yeah he's a student I'd like to hear a toast

11:00
by Jeff at some point oh see if you really did Master it

11:05
I I gave the uh the toast at my brother's wedding nice and people said I

11:10
did a good job they didn't say you mastered it no not by any means you said you're a toast good

11:18
toast adequate maybe thank you thank you for coming in as

11:23
long as he wasn't toasted at the wedding yeah yeah or roasted yeah yeah all right

11:29
so anything else you'd like to share the sky's the limit this guy's limit yeah favorite color purple uh I've been

11:37
married yeah because of the Vikings right actually that's a little tidbit

11:42
so I I grew up in Minnesota yeah yeah like like I did like Justin we did not

11:48
know each other we were on opposite ends of the of the Twin Cities area so we had almost no opportunity to run into each

11:55
other yeah and Molly as well Molly lovely life yeah Molly spent her entire

12:00
she was born and raised in in Minnesota she lived in Stillwater which is on the east side of the Twin Cities metro area

12:07
cool uh I grew up in Eagan before moving away and living in other

12:13
places but then we ended up back in Prior Lake and that's where my family is now we've sat we've had some eagans on

12:19
our show before Oh no that's a vegan sorry about that yes wait hold on which one is it yeah

12:32
wrong one [Music] there was supposed to be a drum roll

12:38
folks found it that's the bottom right there

12:44
you go nice job there yeah that's our signal of where I crop it okay

12:51
oh man that was something yeah don't push that button top left never push it

12:57
you know it would have been a good intro I will say no idea but it's a little 90s back to you and Molly yeah you Matt in

13:05
that area I met in school correct because we met in college that's right we attended Lawrence University in Appleton Wisconsin there you go uh she

13:13
did yes so the first time I ever laid eyes on her was in Summerton South

13:19
Carolina it was during our spring break crew trip oh cool to a 4-H Camp called Camp Bob

13:26
Cooper nice she's a year older than me so she was part of the varsity team and I was still just a freshman novice

13:33
and I'm doing what doing rowing they did they couldn't see my

13:38
oh that's right it's not a it's not a video exactly just was over in his chair just doing a rowing motion with his arms

13:45
looking at me with this kind of half grin on his face I was trying to tee you up

13:51
so yes both Molly and I were on the crew team which is Nate rowing the sport and

14:00
I like I said she was a year older than me so I wasn't in a good position to get

14:06
to know her my freshman year but I did notice her and I thought she was very pretty there you go but then the

14:12
following year we were still both on the crew team and I since we were both on varsity at that point I had more

14:18
opportunities to talk to her flirt with her all that good stuff yeah even all these years later you still

14:25
think she's pretty so that's a cool thing absolutely absolutely yes and I say that based on the fact that

14:31
we're in a small group together now so I could say it's not that uh yeah oh yeah I forgot about that yeah yeah Jeff and I

14:38
have some experience that goes yeah yeah but don't say it like that

14:46
you have experience with Jeff as well yeah yeah no it's cool yeah yeah you want to share some of his dirty laundry

14:52
nah okay I won't either not my thing I already did he didn't start his blog

14:57
well no he didn't he I started a Blog he posted a couple times yes that's the dirty laundry I got so not too dirty not

15:05
too bad anything else you'd like to share Jeff people often ask me what I do for work

15:11
yeah and what do you do for work the company I work for is Voya financial and

15:18
it's difficult to explain what I do in a single sentence because people always kind of look at me

15:23
like what does that even mean they're those little orange bunny rabbits right the origami dollar bills yeah yes yeah

15:29
it used to be an orange ball when it was ing right correct yeah okay ing sold off

15:35
its American Holdings because they wanted to consolidate just in Europe and we were um we were bought out by Voya Financial

15:42
at that point gotcha so I work with data in order to build reports

15:50
for our internal business partners so that they can manage their lines of business

15:57
effectively nice so they know who to fire no hopefully it doesn't come to that but

16:02
cool so you do logarithms basically figuring things out along that line statistics

16:09
not really okay there the the the primary business areas that

16:16
we support are call centers okay and so we have system set up that record all

16:21
sorts of call information when a call comes in when it ends which directions this call goes and then

16:29
my job is to take all of those disparate pieces of data and consolidate them into

16:34
a view of some kind that communicates something important so that a manager

