0:00
[Music] um before you ask uh it is dumber fair

0:09
enough fair enough I was going to say Mark and I are dads yeah so we're going

0:17
to try really hard not to do our dad jokes but that was one we're like he's heard every single far from the first

0:25
exactly that's what we realize it's like but and then at that point if it's not original why bother right well cuz we're

0:32
dads that's why bother yeah but even then you think your joke is original you

0:37
know that's the that's yeah you think you're the only one that's ever thought of it that way before every every dad is

0:44
the first dad to pun that hard that's right yeah [Music]

0:54
yeah welcome to how I see it with me Mark Pratt and Sternberg this is a

1:01
podcast that works to countercultural polarization through thoughtful

1:07
[Music] conversations so again thank you for being on here it is Elias right it is

1:16
and dummer yes Elias Dum unfortunately and unfortunately yeah well I mean it

1:21
makes for a lot of opportunities for jokes when you introduce yourself right that's right yeah no one forgets my last

1:28
name that's for sure that's right so what what is the most redundant right joke you hear that you

1:35
just kind of say ahha that's funny where your name is concerned what's the most redundant one well the problem is that

1:43
my parents I often go by Eli okay my called me Eli forever but apparently I

1:50
God bless them they were not bright enough to notice that they added is to my first name okay my name in and of

1:58
itself El like is done then what it at all there's no yeah you don't even need

2:05
you don't even need a punchline it is the punchline there you go do you have siblings I I do I have two brothers and

2:13
an adopted sister are they older you have old no I'm the oldest so okay so

2:18
they weren't saying you were dumber than one of your other siblings at least no no no no I was well and and it's funny

2:26
like I used to always joke that people would say did you get made fun of a lot in school and I was like yes once per

2:32
year and was was we grew up in a rough and tumble part of town so you know how

2:38
it goes but um that's not really my actual way of doing life but it's it's a decent quip but no the yeah know people

2:45
jump with the or all the things I mean I get I've had it all but the name itself

2:51
just serves it on a silver platter go that is pretty great I I admit I didn't

2:56
think of that or that that's pretty great Eli is yeah I hadn't thought of it that perspective but yeah well if people

3:03
don't know you go by Eli I guess they don't think about it but you know when you're introduces Eli as a kid you go oh

3:10
shoot well of course on this end we spent a lot of time saying okay how do we get to this point to clarify so I

3:16
appreciate you clarifying that right off the bat because I'm sure you've heard it a hundred times it's like yes it is

3:22
dumber just for the clarification but yes yeah well and my family's very

3:28
English too so you start like English Irish Scotch you start calling us D and it's a whole there's war yeah that's

3:36
[Music] true it is exactly what it is

3:42
yeah that's funny I was having a conversation with a UK publication not

3:48
too long ago which was pretty funny because Sarah Ferguson if you remember the the Weight Watchers commercials and

3:54
all of that she's from Dumber England oh wow oh wow this whole this whole thing

4:00
those of us with this ridiculous name are apparently quite proud of the Weight Watchers

4:05
princess the whole thing that's another claim to fame yeah there we go did you

4:11
know that prior is that prior to having my name know no no no no about Sarah

4:17
Ferguson and that whole thing or did you figure that out at some point I don't know when we were teenager something my

4:24
dad was like so it turns out Fergie is from and it was before the other Fergie came along that was it yeah neat not

4:31
quite yeah it's not quite as of a claim to fame of the the new Fergie I mean that no no it'd be much cooler if that

4:39
summer England alas all right well speaking of cool I'd love to talk about your new album and

4:46
just a few things about it um sure first of all it's really cool that you kind of

4:51
you raised the money I mean you I think you produced it you did everything right I mean to kind of

4:58
yeah well actually less so than on my first solo record so City Harmon was of

5:03
course like signed to record label and we did self-produced the the EP with

5:09
Manifesto and everything um through a through a barter deal which is a whole story and then um and then the rest were

5:16
all record label records and then uh my deal finished so typically when you're

5:22
signed to a record label you either get dropped you finish your deal or you never finish your deal and you're in

5:27
there for life we were we had the luck of having been able to finish our deal

5:33
couple records were cped and I was able to go Indie without it being terribly dramatic so when the band retired I went

5:40
Indie and that was it I mean I've and so we uh did kind of a crowdfunding

5:45
campaign for both volume 1 and volume two yeah um but volume two was whereas

5:50
volume one was a lot more like scratching all the itches that I never got to scratch in a

5:56
band uh volume two was a little more like okay I'm a little more comfortable with what I want to do now and a big

6:02
part of that was working with friends so I did my co-produce with Brent Milligan who's a

6:08
legend he played base on Jesus Freak and he like produced David Crowder Band and

6:15
Toren Wells and colony house and all these rad projects um and then there's a lot of like collaborations on this

6:21
record as well so it's very communal even though I kind of I did have a

6:27
vision for it and a sense of what I wanted to do and played a heavy hand and all of it it still very much like doing

6:33
cool things with my friends you know I yeah I was gonna ask you about that because you know a lot of songs have you know by lines and uh different artists

6:41
and I also noticed uh well JJ heler she I think was in Manifesto right in that

6:46
video that's holy wedding day so she did yeah sorry not no it's great she did a

6:51
version of holy wedding day with us years ago we met years and years ago then when they moved to Nashville we

6:58
like helped the move in and hung out so we kind of like family friends I get together particularly with her husband

7:04
Dave you know pretty regularly and and so yeah we love them and so it's just

7:09
one of those things where it's like hey we need to do a thing let's call up propels and thankfully wasn't much more

7:16
complicated than that we just sorted out the details and nice made music it was fun yeah that's really cool yeah I

7:24
really liked seeing all the different artists you had on there and I think you even had your son on at one point right didn't he he read a

