Mark:

Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization. through thoughtful conversations.

Troy:

And yeah. A lot of smart people go the best way to ha make the most impact is to have a laser focus.

Mark:

Yeah.

Troy:

Find your whatever it is, focus on that. And I admire people who can do that. I’ve always struggled. Uh I have a little ADHD in my life. I I’ve struggled to have the kind of like all I do is prepare sermons. Well, I find that I prepare sermons better when I’ve got a little when I’ve got a story to tell from a vacation I took, from something that happened at the smokehouse, from coaching my son’s football team I don’t know. I just somehow my life works better. I have more joy. Um get to share my faith more when when that have that dynamic at play. I don’t know if you’ve experienced that, but I seem to do better. I I think there’s a point where you get too many uh plates you’re spinning. But if you can find the few things you’re good at and and you know it and make money on them and have joy and get a free meal to smokehouse. I mean, like, you know, there’s some blessings of what you do as a carpenter that wow. I mean

like you’re building your own home right now and like Uh yeah, that’s that’s a huge blessing that most of us can’t do. You know?

Mark:

Yeah, that’s good. Um I

all have our blessings.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

That’s for sure. It’s fine in the

Justin:

like I I know how to uh break podcast painting bringing the

third method.

Not everyone can do that.

Mark:

But you know how to paint in addition to all that technology.

Troy:

Nobody hates painting. Don’t bring up painting.

Justin:

Yeah.

Troy:

Well if this podcast thing doesn’t work out. You always have a fallback.

Mark:

You always have a fallback. I got a place you can start.

Justin:

I would rather do weddings. I guess my question I I have a question for you or um some advice I’d like for you to offer potentially for guys in their early twenties.

Troy:

Wow.

Justin:

You know, to think about your that part of your life, that part of my life, you remember m me going through that to transition to painting and what’s next and whatever. Um like how do you convince them that failure is not only acceptable

Troy:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um, but almost required and also great, right? Like how do you convince them that that this is part of your life that you should embrace? And it’s not gonna you’re you’re not gonna become you’re not gonna shrink into a little man child, uh you know, your ego’s gonna completely be destroyed. You know what I mean? ‘Cause we’re so We’re so precious in that age.

Mark:

And if I may, to add to that, even as you would speak to one of your own children, I’m thinking of you

Troy:

No, that’s exactly what I thought when he mentioned that is I just had a conversation with Cameron. My son is 22 and is gainfully employed now. He lives on his own. Matter of fact, he was so excited. He called me and he closed on a so he does timber acquisition. Somebody owns a hundred acres. He goes, Hey, we’ll uh cut the trees, the mature pines off your property and and their company uh has loggers takes them to the sawmill and they make a profit, you know, between what they pay that landowner and what the sawmill pays them and he’s getting he you know he makes a a cut off of that. And he’s done really well. Um as, you know, somebody in his early twenties making more money than I ever made in my twenties. And so but but I can see he’s got a little bit of his dad in him And he’s like, you know, dad, um, I I enjoy this. Don’t know if I want to do it forever, uh, want to do it different than what he’s seeing it. So he’s he’s processing all those things with me. And my advice to him was I love the thoughts you’re having because he’s like, because he lives in Wilson, North Carolina. Dad, there’s no good brisket in Wilson Can we do a smokehouse and well, you know, like so the my advice I gave to him was, look, you’re learning a lot because he has a couple of bosses who’ve been in the industry for years. One’s a great Christian man and he’s learning life skills, not just login skills from him. So I’m like, stay where you are. Stay at this commission level where you are because he he’s talking about getting less of the health insurance and truck and stuff they provide. and go in full commission. I’m like, stay where you are, do what you’re doing for a couple years. And and then um let’s talk about you scratching that entrepreneurial itch of you know whatever that looks like because I think at that age you know there’s just so much Man, I just guys who come into the smokehouse and in their 20s and and there are freaks of nature who are in their 20s that can start billion-dollar companies But most of us in our 20s think we know it all and we know nothing. I mean, I know when I became a pastor, oh, I wish I’d have just Shut up for the first five years and just listen to people who’ve been there like just learn, make mistakes, say dumb things in sermons, apologize for them and learn from that deal Write it down. You know, one of my favorite quotes, Dawson Trotman ‘s thoughts disentangle themselves when they pass through the lips and the fingertips So write when there’s stuff’s foggy, write it down. Write down when you learn, you know, when you make a mistake, you know, journal that. Learn as much as you can. Listen as much as you can I think there’s a reason Jesus is perfect and he began his ministry at 30. You know, like there we just they just gain life experience and um So it’s yeah work for somebody make mistakes try things Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think it’s tough even, you know, from from that in that era when you think about it, and I think it’s tougher than it was for you and I, even, because there are there is so much media. Nothing against that, but you know, there is this ability to compare myself, you know, with so many of the other freaks of nature, as you put it. You know, it’s like, well, where’s mine? You know, how come I’m not doing that?

