Mark:

Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization. through thoughtful conversations.

Justin:

And I culturally, you know, you’re talking about the people who it’s with personality worship, that whole idea. And I think I think probably all of us have yeah, I mean I know for sure you you had a personality like that in your life. I certainly did. Um so uh in fact, you know, listening to Mark Driscoll reminds me of him so much. And um I think the beauty of it is that God uses that stuff as well. And it I think it’s spun off this version of culture now where there is some disenfranchisement. That’s not good. But there’s also a a desire and a seeking of authenticity, which is good. You know, and to where there’s space for an album like yours. There’s space for being real. And not having this perfectly packaged CCM, you know, album, but reality is in the mix and there’s a longing for that, a desire for that. And Um I think authentic and that’s not just the Christian culture, right? Authenticity is more and more desired and appreciated. You know, you think about fifty, sixty years ago where you wanted the you wanted a professional to help you, someone who knew what they were doing, they could talk above you so you trusted them. Okay, I trust you, you know what you’re doing, you’re smart. And now it’s kind of the opposite where trust comes when I know you’re real. And that cultural shift has happened in I want to say the last twenty years or whatever. Um and that obviously bled into the church and chicken or egg, you know, the whole Mark Driscoll that that personality worship, which came first? Was that us doing it first? I kinda don’t think so. I kinda think we are modeling the world in you know and saying, oh that works over there, let’s do that here too. I don’t know. But it could be the other way and it doesn’t matter.

Elias:

In a lot of ways the phenomenon that drives I think the phenomenon that drove Mars Hill and a million other people like Mark Um and the phenomenon that drives vanilla positivity Christian songwriting, which we’re all tr you know prone to fall into as writers, is is the same. It’s it I don’t know if this is too crass, but like it’s like the pornification of everything.

Justin:

Yeah.

Elias:

We want we want the shortcut to the illusion of the thing without having to do or experience any of the awkward real parts of getting there.

Justin:

Right.

Elias:

You know, and so it’s like so someone like Mark Driscoll being allowed opinionated caricature which has parallels in other spaces in life, but nevertheless, uh that this having that kind of personality um To live vicariously through means I don’t have to. As long as I agree with his vicarious loudness, then I can I can sort of have to do it and and it’s like no but I’m with him and he’s really doing it. Just look

Justin:

okay.

Elias:

And and and there’s the same thing with music where it’s like, oh no, I’m I’m for four minutes, three and a half minutes, I’m victorious and peppy and I feel that and it’s not to discount that that can happen, that those songs really can be a moment for somebody that spins them into something. Of course that can happen. I’m not saying that can’t. It’s just That can’t be it. These moments need to be Springboards that lead us to, I mean, the album is called The Work for a Reason. I mean these These are these are springboards to doing the work of living faithful life. I mean the every song we ever write as a worship writer is part of liturgy. Even if we don’t call it that, even if we don’t recognize that, we should feel the weight of knowing We’re competing with grammar. So like we’re we’re in there doing the real thing of helping people pray prayers. And if we don’t feel that weight, then we’re not paying attention. The word liturgy is the work of the people. We’re these songs are fuel for lived life. They are not a four-minute distraction or a setup for a bad stand-up comic on a Sunday. That’s not the vibe. We are we are we are doing description in these songs, you know? And and and I I I hope that we all recognize that. I certainly am trying to increasingly myself and and and and feel weighed down in a sense like who do I think I am, you know, and speaking of Mark Criscal. But like the that that that sense of like The the work of living this thing and doing the long, slow, hard work of living it out is different from simply appreciating it for four minutes at a time. It’s just not the same thing. One leads to the other It doesn’t automatically mean it happens. You know? Um and I I I think I think that’s just been such a I I can’t even say I’m nailing it right now. I’m kind of in this space myself where with the ha chaos of moving country and everything else we’re My my personal discipline of prayer isn’t what I would like it to be, to be perfectly honest. It has been, of course, but but it you know if I think of this last month, it’s like my life is chaos right now.

Mark:

Sure.

Elias:

And and and so much of I think I don’t know if it’s maturing or what or growing, it’s like, you know what, I it’s not that I think God doesn’t care. It’s that I don’t want to be motivated simply by guilt. There’s a discipline difference between discipline and relationship and like this is the you know and so I I’m kind of in this space of of finding moments where I get them and in in trying to be with Jesus in a simple, you know, childhood sense. And uh and I’m grateful for that. But But at the same time I I also know like hey life is hard sometimes and busy and crazy.

Justin:

Yeah.

Elias:

And you know, I think so much of what I need to be doing and need to be focusing on is Living lovingly, and that means centering in who God is and also loving my neighbor well.

Mark:

Yeah.

Elias:

That’s heart, that’s work.

Justin:

It’s yeah, agreed. Um Yeah. If you don’t mind, there’s a couple uh lyrics I want to talk about

Elias:

Sure, yeah, great.