16:40
will see are we successful in meeting our customers needs

16:45
which customer service representative needs more coaching to be more effective

16:51
in his or her position stuff like that okay yeah depending on The View

16:56
depending on The View yeah sure it's a pretty good segue yeah take all these

17:01
pieces of data this disparate pieces of data to what was the rest of it build a

17:08
view create a specific view yeah I think that's a good segue to truth like what

17:14
we'd like to discuss so again talking about the message or you know kind of

17:19
the tie into this is that you give a message on truth and that that's one of the primary characteristics that we

17:26
would define God as which was pretty cool it was a great message but um yeah so like

17:32
one thing that like that thing you just described sounded very much like what you did in that message where you took

17:38
all these disparate pieces of information and compiled them together to create a view of who God was right yeah this this truth right was truth is

17:46
the view and like your pieces of data they don't all the disparate pieces of

17:52
information don't just equate to that one view you could also compile them to create another view

17:57
to define a different characteristic right um and in the same way that series was

18:03
kind of doing the same thing compiling these disparate pieces of information to create a view of God in truth and what

18:10
was uh some of the other characteristics do you remember uh Troy preached that God was knowable knowable and

18:19
crickets what was this other one we'll get back to you folks So today we're

18:25
talking about true in this particular view so we have a few questions for Jeff

18:30
um the first one being what is truth and uh I also had to mention this there was

18:37
a listener request for this topic by judge Jason dispro yeah so he's gonna be

18:43
he's going to know what you have this no pressure but you know a lot of pressure because the judge is gonna base his

18:49
version of Truth on what you say so you could have a lot of lives at stake here okay I just but no pressure

18:57
you are not helping me at all before this podcast started recording I sat

19:03
down very tentatively and everyone's like are you okay and I said I'm nervous it's just a conversation yeah but I'm

19:10
being recorded there you go and now you're telling me that lives hanging the balance thanks Justin you're welcome

19:17
you're welcome not fragile lives though right not fragile okay all these lives are pretty well

19:24
healthy people you're not gonna so you know necessarily sway them one way or the other so just you know that part you

19:31
can relax about okay I'll try sure you got this so what is truth in your you

19:38
know View that is one of those very deep questions

19:44
that's why we invited you yeah but it's one of those questions because we've sandbagged on this issue for a

19:50
while I'll be honest I kind of got that impression yeah Justin was saying we've been wanting to talk to this for a long

19:57
time we just haven't been called in the troops so it was it was neat because when uh

20:03
you and I happen to be sitting together when Jeff preached that Sunday did we not were we not sitting together

20:08
yeah yeah we were sitting together so it was like we both kind of clicked in that moment it's like oh yeah this is a good

20:15
person to just address this topic with because it's like who can you ask you

20:21
know and we we thought of different people of course and a judge is a good thing but then it's like there was a person up on a stage talking about it's

20:27
like okay that's our guy

20:37
please don't consider me an expert because uh we appreciate your value your

20:42
Viewpoint and that's why we do how we see it yeah and that is why we call it how we see it it's kind of our little

20:47
disclaimer like this is this is from my perspective but we understand that it is limited to my perspective and that's

20:53
okay sure and we're about that so sure so

20:59
I knew you were going to ask me that question so I tried to hmm preemptively come up with a response and

21:07
there are different ways that I can answer it I mean should I answer it as a lay person should I answer it as a

21:12
philosopher or should I answer it as a Christian yes of course all of the above all of the above so a lay person might

21:19
say truth is what conforms to objective reality

21:26
a philosopher would say oh it has to it has to be knowable it has to be

21:32
discoverable it has to be applicable across time across cultures

21:38
and go into detail on all those things as a as a Christian

21:45
I would say that God is truth and that was the subject of my sermon and

21:52
because God is the embodiment of Truth he is the definition of truth

21:57
anything that comes directly from God is also truth and that would include his

22:02
son his Spirit and the words that he says because the words that God speaks

22:08
come from his heart and his mind which again are truth

22:13
we'll see yeah and I think and I think so often I

22:19
think Justin and I were talking earlier so often I think you know I think it's more as as we have to

22:25
separate those two I think that separation is almost more of a new

22:31
experience you follow me as truth has become more relative we have to divide

22:37
it off and I think there was a time when our when historically speaking those

22:42
weren't so far apart you know you know we had I think there was more of a a