7:31
scripture No my kids refused oh wow yeah that is a voice over from

7:38
Fiverr it is my kids full-blown said no I tried

7:43
they were oh wow they didn't want to be part of that friends group huh no I mean

7:49
they're you know we we love each other no no I hear you but but yeah no my kids did not want to be on a record that I'm

7:55
sorry I out I'm sorry I outed them that okay my my daughter actually sang in a couple

8:02
things on the first record as a source but uh no they're they're they're all very talented and and awesome people but

8:09
they didn't they did not want to read Deuteronomy on my album there you go didn't want that pressure at that moment

8:17
no that's all right what ages are your kids so my youngest is six and my oldest

8:22
is 15 and we've got five so it's you know every year and a half to two years through there um so we're kind of pretty

8:29
got a good spread you know we got a kid who's got a full-time job and a kid who plays Roblox like it's his job so there

8:36
you go isn't it though kind of is I mean one day maybe so speaking of your kids

8:42
and that kind of thing and your your passion where where did that come from For You music or music and your family

8:51
you know growing up in your family you know that kind of thing as you shared a little bit you know you kind of grew up

8:56
in this construction world and so it's like you know there's automatically going to be this part of us that says

9:01
okay yeah music is fine but how you going to make a Livin type stuff you know that yeah yeah well so my family um

9:08
my dad's like a architectural engineer of sorts he does like infrared heating

9:13
stuff for big buildings sure but every Saturday he would be working on the house and that sort of thing I was

9:19
honestly never really part of it we my family life growing up was like you know I come from a broken home my parents

9:25
divorced and it got real complicated for a while um and so when my wife my wife

9:30
and I got married pretty young we had my aunt and uncle who had five kids and this great life they' lived in Africa

9:37
for years as missionaries they came back and and he was a contractor when he came back and so that was all pretty great um

9:44
for me like kind of home Renault stuff is really just recreational and a break the rest of my life but but you know I

9:51
think having a tight-knit family has been important to us from the GetGo honestly partly because my family wasn't

9:58
that I have a my brother my brother I have I have a brother who has autism and

10:04
uh you know I have my bit of mental health stuff in my family's history and

10:11
so it's just you know we're a couple Generations away from from family disasters let's put it that way so sure

10:17
so so I think for us it's been important to sort of as people who want to follow

10:23
Jesus and all we do try the best we can at least to to create a community unto

10:28
ourselves and have that be something good for the community and I don't know that we're nailing it but it's certainly

10:34
been important to us all along sure and I think a lot of ways that's what music is I mean that's you're you're creating

10:40
and that's it's been a good bonding tool for me and my kids my daughter sings my son plays drums and piano so cool it's

10:46
just been fun to connect that way so when this house is done yeah it it will include a recording

10:53
studio which they'll all be able to mess around in and I don't know I never had that so that's pretty wild

11:00
yeah that is so cool yeah so for you where did that when do you remember that

11:05
passion coming for you personally even before your own personal family you know your you and your wife kind of how do

11:11
how was that developed in as Jesus walked as you walked with Jesus how was that developed for you personally yeah I

11:18
mean I grew up in the church so I think it was more there was a a youth pastor

11:24
in my life who called us to kind of really see things as more than I suppose

11:29
cultural Christianity Canada was uh pretty post-christian my entire life

11:35
there was never a point in my life where going to church was a socially convenient normal thing to do so so I'm

11:44
from Urban Canada so you can imagine it's you know halfway to Europe and

11:50
uh there's there's quite a lot with that so the benefit of that is you grow up

11:56
going to church at least at the time you grow up going to church and for the most part the people who are darkening the

12:01
doors of that church mean to be there very little of the sort of go to

12:06
church because it's Sunday that's not a a thing sure so by by high school I was

12:12
I had started leading worship when I was 13 so music and Faith were always pretty closely connected for me and and to be

12:18
honest there was you know some uh my relationship with that youth pastor

12:24
became complicated over the years and we could talk about that there's actually a song on the record that

12:29
with citizens was Zach who of course was part of Mars Hill Seattle um so there

12:36
speaking podcast yeah podast yeah so we really connected over some pretty

12:42
similar experiences we had in that regard um but nevertheless you the good with the bad that guy you know created a

12:50
great community and a great group of uh a culture for calling each other into

12:56
living the way of Jesus and and knowing and being I mean it was the 9s and Toronto Airport was right around the

13:02
corner so you couldn't really avoid so much of what was happening in terms of

13:09
again with the good and the bad renewal and all of the things that was happening in the church in our area so it was it

13:15
was a really fascinating time growing up and I think it's kind of forever left an imprint on us no doubt yeah that's

13:23
fascinating yeah when you don't see church as a social opportunity yeah it

13:29
it definitely has a different Viewpoint for you growing up the way you did oh

13:34
totally and it's not that that doesn't at all of course it's just it's certainly not the norm so like having

13:41
having been to church in the Bible Belt in the last 10 years when we were in Nashville yeah um it is really really

13:47
different really really different that's that's kind of where I was coming from it's like it's got how what what did you

13:52
notice specifically in that era well no one ever if you meet somebody in Canada

13:58
no one says what church do you go to I he not that's not coming up you know to

14:04
the point where like it's and I've actually thought this not to get all weird about it but I've actually thought this sort of about the way we

14:11
participate in culture as Christians because like I there's interestingly in

14:16
Canada there's a bit more of like indifference almost rather rather than

14:22
animosity towards religion and spirituality and Christianity and so

14:28
it's it's a at least at like the the everyday person you meet in the street right it's not like it's not like

14:33
they're anti-christian they're just like oh cute yeah and that's of the that's the end of the conversation unless

14:39
something comes up or life gets involved you know which it often does but but I I

14:44
you know in in the Bible Belt there's a lot more of kind of a what church do you go to what denomination are you from

