Sarah shares her personal experience with abortion and how her views on the issue have evolved over time. She discusses the challenges of being pro-choice and pro-life and argues that a middle ground needs to be explored. She also talks about the importance of faith in her journey and how it has helped her to change her mind about abortion. Listen to this thought-provoking discussion on this extremely polarizing subject, and check back next week for Part 2.
Show Notes
- Part 2 of this episode
- Where you can find Sarah:
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sapar800
- Instagram: https://instagram.com/__sarah.hall__
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/sarah_hall98713
- Tiktok: http://www.tiktok.com/@s.parkk
Transcript
Mark:
Well, good morning, Sarah.
Sarah:
Good morning.
Mark:
Yes. Just wanted to allow you a moment to introduce yourself to the degree that you would like to at this point, kind of in the process of how I see it as one of our guests. And I just want to recognize that we really appreciate your willingness to be a part of us. This is a topic that would say justin and I felt was way above our pay grade in the process of being able to discuss abortion. And that kind of dynamic with two guys just didn’t seem right. So we really appreciate your willingness to share part of your story with us, our listeners, that kind of thing. And from that, I’d just like you to kind of introduce yourself as you would like.
Sarah:
Yeah, I appreciate you guys having me. My name is Sarah and I’ve had my fair share of issues revolving around this. I’ve had an abortion and I’ve went through stages of being extremely pro choice and gradually growing in my faith, leaning more to the other side, but also still being pro choice. And I also don’t really like those terms. I think as soon as you say that you’re pro choice or pro life, people put you in a box.
Mark:
Sure.
Sarah:
And I think my views are outside of those box. And if we’re going to make any type of progress as a country or in this planet with it that we have to start thinking outside of the box with it that we can’t stay in pro choice or pro life because it’s just very narrow thinking when you do that and everything has to come and compromise.
Justin:
Yeah, sure. We talk a lot about that here. Obviously, one of the premises of the podcast is that we try to tackle things that are polarizing, like polar opposite ideologies. Right. And I mean, you just nail them, right. Pro choice and pro life is essentially battle lines. It’s red versus blue. It’s good guys versus bad guys, depending on which side you’re on. It’s extremely polarized. That’s always been our desire is to do what you’re saying, which is talk about where is that middle ground? Or where do we fall on these things? And is there an opportunity to have a conversation with someone who’s not like me and hear that perspective in a way that’s respectful? And not just respectful, but within a desire to actually learn something, with a desire to actually listen, with a desire to learn. Now we talk a lot about being open minded and so being able to hear what someone has to say and letting it change my mind. We even talked about one of the episodes was changing our minds and how there’s this fear of, well, if I change my mind, then I no longer have integrity or I’m a coward, I can’t stick to my guns kind of thing. And I think it’s the opposite. Right. I think integrity is saying I need to align what I believe with the truth. And if I can get more truth, then I want to adjust my beliefs. And changing my mind is the opposite of being cowardly and it’s brave. Anyway, all that to say, this conversation is a perfect opportunity to talk about something like that, especially, like you said, where it comes to those two sides and that somewhere in the middle is some truth, right?
Sarah:
Yeah.
Justin:
Is that kind of?
Sarah:
Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s a bigger reason. I listen to your gal’s podcast a lot and I really respect you both as humans and as people, and as people, as faith. And I love your podcast. You have different perspectives than what I do, and a lot of times I have the same perspectives and it takes a different approach than a lot of the other podcasts out there where they don’t necessarily show both sides or speak what they actually think. And I really appreciate that.
Justin:
Thank you. That’s awesome. It’d be really fun to just go through everyone you disagree with and just like yeah.
Mark:
But I am thinking about it from your journey specifically and what about your journey led to the transition you described? Do you follow me? You described it very well in that continuum dynamic, and yet I’m also interested to hear those thoughts of yours that are what you would consider outside the box. And can you speak to that transition, what that looked like for you specifically?
Sarah:
Yeah, I think in general, this topic is just extremely hard because it doesn’t touch us politically or spiritually or morally. It touches all of that. It touches who we are as a person and to a lot of people, physically and mentally, which is why it’s such a hard topic and how people have such strong opinions. And it’s not easy to try to think of a different way because it does affect us so deeply. And a lot of my changes came with spiritually and a lot of my opinions originally came politically. Growing up, I have very liberal sided family, but extended family also has very conservative family. So that was one of those big topics that we didn’t talk about, and if we did, it turned into an argument. And everyone in my family likes to be right and who doesn’t like to be right?