22:48
spiritual realm to who people could be there was this acknowledgment and I think as we've you know divided that

22:55
somewhat it's become more difficult and we've had to divide truth from science maybe even as you you know shared about

23:03
the philosophy type you know dynamic is it provable is it is it you know something that I can manufacture you

23:10
know routinely and I think you know that's a a more recent phenomena as far

23:15
as I'm concerned of how truth has been become more as truth has become more

23:20
relative as we see it you know we've had to divide that more and more

23:26
and you can rebut that by all means if you want I mean it sounds like you're

23:32
describing post-modernism sure the the philosophy of post-modernism is sure which became popular in the mid 20th

23:38
century and the thesis statement if you will is that ultimate truth does not exist all truth

23:45
is relative sure and so truth is what you make of it essentially but even though we attribute that to

23:52
post-modernism which is only you know 70 80 years old at this point sure it's

23:57
actually far older than that fair enough um there was

24:02
a portion of my sermon that I ended up cutting for time where I talked about Jesus's interaction with Pontius Pilate

24:09
in John chapter 18. sure where Jesus says okay pilate you say that I'm

24:16
a king but it is for this reason that I was born and came into the world to

24:22
testify to the truth sure anyone who is on the side of Truth listens to me so

24:29
Jesus is saying I am the standard of Truth and pilate is recorded as

24:34
basically blowing a raspberry and saying what is truth sure so this idea that

24:39
there is no ultimate standard of truth and truth is relative goes all the way back to ancient Rome it's recorded in in

24:47
scripture and pilate turned his back and walked out to the Jews turning his back on the ultimate

24:55
standard of Truth who was able to answer his own question sure what is truth

25:00
and he he just let that hang and he's just oh it's one of the the biggest disservices to humanity ever recorded in

25:07
my opinion I wish he would have stayed to listen to Jesus answer that question hmm no doubt yeah thank you yeah

25:16
we actually this is the good stuff we get that didn't even hit the sermon that's right too yeah this is the cut

25:24
version that's right of the b-roll I mean April and you know this is the

25:30
message was b-roll it wasn't as good as this stuff so there you go no I love it in the message though that you so

25:36
basically you just made some claims right about truth um specifically God is truth right like

25:43
that's a that's a significant claim and if you don't believe it then that changes everything right so it's kind of

25:49
a top-down understanding of Truth in one of the things I really enjoyed about that message is you validated the claims

25:55
based on what we have available to us and again I would definitely recommend

26:01
going to listen to it because it you know especially if you do struggle with doubt about God being truth and that

26:08
being a valid claim uh I definitely recommend you listen to it because it is

26:14
great it definitely helps to draw the picture and now after that if you

26:19
disagree that you'll have a very clear picture of what it is we believe in why

26:25
we believe it and why we're so drawn to it right um but yeah I definitely recommend that

26:31
um but I think you know what what we're getting at is this idea of relative truth and you know and you know it was

26:38
post-modernism now it's just your truth my truth I think that's well that's your truth man you know and uh I think

26:45
without a central truth like a universal

26:51
Central top of the food chain type of truth then you only have that option

26:56
you're only left with that poster modern version of well there's only relative

27:02
truth because there's only what I perceive as truth in comparison to what you perceive as truth in comparison to

27:08
what Mark sees that truth that's all we have because the deer their opinions don't matter right like uh the aliens

27:15
maybe their opinions matter because they created us but we don't know that right so we're left with just all these

27:22
viewpoints into what we perceive as truth and which ones actually true you know it gets super fuzzy and so it's no

27:31
wonder that this is kind of where it's at you know or kind of where we gravitate to without an acceptance of

27:37
that yeah any thoughts

27:42
in studying apologetics it's one of the things that apologetics

27:47
teaches you to do is to point out where opposing World Views go

27:54
awry sure and with all truth is relative ultimate truth

28:00
does not exist or if it does it's not knowable it's a self-defeating claim because you can always ask

28:06
is it absolutely true sure that there is no absolute truth

28:12
because if you say well no it's not true then you can't even put out the claim

28:18
that truth is relative but if you admit yes it is absolutely true then you have

28:23
defeated your own claim so ultimate truth does exist no matter what you believe and it is knowable

28:30
even by saying there is no absolute truth you've proved it and so you can

28:36
never really truly get away from the fact that ultimate truth does exist and

