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[Music] welcome to how I see it with me Mark

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Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a podcast that works to

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countercultural polarization through thoughtful [Music]

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conversations a lot of smart people go the best way to make the most impact is

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to have a laser focus yeah find your whatever it is focus focus on that and I

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admire people who can do that um I've always struggled uh I have a little ADHD in my

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life I I've struggled to have the kind of like all I do is prepare sermons well

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I find that I prepare sermons better when I've got a little when I've got a story to tell from a vacation I took

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from something that happened at the SmokeHouse from coaching my son's football team I don't know just somehow

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my life works better I have more joy um get to share my faith more when when

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that have that Dynamic at play I don't know if you've experienced that but I seem to do better I I think there's

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important you get too many plates you're spinning but if you can find the few things you're good at and and you know

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and make money on them and have joy and get a free meal to smoke SM house I mean

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like you know there's some blessings of what you do as a carpenter that wow I mean right like

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you're building your own home right now and uh yeah that's that's a huge blessing that most of us can't

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do yeah that's good um we all have our blessings that's right that's for sure

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it's fine in like I I know how to uh break podcast by

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fre not everyone do that but you know how to paint in addition to all this

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technology but he painting don't bring up painting well if this podcast thing

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doesn't work out have a fall back you have a fall back yes I got a place you can start I would rather do

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weddings all right uh I guess my question I have a question for you or

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some advice I'd like to you to offer potentially for guys in their early 20s

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wow you know think about your that part of your life the part of my life you remember me going through that

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transition of painting and what's next and whatever um like how do you convince

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them that failure is not only acceptable yeah uh but almost required and also

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great right like how do you convince them that this is part of your life that you should

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embrace and it's not going to you're you're not going to become you're not going to shrink into a little Manchild

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you know ego's going to completely be destroyed you know what I mean cuz we're so we're so precious in that

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age and if I may to add to that even as you would speak to one of your own children I'm thinking of you you know

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that's exactly what I thought when he mentioned that is I just had a conversation with Cameron my son is 22

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and is gainfully employed now he lives on his own matter of fact he was so

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excited he called me and he closed on a so he does timber acquisition somebody

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owns a 100 acres he goes He we uh cut the trees the mature Pines off your

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property and and their company uh has loggers takes them to The Sawmill and

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they make a profit you know between what they pay that landowner and what the Sawmill pays them and he's get he you

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know he makes a a cut off of that and he's done really well um um as you know

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somebody in his early 20s making more money than I ever made in my 20s and so but but I can see he's got a little bit

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of his dad in him and he's like you know Dad um I I I enjoy this don't know if I

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want to do it forever uh want to do it different than what he's seeing it so he's he's processing all those things

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with me and my advice to him was I love the thoughts you're having uh because he's like uh because he lives in Wilson

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North Carolina dad there's no good brisket in Wilson can we do a Smoke House and well you know like so the my

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advice I gave to him was look you're learning a lot CU he has a couple of bosses who've been in the industry for

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years one's a great Christian man and he's learning life skills not just logging skills from him so I'm like stay

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where you are stay at this commission level where you are uh because he he's

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talking about getting less of the health insurance and truck and stuff they provide and going full commission I'm

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like stay where you are do what you're doing for a couple years and and then

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um let's talk about you scratching that entrepreneurial itch uh you know

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whatever that looks like because I think at that age you know there just so much

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man I just guys who come into the Smokehouse and in their 20s and and

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there are freaks of nature who are in their 20s that can start billion dollar companies but most of us in our 20s

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think we know it all and we know nothing I mean I know when I became a pastor oh

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I wish I'd just shut up for the first five years and just listen to people who' been there like just learn make

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mistakes say dumb things in sermons apologize for them and learn from that deal write it down uh you know one of my

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favorite quotes uh Dawson tropman thoughts disentangle themselves when

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they pass through the lips and the fingertips so right when their stuff's foggy write it down um

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write down when you learn you know when you make a mistake you know Journal that

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write learn as much as you can listen as much as you can I think there's a reason

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Jesus is perfect and he began his ministry at 30 uh you know like there we just just gain life experience and um so

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it's yeah work for somebody make mistakes try things yeah yeah and I

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think it's tough even you know from from that in that era when you think about it and I think it's tougher than it was for