14:50
what your grandpa do yeah you know all that stuff that just isn't baked in so like you know there's nobody going to

14:58
church in in Canada to find their next real estate listing like that's not a

15:04
that's not a thing you know I mean maybe it is but not not with any substantial

15:09
quantity sure that is definitely a phenomenon in Nashville right you

15:14
know goes to church for the three months leading up to his election and right all you know yeah that's

15:22
fascinating I me you you talking about kind of some of the more I don't know cultural things and I feel like a big

15:29
part of this album has a lot to do with kind of some cultural shifts but also I

15:35
feel like they um and this could just be me reading into it reading myself into

15:41
the album sure well so I guess what I'm saying is what you want I think as an

15:46
artist is you want people to hear themselves in the album and like kind of

15:52
embrace it as if did you write that for me kind of thing right right um so I'm sure there's some of that going on but I

15:58
also like maybe it is what's happening on your end I don't know but for me a

16:03
big yeah a big part of like a shift over the years is just learning what's

16:10
important what is Meaningful what actually matters to God

16:17
versus doesn't um I think about watching like I went to a concert

16:25
um of of the City Harmonic was there's News Boys concert City Haron oh yeah so 10 years ago almost yes and watching you

16:33
guys do Manifesto it was amazing I mean it's certainly one of my top three

16:40
concert experiences I loved it I loved it just so you know I love it yeah and

16:48
uh the a few people from our church when including our worship leader we ended up doing Manifesto at church many times

16:54
after that thank you by the way oh man yeah yeah and uh my wife does the keys

17:00
and she Nails the part and uh yeah I wish she was here I'd have her play it for you and yeah we would indulge

17:07
ourselves and make you endure it like yeah people play this for me all the time uh anyway the point is watching

17:14
those YouTube videos remembering that experience and kind of hearing the lyrics of what you're saying like do we need another song like you know like

17:22
there's a progression it seems like in your faith of I thought What mattered was this and now I know what matters is

17:30
this th that's a progression that I've been going through and again maybe reading into it but I'm curious your

17:36
thoughts no so that's that's great so I'll I'll probably pop the bubble a

17:41
little bit and say that uh the City Harmonic was born from an ecumenical

17:47
missions movement the idea of being involved in

17:52
uh social good however you want however you want to construe that the idea of the church uh being predominantly about

18:01
the good of the city and and worshiping God through our entire lives

18:07
holistically that was that was part of our DNA the entire time so what I think I've wrestled with is

18:15
what role we play I mean there was certainly we were in our 20s when that late 20s but in our 20s when that band

18:21
kind of took off um and uh so there was a little bit of like Vigor and navity I

18:27
think potentially around um how much we as a band could accomplish in terms of

18:33
bringing churches together around the states to the point where we lost our shirts in 2015 on a tour designed to do

18:42
exactly that we went around and we organized pastoral round tables and we were hosting you know we were hosting uh

18:48
lutherans and Catholics and Pentecostals at the same thing and then trying to get them to take communion like idiots but

18:56
like not not total but we certainly tried to they don't call you dumber for

19:02
nothing right yeah it's funny we that was great that

19:07
was welld deserved too we lost a lot of money doing it and don't regret it in the slightest oh cool

19:14
so was that was sort of baked into what we were doing however um I think I've I've always had a lot of uh I I guess

19:23
meta level hope and I still do meta level hope in the church and and by that

19:28
I mean the global Christian Church doing Jesus well I think I think it's just

19:33
increasingly the case or increasingly apparent that the disconnect between

19:39
what we do as public Christianity and the doing of Faith as a worship leader as a guy who writes songs as a thinker

19:46
as a nerd that that Gap is widening not shrinking and I think that's that's

19:52
difficult and frustrating and difficult moan life because it's so disenchanting so I'm seeing so many people not

19:58
disenchanting in terms of my relationship to Jesus that's kind of what this record is about yeah but chanting and seeing so many people I

20:06
love and know so crushed by that Gap that they feel like the only option

20:12
they have is to completely turn off their brain or to completely

20:17
deconstruct and and I and I'm I'm kind of like that we need to stop that game

20:23
because like there are for for me the disentangling if you will

20:29
of a belief here or there that when you're in youth group you're told this is what the Bible teaches and then you

20:36
read a few church history books and you go hey wait that's that's like 80 years

20:42
old this this thing that you're telling me is a non-negotiable is a in the grand scheme

20:48
of Christian history a baby belief sure and and there there's so many of those

20:53
that you kind of and for us in the City Harmonic the simple truth is that all was happening 18 years ago so by the

21:00
time the City Harmonic was already a band we were already fish out of water in many of the circles that we were in

21:06
um as obsessed with Jesus as ever in my life at this point and then uh but but

21:13
always sort of figing hey how do we navigate this by being faithful in our everyday how do we navigate this by

21:19
loving people well and being kind and how do we our my first attempt with you

21:25
know our effort in this City Harmonic was maybe if we unite and clear that we can unite missionally around the person

21:31
of Jesus and and the story Message of Jesus not just in terms of saving Souls but in terms of saving neighborhoods if

21:38
we can do this well maybe that will and and I I you know prior to 2016 I think

21:44
there it was going we had a lot of confidence that that was the case and then by the time the band ended it was clear that things were getting very

21:50
divided and culture and that sort of thing and I think that's all escalated all of this to the point now I'm kind of

21:57
like hey you know what don't have to throw out the baby with the bath water yeah sure yeah I mean like you've got I

22:04
remain haunted and people argue about the interpretation of this but I remain haunted by Amos 5 I mean there's this

22:09
sense in which we have oh aren't we all haunted by Amos

22:16
5 away the noise of your F like away with all of these things but let jce

22:21
like this this kind of like sense of like hey you can do Church all you want but if Church do lead to

22:29
the bottom line of your neighborhood being you know a better place to live yeah yes yes you're wasting my time and