28:41
it is knowable it's just where you go from there that kind of shows the attitude of your heart I would say sure

28:48
I that I think that there's a there's a good tie into one of the things I wanted to reference was in that message again

28:56
you you use math at one point right as a kind of a way to validate a certain

29:01
claim or whatever and um I just thought that was so interesting not just because of that particular illustration you made but we

29:09
math is one of those things that is universally accepted as

29:15
truth right like those you cannot disprove one plus one equals two no

29:21
matter how many times you put one apple next to another Apple it never turns into three apples right it's it's two

29:27
you can't it's silly to even think about it being something different right

29:33
um so I I love I'd love to hear a little bit of your perspective on how math and truth you know like just any thoughts

29:39
you have on that but I think that's fascinating he's got some thoughts I I do because it it reminds me of why I

29:45
went down the math track to begin with and I can remember it was back in my my

29:51
sophomore year of high school I was taking an English class and we were reading Of Mice and Men

29:56
and there's a if you've because if it's been years since I've read the book and it's probably been years since you've read the book too

30:02
I've not read it so well there's a character in the book named Curly and

30:08
the the two main characters they are working on this farm and curly is like

30:14
the four men of the farm something like that and it says in the book his name is

30:20
Curly because he had tight curls in his hair and so my English teacher was quizzing

30:28
us on our reading comprehension and one of the questions was why is his name curly and so I said is because of his

30:34
hair she marked the question incorrect so I he's one of those she's one of

30:39
those so I I went up to her desk with my book in hand and I quoted the passage

30:45
directly from the text and I said why did you mark this Incorrect and she said Jeff

30:52
he's curly because he's short-tempered he's curled up just ready to break

30:58
and I said what a crock of crap and I realized

31:05
with math it is absolutely true either it is one one plus one is two or it is

31:13
not and it's easy to prove Things based on what has been established as

31:18
irrefutable and I said I am going to go with truth because it makes sense and so

31:26
for from that point on I I really didn't care about my English classes I was more focused on on math and science because

31:32
it was you can actually argue tangible points and it's not arbitrary right you're not

31:40
walking into a world of unknowable things where you can argue anything and

31:45
as long as your argument is persuasive it's true there are lots of arguments that are persuasive that are complete

31:52
bunk and I just yeah yeah so so I can identify I always thought that my I

31:58
wrote better papers than my grades reflected

32:05
yes so I can I get I appreciate that appeal to be able to say yeah you know it is it's either right or wrong in math

32:13
you know it's not so subject yeah but I not that I don't appreciate good

32:18
writing of course but absolutely still yeah yeah and so that was just why I I gravitated

32:24
toward math as a as a mental discipline yeah so in in you know that being true

32:31
that there's this whole segment of our knowledge that we can attribute to

32:37
truth right like we can say one plus one always equals two I mean even that right

32:43
going back to the relative argument every truth is relative well then why can't we get away from that right like

32:50
Why can't your version of one plus one equals three because there's still always two apples like you know so

32:57
you know again I think that I love your point I mean that's you know

33:03
I can't wait to use that in the future like it's it's just disproving itself but I mean I think there's also very

33:10
um clear definitions of Truth out there that also debunk it to just say well what about what was one equals two what

33:17
do you how is that how can you say that that is relative um to which I think maybe there could be

33:23
an argument and they would make the argument no we just all agree you know I don't know

33:29
it depends on the consequences because you can make a you can make any truth

33:34
claim you want but what are the consequences of it it

33:40
putting a truth claim out there is laying a foundation for other things to be built on top of it sure and so if you

33:46
put out a truth claim that's easily falsifiable you're building a structure on something that is a foundation that

33:53
is Warped or cracked and so the world view you attempt to construct will eventually fall down in on itself

34:00
sure if it's not based on truth exactly yeah one of my favorite quotes about truth is

34:06
Marx what do you always say about truth all truth is oh do I say I say truth has

34:13
three sides oh I don't know if I heard that one that one I might like that one too there's yours mine in the truth uh

34:21
because I believe when two people come together everyone's come up in this spot yeah yeah

34:27
because I think we can both in a conversation based on the fact you know

34:32
that that's what it is it's a conversation I think there are aspects when we both see something we don't