Troy:

Yeah.

Mark:

And you know, I think that pressure, you know,

Troy:

that’s a great point.

Mark:

Is is so much higher than it was.

Troy:

One of the curses I had as a young pastor. uh you learn a lot at a church conference, but you go to a church conference and the guy on stage is the pastor who pastors a church of twenty thousand people, he’s written five books and has an amazing marriage and he has a podcast and and you’re like, gosh, I’m an idiot. You know, and well no, your your church is doing good, you’re reaching people, lives are being changed, but you just compared yourself to that guy who’s got incredible gifts and you know learn from him but don’t compare yourself to him. And it’s just, you know, Malcolm Gladwell’s Outliers was so such a great read because uh you you learned, you know, it takes ten thousand hours of uh to to be an expert in it. But you know, Steve Jobs and Bill Gates and Michael Jordan and some of those outliers, they just happen to be at the right place at the right time. They worked hard. They became a excellent in their field. But there’s a lot of it just it’s just God’s grace. Like

I mean

there’s pastors who are better preachers than me, but who are not in Brunswick County or they’re not experiencing, you know, we had 1,200 people there Sunday. They’re, they’re a better preacher, better leader than me, and they’re pastoring a church of 200 I mean, I happen to be in a county that’s growing really fast. Not as fast as some. Some church, you know, like so it just, man. Bloom where you planted. Be content with what God’s given you. And that’s, I think, something I’ve learned as a 53-year-old man now. That I’m trying to practice more than I ever have in my life. Just waking up in the morning, getting my journal out, starting the day, just thank you, thank you, thank you, Lord, for just naming my blessings That gratitude is so huge if we can be grateful for what we have and what we instead of staring at what we don’t have, we’re just grateful for what we have. It’s pretty incredible um what it does to our level of joy and contentment.

Mark:

No doubt. Yeah.

Justin:

I think there’s a big aspect to that that’s just maturity and and time and experience and and seeing, you know, s getting through the twenties. You know, it worked out. Um I think that brings some of that perspective. I th I still think, you know, being in that age group, like like Cameron was saying, there’s a hunger, there’s an itch. And it’s like, you tell me to just don’t be hungry or don’t, you know put sal over that itch will be just fine.

It’s like

it’s not working. You know what I mean? But it but yeah I think your advice is is so good in that. I I I there there’s this uh fear, I think, when you’re in that age group that this is the time I have to build the thing that will be my life. And if I miss it now, the opportunities will be gone. So by the time I’m 30, I’ll be a painter the rest of my life. Just kind of going back to my life. Like if I don’t If I don’t figure this out right now, I will forever be a painter. And that’s the last thing on this planet I want to do. So I gotta get out as soon as possible.

Troy:

Yeah.

Justin:

And it’s just that’s not the truth. And what I

Troy:

Colonel Sanders Started KFC in his

Justin:

industry.

Troy:

Yeah. KFC in his, was it sixties?

Mark:

So definitely late in life.

Troy:

Yeah, late in life. Steve Jobs.

Mark:

something like that.

Troy:

Uh started Apple, got fired from Apple, came back. His second run was way better than his yeah. You know, I mean just so many stories like that.

Justin:

Yeah, and just my own personal life. Like I did paint and then eventually moved out of that and You know, that was due to some grace, some timing and the economy in 2008 say saying people don’t need to paint their houses much anymore, you know. forced a transition and I guess all that to say I didn’t have to do voodoo to get out of that. Like it just worked out. And then you look at any number of guys who are past twenty and usually it worked out, right? And I think there’s just I don’t know. I think that’s one of the things I would like to you know encourage that group is just Chill. It’s gonna be okay, you know.

Troy:

What I love I love your your approach to. It’s I mean it’s the same as my approach in the restaurant. it was like a lateral entry. You know, you painted, but you you taught yourself website development. You you didn’t go you don’t have a degree in what you do for a living. Like you uh just started doing it. And in your part-time, you know, need to make some extra money. Okay, try this out.

Justin:

Yeah.

Troy:

You might like it than your better than your full-time job, you know, and eventually you work your way into that.

Justin:

Yeah.

Troy:

Uh that’s a that’s a cool thing to do.

Justin:

In referencing your 10,000 hours thing, you can build 10,000 hours at in your hobby time.

Troy:

Yes.

Justin:

You know what I mean?

Troy:

Oh yeah.

Justin:

So and that was one of the advice that one a good friend of mine gave Dave Pelletti actually. He’s like, you know, if you spend two hours a day for two years, you can become an expert in something. He read that from some quote somewhere.