22:36
yours and this is you know the Lord speaking prophetically through your AIS yeah and so you you know you have True

22:42
Religion and James you've got all this stuff and so I think there is this the

22:47
business of doing Church um and something I've kind of tried to offset I mean I've been a Tent Maker the whole

22:53
time um and in that I I own a a marketing agency and a few small businesses in order for me to do music

23:01
and ministry as earnestly as I can you know I tried my best to take money off

23:08
the table because of my own personality not the role um and so I you know we're we're not rolling in it but we have a at

23:15
least were able to participate in this by conviction and that that's been something I've kind of tried to tried to

23:22
Foster to the best of my ability um but but yeah all of that to say like I I I think for me

23:28
there there really is the like doing of religion and then the way of Jesus it's it's it's not not religion it

23:36
is religion but it's doing that in every sphere of life is what we're

23:43
called to plain and simple yeah that's good that authenticity that basically goes through whatever my tming role

23:50
might be whatever my yes denom whatever my service might be to the kingdom as

23:55
you as we may say yeah totally yeah no I appreciate that also why you're

24:01
talking too is uh so a big purpose behind our podcast

24:07
here and is this idea of taking two polarized Concepts and the problem we

24:15
we've recognized from the very beginning is we're not very polarized so it can only go so far but that is oh the video

24:23
froze it was that drink of water we figured on this end that's right see you were saying what were you

24:30
saying all right um we were we were talking about authenticity and then Justin was

24:36
basically sharing the concept of the podcast is you know we're not that polar

24:42
opposite in some ways but yet our desire is to create this um room for

24:49
conversation yeah right and so I think are you guys recording by the way I don't see it indicating yes not in Zoom

24:56
I'm recording via OB okay sweet thank you for ask yeah thank you appreciate we've been known to

25:03
record a lot of things and not get it down so that's our uh

25:09
record yes that's great back to polarization yeah big reason for the podcast is we really want to talk start

25:16
having conversations with people who or with take this idea where you're over

25:21
there and you belong over there and I belong over here and we throw things back and forth at each other and that applies across politic ICS that applies

25:29
across denominations that applies with the theological beliefs whether you believe in predestination God

25:35
sovereignty versus you know like you know what I'm saying like there's so many things and culturally the facets if

25:42
you will yeah the little things that we know about people that keep us from having the larger

25:48
conversation totally well and it's it's it's hard because in some ways our

25:54
brains work against us in this regard right like there there's a lot I mean I'm a big nerd so

26:01
I'm i' you know uh I'm not a scientist but Neuroscience has been a long interest of mine sociology and

26:08
behavioral economics both interests of mine so it's sort of one of those things where it's like you learn enough about how people choose to do things and what

26:15
they choose to do in life and you go oh darn like we really the deck is stacked against us in a sense um you know uh

26:23
there's this marketing Guru named Seth Goden I don't know if you've heard he has this phrase that kind of boils down

26:30
so much human behavior and it's People Like Us do things like this and so like at the end of the day

26:38
you can pretty accurately predict what a group of people will do if you know what their us is and you know what they think

26:44
that us is supposed to do sure and it's it's kind of fascinating in a sense like

26:51
I feel like at least in theory once upon a time that us was hey we're Christians

26:57
belonging to the church belonging to Jesus and that's what that's how we Define our us so when when we approach

27:03
politics when we approach Municipal issues when we approach our neighbor we're approaching as I'm a Christian and

27:10
a Christian is like and it feels like that I mean Kyper

27:16
was talking about this a hundred years ago but it feels like that first us that first I tribal first principle right has

27:24
sort of been replaced by other things whether it's politics or personal

27:30
Identity or some other some other Allegiance and Christianity is in there but it's in there in the soup as opposed

27:36
to in there as the bowl and and I I think that that's I think that's really

27:42
heartbreaking and I feel like it's it's a total Miss in the church for us to not

27:47
be really calling people to say hey first and foremost the way of life revealed in the

27:55
person of Jesus and empower powered by the spirit and in Christ is the is the

28:02
first principle from which we go out into the world and and and so like even when we were doing Unity work trying to get people from very different

28:08
denominations to work together we found centering on the Creeds like the

28:14
simplest Christian list to at least kind of get the like where do we differ off

28:20
the table it's like hey look if this is what the church has always said is the list we're going to use that list so we

28:25
can set this topic aside and go do work together yeah you that's what Manifesto was actually that it was Creeds yeah

28:33
yeah so good I mean you in one of your songs you say we're looking for a

28:39
prophet to teach you a Shepherd to lead you a king to believe in but isn't that Jesus and I mean it's kind of speaking

28:46
to what you're saying well we're always we all looking toward as humans

28:51
we tend to do this MH and we we take our eyes off of the true king and the true

28:58
Kingdom and we start to replace it with proxies right like oh Jesus Republican

29:05
right or right Baptist and this is now Jesus and that and and but this is

29:11
easier to see this is easier to wrap my mind around this is easier to have an allegiance to and but we still call it

29:17
the Kingdom right oh totally well and I think behind that too there's a there's a not to get all headyy about it but

29:25
there's there's a healthy degree in which I feel like in Western Christianity and I I only speak it that

29:31
way because I don't know present day Eastern Christianity well enough but

29:36
sure but within within our context it feels like there's a dualism that has been taken for granted where we think of

29:44
the Gospel we think of the Christian faith and the implications of the Christian faith as being primarily

29:50
spiritual and having little or nothing to do with real life right sure yes so the the implications of knowing Jesus

29:58
and having the Holy Spirit are a bunch of esoteric spiritual exercises Andor

30:04
experiences and that it's primarily about escaping and sure I just I don't

30:10
see that in the Bible I don't see that in in the Christian story up to up to you know the last up until maybe 150

30:16
years ago and so there is this sense in which like no I the Jewish people were a deeply holistic people they they weren't