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you and I even because there are there is so much media nothing against that

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but you know there is this ability to compare myself you know with so many of the other freaks of nature as you put it

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you know it's like well where's mine you know how come I'm not doing that yeah and you know I think that pressure you

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know that's a great point is is so much higher than it was one of the curses I had as a young pastor

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you learn a lot at a church conference but you go to a church conference and the guy on stage is the pastor who

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pastors a church of 20,000 people he's written five books and has an amazing marriage and he has a podcast and and

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you're like gosh I'm an idiot you know and well no your church is doing good

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you're reaching people lives are being changed but you just compared yourself to that guy who's got incredible gifts

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and you know learn from him but don't compare yourself to him and it's just you know Malcolm gladwell's outliers was

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so such a great read because uh you learn you know it takes 10,000 hours of

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to be an expert in it but you know Steve Jobs and Bill Gates and Michael Jordan

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and some of those outliers they just happen to be at the right place at the right time they

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worked hard they became excellent in their field but there's a lot of it just

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it's just God's grace like Tim there's pastors who are better preachers than me

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but who are not in Brunswick County and they're not experiencing you know at 1,200 people their Sunday they're

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they're better preacher better leader than me and they're Pastor in a church of 200 I I mean I happen to be in a

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county that's growing really fast um not as fast as some some church you know

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like so um just man Bloom where you're planted uh be content with God's given

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you and that's I think something I've learned as a 53 53 year old man now that

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I'm trying to practice more than I ever have in my life just waking up in the morning getting my journal out starting

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the day just thank you thank you thank you Lord for just name in my blessings that gratitude is so huge if we can be

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grateful for what we have and what we instead of staring at what we don't have we just grate for what we have it's

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pretty incredible um what it does to our level of joy and contentment no doubt

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yeah yeah it's uh I think there's a big aspect to that that's just maturity and

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and time and experience and and seeing you know getting through the 20s to say

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you know it worked out um I think that brings some of that perspective I still think you know being in that age group

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like like Cameron was saying there's a hunger there's an itch and it's like you tell me to just don't be hungry or don't

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you know put Sab over that itch you'll be just fine it's like it's not working

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you know what I mean but but yeah I I think your advice is is so good in that

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um there there's this uh fear I think when you're in that age group that this

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is the time I have to build the thing that will be my life and if I miss it now the opportunities will be gone so by

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the time I'm 30 I'll be a painter the rest of my life kind of going back to my life like if I don't if I don't figure

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out right now I will forever be a painter and that's the last thing on this planet I want to do so I got to get

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out as soon as possible yeah and it's just that's not the truth and what I had

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Colonel Sanders started KFC Sanders yeah KFC in his was it 60s so definitely late

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in life yeah late in life Steve Jobs something like uh started Apple got fired from Apple came back his second

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run was way better than his yeah you know I mean just so many stories like that yeah just my own personal life like

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I did paint and then eventually moved out of that and you know that was due to some Grace some timing and the economy

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in 2008 saying people don't need to paint their house as much anymore you know forc to transition and I guess all

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that to say I didn't have to do Voodoo to get out of that like it just worked out and then you look at any number of

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guys who are past 20 and usually it worked out right and I think there's just this fear fear factor there that

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um I don't know I think that's one of the things I'd like to you know encourage that group is just chill it's

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gonna be okay you know what I love I love your your approach too it's I mean

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it's the same as my Approach in the restaurant it was like a lateral entry you know you painted but you you taught

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yourself website development you you didn't go you don't have a degree and

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what you do for a living like you uh just started doing it and in your part

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time you know need to make some extra money okay try this out yeah you might

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like it than your better than your full-time job you know and eventually you work your way into that yeah uh

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that's a that's a cool thing to do in referencing your 10,000 hours thing you can build 10,000 hours at in your hobby

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time yes you know what I mean oh so and that was one of the advice that one a good friend of mine gave Dave pet

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actually he's like you know if you spend two hours a day for two years you can become an expert in something he he read

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that from some quote somewhere oh interesting you know I'm painting but if I just spend an hour at night you know

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learning more and more about web development what I could be an expert in two years like all right that was uh I

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don't know for some reason that stuck stuck out to me and was a pretty big motivator but it's true like you can build those 10,000 hours to become that