Justin:

Or phrases, I should say. The first one I want to talk about. Okay, so my favorite worship leader is my wife. She’s taught me everything in uh I just love her heart when it comes to worship in um yeah. Mike, would you agree she’s your favorite? I agree she’s your favorite

Mark:

in more ways than one.

Elias:

I was like, that’s not true at all.

Justin:

Yeah. Anyway, sh there’s a lot of things that we’ve talked about over the years, but one of the things she has talked about is how much she appreciates O’s. Oz You know, or even like uh manifesto amen, right? Like those elongated opportunities to worship without having to have words Because there’s something in it and I you know, I think she would describe it like um w the Bible talks about the hi the the wordless groans like the Holy Spirit will speak for us in in ways that we can’t understand. So in some ways it’s this p singing prayer of I don’t know but you know kinda. I I’d love to get your take on that. On O

Elias:

it’s it’s I can get real geeky if you want.

Justin:

Please do.

Elias:

So so uh one of the fascinating things in the last 15 years with how much neuroscience has developed and evolved is we can see that group singing, so people singing out loud together, has a physiological effect that rivals practically every group activity except for sex. So like there is there is this like this so when you sing in a group, you know, fundamentally basic human thing in most cultures. So when you sing in a group, your brain produces huge amounts of a hormone called oxytocin, which is sometimes called the love hormone. And it’s the same o same hormone That a mother is flooded with when she breastfeeds the first time, same hormone when your elbows touch at the movies on your first date. It’s that bonding agent. uh that kind of does the thing. So just the practice of seeing on a material level does something in us as as humans. And what’s crazy is just a few years ago, University of Bonn in Germany showed that oxytocin, one of the byproducts of oxytocin, is altruism. So let’s go back to Matthew 22 for a second. Love the Lord your God with your whole self, your body, all of these things. So dopamine and oxytocin, both produced by groups singing Your body’s enthralled, you’re bonded with the people around you, you’re bonded with your community just in the act of group singing, right? And then apparently You’re also, at least in some way, fueled to love your neighbor as yourself.

Mark:

Sure.

Elias:

So that just in the act of group singing, a little bit of Matthew 22 is taking place. Mm-hmm.

Mark:

No doubt.

Elias:

Which is I think really crazy. Because I know a lot of people will, a lot of Christians will, you know, treat science as a toss away. I I’m not one of them. I’m really into it. But um but the the the reality is I think it’s remarkable that God gave us brains and bodies to use and And and you know, again to our point about being holistic as opposed to divine lives, it’s like it seems like God baked in

Justin:

Yep.

Elias:

Some of these things that Christian tradition discovered and has done and and you know Christianity has always been a singing faith for a reason.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

It’s amazing. And this is this is just one example of you know, hundreds of thousands I’m sure we’ve come up with over our over our collective existence as humans to see, oh, there was a reason for that, you know. And seeing like science catch up and Um, Mark and I had an episode recently about creationism versus evolution, that whole thing, because again, very polarized, right? Even within Christian culture There’s polarized views between what creationism is, right? And uh but that was one of the themes was just talking about science and how we don’t have to be a f there’s this tendency to be afraid of science if you depending on what you know cultural situation you grew up in. Yeah. Well you were

Mark:

taught. Sure.

Justin:

Yeah.

Elias:

Yeah.

Justin:

But that’s yeah. Like you said, we don’t have to be afraid of it. Instead it’s exciting. It should be Because it’s just gonna show more and more of his plan and his creativity. Anyway, that’s really cool.

Mark:

And I think it’s interesting because I mean realistically, all truth is God’s truth. Yes. You know, depending on when we find it out. So, you know, the fact that we’re singing together or the fact that we’re even singing puts it in our brain in such a way that we don’t have to memorize these long you know I think of Old Testament you know that memorization that could go along with song that the minute I hear that song it all comes to my mind. I don’t have to recite it as a as a pledge Yeah, and I so I think, you know, that connection is just fascinating how God has baked in that ability and you know there is a purpose. in worship, whether we know all of those purposes yet or not, but yet even the little parts that we become aware of through science make Oh yeah. God you did yeah. This this Well and

Elias:

I think we’re we’re complicated people. We have emotions, we have all of these things, and I think the tendency in Christian faith, like no emotions bad, reason good. Well we learn enough to that’s not simple either. And so it’s like you kind of get in this like, well it turns out that there’s something to be said for the whole person coming to bear in prayer. And that means, you know, emotions and all the rest of it. And and so I think that there’s really something beautiful in that. You know, no doubt. We can see Oh, the whole Music does things to the whole person in a unique way, and it makes it makes an activity more than a solitary individualistic exercise. It makes it a shared communal experience, you know. You could talk about flow state, you could talk about the fact that groups aligns heartbeats. I mean it goes on. It is the craziest science around group singing is the craziest stuff. I think for thinking about what it means to wh and why it’s such a big part of what we do to get

Mark:

shirts

Justin:

so good.