Troy:

Oh yeah.

Justin:

Oh, interesting. You know, I’m painting, but if I just spend an hour at night, you know, learning more and more about web development or whatever. I could be an expert in two years. I’m like, all right, let’s do that. Um that was uh I don’t know, for some reason that stuck

stuck out to me and was a pretty big motivator, but it’s true, like you can build those 10,000 hours to become that outlier. While you know a a in your hobby time, in your extracurricular time, especially in your twenties when you have so much energy

Troy:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um do the thing that you you’re that’s safe right now, but also spend that hobby time, you know, figuring out the next thing and that’s that’s a great thing too.

Mark:

When did you learn to play the guitar, come to think of it? You weren’t

Justin:

Late 20s, yeah, like 28, 29. This is when I started

Mark:

virtual worship leader right now.

Justin:

Virtual.

Mark:

Virtual.

Troy:

You’re a late bloomer, man. Guitar , web , I mean all that as an adult.

Justin:

Yeah, and I think that’s kind of Oh yeah, I I guess a passion topic for me because I was I thought I missed the boat, you know what I mean?

Troy:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I had all I don’t know So yeah, I think I think that’s kind of what I’m saying. It’s like that’s there’s never a point. I also read something really interesting that within any given lifetime, you have basically three or four careers you could build.

Troy:

Oh yeah.

Justin:

You know, and I thought, I’m like, really? That’s an amazing thought. Because we we grew up in culture and in in the our families before ours where it’s like Like you were a farmer and you were a farmer from the day you were born to the day you died. Or you went to college and then you were an accountant from that point. You know, it’s just like this is what you you do.

Troy:

Yeah.

Justin:

And um

that’s not actually true. Like you there’s enough time in your life to do many things. And so you can build this career in like what you are seeing and what I experienced with painting is You are building skills and learning things in this particular thing that will transfer.

Troy:

So true.

Justin:

Right? So you’re you’re building a cur your career over here. The next one you’re doing while you’re doing this one because the skills and the the values that you learn through that are are transferable to the next thing. And uh like you said, uh you preach better when you have some a story from the smokehouse. I also argue, you know, you do web development better when you got some values from painting houses.

You know what I mean?

Like in in my life that’s been true. Um anyway.

Troy:

Yeah, no, it’s good.

Justin:

Have you ever heard the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast?

Troy:

Oh yes, I have. I listened to most of them.

Justin:

Did you?

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Well that’s great. I would love to hear your thoughts on it.

Troy:

Um okay.

Justin:

It’s very broad question, but I am curious.

Troy:

Yeah, no, it’s good it’s good. Uh the there was a little bit of uh fun guilt because it’s church gossip, you know. So like I was like a little bit like, should I be listening to this? You know? Because I I hate it when If there’s problems at Generations Church and people, you know, instead of talking to people, they talk about people. And I felt like there was a little bit of that going on. uh ’cause it was just air in all of Mark Driscoll’s dirty laundry. But at the same time I thought I was glad I listened to it and uh I didn’t listen to all of them. I there maybe a few new ones that I don’t have to listen to. ‘Cause I would listen a in a while, but um but I I it is one of those podcasts you walk away and you were like you thought about it a lot afterwards and you’re like, okay, is there any of that at Generations Church or in my life? that would cause me to go down that road because clearly Mark Driscoll brilliant. Like we’re doing a series in Ruth right now at Generations and And I remember when I first studied Ruth, I used some of Mark Driscoll’s commentary or notes. Like I used to listen to him occasionally because he was funny. He was spoke with such uh authority. Like you just believe what he said and and then when you hear the stories of the way he led and what was going on behind the scenes. It was like, whoa, you know? And so there was definitely, I was really glad uh there’s accountability at Generations Church. So glad that people feel the freedom to tell me when I’m being an idiot. My wife probably being the number one person, but there’s others as well who Uh I mean I think either one of you guys, if you saw me behaving in a certain way, you would you’d pull me beside pull me aside behind closed door and say, I saw something, I heard something, it bothered me. Matter of fact, you’ve done that to me on a couple of different occasions. Thanks, Justin.

Um but but it

but I think those conversations keep us from going from having a Mars Hill podcast, you know, where um there’s just crazy stuff going on and it’s so weird, man. Like The thing about Mark Driscoll, I thought about Elephant Room. I don’t know if you guys ever saw the Elephant Room. It was put on by James McDonald. It was amazing. time because we had a this panel of brilliant pastors who were they were just throughout a topic or a question and they would answer it.

Justin:

It was like the elephant in the room type of topic, right?

Troy:

Exactly.

Justin:

Okay.