34:39
necessarily see it perfectly we see it from our vantage point

34:45
so I therefore when you and I see something we both have aspects of that

34:50
if it were recorded you know for us to rewind and watch we would likely both

34:57
have some truths but ideally that recorded or the actual version would

35:04
actually be the truth yeah and so that's where that line comes from and I think you know that comes out of my background

35:11
working with people who see things so differently you know where that Truth

35:16
where there again it becomes well that's my truth you know versus my spouse's

35:23
truth that can be or can appear to be so different and like you say that's just

35:29
the way you know we we operate and yeah why testimonies aren't necessarily always accurate all that good stuff but

35:36
yeah and I so I'm drawing a blank on the other one of the uh we'll we'll come

35:42
back then okay real quick you can make a Segway however you desire from there

35:48
no this is great because uh that kind of ties back to Jeff a statement about what

35:55
are the consequences to your version of the truth and I think what happens in those conversations because you said if

36:00
you played back the recording right so we're recording is truth right we'll we'll call that the truth and depending

36:08
on the level of consequences I've attributed to my version of the truth is depend often dependent on how much I see

36:14
my version of the truth in the truth sure right so like you could play back the things they see it's exactly what I

36:20
said and the other person said no what are you talking about is exactly what I said right and interestingly enough

36:25
they're both looking at the same truth and coming to different conclusions because of the consequences they've

36:31
attributed to their version of the truth right like if I'm wrong she's right and therefore it crumbles my position over

36:38
here right and vice versa and um I think that's a perfect example of like we build truths on these faulty

36:45
foundations and often the idea of rebuilding Our Truth on a

36:52
different Foundation is insurmountable many times to where we cling and we

36:57
cling and we cling in in CR Celebrate Recovery we call that denial right like it's like we have to have this be true

37:04
because any other version is insurmountable as an imperceivable to

37:10
rebuild everything I built my life on this version of the truth and say but it's it's the foundation's wrong I get

37:16
it to tear it out and rebuild on the correct thing um as I think sometimes getting

37:22
someone motivated and committed to the truth is

37:27
a much bigger task as you've experienced in counseling than than you would think of just showing them the footage like

37:35
sure look it's right there black and white very clear to see and yet we still come to it with our our clinging right

37:42
and those consequences that we've we've built um I don't know I just think that was as

37:48
super interesting um and yet

37:53
um a lot of times the best way to dissolve that is to have those softer

37:59
how I see it conversations right to be able to say sure let's talk about why do you see it this way and being able to

38:06
share about how I see it which is a really what this podcast is about Jeff is our idea of like let's soften these

38:14
subjects by talking about it from a relative truth perspective right like I

38:19
understand I don't con I don't hold all the truth I I understand that I have a particular view from a report Jeff built

38:26
for me right like or Justin built for me right like I have a particular view into the truth and that view I feel pretty

38:33
solid on it but I recognize that it is not the truth it's a view into the truth and then at the same time Mark has his

38:40
view as well and the goal is to be able to have these conversations that peer into the truth from two perspectives

38:46
which broaden our full view of the full truth and you know we found over the

38:53
years like we're very like-minded so our view is a lot closer to the truth you know like a similar view than

39:01
you know that maybe we'd like but it's great and that's why we have other people on is because now we have a three

39:06
positions coming at the truth um but yeah so I think that you know in

39:12
terms of those conversations and counseling or whatever right A lot of times it's about softening those consequences to say

39:20
let's let's let's lower sure because like Jeff was saying if my

39:25
truth is partly based on fallacy and I'm willing to admit that that actually

39:31
softens me to a different up to another person's Viewpoint and I'm able to see

39:37
it in a broader perspective and I and I think part of the reason and and you can

39:42
push back against the chef I think part of the the reason that we come back to

39:47
saying there is a God is because we can recognize that so often I only have a

39:55
facet that I'm viewing of Truth in comparison to who God is that there's such a a broad perspective

40:04
it it if push back again correct me if I'm wrong that kind of thing but it can

40:09
I I would see it in a in a concept that truth is so big God is so big that in

40:16
some ways my truth of who God is can very what much be relative at times

40:21
because there's so much to see from different perspectives and but being able to recognize that there is

40:28
one truth that's so much bigger than all of us or you know we came from you know

40:35
I think that um you used it in a hierarchical sense yeah you know to the degree of being able to recognize