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outlier while you know in your hobby time in your extracurricular time

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especially in your 20s when you have so much energy um do the thing that you you're that's

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safe right now but also spend that hobby time you know figuring out the next thing and that's that's a great thing

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too when did you learn to play the guitar come to think of it you weren't till late 20s yeah like 28 29 virtual

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worship leader right now now virtual virtual you're a late bloomer Man guitar

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web I mean all that as an adult Y and I think that's kind of yeah I guess a

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passion topic for me because I was I thought I missed the boat you know what I mean yeah and I had all I don't

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know so yeah I think I think that's kind of what I'm saying is like that's there's never a point I also read

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something really interesting that within any given lifetime you have basically three or four careers you could build oh

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yeah you know and I thought I'm like really that's an amazing thought because we we grew up in culture and and in the

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our families before ours where it's like you were a farmer and you were a farmer from the day you were born to the day you died and yeah uh or you went to

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college and then you were an accountant from from that point you know it's just like this is what you do and um that's

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not actually true like you there's enough time in your life to do many things and so you can build this career

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in like what you were saying and what I experienced with painting is you are building skills and learning things in

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this particular thing that will transfer so true right so you're building a your

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career over here the next one you're doing while you're doing this one because skills and the values that you

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learn through that are are transferable to the next thing and uh like you said

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uh you preach better when you have a story from The Smokehouse I also argue

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you know you do web development better when you got some values from painting houses you know what I mean like in my

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life that's been true um anyway yeah no it's good have you ever heard the rise

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and fall of marsill podcast oh yes I have I'll listen to most of them did you yeah yeah that's great I would love to

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hear your thoughts on it um okay it's very broad question but I am curious

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yeah no it's good it's good uh the there was a little bit

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of uh fun guilt because it's Church gossip you know so like I was like a

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little bit like should I be listening to this you know because I I hate it

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when if there's problems at Generations church and people you know instead of

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talking to people they talk about people and I felt like there was a little bit of that going on uh cuz it just airing

15:05
all of Mark Driscoll's dirty laundry but at the same time I thought I was glad I

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listen to it and I didn't listen to all of them maybe a few new ones I I haven't listened to because I haven't listened

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to in a while but um but I it is one of those podcasts you walk away and you

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were like you thought about it a lot afterwards and you're like okay is there any of that generation's church or in my

15:30
life that would cause me to go down that road because clearly Mark Driscoll

15:37
brilant like um I'm we're doing a series in Ruth right now generations and and I

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remember when I first studied Ruth I use some of Mark Driscoll's commentary or notes like I used to listen to him

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occasionally because he was funny he was spoke with such uh Authority like you

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just believe what he said and and then when you hear the stories of the way he led and what was going on behind the

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scenes it like whoa you know and so there was

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definitely I was really glad there's accountability at Generation Church so glad that people

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feel the freedom to tell me when I'm being an idiot my wife probably being the number one person but there's others

16:23
as well who uh I mean I think either one of you guys if you saw me behaving in a

16:28
a certain way you would you'd pull me beside pull me aside behind closed door

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and say I saw something I heard something it bothered me matter of fact you've done that to me on a couple

16:39
different occasions thanks Justin um but but but I think those conversations keep

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us from going from having a Mars Hill podcast you know where um there's

16:51
just crazy stuff going on and it's so weird man like thing about Mark Driscoll

16:58
I thought about Elephant Room I don't know if you guys ever saw the Elephant Room it was put on by James McDonald it

17:03
was amazing time because we had this panel of brilliant pastors who were they

17:09
were just threw out a topic or question and they would answer it it was like the elephant in the room type of topic right

17:16
it that's why they call it elepant exactly so James McDonald hosted and it

17:21
was Mark Driscoll was one of the panel Perry Noble um let me see uh Matt ch

17:31
hibl really no there's like there was two or three others but about half of the pastors who were on the panel have

17:38
now either resigned and and Chandler his is a temporary he's coming back a love

17:44
Matt Chandler but he's a village church but Driscoll's like you know Marill

17:50
podcast Perry Noble wow and he's a pastor now again thank God but but you

17:56
know just like had those um what in the world happened and and you could

18:01
definitely sense just watching them because they're all very smart guys there was a little bit of arrogance