Troy:

So James McDonald hosted and it was Mark Driscoll was one of the panel, Perry Noble. Um Let me see, uh Matt Chandler.

Justin:

Hybels?

Troy:

Really? No, there’s like there was two or three others, but about half of the pastors who were on the panel have now either resigned And and Chandler, his is a temporary. He’s coming back. I love Matt Chandler, but he’s a village church. But Driscoll’s like, you know, Marshill podcast. Perry Noble, wow, and he’s a pastor now again, thank God. But but you know, just like had those um what in the world happened? And and you could definitely sense just watching them, because they’re all very smart guys, there was a little bit of arrogance there. And I think that’s probably the biggest challenge that those pastors at that you know level with a mega church and they’re almost a celebrity pastor. Is there a check on that pride? Is there somebody in your life holding you accountable, just reminding you that you’re not Jesus, you follow him? So um it was good. Um I mean I don’t know if there’s specifics you want to talk about in the podcast because it you know there’s I don’t know seven or eight of them but It was just that’s the thing that got me was man nobody’s in the room with Driscoll saying, dude, um what in the world? I can’t believe you said that. You did that. And Basically anybody who would do that, he got rid of them. And that that should have been the red flag right there. Because people left But the church was growing. Money was still coming in. All you know the the era was going

Justin:

Yeah. Mark, how dare you

Troy:

the Lord?

Justin:

Look at the zero, it’s up and to the right.

Troy:

Yeah, yeah. So

Justin:

the results.

Troy:

Yeah, the results, yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, I that’s good, yeah. I d I when I hear that podcast, it definitely makes me think of I I think you’ve read uh some books about kind of Germany before Hitler, right? And kind of the culture that was there in it. Sadly, kind of reminds me of that in the sense of like Well, you know, this see the results, see what’s happening, and and and kind of how easily we start to boil, you know. ‘Cause we’re a frog, right, in that in that water. And it’s net I don’t know, I think that was the sobering takeaway for me is that we’re you look at it and go, How crazy is that? They didn’t have anyone to hold them like why didn’t they just see the red flags and speak up and I don’t think it’s for personally that simple. I think it’s complicated in that when you are in an atmosphere and it that it starts one way and continues to uh slowly boil get hotter and hotter and hotter you don’t necessarily know you’re in boiling water. And people from outside go, hey, just so you know you’re in boiling water. You’re like Uh no, because look at the results or whatever, you know, whatever it is. And I think I I guess my takeaway from that was None of us are that far from that.

Troy:

No.

Justin:

It takes the right circumstances and the right person and leadership, you know, whether I’m that person and I end up be you know, being that prideful and arrogant, or I’m a person in that atmosphere is like, I want to ride this tr this train, right? Like

hop on and ride this thing to the sunset. You know what I mean? It’s n we’re not that far from that.

Troy:

We’re not and and I think with extremely gifted people like a Mark Durster, like an Alda Adolf Hitler, who had this incredible b ability to inflame the masses who had this oratory uh about him that it’s easy to get lost in that haze and to ignore the chinks in the armor because you see the the progress, you see the and you know, Hitler was his first couple of years you saw, I mean obviously his hatred for Jews, whatever, but like the but but even his bad decision making, you saw him the couple first couple of years, but he was undefeated So he ignored, he began to ignore his his uh military advisors. got rid of the ones who opposed him so that when he made the stupid mistakes, because the dude had Europe and I mean it was his But he made the stupid mistake, let’s go invade Russia. Let’s inv fight this two front war. There was nobody around him left to go, that’s a dumb idea, because he’d already gotten rid of them. And so um defeat was inevitable. And I think Driscoll, you kind of see the same thing. Like when you get rid of all the people who disagree with you.

Justin:

Yeah.

Troy:

Uh defeat is on the way.

Mark:

Yeah.

Troy:

It really will. It really will. Yeah. Yeah. That’s right.

Mark:

It’s interesting as you were thinking about that too. I’m even thinking about like Joss Maxwell the The Law of the Lid.

Troy:

Oh yeah.

Mark:

You know, and I’m thinking about how sometimes it’s like those people who are best able to influence us

will

sometimes even by attrition get frustrated with the fact that that lid is there and they go other places.

Troy:

They do.

Mark:

And we lose that good influence.

Troy:

Yeah, that’s right.

Mark:

But th of those people who can talk to us at that point. And I think it’s a yeah, that it kind of It pairs with that arrogance that, you know, I I need to be, I’m I know it all, and I don’t have that ability to even accept those influence from people that are close to me.

Troy:

So Uh you make a great point. And I think about to go back to football.

Justin:

Yes.