Justin:
Right?
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
They sound like my family.
Sarah:
Yeah, a lot of families are like that.
Mark:
Yes, indeed.
Sarah:
But my journey spiritually has really come from within. It didn’t start and not until really kind of recently where my views on this shifted some. And a lot of the things I still politically and like mentally, I still think that women should have the right to choose, but also spiritually. I recognize that it is a life, that it’s not an easy decision to make, that it’s a decision that should not be taken lightly by any means, and that it’s a decision that will change your life and lives around you and that it should deeply be considered before any decisions are made. But I also recognize that it is a sin. But if we’re taking one sin away without the replacement of faith, then the sin is just changed.
Mark:
Help me understand that, please.
Sarah:
Okay, so let’s say somebody doesn’t get an abortion, okay? The rates in pregnant women getting abused are higher, rates in women that are murdered higher, and abuse of children that are not aborted. And I’m not saying that that’s any means a reason to get an abortion. There are other options as well. But if hearts aren’t changed, the sin just develops into a different sense.
Mark:
Okay?
Sarah:
And for me, my faith journey is the only thing that’s ever changed my mind. Not listening to a podcast, not listening to people around me or other opinions. Because like what you said earlier, it’s so easy to get stuck in our own feelings and our own thoughts and our own emotions and it’s hard to branch out. And I think the only thing that can really change you from within and your own thought process is our faith and is our spirituality. And I think that is started with love and not someone screaming at you, telling you’re wrong.
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
Absolutely.
Mark:
So for you, if I’m hearing you correctly, part of that decision making process was a desire not to go forward with the pregnancy in such a way that would put you or that child potentially at risk in an abusive situation. Is that what I’m hearing from you personally? Or I guess that’s where I’m hearing what you’re saying as far as replacing one sin with another. And that’s what I guess where I’m trying to and help me understand that, if you can, please.
Sarah:
Yeah. A situation that I was in was not healthy. I did sex work for a little while in my past and that’s where this had started. And it’s a decision that I don’t regret, but I’m still extremely hurt by it and I will carry that the rest of my life. But I also recognize that I was not in the place to have a baby. I was not in the place to carry a child, much less have a healthy child. I was very much in my addiction. I was around people that I shouldn’t have been around and doing things that I shouldn’t have been doing. And I can’t say if God would have blessed me and had a healthy child or if I would have not even made it to terms. I don’t know. I will never know that. But I do know that it happened for a reason. And I hate to say that, because it is such a heavy thing to say that this happened for a reason, but I think it gives me an opportunity to talk about it and talk about my experience and just how painful that can be and that it’s not something that people just think about as a different type of birth control, because it’s not. It’s not something that somebody wants to do or that they aspire to do or really want that to be an option for themselves. But sometimes it gets to the point where that’s all that they can think to do.
Mark:
And I appreciate what you’re sharing in that process. Because here again, I’m speaking way above my pay grade. But being able to recognize too, I think there is so much of it that can come from that perspective of looking from the outside in and saying, well, there’s this option, there’s this option. There’s this option. There’s this option. And not necessarily being in the box, shall we say, to be able to say, okay, this is where I’m at. This is my circumstances, and I want you to know that I hear that wrestling you did as you’re speaking, to be able to say, yeah, this was what seemed like a no win situation, and you made the choices you made out of that. And I believe is that part of where that transformation from maybe a more pro choice to less pro choice dynamic came from? Or is that part of the passion that you have to maybe create other options to look at things differently, that kind of thing? Does that make sense?
Sarah:
Yeah, for sure. I think a lot of it is just wanting to provide better options out there. And like, yes, adoption is an option and there are other options out there, but I wouldn’t consider those valid or good options either.
Mark:
Okay?
Sarah:
Adoption is a great thing when you can find a good family. But when that child ends up in an orphanage or in our foster care system, which is not great system and I think those are things that if we’re saying that somebody has to have their child, that they don’t have an option, they get pregnant, they have to have it, then we should offer them valid and good alternatives. And not just saying this is your option, but that’s an awful option too. I don’t see any good options for somebody that’s in that situation. I think they’re all hurtful and they’re all painful, and that’s a responsibility of our country and of the people that are in charge.