Elias:

Um yeah.

Justin:

I feel like you’re avoiding the O question

Elias:

No, I mean I think that ain’t the answer. That ain’t the answer. What there’s and this is it this is part of the thing. It’s like there’s something to simply the act of singing together that is beautiful and impactful. So the O’s and O’s and all of that are super helpful. Anyone can wrap their head around it and they can go there with you. I think it’s a good thing. Now sometimes what’ll happen is you’ll get guys who kind of like, oh well all worship songs should be like the old hymns, which are pretty and theologically dense and and I there is something to be said for content and quality. I I do think that’s good. But again, we’re talking about human beings. We’re not simply having people sing the dictionary or the out or the phone book. It’s a some we’re human beings and there’s a give and take. There’s tension and release in that. And I think so for me I’ve tended towards verses which are punch, punch, punch, punch, punch, and then choruses which allow people to breathe.

Justin:

Yeah.

Elias:

It’s that it’s like a good movie in my mind. There’s tension and release. There’s build and there’s breathe in and breathe out, breathe in and breathe out. And I think so much of those moments, those O ‘s and Oz and and you know, those kind of big soaring moments are are really about that. It’s like, okay, you’ve been chewing, now swallow. Let’s let’s move on. Nice kind of thing.

Mark:

Sure

Justin:

The other uh lyric I want to reference is Holy is the Lord. Because this is like I don’t know if you knew this. You probably did, but that’s probably the most common phrase across all of your you know, including sitting harmonic And I love it because, you know, Revelation’s talking about that’s that’s what the four living creatures I wrote this down, each of them with six wings or full of eyes, all around within, day and night, they never cease to say Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty who was and is and is to come. It’s this idea that you can say this for infinity and it’s never enough. Um but yeah, I I wanted to get your take on that. Did you know that that’s I’m I assume you did.

Elias:

Yeah, yeah, no, I mean it’s it’s all over the place. I mean from from start to finish. I think I think one of the things that has stood out to me for a long time. And get real esoteric here if we want. Um but is like the idea that the word holy essentially means like yes set apart, but set apart as other.

Mark:

So

Elias:

sort of this like unlikeness. And so you have this really fascinating thing where the holy, the unlike makes human beings and s makes us in our in his image. So there’s this kind of strange like but unlike thing happening. And so it kind of makes sense then that there’s this a theological idea called participation, which is common in uh Greek Orthodox circles. The Eastern Church has been into this forever. Um but it’s the idea that like we as believers and and the question in theological circles has been to what extent does Paul take for granted the theology of participation in his own satirology and theology. So it’s that that kind of like participation being that the church, people participate in the church, and the church participates in the body of Christ. So that language is very consistent in you know throughout all of Paul. And so if you’re looking at holy is the Lord, how does a holy God relate to his creation if we are both like and unlike God? And so it kind of forces us to come face to face with the idea of being made like God. Now Not in some crazy sense. I mean, that’s the thing. We’re called to be little Christs. That’s the whole so there is there is this tension in God is holy, therefore I am pulled into holiness. self throughout the whole scope of my life, throughout every every sphere of my life. It’s again not an exercise which occurs as a means of like, oh, wouldn’t it be lovely if things were holy It’s a calling unto holiness. And so even they that sang is the song you’re talking about. And it’s it’s a song that kind of marries the science of singing we were just talking about. from this old, probably misattributed Augustine quote for you know, he that sings praise twice. But but it is the idea that like There’s something in singing that it that emboldens and bolsters the power of prayer in our own experience and our own lives. I think that’s true. Um and and so like in that singing there’s something happening in our whole bodies, and from that comes this song that in the second verse of that song leads into every other domain of our lives because it goes into Matthew 22. Holy is the Lord. So what does it mean to sing holy? Well it means to be holy is the Lord. You know, in every domain of our lives. So that’s really what that song’s trying to get to very simply. Um it’s sort of one of the few Very congregational, very sort of meditative songs. It repeats itself, um, which there isn’t a lot of on this record, but that one that song is one of them.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s a good one. I like that one. I I like that line too. I didn’t heard the I didn’t know it was Augustine or whatever, but um just the idea that I was telling him

Mark:

He that sings praise twice.

Justin:

Yeah, he that sings praise twice so many times in worship. It’s prayer, but it’s like enhanced enhanced prayer essentially. So it’s like 2x prayer essentially. So

Elias:

absolutely. Well you set a rhythm to it and you give people a cadence All over the idea of praying together is a lot easier.

Mark:

Yeah, no doubt. How many how many times do you find yourself humming the prayer you said in your closet in the morning versus the prayer that you said with other people in the midst of a congregation? That’s what continues in your mind.

Justin:

That’s good.

Mark:

In the process, yeah.

Elias:

Ooh yeah. Sticks.