18:07
there and I think that's probably the biggest challenge that those pastors at

18:14
that you know level with the mega church and they're almost a celebrity Pastor that is there is there a check on

18:22
that pride is there somebody in your life holding you accountable just reminding you that you're not Jesus you

18:28
follow him and so um it was good I I

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mean I don't know if there's specifics you want to talk about in the podcast CU it you know there's I don't know seven

18:38
or eight of them but it was just that's the thing that got me was man nobody's

18:44
in the room with Driscoll saying dude um what in the world I can't

18:50
believe you said that you did that and basically anybody who would do that he

18:57
got rid of them M and that should have been the red flag right there because people left but the church was growing

19:05
money was still coming in all you know the the era was going yeah to so so what

19:12
he would always point to right yeah that's right Mark how dare you look at this Arrow it's up and to the

19:19
right yeah yeah so the results yeah the results yeah yeah I that's good yeah I I

19:28
when I hear that podcast it definitely makes me think of I I think you've read uh some books about kind of Germany

19:34
before Hitler right and kind of the culture that was there and it sadly kind

19:41
of reminds me of that in the sense of like well you know this see the results

19:47
see what's happening and and and kind of how easily we start to boil you know yes

19:52
because we're a frog right in that in that water it's that I don't I think that was the sobering takeaway for me is

19:58
that where you look at it and go how crazy is that they didn't have anyone to hold them why didn't they just see the

20:04
red flags and speak up and I don't think it's personally that simple I think it's

20:10
complicated in that when you are in an atmosphere and that it's starts one way

20:15
and continues to uh slowly boil get hotter and hotter hotter you don't necessarily know you're in boiling water

20:21
and people from outside go hey just so you know you're in boiling water you're like uh no cuz look at the results or

20:28
whatever you know whatever it is and I think I I guess my take away from that

20:33
was none of us are that far from that no it takes the right circumstances and the

20:39
right person and Leadership you know whether I'm that person and I end up you know being that prideful and arrogant or

20:45
I'm a person in that atmosphere is like I want to ride this this train right like hop on and ride this thing to the

20:52
sunset you know what I mean it's we're not that far from that we're not and I think with extremely gifted people

20:59
like a Mark D like an Adolf Hitler who had this incredible ability to inflame

21:06
the masses who had this oratory uh about him that it's easy to get lost in that

21:13
Haze and to ignore the chinks and the armor because you see the the progress

21:21
you see the and you know Hitler was his first couple years you saw I mean

21:27
obviously his hatred for Jews whatever but like the but but even his bad

21:32
decision making you saw him the first couple years but he was

21:38
undefeated so he ignored he began to ignore his his uh military

21:44
advisers got rid of the ones who opposed him so that when he made the stupid

21:50
mistakes because the dude had Europe and I mean it was his but he made the stupid

21:56
mistake let's go invade Russia let's fight this two front War there was nobody around him left to go that's a

22:03
dumb idea cuz he'd already gotten rid of them and so um defeat was inevitable and

22:10
I think Drisco you kind of see the same thing like when you get rid of all the people who disagree with

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you yeah defeat is on the way yeah your own Pride will take care of the rest it

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really will it really will yeah that's right there's something it's interesting as you were thinking about that too I'm

22:28
even thinking about like Jos Maxwell the law of the lid oh yeah you know and I'm thinking about how sometimes it's like

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those people who are best able to influence us will sometimes even by

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attrition get frustrated with the fact that that lid is there and they go other

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places they do and we lose that good influence yeah that's right of those

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people who can talk to us at that point and I think it's a yeah that it kind of

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it pairs with that arrogance yeah that you know I I need to be I'm I know it

23:05
all and I don't have that ability to even accept those influence from people that are close to me so you make a great

23:13
point and I think about to go back to football yes um Tom Brady you know when

23:21
he was with Bill bellich there was a constant conflict we know now you know we hear the just you

23:29
know this but there was a 10 run 10year Dynasty that came from that conflict you

23:36
see it in sports you know when LeBron goes and makes his own team and you know

23:42
picks his own players M the Lakers aren't very good like we seem to do

23:48
better when there's conflict when there's somebody looking Us in the eyes going you know your crap does stink and

23:55
here here's why and we we we just do better and um live life better and it's