Mark:
Yeah. So if I may, looking back for you at that time, can you think of what would be a good option at that point? In other words, if someone had come to you with, we can offer this circumstance, what would have made that a viable or good option for you at that point? As we think about what we’d like to see, do you have something in mind? I’m just curious.
Sarah:
I think mental health was a big one. I was very much in my addiction and I was not in a place mentally or physically to care for myself, much less anybody else. And if I would have had some good mental health guidance in general and had somebody to help me get sober and show me a different way of life than what I had ever thought. And I didn’t find that until I found God. But we have to bring people to God, and I don’t think that happens by standing outside of an abortion clinic telling people they’re going to go to hell.
Justin:
You don’t think, don’t know. Yeah, that’s how he’s perplexed me a little bit. The other thing I wanted to stop and say, too, is I really do recognize kind of the bravery to talk about this.
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
Because I think Mark and I can kind of see in you some emotion that maybe the listeners can’t necessarily perceive. And I think that kind of speaks to what you’re saying about how all encompassing it is in your being to make that decision. And, yeah, I’m able to hear what you’re saying and put myself in that situation and think this seems dire, impossible, and that’s the only option. And I can understand that. I really can. You know how Mark and I feel about it, but at the same time, I can definitely understand it. Right. And I think that’s half, half the battle is people who haven’t experienced that. How do they feel what you’re feeling? How do they get what you get? How do they understand the breadth and depth of the struggle that you were in, right. In terms of addiction, in terms of the work that you were doing, in terms of just all those factors that you’re just, like, you don’t understand. There’s no way a human being can come up this way in me kind of thing. I feel like that’s the conversation for me, that this is so crucial to have to help understand how difficult of a decision it is. And then the other thing is, once that decision is made, it’s made the rest of your life. So you’ll carry that, like you said, and it’ll always be hard, I think is what you said. And that’s true too. And of course, as believers in Jesus Christ and what he did for us on the cross, we can accept that grace. We can accept that he covers it all. And that includes abortion, that includes sexual sin that I’ve struggled with my past. That includes all of it. Right?
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
And yet his grace removes the penalty of sin, but it doesn’t always remove the consequences. Right. And I do believe one of those consequences of sin often is lasting shame. Right. Is this kind of like, or whatever you would call it, that you feel the struggle of it? Right. So I just wanted to stop and recognize the difficulty that this is and also just be again, just thank you for coming and sharing your side of the story and listening or talking to two guys above their pay grade about a subject that we have to tread lightly on because number one. We cannot have a baby. I know a little bit about you, Sarah, and we’ve known each other for a while, and I can imagine just the frustration with middle aged white men making decisions about women’s bodies. Right. Like, I totally get that. And I can understand how it would become that itself is a polarizing thing. Right. Like, people that look like that and are on that other side of the equation are making decisions for people who look like this and are on this side of the equation and how ridiculous that might feel or is. Right. So all that being said, I think how difficult is it for you? I can’t imagine how difficult it is to step kind of mentally out of the situation and look back on it and say, here’s how I could have done it or should have done it or whatever. And you said that you don’t have regrets on it. But I’m curious, do you have those thoughts in your mind as far as, like, if I could have zoomed all the way out and I wasn’t Sarah, I was Sarah up here, like, looking down on Sarah. Would you have advice for yourself? Would you have a different perspective or would you say, you’re doing the right thing, Sarah, carry on and it’ll all work out. I’d be curious what your thoughts are on that, if you’re willing to share that.
Sarah:
Yeah, I very much feel like I am the other Sarah looking at the other Sarah, because I’m not the person I was when I made that decision. And if I could say anything to that person today, it would be I know that you’re in the situation that you are, that this feels like an impossible situation that you can’t get out of, but here’s God, here’s love, here’s people that love you. And I had people that love me back then, too, but they didn’t guide me towards grace. And that’s what I needed, that’s what I’ve always needed and I still need that. Absolutely. And celebrate Recovery has done a lot of that for me, of just bringing me to God. And I think a lot of this journey for me is learning how to love myself, learning how to love my past and the things that I have done, even as painful as those things were. But to not take that as that’s who I am. And that awesome thing about being human is that we can change that. We can wake up any day and say, all right, I don’t want to be this, so let’s change this. And it might take some work, it might take some effort and some time and some determination and persistence, but we can get there no matter what. And I wish I could tell that.