30:24
primarily concerned about the afterlife they didn't even barely have a theory of the afterlife so most of the Old

30:30
Testament they're all over the place in terms of what happens after you die so it seems clear to me at least that that

30:36
wasn't the primary concern of Jesus as he called his disciples and you know so

30:42
much of the New Testament is about how do you live now how do you live yeah and that and and I think we've kind of lost

30:48
a lot of that as the main thrust of what is happening and and so no with if

30:55
that's the case then I think it kind of makes sense that people are going to turn to other things to say well if that

31:02
doesn't if Christianity doesn't answer how I should really live because there are reasons I shouldn't take this

31:08
teaching or that teaching seriously then I'm going to look to something else to tell me how I do live because I do have to go to work yeah I do have to go to

31:14
the grocery store and I do have to so we kind of need to redeem a little bit of that like this is a way this is the the

31:21
early churches early Christians were called the way we're following in the footsteps of Jesus the red letters in

31:27
the Sermon on the Mount are instructive yeah not you know and and and really

31:32
take that to heart um but I you know I it feels a little bit like a voice in the wilderness in our

31:39
current to your point about all of that um we're we're pretty involved I've been

31:46
involved in a program called celebrate recovery for 14 15 years and Mark's been

31:51
involved for a few years with me and we love it and a big reason I love it so much is because it's basically saying

31:59
this problem of addiction there is a solution and it's Jesus right and it's basically taking

32:06
it's it's what you're saying it's taking all of these scriptural truths and saying now apply it for real here and

32:12
apply it for real here and apply it for real here and then holding you accountable to that and living in the

32:18
reality of what it is to be a Jesus follower who struggles because all Jesus

32:24
followers struggle you know what I mean and there's the Jesus's teachings are

32:30
full of how to live as a broken person but but trying to follow him you know

32:38
and it's not hard to find tools in the Bible for addiction for whatever it is

32:44
um so it's it's it's been a passion of mine for a long time because it's kind

32:49
of putting boots to the ground in terms of what Jesus said versus practical

32:55
living things out does that make sense oh totally well and I think I think with that like you mentioned the song kir

33:02
alas it's Mercy we need so I wrote that with Zach Bolan of citizens and so citizens features on the song and and of

33:09
course that was in response both to my own experiences and his uh in Mars Hill

33:14
with with Mark Driscoll so we wrote that song before the rise and fall of Mars Hill podcast even came out um my

33:22
experience was had nothing to do with cameras and podcasts but my youth pastor

33:28
had similar personality traits and and the reality is looking back there is good and bad in that that experience and

33:34
relationship I don't want to throw him under the bus it's not that simple um

33:40
but but the reason that the song the the uh the kind of pretense of the song is

33:46
it's Mercy we need is realizing that on some level like personality worshiping

33:52
of if we throw all of our eggs in the basket of a human being that human being will fail us actly one who hasn't and

34:00
and and you know I think there's and I had the gift of having that man in my life saying all along don't follow me

34:06
follow me as I follow Jesus quoting Paul of course sure so there there is this sense in which like we do need that we

34:13
we need the social interaction we need that trust to be meaningful like if if

34:20
in Celebrate Recovery everyone around you failed all of the time and no one actually accomplished what they were

34:25
trying to do it wouldn't be a very effective right and so it's the same thing like

34:30
yes we fail but we are constantly pulling each other forward because we exist in a

34:36
community While redirecting and that that's a kind of a two-sided thing that

34:41
we have to do um and I think we we so love personality worship as people we're

34:47
drawn to that and and and so that I think there's a reason that at the heart of it all God ENT Jesus essentially

34:54
calls us to Mercy and kindness in you know the story of the Good Samaritan in

35:00
breaking it all down to the shama and loving God and neighbor basically the same there's this sort of this sort of

35:07
like hey well what does kindness mean kindness is treating of like kind right so there's this this sort of like hey at

35:14
the heart of the Christian me Christian message is a love that surpasses our

35:20
failures and surpasses our dividing lines and surpasses our boundaries and that includes not holding someone up in

35:27
in a a place that they can't possibly live up to yeah and it's interesting as you

35:34
think about that I think that's what the Sermon on the Mount was you have been taught you know the Pharisees have

35:40
demonstrated you know but I'm showing you I'm telling you this is what the

35:46
kingdom is about you know and I think yeah totally and I think that's what we're talking about you know so so much

35:52
of what we believe or tend to think about we have been taught by someone you

35:58
know who we've held in esteem whether it's our parents whether it's a worship leader whether it's a youth pastor those

36:05
kind of things and it is about that relearning based on you know Jesus

36:11
wanting or deserving even and being able to extend that Mercy to others and to

36:16
ourselves to say okay yeah this is what you've learned this is what you've been taught so it makes perfect sense right

36:24
that you're operating in this way CU people like that's exactly it yeah people like us do things like that right

36:31
yes yes right that's right yes and I mean Christianity is 2,000 years old and as diverse as every nation on the planet

36:39
and I'm talking about like basic Orthodox Christianity not even talking about you know all of the various

36:46
Splinter Cults that might break off I mean like within the confines of genuine

36:51
authentic Christian faith we have a lot of history and a lot of diversity and so

36:57
I think you know just because someone failed me horribly and they did and just

37:03
because someone bordered on abuse and I don't know but you know it certainly gets close and and so like just because

37:10
those things happen doesn't mean that Jesus isn't who he says he is it means that it means that there's I've got work

37:16
to do in understanding and unearthing in a sense through history and these

37:22
ancient writers and current writers and going what is it what is what's the what's the diamond in the center of all

37:29
of this coal that just keeps shining through no matter what and and that that's you know we've talked about this

37:35
record is like stubbornly hopeful um because it's kind that's kind of it

37:40
like it's not a deconstruction record so to speak because if if if you wanted to describe my spiritual life that would