Troy:

Um Tom Brady. You know, when he was with Bill Belichick There was a constant conflict we know now, you know, we hear the that just you know this but there was a ten run ten year dynasty that came from that conflict. Sure. You see it in sports. You know, when LeBron goes and makes his own team and you know, picks his own players, the Lakers aren’t very good. Like we seem to do better when there’s conflict, when there’s somebody Looking us in the eyes going, you know, your crap does stink. And here here’s why. And we we we just do better and um live life better and It’s hard at the time because nobody likes to be rebuked, but I think we’re we’re a lot more successful in life and

Mark:

Well I think even that comes with age. You know, I think in our culture we’re so conflict averse.

Troy:

Yes.

Mark:

You know?

Troy:

Yes.

Mark:

And we don’t recognize that, oh no, there’s a tremendous amount of learning.

Troy:

Yeah

Mark:

that goes along with each conflict. Not only just for me personally, but we learn from each other in that conflict. We talk about conflict builds intimacy. You know, and when we’re in conflict, I get to know where you’re coming from.

Troy:

Yeah.

Mark:

And it’s important to me at that point.

Troy:

Right.

Mark:

And because I’m engaging in that. And I want to know. But in that arrogance, I think our tendency can be, who are you to question me? And no, I don’t frankly care to know.

Troy:

Yeah.

Mark:

And you know, and you can go your way and I’ll go mine. And I think that’s when we miss out.

Troy:

Yeah, that’s right.

Mark:

I think so often that’s where we it leads to that, you know. but that polar opposition is we don’t care enough to stay involved in the conflict to be able to say, okay, yeah, help me understand that.

Troy:

Yeah. Yeah, Galatians, um, just you know, reading recently, Paul, I mean this is Peter, the rock, you know, like stuff, you know, preach the sermon of Pentecost.

Mark:

Yep.

Troy:

And Paul just rebuked him. And from that beautiful rebuke came the New Testament understanding of grace.

Mark:

Sure.

Troy:

That, you know, okay, we don’t obey the law to make ourselves righteous. We trust Christ and He makes us righteous. And that just so many good things happen from conflict.

Mark:

No doubt.

Troy:

And from rebukes and from

Mark:

yeah

Justin:

I I think there’s a probably an interesting factor that I’d love to h hear a study about with people like that in the sense of fear of conflict. I look at Tom Brady and Bill Belichick and I don’t see lack of confidence. I see inherent confidence and Maybe they had upbringing similar to yours where they didn’t you know, they just kinda had that built into them.

Troy:

Yeah.

Justin:

Or they built it some way or another, but at this stage, at the point where they came together There was something in them that said, if he disagrees with me, it doesn’t lessen who I am. Does that make sense? Where I look at like a Mark Driscoll and I feel like I see like you mentioned chinks in the armor. I feel like his persona was built on top of an insecurity.

Troy:

Yes.

Justin:

Right? And I feel like I struggle with that. I struggle with insecurity. I didn’t have an upbringing similar to yours and I struggled I still struggle with confidence. So

when conflict comes and someone disagrees with me, it

it gets all the way into that core, like you’re not good enough or whatever.

And I you know, I fight that and that’s that’s part of my journey, right?

Troy:

Yeah.

Justin:

But I think about being in those same atmospheres with someone like Bill Belichick or

whatever.

And I think it would be very d I think I’d move on. I don’t think I could handle that kind of conflict because it would erode at that inner self And I think of someone like Mark Driscoll, and if it were me, I listening to that podcast, there’s a lot of if were me, maybe I’d do the same thing.

Troy:

Sure.

Justin:

Because when someone uh you know question the way I’m doing things, it would hurt my feelings. And I go, well look at the results.

Troy:

And I don’t care what you

Justin:

I could totally see from my perspective how you get there. So I do wonder if there’s something about uh that insecurity aspect. And I also, you know, um

I think there’s positives in in

Troy:

there and there’s a there’s a with insecurity, when you get the positive affirmations, it unfortunately feeds that insecurity in an unhealthy way. And a guy like Mark Driscoll grows a church of ten thousand. I mean I I know just from standing in the lobby, uh I get Some people, you know, think Troy Knott is the most amazing, you know, like I get those and I and I have to uh process that in the right way. It’s very encouraging. It feels so good to me because I just poured my heart out in a sermon. So my cup is empty So that encouragement fills my cup, but I can’t believe everything I hear. And I think probably Mark Driscoll believed everything he heard at some point or at least too much of the you’re amazing Mark this church is growing because of you And I can see Mark sitting in his study going, who do they think they are opposing me? This church is growing because of my great preaching. And he’s kind of got a point, but that doesn’t justify you shutting down everybody who said, you know, something’s wrong here. So Yeah, it’s oh man, our flesh is weak.

Justin:

Yeah.