Justin:
Girl there, yeah, that’s good stuff.
Mark:
No doubt. And I was thinking about that from that what began that change for you, even from as you share that initial mental health component that seemed to be the most difficult. And basically, I’ll call it the foundation, if you will, of the addiction and decision making process. Help me understand what began that transition for you. What promoted that change?
Sarah:
The people around me. A lot of the times, people in addiction I’m not speaking for everyone, but they feel very alone. I know I did. You could be surrounded with people in a room and feel like you’re the only one in there. And the shift from feeling like I was the only one in there to realizing, hey, other people have these same struggles and these same problems, and they have sympathy for themselves. So why can I have sympathy for myself? Why do I have to beat myself up all the time and say that I’m the worst person ever? Which is just a cycle that’s keeping me back in that mess and realizing that I could break that chain and that cycle of hurting myself ultimately and hurting the people that loved me. And those are things that nobody wants to do.
Mark:
Yeah. So the people around you and then what promoted that change for you? In other words, that I need more people or different people, or that process for you? I mean, was that one individual that made that initial difference, or help me understand that for you personally?
Sarah:
It was a couple of people.
Mark:
Okay.
Sarah:
In celebrate recovery. Absolutely. But a big part of it was my journey with God, figuring out who he is, who I am in Him and what he says in His Word, and just realizing that there was so much more than just me. I think a lot of times I get so focused on me and what I can do and what I can’t do, and realizing that there is so much more to this world and beyond this world that I can’t even comprehend, just made me realize how small I was and everything, but also how big. I can be sure, but only with God.
Mark:
Yeah, go ahead.
Justin:
Yeah, I almost see what you’re asking, Mark, essentially is like, well, maybe you can correct me if I’m whatever, but I’m interested, basically. But essentially, what are the things that cause maybe those pinpoint moments that you look at that started to cause a shift in perspective away from some of the dysfunction that you were living in? You mentioned people, you mentioned God. I guess it’d be curious for the listeners sake. Is it A you can point to a few key moments as an opportunity for hope for others to say, these are the kinds of things that can change a life, or is it B, which is equally as valid and amazing to say, I don’t know. God just showed up and things started changing and my mind started being transformed by Him, because that’s equally valid. And I heard many stories of that as well. There’s no reason I started listening to that person. There’s no reason I went back to church. I can’t tell you why. It’s not like someone told me to go to church. It’s okay. Anyway, I guess I’d like to hear kind of your perspective on that. Right.
Sarah:
I would say between option A and B mix of both, for sure. In those situations throughout my life, that’s where God showed up in those little turning points. And that was the first time I came to Cr and continued to come back to Cr. And I had a situation where I felt like a lot of people in Cr, which was my own fault 100%. I didn’t feel extremely welcomed, and it was all on me. It was nothing they did. It was my decisions that led me there. But through that, God just kept showing up, and he kept showing me the change and the shifts, and he’ll put little things in our lives that show us where we can be and who we can be. And it’s most likely not who we are today.
Mark:
Sure.
Sarah:
But he helps us get there.
Justin:
When you say God showed up, do you have any examples of that is, like, your eyes were open to it a possibility, or like you said, he showed you who you can be, and it’s probably not who you are today. Do you have an example of that? Because I’m really curious. From a practical perspective, what does that look like in your life or anyone’s, really. But as far as how it played out in your life, those specifics?
Sarah:
Yeah. A huge, pivotal moment for me, which was fairly recently and I talked about this when I got baptized, was I was going through a really rough moment, and I was completely paralyzed. I sat on my couch for days. I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t know where to go, who to talk to. I felt alone and defeated. And in that moment, I just put on YouTube on my TV and had sermons playing over and over, and I wasn’t really listening to them. I just had them playing. And there was a moment where I was reading some article on my phone, and every other word that I was reading on my phone, the sermon on my TV was saying it, and it got my attention. I put my phone down and I listened to the sermon, and it was all about grace. And everything that I needed in that moment was that sermon. And I fully believed that that was God, that he knew that I needed what that sermon had to say to me, because they had been playing for hours and I hadn’t listened to them. They were just on. But it just happened to be that one that I needed to hear that he brought my attention to.