Mark:

Exactly. Yes. Unfortunately for some of us it’s the same five words that stick over and over and over again, but you know

Justin:

you’ve sing those five words so well. That’s very good.

Elias:

Yeah, oh my gosh, that’s great.

Justin:

Uh yeah. I’d love to t uh I’m glad you talked a little bit about City Harmonic. I wasn’t sure how all that went down in terms of like the ship from that to to solo.

Elias:

Oh oh it ‘s totally totally healthy. Yeah.

Justin:

That’s amazing.

Elias:

We’re still friends. We’re planning a barbecue in a couple weeks.

Mark:

Nice

Elias:

No, there’s nothing the Eric had cancer and he fought cancer for three years, uh came back after two years And uh, you know, after a year of screen realized he couldn’t anymore. Um, and the rest of us were like, well, let’s keep trying, and sort of decided, you know what, we’re a band ‘s band. And uh you know, w we need to close the book. I mean I I often compare it to this uh very particular uh sitcom that takes place in a workplace. Um where there was originally a British version and then there was an American version. The British The British version was what two seasons I think

Mark:

eating.

Elias:

It was great.

Mark:

No, but that’s okay.

Justin:

Is it okay if we say it?

Mark:

I was just trying to figure it out while he gave more and more of the story. So yeah, keep going.

Elias:

You look at the office.

Mark:

Yes, the office.

Elias:

The UK version of the Office was crass at times, but it was it knew exactly what it was doing. It was tightly packaged, and it ended when they needed to end. The American office was nine seasons, of which three were great. So that’s like, you know, sixty percent of what they did was kind of wasting everybody’s time to keep going because they could, because he was making money. And I think of that as like a metaphor for creative projects. It’s like, you know I could just do this because I could. We could stere on it could have continued because it was practical to do so, because it paid our bills But we started as a band on mission. We were commissioned by 30 odd churches to go out and do what we did.

Justin:

Wow.

Elias:

And rather than just ride off into the sunset slowly while everyone got bored of us, we called it.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah

Justin:

Are you ever tempted to get Yeah, there there’s a lot to be said for that. Um yeah. Have you ever Are you ever tempted to get together to just Do something. I don’t know.

Elias:

Well, Eric.

Mark:

Have a barbecue.

Elias:

Music. I don’t think that the band as a whole will reunite

Justin:

Musically.

Elias:

Not for any, you know, particularly I just don’t everyone’s moved on in their lives I think. Um but Eric and I Eric is still full full time in music. I’m still very focused on music. So It’s uh a big part of our lives. Eric co-wrote the song Fire and Ice with this record that we did that. And so that’s still part of Well you know, we’re still I haven’t had lunch in the last week, so we’re still very

Mark:

Yeah. Is he in remission? Or is he

Elias:

Oh yeah, he’s he’s on the other side of it.

Mark:

Wonderful.

Elias:

Um

Justin:

that’s awesome.

Elias:

But with with complications, of course, you know, that that well probably he’ll he has a a liver disorder, for example, as a result of it that’ll probably never Yeah it never go away. So so that’s there’s stuff like that. But no, I mean he’s on the other side of it and life is good.

Mark:

Glad to hear that.

Justin:

That’s awesome, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Obviously Manifesto is a favorite, I think probably of pretty much anyone who’s heard of them but uh heard of you guys but uh holy wedding day man that song punches me every time I hear it like at the end I don’t know. I just it’s such a great I just we were talking about holy is the Lord, right? And singing at that revelation end times day you know, when we get to all go up there um that song is very much pr painting a beautiful picture of that and yeah it’s such a great song. I’d love to hear your thoughts on it like Just whatever, you know, what you write in.

Elias:

So one of the things that sort of started my theological exploration journey twenty years ago was first encountering N. T. Wright, the theologian out of the UK who I’m a huge fan of. And he talks a lot about how so we often reduce Christianity. to going to heaven when we die, as opposed to this marriage of heaven and earth and Jesus and the bride. in which is what we see in Revelation. And so in in in I think it’s Revelation chapter three or four, but the the picture that is painted of the angel singing holy, holy, we often read that as like only future tense. It’s like, oh, this is what it will be like. Whereas that section of Revelation is actually saying, this is what it is already and always like. And then there are other sections of Revelation, of course, 21, for example, that are pointing to new heavens and new earth and this reality of creation redeemed and lives redeemed and the cities redeemed and this and this kind of city of God being the react the new lived reality centered in and around Jesus And so that song is a a a really thick metaphor.

Mark:

Um

Elias:

so there’s sort of this like There’s the church and the bri there’s the bride and the groom, of course, the church and Jesus, which I thought the idea of the church as the bride of Christ was really universal. Like I thought everybody knew that.

Justin:

Yeah.