Troy:

And we just have to just stay so close. That’s why the best thing we can do every single morning, get that cup of coffee and get that Bible. And go, okay, Holy Spirit, I’m listening. Because God will rebuke us quicker than anything else. He’ll He’ll remind us of that person we need to go and apologize to He’ll remind us of some conversation where we said something stupid if we just stay connected to him. Um, so so important.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, that’s really good. And I think there’s a there’s a difference between getting that journal out and saying, God, you won’t believe what happened to me today. Someone said I you know did this thing wrong and you need to rebuke them or whatever versus saying, you know like David, you know, show me my heart. You know. Reveal any wicked way in me. You know, like and I because I think even that formula of g sitting down with a cup of coffee and your Bible in a journal can result in still a Mark Driscoll thing if you’re if you treat God as your ally instead of God.

Troy:

Yeah.

Justin:

Instead of the creator of the universe who n who who allows you to be in his presence.

Troy:

Yes.

Justin:

You treat ’em as like, you know, I I’m kinda the your front man, you know what I mean? Like I’m out here and you’re kind of behind me supporting me by pulling all these strings.

Troy:

Yes.

Justin:

Right? Because we we naturally gravitate towards putting us in the center of the universe. And Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit are there to support that.

Troy:

Yeah.

Justin:

And

Troy:

Yeah, I know. Yeah. I’m with you.

Justin:

Yeah.

Troy:

Been been reading some Wayne Grutham lately and some just some doctrine. Um and it was reading about God’s independence.

Justin:

Right after the election viewing, just like

Troy:

keeping it keeping it real interesting. That’s right. No, uh, but reading God’s independence, um, what an amazing doctrine. So a lot of people think, you know, God created us because he needs us, like he’s lonely or something. No, God doesn’t need anything. He is completely independent, self-sufficient in himself, needs no But God made us because he chose to love us. My values is found not in that I’m needed by God, but that God values me. God chose me. And God, even though he’s independent, he wants a relationship with me, doesn’t need it, wants it. And I think our view of God In the way we are our theology of God, his sovereignty, his independence, his etern his eternality, his immutability doesn’t change. Those things affect our lives and the way we make decisions. Um we’re doing a s a series next year. about God, God is, or you know, something like that. Just kind of talking about some of those attributes of God.

Justin:

That’s awesome.

Troy:

Yeah.

Mark:

I was thinking about it even in that context though as you to think about past, you know, or we’re going through Ruth now, and you know, you’ve talked about the influence. of Tab in your life. Can you speak to that part for you even about like women in leadership and how you’ve personally wrestled with that even as a pastor?

Troy:

Yeah.

Mark:

‘Cause I’m thinking it it really kinda connects in so many ways of how, you know, I do believe, you know, it’s the the two becoming one, it’s it’s half you know, Tab offers you half of God’s brain. Speak to that as a husband, as a as a as a father of a daughter, you know, growing up. Talk to that from your perspective, how you find that balance.

Troy:

Well I think definitely a marriage is uh part of the reason we do it is because we become better when we’re connected to that person. We’re better together than we are individually. And I know we say that sometimes, but I think it’s really true. I’m definitely a better human being. Not just because my physical needs are fulfilled or whatever, but beyond that, like the perspective that Tab brings to my life. um the the the wisdom and gosh it’s hard because I’ll I’ll meet people occasionally at generations who are coming by themselves Their spouse doesn’t come, uh, or maybe they attend a different church, but a lot of times they just don’t come at all. And that’s gotta be really hard because that oneness that we have, part of it is a spiritual oneness. She makes me better, a better follower of Christ because of that. So I don’t know if that answers your question about leadership.

Mark:

I’m just and I guess that’s where I’m coming from. You know, when when I think about it from my perspective, you know, I think about my daughter, Lizzie, you know, growing up and having this this career path, and I’m thinking about it in that context of you know, should she be a pastor? Should she go into psychology? You know, and I’m thinking about this, and I’m thinking about it even from generations. and how you develop that female aspect of leadership because I think it’s easy, if I may say, to bring people around me who are like me, you know, in leadership. And sometimes I might tend to ostracize those who are different from me. And I think that can impact from a female dynamic as well because there is such a difference. And speak to that how you w word coercion wrestle with including that.

Troy:

Yeah, I I mean I think um I didn’t at generations I didn’t go out and go, we need more women on staff. For for me it’s always been it’s interesting like A seminary degree will not help you get a job at Generations Church on staff.

Mark:

Sure.