37:47
have happened 20 years ago and it did in a sense like trying to figure out what's

37:52
this or what's that in faith that's a journey I'm I'm still on um but it

37:57
certainly is a like hey I've been I've been as frustrated and and angry and it's like lament and hope in the same

38:05
place it's it we started this record Brent and I when we were first talking

38:10
about it I was like I really feel like if I make anything right now first of all it was approached as an album so I

38:16
appreciated that you listened to it as such but um it was meant to be a journey from start to finish um lyrically

38:22
musically all of it and so it's sort of this sense in like

38:27
it I think I feel like it' be really hard to put out a worship record right

38:33
now or any record that's designed to help people pray prayers through music

38:38
and have it not be at least Bittersweet yeah I I don't know how someone living

38:47
in North America or the West can look at our life as the church right now and not

38:54
be like well this is complicated right I mean we' got a lot of people angry about a lot of things and for good reasons and

39:01
so I think it as those of us helping people process that through music and

39:07
prayer I just can't imagine having made a record that was you know rainbow and

39:13
sunshines and high and unicorns I just don't I don't see it yeah yeah yeah

39:19
and those albums certainly exist but they're kind of disjointed right from it

39:25
certainly feels like it but sense if it makes sense if your Christianity is totally divorced from your real life

39:31
yeah that's that's the place where you go to happy that's where you go to

39:36
escape the real world instead like you said that's where you go to get them you do that you do that and then

39:42
you walk into your everyday life going rainbows and unicorns rainbows it's like well can you please it doesn't

39:50
seem my kids already did I'm sure it just yeah it was good I love uh

39:58
you know cuz you're you're saying without you it's smoking mirror only noise but but and that's where that hope

40:04
comes in and when I when I listen to that song and so much

40:09
of the album there's just so many moments where it's like I'm with you in that pain but there's always a butt

40:16
because he doesn't need us culturally to be something he's going to be what he's

40:23
going to be with or without us so when and he does show up it doesn't matter

40:30
how wrong we're doing it right and so there's something about that for me

40:35
that's recognized I'll never do it perfect cuz I I yeah me and my wife we lead worship

40:43
at CR and so there's so many days where I get in my way in God's way and I'm

40:48
like you know what I can't fix that 100% I can work at it and

40:54
I can repent ultimately what I really need is it needs you to do what you did last week because that wasn't me you

41:02
know what I you know what I mean and so but and there's so many moments where he shows up and you go H well that's not me

41:09
so I hope you guys are enjoying this I am you know and totally there's that hope that comes when he does what he

41:16
does so I love that balance you know yeah well it's it's I think so much of

41:22
real human life has lived in that tension it's in the space in between hurt and brok Bress and difficulty and

41:29
all of that and the ideal good that we know is there like we we see through a

41:34
glass Darkly right but I think there's I think there's really something to be said for the beauty of the smallness of

41:39
what you're talking about in CR yeah agreed like and and there's there's I

41:45
think part of why we are so drawn to the idea of Mega movements is because they

41:50
cost us nothing so easy to wave a flag of

41:57
belonging to something and maybe give my 5% or 2% or whatever the statistics are

42:03
and be like Oh I'm I'm doing this thing here without having to worry about what

42:08
Fred next door is doing or whether I'm kind whether I'm kind to him regardless of his choices in life you know whether

42:15
I show him love yeah you know I mean that's that's one of the shocking things about The Sermon on the Mount I mean

42:22
Jesus is sitting there telling an occupied people mhm an occupied people

42:28
like violently occupied to love their enemy and carry their bag an extra mile

42:34
now there there are layers to that that's a nuanced and complicated instruction but it is also a simple

42:39
instruction the simple part of it doesn't change and so and I think we've gotten to the point where we've turned

42:45
our various isms into just another flag that we wave because it's so much easier

42:50
than doing it but you go to CR and you're part of this small thing you're looking that person in the face I mean I

42:57
remember I used to run an alpha group at uh years and years ago I was sort of running it with with with my friend um

43:04
at uh a a shelter like a rehab oh cool it was and so we were we were doing

43:10
Alpha and leading Worship in that same way with guys who were sharing just heartbreaking stories of the cards real

43:16
life had dealt them and uh it's funny you know few years later I'm on a tour bus tour in the world and fly into so

43:23
and so and and I love all of that I'm not saying it isn't a blast cuz

43:28
but like you you I don't know if it's age or what but you you're like both of those things are good but one of these

43:35
things changes the world in 300 years and and another one of them seems to kind of break every 10 see this is what

43:41
I'm talking about what I hear in your album is what you're saying like you you

43:47
toured the world you played in front of whatever stadiums auditoriums and there

43:53
was a certain amount of impact in uh significance to that that I think you

43:59
probably experienced I would hope right whereas this is amazing yeah I feel like it mattered I don't I don't but it did

44:06
right at the same time you get you know further along in your life you and you've had enough oneon-one counseling

44:13
sessions or you know uh you heard someone's Story come from a broken place

44:18
and you're like this thing matters yeah more than all of that is like or heck

44:24
I've had to go to therapy myself I mean there's all like there there's enough real life as

44:30
you get on and my kids are teenagers and so my own feelings and I don't mean my kids feelings I mean my own feelings as

44:37
a parent stare me in the face every day where they they're like hey you're you're not all you want to crack be

44:43
cracked up to and I'm like that's totally fair yeah you know so I think there's I think there's there's

44:49
something as you get older where you just go you know it's I'm I'm as Earnest as I ever was I think probably well

44:56
actually probably more Earnest I'm I have you know I'm I'm less afraid of losing influence or you know something

45:05
like that because I'm just like you know at the end of the day I you need to know who your friends are you need to know

45:11
who your people are you need to know what's important to you and try your darnest to do it empowered by the spirit