40:41
ultimately truth is self-sustaining and it doesn't re we we

40:47
need to rely on it uh well I apologize you had um

40:53
Authority was the authority the um Authority yes if you don't mind just it

40:59
you can probably make what I was trying to say more succinct by all means I I made a brief point that we accept

41:06
something as true when it is validated by a higher a higher state of authority

41:11
sure so the the reason the reason why our local leaders have authority to make

41:18
decisions that are binding to us is because they get their Authority from a

41:23
state level Authority yes and the reason the state has its Authority is because it is validated from above by a National

41:30
Authority and our founding fathers understood that the National Authority had to be accountable to something even

41:37
higher of course in modern times we're getting away from that and it's just

41:42
having pretty devastating consequences but human beings we

41:49
we kind of naturally do that we don't accept something as true when it's validated From Below

41:59
I I suppose there there are always counter examples but those counter examples are very few and far between we

42:06
are very reluctant to accept something as true from a source that we consider inferior

42:13
would it would it would it would uh as I think of that that

42:18
um that saying from the mouth of babes I think you know that that becomes you know that becomes is that kind of like

42:25
what you're equating to it's hard to accept some truth if it's someone who we

42:31
see as being less than or younger at times you know but yet they see the

42:37
world in such a different way you know based children I mean Jesus acknowledges

42:42
you know how important that child likeness that childlike view of faith is

42:49
and I think that's an important thing but well Jeff said there's very few examples of where truth from below is

42:56
accepted and I think I I immediately think the only examples that come to mind are Jesus validating truth from a

43:02
lesser Source right children saying let them come they have they have Faith like

43:08
you don't understand like your face should be like theirs right or um the woman who gave everything with just her

43:14
little coin you know or like many examples he validated someone that no one cared about and said they have The

43:21
Truth Listen to them right but but in those examples what was the ultimate truth that Jesus

43:27
was affirming it was the truth from God the Father sure he was essentially

43:32
calling out you have your version of Truth that you are trying to validate From

43:39
Below to apply to God and the you know the ultimate tapestry of of Truth as we

43:45
see it and Jesus is saying that's incorrect if you let God validate his

43:52
own truth which is the ultimate truth you will see how these children are correct in this instance or or that

43:59
woman who gave everything she had with that tiny little copper coin

44:04
yeah yeah so if I may then I'm not sure that Justin I got right how do you see those

44:11
what are those areas where you do see it coming from Up From Below up

44:18
can you give me an example where it's valid yeah that that a lesser Authority

44:24
um I I guess

44:29
it would be probably those those examples where you know out of the mouths of children and childlike Faith

44:35
okay it's it's hard for parents to say my child is speaking truth right now

44:41
because my child is Young Not educated you know sure not it doesn't have a lot

44:47
of experience not a lot of wisdom but it is still possible for a child to speak truth sure and with the correct

44:54
perspective if you recognize that the words coming out of this child's mouth validate God's word from above sure

45:04
than it does with that perspective it does flip things in this instance my

45:09
child is invoking truth from a higher authority that now beats mine yeah yeah

45:16
no and that's and I just I want to make sure we were on the same page with that with that thought but yeah and then um

45:22
as you as you shared it may be uh to that degree

45:28
what becomes the your bigger concern when you see a government that doesn't

45:35
acknowledge God I would say it comes down to

45:41
accountability okay if you are accountable to a higher power

45:48
you're going to essentially police your own behavior um one of the reasons why we

45:55
don't break the law is because we fear the consequences of breaking the law sure if we get caught we know we will be

46:02
punished we will be held accountable but if you destroy the if you destroy God or

46:08
pretend he doesn't exist then the government is the highest Authority in the land

46:14
they determine what is right and what is wrong hmm which means they can then write

46:21
legislation that makes them always right regardless of what they're attempting to

46:27
do sure they're not accountable to anyone else and we've seen throughout history when governments do that the

46:35
citizens always suffer um sure yeah

46:40
no and I'm and I'm mindful as like you say as as we Mark I mean March I should

46:47
say or walk further from being able to acknowledge you know as as we as a

46:54
culture I'll say you know start tearing things down if you will that kind of have that

47:00
crosses and you know that spiritual I guess would be a good you

47:06
know or God image in them you know as we start to tear that down we can see how

47:11
some of those things and that becomes your concern is ultimately how people who are created in God's image are