Troy:

Like I’ve always looked for a great volunteer who’s very fruitful. who’s got a great administrative abilities, who is a team builder, who recruits people. You know, that’s that’s the The DNA I’m looking for, sometimes it happens to be a woman. Sometimes it happens to be a man. It’s pretty cool that as I sit in a staff meeting at the church, that we have a good mix of both. And so we get a good because if it’s just men, you know, we’re farting and burping and we’re you know, telling we’re talking about football half the time or w you know, whatever, like we’ll do ministry, but it’ll just take a different um uh flavor than if it’s you know you have women in the room. You’re you’re a little more careful in what you say and and you get a perspective that’s probably a little more compassionate. You see some of uh uh uh the ladies in the room and some of their gifts and um although it’s weird like you see men and women changing a lot today and the the way they interact but um but it’s Yeah, I mean it definitely adds two generations. Um now there’s all kinds of theology about women ministry. I don’t know if you want to get into that, but um but I think it you know at our church it’s definitely uh um you know uh definitely a place where you can thrive as a man or a woman and yeah and uh hopefully Lizzie will if she senses God calling her to that I think it’s a great time to be a woman in ministry. In America, there’s lots of opportunities to do that. I I’m not sure a senior, if she aspires to be a senior pastor, a lead pastor at a church. In my theology, there’s probably some limitations there, but Everywhere else, I I mean I think.

Mark:

Yeah. And I and I think that’s part of it because I in in my family I have many strong females who are lead pastors.

Troy:

Okay.

Mark:

You know, who is, and therefore, you know, I have to recognize, okay. as my daughter, she’s gonna see that influence.

Troy:

Yes.

Mark:

And she’s gonna experience that. And you know, and you know, she’s also grown up in generations to where she hasn’t necessarily seen that the same way I have. Whereas I grew up with some, you know, women leading in ministry.

Troy:

Yeah.

Mark:

And, you know, and I it’s it’s it’s been it’s typically makes for an interesting conversation between the two of us. As her father, I desire for her to be all that God is calling her to be.

Troy:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and and so it makes, and that’s where I come from, you know, even as you have Carly, you know, whether she, you know, follows in a ministry. dynamics.

Troy:

She aspires to, yes.

Mark:

Yeah. And I’m I’d be interested even to, you know, how would how would you caution her or even possibly say, well, I’m not sure I agree with that view for you based on what I see as a possible limitation, scriptural limitation. Can you speak to it?

Troy:

Well, I I think there’s all kinds of books. If I was gonna tell her I’d say, Carly, read these three books and there’s so all across the board, different perspectives on how they in interpret first Timothy two.

Mark:

Sure.

Troy:

Woman shall not speak or usurp authority over a man in the church. Some interpret that as some um would say a woman could speak in the church or teet teach but not be a senior pastor and others go no it’s wide open or whatever different perspectives and so I would you know encourage her to read those I I think just in terms of just like a woman being on staff, the number one thing that I think like a church like generations, I’ll say our church like ours. Number one thing on a staff for me, a staff member, is they are are they an equipper. If you’re on staff of generations, I don’t want you doing ministry. I want you equipping other people to do ministry. So the best staff members we have are those who are constantly recruiting, training, pouring their life into our volunteers so they can do the work of the ministry. And those are the ones, and honestly, probably on our staff are a couple ’em that are the best at it are are women. And so they excel and they’re gonna do well. Uh you know, it’s the church it’s a smaller church where the pastor does it all that Um, I wouldn’t want to be a part of that, but like that’s that’s where some churches are. We hire you to do the work of the ministry.

Mark:

Sure.

Troy:

That’s not our perspective at all. So I think um a woman could excel in that environment. And um and so I hope, you know, I’d be great. I’d love for Lizzie and Carly to mm to excel in that type of environment. And uh But yeah, it’s you can’t be shy about recruiting people, about t you you have to be t we talk about self-esteem and the confidence and all that. You get told no a lot. No, I can’t. And

Justin:

you know, I think about you know, so mm Mark The question you’re asking, you know, about women in leadership is very tied to the scripture Troy just quoted. Um in other words, uh Mark is not opposed to a woman being a head pastor and neither is Troy except for We try to honor what God’s word says and there’s some scripture that kind of indicates that that might be the case. So

we’re

that’s the wrestle. It’s not like Troy, are you okay with women being a leader over you?

Troy:

Yeah. You know, that’s not really the question.

Justin:

And I just want to clarify that for anyone who might listen who’s not familiar with that scripture. It’s not about our views of women in leadership generally ’cause I I’ve s

I’ve had several women uh bosses in my career and they’ve been better than most of the men.

Mark:

And so

Justin:

like yeah, I think women are great in leadership. It’s more about that specifically. lead pastor position that where it gets confusing in terms of what God’s word is. I guess from my perspective with my daughter, if she said, I I want to be you know head pastor of her church, Uh let me weigh this about things you could come to me and say you want to do.

Troy:

Yeah.

Justin:

That was pretty good.