Elias:

At least youth pastors. And then we played an event and a youth pastor we walked we went into a Wendy’s to grab a snack after a show And the youth pastor called us aside in front of their whole youth group and was like, hey, what’s who’s the bride? And they were totally serious. I was like, oh, I thought yeah, I thought this was like a thing, you know, that everyone knew.

So anyway, that’s

The the bride refers to the church and and it’s that same thing of kind of this is the story of the Son of God dying on it. It’s sort of this contrasting between you have heard it said, but I think it’s more like this. Yeah, that’s a big part of what that song is doing. Again, wrapping around worship. We don’t worship to escape.

We worship because God is doing something amazing in our midst.

Mark:

Right now.

Justin:

Right now.

Mark:

Not not for the future, but including the future.

Justin:

Which is

Mark:

yes.

Justin:

Which is his I mean, y the kingdom is a big part of your music in the new album. Like his his kingdom is a is something we talk about a lot too. His kingdom is not then later heaven. His kingdom is now. It doesn’t it’s not you know, the it’s full form, right? Like you said, the new s city of Jerusalem. Like when that comes when that whole thing happens, there will be no denying his kingdom.

Elias:

Right.

Justin:

But his kingdom never stopped.

Elias:

Right. Language of the now but not yet. It’s like we we that and that’s I guess like not to beat a dead horse at this point, but like I think that’s the reality of what we’ve talked about this whole time. It’s like the reality is you can’t d you can’t go beyond the surface of Christian uh thinking and not end up with retention really quick.

Mark:

Sure.

Elias:

Because certain fundamental things within Christianity are like the now but not yet.

We live as if

knowing it isn’t and it is.

Mark:

Sure.

Elias:

That’s like the basic Christian instruction. How does that make sense? Well it kind of does and kind of doesn’t. Like

you’re living into a realized future in the person of Jesus and in the mission and and story and and work of God in the world. And that’s that’s That’s a con that is not a simple thing. It is a beautiful thing. It is a robust thing. It’s a song we all want to hear. But if you try to break it down to ABCs, you’re going to struggle.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

That’s the thing about so much theology, right, is it’s it is meat that can only be chewed once Having matured in your faith long enough to actually have experienced the truth of that theology and then be able to look at it and go Oh oh it’s that oh oh you know

Elias:

yeah

Mark:

and that’s uh it’s that it’s that love in action You know, we we can we can become paralyzed, if you will, to a certain degree by that tension. So therefore what do I do? Well, in love I will continue to move and in God’s grace You know, he’s gonna he’s gonna overcome my failures because of who he is, but yet as I continue to strive, as I’m drawn towards him you know, in that growth, I am exhibiting my love for him and his love for me and love for others around, you know.

Elias:

Exactly. I honestly don’t and I wrestle with this, and that’s part of the

Lament

of this record, I guess.

I don’t

I don’t know how you can spend a lifetime or a decade in scripture, in theology, reading authors old and new in the church, and not come away as you get older and older in life of going, I need to be more kind than I was yesterday.

Mark:

Sure.

Elias:

I I don’t know how. And yet we have obvious examples of people doing that

in the

what did CSUS say? People uh he was talking about artists and poets, but I think it’s true of preachers a lot these days Um

people who who fall out of love with the thing and only in love with their telling of it.

Justin:

Sure.

Elias:

And I think there’s in theology and in in art, there’s

absolutely that’s a temptation for all of us who feel a creative impetus. It’s like, oh it’s it’s my role to say it so I have to come up with some new way of saying it otherwise I’m plagiarizing or whatever else. It’s like, you know, I at the end of the day I don’t know how you can spend so much time in this.

Mark:

Yeah.

Elias:

Jesus and not come away going. There are fewer hills to die on.

There are some hills.

Mark:

Sure.

Elias:

But

but there are fewer hills to die on than there were when I was 19.

And

and the result of that is that I ought to be kinder through the midst of people working it out. and kinder to people who are getting it wrong and kinder to people I mean Paul outright says, who are we to judge the world? We have enough we have enough to work on in the church.

Justin:

Sure.

Elias:

So this is it’s like I I think we’ve often got the playbook backwards where we’re like, we have the answers, we’re gonna hit you over the head with them, and we’re going to put all of the energy of the church into judging the world.

I just look at this and I think I d

Paul first of all Paul tells us outright Don’t do that. So there’s that. But then on top of the law, I was like, I don’t know how you can spend more time in this and not lead with love and kindness and mercy. I don’t I don’t see it.

Justin:

Which is beautiful. Yeah Yeah.

Mark:

No doubt.

Justin:

There’s something to uh age. There is, right?

Mark:

No doubt.

Justin:

Yeah. There’s some things you can not gain any other way, but just wait another day and then another year and then you know. Um TikTok. Tell me about TikTok. Your first of all, I love your videos. That was uh that’s what got my brain ticking about we need to get him on here because I loved your thoughts on worship’s.