Justin:
That’s very cool. Yeah. So that’s kind of like you said, a both end, right? Like A and B, in the sense of one of the things that you did, which this would be a question, but I assume is different than before, which is having sermons playing when you’re out of hope. Right. That probably wasn’t a thing a few years ago.
Sarah:
Oh, yeah, okay.
Justin:
So that’s a little bit of a of things that you’re doing different. And then the b is God saying, hey, by the way, I’m right here, listen up, listen to this guy because I’m speaking to you. I think that’s kind of how it works often. Right. It’s like those faith steps. We take that one step and then he pulls us the rest of the way over. But often he does expect that faith step. I mean, that’s what Hebrews Eleven talks about by faith. And he goes through all these stories. Yeah, that’s really cool. You’re going to say something?
Mark:
Oh, no, I was listening for the question.
Justin:
No, I didn’t have a question. No, I just was commenting on it. But yeah. Any other occasions like that where you see, I guess, the writing on the wall, that analogy, right, where you see God’s hand or vice versa. Like I said, what are some specific things that you used to do it this way and you said, that’s insanity, I don’t want to keep doing that, I’m going to try this thing. And then you saw the benefits of it by that faith step. Right. There are other examples of that.
Sarah:
Yeah. So much is just changing my core person of who I thought I was. And something that I think is really important is just because you think that you are something doesn’t mean you are something. That the only truth is what’s in the Bible and what he says that we are. And he says that we’re a masterpiece, that we’re forgiven, that we’re everything to Him if we make Him everything to us. It’s a give and take and he’ll always be here for us, but he blesses those that give to Him and to highlight Him for sure. And I think so much of my journey is just trying to figure out how I can do that in the best way that he’s given me to be able to. He’s given us all gifts and all of us blessings, and it’s up to us to use those in the best way that we can. And I think you guys are doing that by doing this podcast. You’re both given really great minds, and you have this opportunity to be able to use these technology, and you’re using your gifts. And not everyone does that because they don’t take the time to reflect on what their gifts are and who they are and who they are in Christ and how they can glorify him using what they’re given. It’s a hard process to go through and it comes with a lot of pain as well as recognizing your flaws and how to fix those flaws. And that’s very much the process that we will always be in, we will always find things that we have to work through. And that’s because sin will always be a part of this world.
Mark:
And I’m thinking about as you desire to use those gifts and I’m seeing your preparation in your notebook there, Voice. Is there anything else from your perspective you’d like to be able to share with this moment?
Justin:
Take your time. We’re going to play the Jeopardy theme song.
Mark:
There is no pressure. But I hear that passion in you, if you will, that everybody has a gift, and it’s going to take effort to kind of mind that out to a certain degree and being able to recognize, yes, God gives us gifts, and he gives us pain, and he allows us he even offers us the opportunity to use that in ways that glorify him and that kind of thing. And that’s where I wanted to make sure that if you had something you wanted to share, we’d love to hear it.
Sarah:
Yeah, I think that’s a good segue to actually what I have written here. And it’s kind of a bold statement, so hang on with me. But abortion is sin. I think that’s something that we can all agree on here. And recognizing that something is sin and giving it the attention that this world gives abortion is highlighting sin. And we’re told to highlight God, to praise God and not to praise the sin. And when we’re giving all of our attention onto the sin, we’re taking it away from God. And this is where the really boldness comes to it. But when we’re focusing all of our sin or all of our attention on sin, then ultimately we’re focusing all of our attention on the enemy and we’re taking that away from God, which is exactly what Satan wants to do. He wants us to focus on the sin and away from God. And if he can use God’s people to do that, then he’s a win win.
Justin:
Yeah. And it’s not just this area where we see that, right, for sure.
Mark:
And I think it’s interesting because earlier you kind of were what I was hearing was that aspect of for me, you were talking about that in that isolation. And I think so often when we are in the midst of sin, it is about me and you know, from me, it’s hard to glorify thee or him, you know, because it I, I can become so internally focused. And I appreciate what you’re sharing in that dynamic of abortion being sin. And yet I recognize, yeah, that’s going to make people kind of bristle just a little bit. And yet that’s something that you’ve come to the recognition of all on your own. And you’ve had to do that wrestling with the fact that I sinned and yet where sin abounds, grace abounds much more. And that’s what you’re experiencing as well in that process, is that kind of what I’m hearing, yeah.
Justin:
I’m sorry. Were you? No, go ahead.