24:02
hard at the time cuz nobody likes to be rebuked but I think we're we're a lot

24:08
more successful in life and well I think even that comes with age you know I

24:14
think in our culture we're so conflict averse yes you know yes and we don't

24:20
recognize that oh no there's a tremendous amount of learning yeah that goes along with each conflict not only

24:26
just for me personally but we learn from each other in that conflict we talk about conflict builds intimacy you know

24:33
and when we're in Conflict I get to know where you're coming from yeah and it's

24:38
important to me at that point right and because I'm engaging in that and I want to know yeah but in that arrogance I

24:46
think our tendency can be who are you to question me and no I don't frankly care

24:51
to know and you know and you can go your way and I'll go mine and I think that's when we miss out yeah that's I think so

24:59
often that's where we it leads to that you know that polar opposition yes is we

25:04
don't care enough to stay involved in the conflict to be able to say okay yeah

25:10
help me understand that yeah yeah Galatians um just you know read recently

25:16
Paul this is Peter the rock you know like you know preached the sermon of

25:23
Pentecost Y and Paul just rebuked him and from that beautiful rebuke came the

25:29
New Testament understanding of Grace that you know okay we don't obey the law

25:35
to make ourselves righteous we trust Christ and he makes us righteous and

25:40
that just so many good things happen from conflict no doubt and from rebukes and from yeah I I think there's a

25:47
probably an interesting factor that I'd love to hear a study about with people

25:54
like that in the sense of fear of conflict I look at um Brady and Bill

25:59
bellich and I don't see lack of confidence I see inherent confidence and

26:06
maybe they had upbringing similar to years where they didn't you know they just kind of had that built into them

26:12
yeah or they built it some way or another but at this stage at the point where they came together there was

26:17
something in them that said if he disagrees with me it doesn't lessen who I am does that make sense yeah where I

26:24
look at like a Mark Driscoll and I feel like I see like you mentioned chinks in the armor I feel

26:30
like his Persona was built on top of an insecurity yes right and I feel like I

26:37
struggle with that I struggle with insecurity I didn't have an upbringing similar to yours and I struggled I still

26:42
struggle with confidence so when conflict comes and someone disagrees with me it it gets all the way into that

26:50
core like you're not good enough or whatever and you know I fight that and that's that's part of my journey right

26:57
yeah but think about being in those same atmospheres with someone like Bill bellich or whatever and I think it would

27:03
be very I think I'd move on I don't think I could handle that kind of conflict because it would erode at that

27:09
inner self and I think of someone like Mark Driscoll and if it were me listening to that podcast there's a lot

27:15
of if for me maybe I'd do the same thing sure because when someone uh you know

27:21
question the way I'm doing things it would hurt my feelings and I go well look at the results and I don't care

27:27
what you I could toally see from my perspective how you get there so I do

27:32
wonder if there's something about that insecurity aspect and I also

27:37
you know um I think there's positives in and there and there's a there's a within

27:43
security when you get the positive affirmations it unfortunately feeds it

27:50
insecurity in an unhealthy way and a guy like Mark Driscoll grows a church of

27:55
10,000 I mean I I know just from standing in the lobby uh I get some

28:02
people you know think Troy KN is the most amazing you know like I get those

28:07
and I and I have to uh process that in the right way it's very encouraging it

28:13
feels so good to me because I just poured my heart out in a sermon so my cup is empty so that encouragement fills

28:20
my cup but I can't believe everything I hear and I think probably Mark Driscoll

28:27
believed D everything he heard at some point or at least too much of the you're

28:33
amazing mark this church is growing because of you and I can see Mark sitting in his study going who do they

28:39
think they are opposing me this church is growing because of my great preaching

28:45
and he's kind of got a point but that doesn't justify right you shutting down

28:52
everybody who said you know something's wrong here so yeah it's oh our flesh is

28:58
weak and we just have to just stay so close that's why the best thing we can

29:04
do every single morning get that cup of coffee and get that Bible and go okay Holy Spirit I'm listening because God

29:11
will rebuke us quicker than anything else he'll he'll remind us of that person we need to go and apologize to

29:19
he'll remind us of some conversation where we said something stupid if we just stay connected to him um so so

29:26
important yeah yeah that's really good and I think there's a there's a difference between getting that journal