45:18
um and I I you know I I would love I would love at this point I'm hoping for

45:23
my kids adulthood them thinking you know what Dad wasn't perfect but he gave it a song go yeah yeah same yeah no doubt no

45:31
doubt that would be okay by me that's a that's a successful

45:36
R yeah I feel the same way I uh it's interesting I love hearing a perspective

45:42
from someone like you who has toured and done those things

45:47
and has kind of come back to this place of you know what probably matters more than that Stadium room God could have

45:54
done something in any one of those stadiums and and and that is you know like of course but recognizing that I

46:01
could walk across the street and talk to my neighbor and the 300 years from now that could have a bigger impact right

46:08
what you're saying yeah well like last night my wife and I are walking so this is not to say I'm some kind of hero far

46:14
from it um my wife was the hero in this scenario we're Hamilton is a rough City so we're walking you know from our

46:21
parking spot to the theater where we went to see a musical um and to two

46:27
homeless guys younger guy both some on something uh and the younger guy's just

46:32
beating the snot out of the older guy and my wife my wife jumps in and says hey what are you guys doing it's okay

46:38
you got to stop and I I'm jumping in the same way and it dawned on me and there so the guy comes right up to us is

46:44
talking and we called the police shortly afterwards to get it's just this like little like I could have not done any of

46:50
that I could have I could have done more than I did I could have done a lot less but it's like those little choices

46:57
we encounter them all of the time right all of the time and that has nothing at

47:02
all to do with you know my guitar amp yeah like there nothing nothing to do

47:08
with it that's not to say that's not meaningful right those those moments together that's that sort of fuels the

47:16
rest of it but it isn't the point at all and so that you kind of get this like

47:21
Jesus is saying hey the crowds aren't evil it's not like the and we have a tendency to kind of go black or white in

47:29
this oh it's all about small groups in home Church well problem is the early church went to the temple too so you

47:36
kind of have this history doesn't agree with it's all about home church and then you have this kind of it's all about the

47:43
big meeting it's well that doesn't work either because all of the instructions we have are about lived life and so you

47:49
have this kind of tension I think this this and we want it to be a very simple

47:56
answer and God gives us Jesus gives us that he says the first principle of

48:01
Christianity is love the Lord your God in every domain in your life and just like that love your neighbor sure and

48:08
that's that's it that's the you want a simple version of Christianity yeah it's there it isn't whenn at a political

48:15
issue it isn't power at all costs in fact if anything it looks like the opposite of power at all costs but like

48:21
you know it's kind of this pursue these two things and I think there's a Ro to

48:27
be played in podcasts and concerts and albums and all of that um but for the for the for the longest time I I

48:33
concerned myself in music with what sort of Music it was I was writing was it

48:39
congregational worship music or not and that sort of thing and I think on this record I've become a little more

48:44
comfortable with the idea that um there's a little bit of that on the record there's probably three or four

48:49
songs that would make great worship songs at church um but a lot of what I do is for the rest of the week mhm you

48:56
know and it it's not really for the purposes of entertainment although it is entertaining hopefully but it's it's

49:02
it's really like me processing my following good and bad out

49:08
loud in in the hopes of giving somebody else the ability to whether it's on their run or their morning walk or

49:14
whatever you know to to do the same thing and have language that they didn't have to do that it's kind of what we do

49:22
as as worship prayers you know so this this record does have a bit more of like an artistic and and I don't know

49:31
vulnerable flare to it than worship records Canen and certainly then I've

49:36
been able to produce at different times so yeah no and like you say I'm

49:41
definitely not uh steep in worship nearly as much as uh Justin is and

49:47
that's a compliment you know to be to have that being so much of your life you know you you're immersed in it to a

49:53
degree and and that's a great thing but it was uh it was defitely uh for me you

49:58
know from the outside listening to your album I appreciated the way I guess my wife and I whenever we go somewhere to

50:05
worship you know corporately you know it's a we just appreciate so much when

50:11
there is a vocabulary that draws us you know towards Christ and who God is

50:18
versus the me worship style that you know repeats what I am and how God can

50:25
help me versus how me focusing on God and and drawing close to him transforms

50:32
me and you know and I and I think so much of that is that difference between entertainment and worship you know and I

50:40
think that becomes you know there again there's that tension and I was just GNA that's what I

50:45
was going to say is like I think the reality is though that's aention so what what often worship leaders will do is

50:51
make that into a hard and fast rule yeah say they'll say oh I can't write a song with with personal pronouns in it it all

50:57
has to be talking to God the problem is the vast majority of Christian history

51:03
use the Suter as the worship book of the ages sure and you know it were we to make that a hard and fast rule we only

51:10
talk to God never about ourselves we don't celebrate anything God has done for us we only celebrate who God is

51:16
you'd fail the Bible yeah yeah so so if if the song book of the Bible can't pass

51:21
that rule it's a good reminder a bad rule no doubt that's kind of that's kind of saying that that that tension is

51:29
there and and worship leaders are so often drawn to the simplest version of it so they can move on sure and and I

51:36
think that's something that I don't think following Jesus allows us to do very easily is is move on to the next

51:43
thing we can be victorious over doesn't yeah doesn't it you know what Eugene

51:49
Peterson called it a a long walk in the same direction right so it's that kind of like so much of Christian faith is up

51:57
again like CR sure it's showing up again and being hey today this this is what it

52:04
means for me to be faithful of this and so that's part of one of the dilemmas in

52:10
kind of I I don't want to I'm not calling anyone in particular out but this this

52:15
occasional tendency to like almost like a toxic positivity in worship like the only songs we sing are victorious over

52:22
all of our problems and J walls fell down and she like yeah sometimes the Wall's just still there but there's also

52:30
this other side where it's all about the drama and how hard life is and yeah and