Mark:
Okay. That’s the part that I definitely appreciate sharing. And if I may, I’m still very curious kind of from my own mental health perspective. I am still curious on the things that you’d like to see or that might have made a difference for you in that process. Because it is that desire, I think, to offer hope for people in circumstances that seem or feel very hopeless in that moment, like there is no other alternative. And is there other aspects that you’d like to share based on your transition? What would be something because I guess I’m looking at it in a sense of how can we help other people in the midst of abortion specifically? Granted, we can talk about sin in a general, but I’m curious and I guess I’m desiring to offer hope and help for other people who might be in a similar circumstance that you faced yourself.
Sarah:
Yeah, I think everything for me just goes back to love of yourself, love from other people. And fundamentally things just have to change in general. That’s not something that we could do here in this room. It’s going to take a lot to get to the place where I feel like we need to be politically and like as a society. But something like tangible that we could do is just loving one another acceptance, not shaming people for their decisions or for even just considering it. If someone comes up to you and says, hey, I’m considering this situation, don’t just go straight to don’t do it. Take the second to say why do you think you need to do this? What could I help in your situation? And there may not be anything you could do because sometimes people don’t have these big reasons and they just don’t want to be a mother. And I think that’s okay too. There are other options if you don’t want to be a mother as well, but not shaming somebody because they don’t want to be a mother. And just offering love and support I think is ultimately the only thing that we can do. And just recognizing that it is a hard decision, that it’s painful to go through it, to even consider it, especially to consider it and then to not go through it, to just realize that hey, this might have happened and I decided to not do that. And that can be also very painful. I think the biggest thing we can do for others is just to offer that support.
Justin:
Yeah, I think that last little bit you pointed out something that kind of stands out a lot to me, which is if you’re a person in a place where that’s a consideration, you’re already in a very difficult place. And no matter what decision you make, it will impact you the rest of your life one way or another. Whether you deal with wondering if it’s the right decision, deal with regrets, deal with shame from others, whatever, by going forward or you don’t and you choose to have the baby, well, of course you’ll deal with that the rest of your life, whether, again, if it’s adoption and wondering, should I have kept it? Maybe you do keep it now. You have a child that’s going to be with you rest of your life. And I’m sure you’ve heard many stories. I’ve heard many stories of like, they don’t regret it, right? Like, they have their little baby there, their child is a teenager, and they’re like, this wouldn’t be the case, whatever, but no matter how you go about it, like, that will came out of a traumatic time in someone’s life. And so, like, I think how do you give like, stock answers to to people in that situation? I think it’s very difficult to do that. Well, Jesus says, the Bible says, or you have options and here’s what they are. And it’s like all of those things I don’t think gets to the heart of the matter, which is this is someone in some significant traumatic circumstance to be in a place of making that decision. Now, that’s not always the case. I think sometimes there’s probably some entitlement or just a way of doing life that just is my choice and this is just another moment in the day and it’s no different or whatever. I don’t think I’m speaking to that. I think probably we would all agree if that’s just your way of life is just like you have an abortion every other day because that’s your method of childbirth control or whatever. And that’s just how I guess I would call it self centered of a life that you live, that it’s like I get to do whatever I want. It doesn’t impact you to that level. That’s a different conversation. And I feel like again, I guess I shouldn’t speak for you, Sarah, but I feel like that’s an obvious not good way of being right. But yeah, when it comes down to how difficult of a decision that is, I can see why love is the most important thing, because what else can rescue you from that traumatic place that you’re in other than just like that healing balm of love and grace for your place that you’re in? What do you think about that, Mark?