Like

I’ll let you wrestle with God about whether you should or shouldn’t, but

Mark:

um But

Justin:

I’m pretty happy with that that choice to serve God in that capacity and to say this this is this is what I want to do. Um that being said, I’d yeah ha would want to provide the resources and and encourage them to to do it with a um a clean conscience, right? Like they believe that God’s you know, calling them to do that.

Troy:

Yeah.

Justin:

But yeah. I don’t know. I just I think about it in in in the the levels of things that your daughter could come to say, I got some news for you. It’s like I want to be late. Oh shit.

Mark:

Yes, great.

Justin:

Not really. I mean I think uh you know all of our daughters anyway we’re very confident they’ll do great things. I was mostly kidding, but that is yeah, that that’s not a very high on the list of worries in mine is whether she

she would aspire to that position that maybe theologically is You know what I mean?

Troy:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Troy:

Yeah, I agree. That’s

Justin:

how I see it.

Mark:

I think there is part of us who will tend to spend time what if And what is it about this? But I think also that’s also a part of getting to know other people and where they’re what they’re passionate about.

Troy:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because you know, when it comes into that dynamic of okay, what do you think about this and where does that come from? And you know, and what about what about your past family dynamic makes that a good thing, you know, or something to aspire to or passionate about. So I think it’s uh it’s always good to

Troy:

It’s funny we I’ve had this conversation with Carly. She and I kind of disagree and I’ve just chosen to trust her, but She goes to Liberty uh University in Lynchburg and it’s a Christian college and she’s majoring in Christian leadership. And I didn’t want her to. I’m like, Carly, you’re a great writer. Major in English, history, accounting, whatever. I wanted to have a different degree because I’ve never hired a staff member because of their Bible degree or their seminary degree. I’ve just found that Most of the time you can give yourself a seminary degree if you’re hungry, if you read. Not not not that I was po be opposed if she went to seminary and got a master’s or whatever.

Mark:

Sure.

Troy:

But um I don’t know. I don’t know. I’m I’m probably a little like Christian leadership. I’m just not sure you learn that in a class.

Any

kind of leadership degree Like that’s just life. You just have to lead. That’s one you can’t it’s like a welding degree. You know, I’m sure you learned a lot, but you gotta weld. You’ve gotta you’ve gotta do the thing uh you can learn theory, but you’ve got to actually do it. You know, so um I don’t know. I’m gonna let her do her thing and she’ll end up with a Christian leadership degree. I just don’t know how valuable I hope she

Justin:

comes home and just like just blasts like

just blows you out of the water and you’re like man I wish I would have gotten a Christian literature degree I would have been so much better off. But I think

Mark:

I think it is interesting too, because you know that that uh JP uh Jonathan Paducah out of

Troy:

you know

Mark:

you know no seminary but talented

Troy:

oh my god you know

Mark:

talented preacher you know Leader, pastor.

Troy:

That podcast is amazing. Yeah. Carly, that that podcast has probably influenced Carly’s life way more than my preaching.

Mark:

Sure.

Troy:

Like it’s really it’s it’s impacted her. Um, yeah, I was getting my feelings hurt the other day. She’s like, hey, I want to intern at JP Paclutis Church. What about generations?

Mark:

You just want to live a wake

Troy:

up seeking bit of magnolia.

Mark:

Did that shake your confidence just a bit there, Troy? Why does she want to go to somebody else’s church? No, but I hear you.

Troy:

Yeah.

Mark:

That’s interesting to think about. And I I appreciate you sharing from that context to be able to say, yeah. How do what do and what I think what we have for our children, you know, is so often influenced by what we desire to give them.

Troy:

Yeah.

Mark:

Or you know, to be for them. And there again, I’m so thankful for what God is able to do without me.

Troy:

Yes.

Mark:

You know, in in my children’s lives, both boys and girls, you know, for that whole context. and what he desires for them based on the passions he’s given them and my ability to encourage that.

Troy:

Carly ‘s she’ll call uh Liberty’s Amazing Place Um, but she’ll call, you know, and tell us, hey, JP Picloto spoke, Chapel, Sadie Robertson, Dave Ramsey, like all these like World renowned people. I’m like, man, I want to go to Liberty. People they bring in.

Mark:

No doubt.

Troy:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Well, thank you so much for being on and talking about the Bible’s the smoked meat and and some football. I think we got them all.

Mark:

I think we got some polarity in there too towards the end, you know, maybe a little bit. But yes.

Justin:

Yeah.

Troy:

Oh my pleasure, man. Thank you guys for doing this. This is cool.

Mark:

No, we we enjoy it.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And thanks for being here

Justin:

and sharing how you see it.

Mark:

Yeah. Yes. So this is how we see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C L I C K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.