29:32
out and saying God you won't believe what happened to me today someone said I you know did this thing wrong and you

29:38
need to rebuke them or whatever versus saying you know like David you know show

29:44
me my heart you know reveal any wicked way in me you know like and I because I

29:49
think even that formula of sitting down with a cup of coffee in your Bible and a journal can result in still a markris

29:56
thing if you're if you treat God as your ally instead of God yeah instead of the

30:01
creator of the universe who who who allows you to be in his presence yes you

30:08
treat him as like you know I'm kind of you're a front man you know I mean like I'm out here and you're kind of behind

30:14
me supporting me by pulling all these strings yes right because we we

30:19
naturally gravitate towards putting us in the center of the universe and Jesus God the Holy Spirit are there to support

30:25
that yeah and yeah yeah I'm with you yeah been reading some Wayne gudum

30:31
lately and some just some Doctrine um and was reading about God's

30:36
Independence right after the election viewing just like keeping it keep it real interesting yeah that's read watch

30:44
election coverage that's what I do that's right no uh but reading God's

30:51
Independence um what an amazing Doctrine so a lot of people think you know God

30:57
created us because he needs us like he's lonely or something no God doesn't need

31:03
anything he is completely independent self-sufficient in himself needs no but

31:10
God made us because he chose to love us my value

31:15
is is found not in that I'm needed by God but that God values me God chose me

31:23
and God even though he's independent he wants a relationship with me doesn't need it want wants it and I think our

31:29
view of God and the way we are our Theology of God his sovereignty his

31:36
independence his his eternality his immutability doesn't change those things

31:42
affect our lives and the way we make decisions um we're doing a a series next

31:48
year about God God is or you know something like that just kind of talking

31:54
about some of those attributes of God that's awesome yeah I was thinking about it even in that context though as you

32:00
think about past you know we we're going through rof now and you know you've talked about the influence of tab in

32:08
your life can you speak to that part for you even about like women in leadership

32:13
and how you personally rustled with that even as a pastor yeah because I'm thinking it really kind of connects in

32:19
so many ways of how you know I do believe you know it's the the two becoming one it's it's half You Know Tab

32:27
offers you half of God's brain speak to that as a husband as a as a as a father

32:33
of a daughter you know growing up talk to that from your perspective how you

32:38
find that balance well I think definitely a marriage is uh part of the

32:45
reason we do it is because we become better when we're connected to that

32:50
person uh we're better together than we are individually and I we say that sometimes but I think it's really true

32:56
I'm definitely a better human being uh not just because my physical needs are

33:02
fulfilled or whatever but beyond that like the perspective that tab brings to My Life um the the the wisdom and gosh

33:14
it's hard because I'll I'll meet people occasionally at Generations who are coming by themselves their spouse

33:20
doesn't come uh or maybe they attend a different church but a lot of times they just don't come at all and that's got to

33:26
be really hard because that Oneness that we have part of it is a spiritual Oneness she makes me better

33:33
a better follower of Christ because that so um I don't know if that answer your

33:39
question about leadership I and I guess that's where I'm coming from you know when I think about it from my

33:45
perspective you know I think about my daughter Lizzy you know growing up and having this this career path and I'm

33:52
thinking about it in that context of you know should she be a should she go into

33:59
psychology you know and I'm thinking about this and I'm thinking about it even from generations and how you

34:04
develop that female aspect yeah of leadership because I think it's easy if

34:10
I may say to bring people around me who are like me yeah you know in leadership

34:16
and sometimes I might tend to ostracize those who are different from me and I think that can impact from a female

34:23
dynamic as well because there is such a difference and speak to that how you work or wrestle with including that yeah

34:31
I I mean I think um I didn't at Generations I didn't go out and go we

34:37
need more women on staff for for me it's always been it's interesting like a

34:42
seminary degree will not help you get a job at Generation Church on staff sure

34:47
like I've always looked for a great volunteer who's very fruitful who's got

34:53
a great administrative abilities who is team Builder who recruits people you

34:59
know that's that's the the DNA I'm looking for sometimes it happens to be a

35:05
woman sometimes it happens to be a man it's pretty cool that as I sit in a staff meeting at the church that we have

35:12
a good mix of both and so we get a good because if it's just men you know we're