52:35
Jesus can get you through but it's still it's focused on the difficult it's kind of the opposite of what you're saying

52:40
focused on positivity or whatever there's also a focus on negativity exactly and those draw me in more than

52:46
the positivity ones those tie into my struggle with mental health and different things and those

52:53
can and and it is attention it is a balance because sometimes that's what I

52:58
need to hear I need someone to meet me where I am right and sameere Y yeah they

53:04
both they both are needed I think this is a conversation I had recently with my wife too about denominations and

53:10
different churches and and I think you and I talked about it too is there's a reason there's a Baptist Church and you

53:17
know our church and and and this other Baptist Church all within five miles and it's it's it's because God said it was

53:25
supposed to be that way and he wanted this person here and this person here and this person here because that's what

53:30
they needed that that in his sovereignty in his wisdom chose and I think that's

53:36
true with music I think that's true with so many things and one of the things we've figured out with polarization in

53:42
these conversations is that's the easy part is saying oh I'm black or I'm white

53:47
and problem solving like you said now I can move on to the next problem when it's as Believers like you said if we're

53:55
doing number number one and number two right love God love people often times

54:01
those things take us away from that you know because yeah well there's a couple there's a couple fascinating things I

54:06
think with that first um there's a few studies called dumbers number um which

54:13
has come out which is talking about how much the brain's capacity for Community

54:19
size you heard of this no no so so this is a study that's been debated and the

54:25
thing is everyone to a number and that number is never a thousand let me just put it that way so G's first theory was

54:32
125 okay so brain basically has capacity for around

54:38
125 you know we can remember Community connectors and of that uh we have 15

54:44
that dictate 90% of our life in time and of that we have like three to five which dictate 90% of that so it's it's like

54:51
you have a small group of people which are relationships you can count on one hand who are the real people then you have about 15 people that are your Wider

54:57
Circle and then you have about 125 people and no matter what else you're doing that's about what you have in

55:03
terms of meaningful relationships and that kind of rings true for most people I think there's sort of the sense of

55:08
like yeah I guess there might be contextual relationships there might be but if someone at the end of their life

55:13
is for you know very few funerals have a thousand people at them and so like there's this kind of bonded thing and I

55:21
think like we tend to think larger than that while still doing small in that

55:26
sense right like we still do that 125 people thing so it's no surprise that

55:31
humans organize and divide the question is when you have that thing happening is

55:38
there a layer above it which we recognize as bonding us and binding us together and so that's like yes you have

55:44
the Methodist Church you have the Baptist Church you have the Catholic Church you have whatever Anglican Church

55:49
down the road the question is do we all say and we have Jesus in common mhm and and approach each other as

55:56
brothers and sisters on Mission together as a result of that and I think I think that's a really important facet that I

56:03
was I'm Greatful to have grown up in a city where that was the norm and that's a very rare thing and

56:10
I'll be honest today it feels like it's a struggle to keep in Hamilton it it feels different than it did it's hitting

56:16
less hard than it did um as far as I can tell but it's still that desire is still

56:21
there because we've seen it firsthand here so there is there is that there

56:26
I I think with the the music thing too there's and I kind of get it from a

56:32
songwriting standpoint you've got a group of people you've got a community of people and you

56:37
got a let's say you're at a small Church of 100 you're at a big church of 600 doesn't really matter right you're at a

56:43
church of 10,000 I don't know and you want everyone to come in to Sunday

56:48
morning and relate to something so that they can be invested and be fully

56:53
holistically invested in what's happening to together in corporate worship so that's that's a good goal

56:59
it's a noble goal and so I think that naively what sometimes happens is writers and songwriters and worship

57:05
leaders or pastors will say okay what we need to do is use uh averaging language

57:11
we need to use the stuff that is safely Universal but the problem is that that's

57:17
often dehumanizing we take the things that people can actually relate to out of it and we give them almost nothing to

57:24
relate you know yeah plat right whereas like you know the studies are showing

57:29
for example that people are people who are angry are find Angry music more

57:37
cathartic and more therapeutic than calming music that you know listening to

57:43
musac and elevator music when you're angry makes you more Angry you know so

57:49
there is something so like yeah everyone you don't need to have been to New York to hear a song about New York and get it

57:57
yeah there's something in like oh I have a street just like that there's a city just I can relate to that specific

58:04
experience I mean it's Psalm 2 before Zion which is a very particular is

58:09
mentioned like the Psalms don't Dodge the specific sure you know and it's

58:14
often those specific things that we grab and so as you're talking about like humanity and music and and feeling like

58:20
hey I often gravitate towards the stuff that seems hurtful avoiding that stuff

58:25
actually doesn't make that stuff go away right and and and if anything it actually makes people feel like the the

58:32
Gap and divorce between the Christian Life and what it's required to participate in the Christian Life and their real life is wider and wider and

58:39
wider and wider because now they're they're not allowed to have any negative emotions in the process and we all have

58:45
yeah so I so I think there's really I'm just I don't know that I'm succeeding but I'm certainly trying my best to go

58:51
hey look I'm going to try to more and more write vulnerable honest human

58:56
worship songs and I hope that that calls us to more I hope that that calls us to Christlike living um but I but I don't

59:03
read scriptures I don't read Paul I don't read David and Jesus and see at

59:09
the end of that that we're called to deny Being Human through it it's not that what the Psalms are about really

59:15
when you stop and think about it the diversity yeah one one chapter it's like

59:20
God you're the only thing and then the next it's like God how'd you do this you know yeah and also like how many head

59:26
can I chop off that's is all over the place exactly it

59:32
is and it is just the our our song books aren't now yeah Psalms is not neutered

59:38
to your point like it is very raw very visceral and in all of David's life

59:44
isn't that what made him a man after God's Own Heart was that authenticity that we're actually talking about is

59:50
that ability to say Okay God this is where I'm at but you know that yeah

59:58
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