Mark:

Yeah, we act we actually uh That was my first introduction to you by all means. I just said, hey, check this out. We ’cause we were talking about worship. We did a podcast on worship and what it means, you know. And yeah, so that was that was uh that was my first introduction to you, it was on tip TikTok. And it was uh yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, that might have been your first introduction to TikTok.

Mark:

Uh quite possibly. Quite possibly. Yes. Short of a pop-up here or there or something, you know, that kind of thing. But yeah, yeah.

Elias:

Yeah, no, I I um of course, I think I mentioned earlier I’ve owned a marketing agency forever and ever, so that’s a big big part of my life. Um So social media I’m very aware of and kind of trying to keep and and approach it in a healthy way as best I can. Um

I I could probably go on TikTok and Instagram and just play guitar a bunch of times.

And I do a little bit of that. But I think I also realized just

So in a lot of ways, so much of the conversation around worship is centered around commercial interest.

In other words, like the conferences are organized

by people who are own the publishing companies who write the songs.

And I’m not sh shooting this down. I’ve benefited from this, so I can’t like you know

bite the hand that feeds me, so to speak. Um

but uh it it’s it’s sort of because of how people are. tend to kind of collect around like four church groups and some association with those four church groups and I think one of the beauties of TikTok in particular, and Instagram reels in as much if they’ve copied TikTok, is that it is remarkably good. at building communities out of interest rather than just building communities out of existing communities. So Facebook and TikTok are opposites. Facebook was, here’s your group, now you can be your group

Justin:

here. Yeah

Elias:

and s and every once in a while there’d be cross-pollination, you’d maybe join a Facebook group or something like that. But Facebook was never designed to grow and create communities. Facebook algorithmically was designed to monetize communities. TikTok is the opposite. TikTok actively takes creator input and finds other people who like that input.

And so a big part of what I’ve

been trying to do is like I talk about worship a lot because I’m like, hey, look, I know I’m a I’m a weird cat in our space. I’m really into science. I’m really into like ec behavioral economics and sociology. And I’m, you know, really into theology. I’m just kind of an overthinking geek. And so like when it comes to my approach to worship, I do sometimes end up taking a position that surprises people who’ve been in this a lot. Because I’m kind of like, well I know I know that we heard that before, but A it’s not in the Bible and B science doesn’t back it up. So how are we gonna talk about this? Like this you know and I kind of try to and I don’t I not to dismiss anybody, most of the people doing worship stuff are my friends. I mean I go on and I talk to them, hang out, we have coffee. That’s that’s my life. So but I but I but I come at it from an angle of somebody who this entire time has had my foot in the world I’ve been running a company for fifteen years that’s you know selling helping someone figure out how to Find other toffee lovers.

I mean that’s a part of what I’ve been doing this whole time. And I think when you do

when you approach ministry

and faith and that sort of thing with that, you end up with a different perspective.

Justin:

Yes.

Elias:

And so like

in TikTok, I think I’ve been bringing that to the table and I’ve had it I’ve had some unique experiences, I guess, that uh have given me a a slightly different take on some things and and really Loving and encouraged uh by the response. I mean it really has been a really fast growing community for me.

Justin:

I love it. I’m pretty sure I’ve been sharing it with all kinds of people, so it’s probably just you’re you’re welcome.

Elias:

It’s just you.

Justin:

You thought it was TikTok’s algorithms

Elias:

Yeah.

Mark:

There you go. It’s just you.

Justin:

I I I want to start wrapping it up. I just have one last thing uh get your take on. Um performance versus worship, which we we talked a lot about this, and so you might not have to say that much. Um And this isn’t really related, but I’m gonna try and make it related, but uh the idea of song burnout and I know you have dealt with this more than I because you go on tour and you play the same song in the same, you know, way and Every single night. Um, I guess I’m just curious how you deal with song burnout, like what your thoughts are on that. And then how you separate performance from worship and Is performance okay? Like in that you know

Elias:

Yeah yeah yeah

Mark:

Oh no

Justin:

I just I hit the play button on my keyboard And start playing your song. So

Elias:

I’m gonna two part it. I’m gonna two part it. First of all, the performance and worship thing. Because I think one informs the other.

Justin:

Yeah. Um

Elias:

absolutely yes, performance is okay. I I don’t know how you uh as a human being

approach an activity you have done before

and not learn from what you did last time. So on some level, you will inevitably perform

when you leave worship. Inevitably. It is not going to not happen. What’s fascinating is that the word itself, performo, in Latin, is church Latin.

It’s compound Latin, and it means

form

thoroughly. So when you’re working as a builder, you get better at nailing the nail with the hammer.

When do you start out you hit your thumb, you do it The thing is

it’s completely authentic to hit your thumb with a hammer

Mark:

Sure.

Elias:

So if it’s just about authenticity in the moment as opposed to authenticity in the lived life.

Then performance is the devil.

But if authenticity is more than

that three-minute window where you’re singing that song.