35:18
farting and burping and we're you know telling we're talking about football half the time or you know whatever like

35:24
we'll do ministry but it'll just take a different um flavor than if it's you know you have

35:30
women in the room you're you're a little more careful what you say and and you get a perspective that's probably a

35:36
little more compassionate you see some of uh uh the ladies in the room and some

35:42
of their gifts and um although it's weird like you see men and women

35:48
changing a lot today in the the way they interact but um but it's yeah I mean it

35:55
definitely adds to generation um now there's all kinds of theology

36:01
about women Ministry I don't know if you want to get into that but um but I think it you know at our church it's

36:06
definitely a um you know definitely a place where you can Thrive as a man or a

36:13
woman and yeah and hopefully Lizzie will if she senses God calling her to that um

36:20
I think it's a great time to be a woman in Ministry in in America there's lots of

36:25
opportunities to do that uh so I I'm not sure a senior if she

36:32
aspires to be a senior pastor a lead pastor at a church in my theology

36:37
there's probably some limitations there but everywhere else I mean I think yeah and I and I think that's part of it

36:44
because I in in my family I have many strong females who are lead pastors okay

36:51
you know who is and therefore you know I have to recognize okay as my daughter

36:57
she's going to see that influence yes and she's going to experience that and you know and you know she's also grown

37:04
up in generations to where she hasn't necessarily seen that the same way I have whereas I grew up with some you

37:11
know women leading in Ministry yeah and you know and I it's it's it's been it's

37:16
typically makes for an interesting conversation oh I'm sure between the two of us as her father I desire for her to

37:25
be all that God is calling her to be yeah you know and and so it makes and

37:30
that's where I come from you know even as you have Cari you know whether she you know follows in a Ministry Dynamic

37:37
she aspires to yes yeah and I'm I'd be interested even to you know how would

37:43
how would you caution her or even possibly say well I'm not sure I agree with that view

37:51
for you based on what I see as a possible limitation scriptural

37:56
limitation can you speak to well I I think there's all kinds of books if I was going to

38:02
tell her I'd say Carly read these three books and they's so all across the board

38:09
different perspectives on how they in interpret First Timothy too sure woman

38:14
shall not speak or use SE authority over a man in the church some interpret that is some um would say a woman could speak

38:23
in the church or teach but not be a senior pastor and others go now it's wide open whatever different

38:29
perspectives and so I would you know encourage her to read those I I think just in terms of just

38:36
like a woman being on staff the number one thing that I think a church like

38:43
Generations I'll say our church like ours number one thing on a staff for me staff member is they are are they an

38:51
equipper if you're on staff of generations I don't want you do in Ministry I want you equip other people

38:58
to do ministry so the best staff members we have are those who are

39:04
constantly recruiting training pouring their life into our volunteers so they

39:10
can do the work of the ministry um and those are the ones and honestly probably on our staff a couple of them that are

39:17
the best at it are are women and so they Excel and they're going to do well uh

39:23
you know it's the church it's a smaller Church where the pastor does it all mhm that um I wouldn't want to be a part of

39:30
that but like that's that's where some churches are we hire you to do the work of the ministry sure that's not our

39:36
perspective at all so I think um a woman could excel in that environment and um

39:43
and so I hope you know I'd be great I'd love for Lizzie and Carly to to excel in

39:48
that type of environment and uh but yeah it's you can't be shy about recruiting

39:54
people about you have to be we talk about self-esteem and the confidence and all that you get told no

40:02
a lot no I can't go the next one you

40:07
know so and you know I think about you know so Mark the question you're asking

40:13
you know about women in leadership is very tied to the scripture Troy just quoted u in other words uh Mark is not

40:20
opposed to a woman being a head pastor and neither is Troy except for we try to honor what God's word says and there's

40:27
some scripture that kind of indicates that that might be the case so where that's the wrestle it's not like Troy

40:33
are you okay with women being a leader over you you that's not really the question and I just want to clarify that

40:39
for anyone who might listen who is not familiar with that scripture it's not about our views of women in leadership

40:45
generally because I I've SE I've had several women uh bosses in my career and

40:51
they've been better than most of the men and so like yeah I think women are great in leadership it's more about that

40:57
specifically lead Pastor position that where it gets confusing in terms of what