Mark:
Well, I was thinking about it in the midst of Sarah’s story, and I think I like what you’re sharing in that process of how support makes such a big difference. And I recognize where you’re coming from in that context of without support, it’s difficult to make. I’ll call them healthy choices, you follow me? So to be able to recognize when a person isn’t in a healthy place, they’re going to make unhealthy choices, you follow me? It doesn’t matter whether we’re talking about abortion or addiction, and I think all of our family systems come into play there as far as what healthy looks like, based on my family. Based on your family. And we’re right. And I was thinking about it in that context, to be able to and it still comes back to what a person does makes perfect sense based on what they’ve experienced or where they come from. You follow me, and I think if I haven’t experienced what someone else has, it’s easy for me to look in from the outside and say, that was wrong, and you should have done this differently because I had all these other supports for me. So to be able to look back and be able to say, no, that makes perfect sense, and still being able to recognize and I think that’s the hope is the being able to recognize, okay, yeah, there’s grace for that. And no matter where someone’s at, based on kind of your testimony, if I may, you’re able to recognize yeah, grace, support, love. That made the difference for me even after the decision was made. And I think that’s where, if anything, the motivation for me is, okay, how do we develop that support for people before they get to that point? How do we develop these supports for adolescents? I’m not saying that would have made all the difference for you, but being able to recognize yeah, people have their own personal journey, but if there’s a way we can be creating more support, grace filled support early on, that basically says, okay, these people love and accept me. And I think you bring up a great point in that context. I don’t know, as if the church has always done a great job of that, because we can tend to be so polarized, and we don’t always offer that early on support. And I’m even just think about it.
Justin:
We like people who are repentant. We’ll help you when you’re repentant. Right. I think that’s an unfortunate situation in the church. Right?
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
Because you said we don’t always help early on, and it made me think, yeah, you’re right. We do offer a lot of help. If you come in the church repentant and kind of bowed low, it’s like, oh, well, let’s help you get back up on your feet, or whatever. And that’s a good thing. I’m glad there’s at least that. But I don’t know. You just made me realize that sometimes we’re not so good at having grace and being gracious and loving to those who are not in a place of saying, maybe I’m wrong. Right?
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
Maybe this way of thinking is wrong. Instead, they’re in a place of no, my way of thinking is right, and if you try and step in front of me, you’re wrong, and that kind of thing. And then we’re like sinner and we back off. I think that’s probably normal human behavior. And as a church, we are still normal humans when our flesh is in charge. And that is the daily battle that Paul talks about. Romans days like it’s a battle against flesh in the Spirit. And every day we’re meant to do that. And hopefully on the good days, the Spirit’s winning. And when the Spirit’s winning, things look better. We make choices that don’t make sense as a human in their flesh, right. But we aren’t always winning, right? And so that’s why the church looks like hypocrisy a lot of times to those on the outside. It’s like, well, yeah, you know why? Because the church is full of hypocrites. Because we’re humans, and humans are hypocritical. And the church isn’t the only place where hypocrites live. Right. But we hold them to a higher standard, as we should. So, yeah, it’s just kind of this messy situation. That being said, I also don’t want to sit here on this podcast and be like, yeah, there’s no good Christian organizations offering help and love and support. And if we would have done our homework, we would offer that here. Because I guarantee you there are amazing organizations right out there. But knowing about them and at the time that you’re struggling and having that, this is a big world, right? So that organization might be available. But knowing about it, having someone reach in and say, hey, I have this awesome organization, the chances are not great, considering all the avenues for abortion in this world, for them to be in every one of those and offering that grace and love at just the right time in someone’s most traumatic experience, I mean, that’s asking a lot, right?
Mark:
And I’ll still bring it back. And granted, when I’m saying church, I’m tending to think of the building so often. And I think it comes back to what you shared earlier, Sarah, is that ability that each and every one of us have to have a ministry to take the gifts that we’ve been given and to be able to meet people where they’re at. And it’s about meeting them in that moment with grace and love and not being even concerned about getting them into a building. It’s about this is a personal relationship for me, and I desire to share that with you in a grace filled way that doesn’t make it seem as if I have it figured out, but yet I’ve got some things that have worked for me, and I’d like to be able to offer that to you in this moment. And I’d like to walk with you, if you don’t mind, in that process of help. And I think that is kind of what you were sharing already early on, is like, that’s what it needs to be about. And I think so often that part because in your story, as you shared sometimes, you mentioned when I went, I didn’t necessarily feel welcome, and you were willing to take responsibility for that. That that was on you. And, yeah, I’m also willing to recognize sometimes I don’t think it’s all on you. You follow me and I give you credit that you were even there, because that’s a bold and brave thing to do when you’re in that transition. And I think having people who are able to say, yeah, come with me, and I have these things that have helped me relationship with Jesus, helps me, these other people who I’m able to not necessarily well, it normalizes my situation that we’re all messed up. It’s just these people are dealing with this area of messed up. These people are dealing with this area. And when I have somebody who’s basically gone outside of those walls and did what Jesus did, from my perspective, then we’re able to build that support out there and then offer these other tools in addition.