But it’s instead who you are becoming, who you have been, who you are when you leave, who you are when you turn around.

If that’s what authenticity is. Right? It’s more about

living in concordance

in accordance with your values and and your desired character or your desired Persona if you will. If that’s what authenticity is, then performance is a non-issue.

Mark:

Sure.

Elias:

Because on some level The

beef between worship and performance, so to speak, is actually a beef about momentary authenticity and personality consistency.

Mark:

Sure.

Elias:

But the problem is that you go to work and you have a different working relationship with your peers than you do with your kids. And that’s good, healthy, and important.

Which one of those is the real you? Mm-hmm. So I think we have this strange cultural hang-up around authenticity that has more to do with how we’ve come to understand the word as a subtext rather than what it can has has the potential to mean in our lives, which is that we are true to our true north. True. Right?

Mark:

Yeah. It’s interesting you bring that up though, because even when we are like when we are in that true north we become more like what we call isomorphic process to where our relationships become the same and there isn’t that incongruity.

Elias:

But that is born of habit, isn’t it?

It’s born more of habit than simple choice.

Mark:

Sure.

Elias:

It’s not as simple as saying, I’m going to now and then I do. We all know, you guys working with CR, you know full well

that is not how it works

Desire alone? Desire matters, but desire alone does not answer the question.

Mark:

Sure.

Elias:

Hab

habit matters. And so

to that end, um one of the best pieces of advice I ever heard on performance uh

was in an article, an interview with a classic female singer, I think from the fifties to sixties kind of thing, and they were saying the same question.

How do you show up every day and sing the song like it matters? Right? I think in my mind

There’s two things that play out.

One, the worship leader and the congregant have utterly different lives. You are not showing up on Sunday as a mom of five. And ready to go. Step one. So worship readers lead with their banger all the time. It’s a huge mistake.

The first two songs, all you’re doing at best is getting everybody comfortable.

That’s it. If you expect more than that in the first two songs, good luck to you, sir. But it’s

those first two songs are trying to get mom to stop feeling guilty for squatting the kid on the bet to get out the door. Like that’s That’s you know

just human life, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Elias:

And so on some level, that what this singer was talking about was like so much of what needs to happen

is in the moment. Taking on the emotion of the song by making it real to you.

So maybe if there’s some emotional quality, the song is sad or bittersweet. You think about a moment in your life where that was true in your life. And that emotion is what you bring forward. So it’s not an inauthentic pretending, which is what bad performance is.

Mark:

Sure.

Elias:

It’s an authentic becoming Which allows us to connect at a very human healthy spiritual level. So when it comes to song burnout The exact same thing is true. There’s a point where it’s about the song, where the performance is about the performance.

The performance is about my expression. That’s fine. It’s not to say that that’s always evil.

I think that can be really rewarding and and and encouraging at times. But if that eventually gives way to the moment being about the the shared moment or the moment being about the guy at the back of the room. And somewhere in the first year, maybe 2010 Manifesto became about the guy at the back of the room for me.

Mark:

Sure.

Elias:

That guy is always there. There’s never a time where we play Manifesto where that guy isn’t there. There’s never a time where the guy in the middle of the room isn’t like, oh yeah, and they come alive. And I’ll I’ll play that song until I die with no shame because it’s not a

I do not care about the song anymore

I do not care. It is 100% about the moment that we have together

and all that that does in us and through us for when we leave. And I I’m shameless about it. I don’t care. I don’t want to over-spiritualize song selection.

It can matter at times. It can be a big thing. I think we sometimes make too much of this in terms of like

God is telling me this song needs to happen. Maybe I mean, you know, most Christians prayed the same liturgy for like a thousand years, so unless we just thought that the church forgot how to be Christian, you know, forgot everything it ever learned, even in the Reformation

In reality,

at some point, like

there’s something to consistency, there’s something to repetition, there’s something to

knowing that the goal is a beautiful life, and that those beautiful moments

But those beautiful moments fuel a beautiful life lived in Jesus.

And so

performance and songs and songs of prayers. I mean you know what the Orthodox Church has been praying the Jesus prayer over and over and over every day forever.

So you know I think on some level I can be okay

You know, this

um have you guys heard of uh James K. A. Smith is an author. Uh he he wrote a book called Desiring the Kingdom and Imagining the Kingdom.

The pop version of that is called This Is Uh You Are What You Love. It’s

talking about how

human beings are not fundamentally thinkers, but are fundamentally lovers.

Right?

And how all of these little routines that we do shape what we love. They shape what we’re pointed towards. They shape how we’re gonna do

it. And he talks a little bit about habit in that. In that like i if the only time brushing your teeth worked

Was when you were focused on brushing your teeth.

Justin:

That’s good.

Elias:

Right?

Mark:

Right.

Elias:

It doesn’t

Sometimes you brush your teeth because you just need to have clean teeth.

Mark:

Sure.