47:17
ultimately treated by those in power that that becomes the bigger concern for you in

47:24
that Dynamic oh yeah yeah no I appreciate you sharing I mean I just I was curious on your your personal view

47:30
yeah and and in those concerns yeah in even in

47:36
I mean kind of what you were alluding to with our government is like it's fading from those original

47:42
intentions in the sense that now we say the authority is the people more in a

47:49
token fashion than in true fashion you know where I think originally it was really meant to be as

47:56
you know true as possible that that you know the legislation or legislators were

48:03
completely accountable to who voted them in where now all there's so much uh I

48:08
mean we've been playing the game for 200 years right so they've gotten it down pretty good to where

48:14
you know knowing how to work the system play the game right to where you can get

48:19
to the top without necessarily being accountable to the people who voted you it right and some of that is you know

48:27
going back to truth right some of that is you know covering the truth you know

48:33
fudging the truth you know there's a lot of um or compromise right like saying I'm I

48:38
will do this for you and then you get into office and saying well I can't really do that right I never really

48:44
could but I'm not going to say that I'm gonna say the other side is now preventing me from doing this right so

48:50
there's a lot of like manipulation of Truth you know um and to wear it to where

48:56
if we don't have and here's the thing too like even the people being the

49:01
highest Authority is problematic and I would say it got us into this right like we vote for our favorite person and

49:08
they're gonna save the day and you know we made that decision as a people and it turns out oh they're not as great as we

49:15
thought they were when we voted them in right so even us as the people in trying to um

49:21
normalize it across all types of people like we try and do in America right

49:26
where everyone gets to vote so you kind of have this among you know uh

49:32
I'm not going to think of the vocabulary word but I'm sure Jeff has it to say where it kind of all just comes together

49:37
and you kind of come up with you know have legislators who represent all types and kinds or whatever even that is

49:43
faulty to the degree that you can see where our country is diverged from the original intentions and and you can see

49:49
a lot of corruption stuff yeah pure pure democracy is just

49:54
government by mob rule because in a pure democracy whoever whichever demographic

50:01
comprises 50 plus one makes all the decisions

50:07
and if how do you gather 50 plus one do you do

50:13
it by force do you do it by coercion do you do it by eliminating the

50:19
competition that there are lots of unethical and and terrible ways to achieve the majority and once you have

50:25
it you'll never lose it and so if if we go by pure democracy eventually

50:32
some unsavory demographic whatever that might be will get power and then they

50:38
will never lose it and that's a problem if there is no accountability higher

50:44
than the government that's a real problem for the citizens yeah

50:50
so yeah ultimately again the problem is no matter what version you choose is

50:56
your highest priority it's problematic until you go all the way to the top right and for us it's very obvious what

51:04
that is and you know it's God and it's very clear but if you don't have that

51:10
how do you figure that out

51:15
like how do you appeal to a higher authority

51:21
that's very difficult so is your question sort of

51:28
someone who denies the existence of God how would we convince them that it's important to have a government

51:34
that is accountable to a higher power that's a great question that is a

51:39
question among so many of them right but that sure start with you know what I mean like

51:49
this is where your theology background my expansive theology I

51:57
it's okay you know yeah I don't know this is how you see it I I don't know but I think one of the one of the

52:04
important things to study is history um because

52:09
unless you learn from your previous mistakes you are destined to repeat them I forget who said that but it's it's one

52:15
of those maxims that is true and true and true and true over and over Where We Are

52:23
we lose so much knowledge that we could have accumulated if we refuse to study

52:29
history and we can see how when the government rose

52:35
up and said there is no God we are the highest Authority we determine not not

52:41
just what is legal and illegal but what is right and what is wrong sure what is moral right morality

52:48
we we have seen millions of people be murdered not by

52:54
foreign invading armies but by their own governments and innocent civilians not soldiers were

53:02
sacrificed on this ideology we saw it in the

53:07
the expansion of Communism throughout the Soviet Union and in other countries we see it in more modern dictatorships

53:14
we saw it you know back in the Middle Ages when monarchs ruled with an Iron

53:19
Fist and said I'm not accountable to God and I'm going to essentially eliminate everyone who doesn't worship me

53:26
essentially uh we can we can see the pattern repeat

53:31
itself over and over and over again but only if we study history sure

53:37
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