Elias:

And so I I think sometimes in our obsession with momentary authenticity, we sort of

Act as if there is something to be said too for showing up and being present to the activity.

That’s important.

But it’s not as simple as saying like, oh no, you should be riddled with guilt if You’re singing the song this time and you’re worried about the argument you just had. I mean I think there’s something to on Twin doesn’t

happen all the time

My kids would be going to bed. Maybe my wife and I, you know,

maybe every couple of months we get on the phone because I’ve been away a lot and we’re a little snippy at each other or something. Right before I’m supposed to take the stage. Right.

So if momentary authenticity was the thing I was supposed to be concerned about, the entire show would be railroaded and I’d be treating the room as my personal therapists. I am not in the headspace having, you know, us having had a little bickering

snit

five minutes earlier. I’m not in the headspace to

but that that’s just selfishness.

Justin:

Yeah.

Elias:

And and so

stepping into the role for a moment

to love and serve the room and put things in their right place and sort out this other thing in my life in a in its right context in a healthy way. I think that’s just healthy emotion

that’s just emotional health on some level.

Justin:

Yeah.

Elias:

You know

And so I think

I think, you know , a little bit of compartmentalization is normal and healthy in and and every therapist I’ve ever been to has said that too. Like there is a little bit of that that is Normal. Good.

So I I feel like we have a few of these hang

ups

as worship leaders. Um

that the average person going to work doesn’t have

Justin:

Yeah.

Elias:

And

they they’re they’re not like going to work and going, well, I can’t show up for work today

because if this thing happened, I can’t nope, sorry, I had this this fight with my kid and so I’m calling in sick for the next 14

days.

Like most

people don’t have that option.

Justin:

Yeah. So

Elias:

sometimes I wonder why do we think we do? You know

Mark:

No doubt.

Justin:

That’s good. You’re uh Megan will be happy to hear your answer and put me in my place. So now I I’ve known all this stuff to be true, it’s just I struggle with song burnout. I struggle with caring and I really care about the new songs and I’m into it and I’m passionate about And then I’m done with it. And

Elias:

Yeah, well and I think for me songs aren’t the thing.

Justin:

Right. And that’s what I I have to learn. And that’s what she’s got down. She’s everything you said, she said in one way or another. That’s why sorry, she’s my favorite over you. Just kidding. Um but yeah, I think that’s always been my struggle is like Well the emotional intelligence, right? It’s it’s that idea of this isn’t about me and I still haven’t figured that out. And I try. I try.

Elias:

I mean, I don’t want to pretend like I’m an expert at this. I’m in the same boat. I think I think there’s a live performance coach named Tom Jackson years ago who sort of pointed out

even in concerts, even if you’re not talking about this is talking about the strict technicality of music and doing music well, right?

That nobody remembers your song.

They remember the moment you made of the song.

And the re part of the reason,

I see this as a guy in it.

Nobody shoot me.

Part of the reason part of the reason that worship leaders are so obsessed with songs

is because that was the only way

companies could monetize worship. It is the publishing engine that drives us to be concerned with songs. Because that’s the only part of it that can be sold.

Justin:

Yeah.

Elias:

And so like and I sell things for a living. I’m not trying to be cynical about it. It’s not like there’s no role in that.

But we need to see it for what it is in order to do it healthily.

Mark:

Sure.

Elias:

And so I think there’s really something to like, hey, you know what? The song is a means to an end. And that end is a moment

of shared Prayer forms us in the long run. And probably

repetition

plays a way bigger role than we are wanting to admit in what that is.

Justin:

Thank you. Thank you for the hand slip.

Elias:

I did not need it that way.

Mark:

Hey, if you need it, you need it though. Come on now. It’s okay.

Justin:

I’m just messing.

Mark:

No

Justin:

Well, we don’t want to keep you all day well, I would keep you all day, but I know Mark doesn’t want to keep you all day and you don’t want to be kept all day, so

Elias:

this is great. This is a lot of fun.

Justin:

Yeah, this is

Mark:

Well know that we appreciate your time and you and your wisdom. Thank you so much. And like you say, I uh I didn’t I hope I didn’t offend you in that process of steeping. I’m just recognizing that I’m not as musically inclined but yet I have I desire to live a life of worship either way. And so that’s uh yeah that’s where it comes from. I should have s probably said it more from a musical standpoint, but

Elias:

No, no, no, I think I think it’s spot on. I’m not offended in the slightest.

Mark:

Well no that I we I we appreciate the time you have uh you have given us. It’s been a pleasure.

Justin:

And sharing how you see it, because it’s amazing.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah It’s a great thing.

Elias:

Thank you, guys. Appreciate you both. This has been tons of fun.

Mark:

Well we’re we’re glad to have had you on the on the podcast. Alright, so so uh Justin will Justin will definitely send you a link when we release so you can uh you can listen to what you uh what you share.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot click Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.