41:02
God's word is I guess from my perspective with my daughter if she said I want to be you know a head pastor of

41:08
her church let me weigh this about things you could come to me and say you want to

41:13
do yeah that was pretty good like I'll let you wrestle with God about whether

41:18
you should or shouldn't but um but I'm pretty happy with that that choice to serve God in that capacity and to say

41:25
this this is this is what I want to do um that being said i' yeah would want to

41:31
provide the resources and and encourage them to to do it with a um a clean

41:37
conscience right like they believe that God's you know calling them to do that yeah but yeah I don't know I just I

41:44
think about it in in in the levels of things that your daughter could come to say I got some news for you that's right

41:50
I want to be oh she yes great I relief

41:58
not really I mean I think you know all of our daughters and we're very confident they'll do great things mostly

42:04
kidding but that is yeah that that's not a very high on the list of worries in

42:09
mine is whether she she would aspire to that position that maybe theologically is you know what I mean I

42:16
don't know yeah yeah I agree and and I think I think there is part of us who

42:22
will tend to spend time what if and what is it about this

42:28
but I think also that's also part of getting to know other people and where what they're passionate about yeah

42:34
because you know when it comes into that Dynamic of okay what do you think about this and where does that come from and

42:39
you know and what about what about your past family Dynamic makes that a good

42:45
thing you know or something to Aspire to or passionate about so I think it's a it's always good to it's funny we I've

42:52
had this conversation with Carly she and I kind of disagree and I've just chosen to trust her but she goes to Liberty uh

42:59
University in Lynchburg and it's Christian college and she's majoring in Christian leadership and I didn't want

43:05
her to I'm like Carly you're a great writer majoring English

43:10
History accounting whatever I want her to have a different degree because I've

43:16
never hired a staff member because of their Bible degree or their Seminary degree I've just found that most of the

43:24
time you can give yourself a seminary degree if you're hungry if you read not

43:30
not that I was be opposed if she went to Seminary and got a Masters or whatever but um I don't know I don't know I'm I'm

43:38
probably a little like Christian leadership I'm just not sure you learn that in the class any kind of leadership

43:45
degree like that's just life you just have to lead that's one you can't it's

43:50
like a welding degree you know I'm sure you learned a lot but you got to weld

43:55
you've got to you've got to do the thing uh you can learn theory but you've got to actually do it you know so um I don't

44:04
know I'm going to let her do her thing and she'll end up with a Christian leadership degree I just don't know how

44:09
valuable is I hope she comes home and just like just blast like just blows you

44:14
out of the water you're like man I wish I would have gotten a Christian Christian leadership degree so much

44:20
better but I think I think it is interesting too because you know that that uh JP uh Jonathan Paduka out yeah

44:27
you know you know no Seminary but talented you know talented preacher you

44:33
know leader Pastor that podcast is yeah is amazing yeah Carly that that podcast

44:40
has probably influenced Carly's life way more than my preaching sure like it's really it's it's impacted her and um

44:48
yeah was my feelings hurt the other day she's like hey I want to intern at JP peut Church what about Generations

44:58
yeah you just want to live him W go to Magnolia did that shake your confidence

45:04
just a bit there Troy just kid that's right why does she want to go to somebody else's church that's right no

45:12
but I hear you yeah that's interesting to think about and I I appreciate you sharing from that context to be able to

45:17
say yeah how do what do and what I think what we have for our children you know

45:23
is so often influenced by what we desire to give them or you know to be for them

45:31
and there again I'm so thankful for what God is able to do without me yes you

45:36
know in in our children's lives both boys and girls you know in that whole context and what he desires for them

45:42
based on the passions he's given them and yeah my ability to encourage that

45:48
Carly's she'll call Liberty's amazing place um but she'll call you know and

45:55
tell us hey JP p spoke Chapel Sadie Robertson Dave Ramsey like all these

46:00
like world-renowned people I'm like man I want to go to Liberty it's amaz people they bring in

46:08
no doubt yeah yeah well thank you so much for being on and talking about the

46:14
Bibles the smoked meat and and some football I think we got them all I think we got some polarity in there too

46:20
towards the end you know maybe a little bit but yes yes oh my pleasure man thank

46:26
you guys for doing this this this is cool no we we enjoy it and thanks for being here and sharing how you see it

46:32
yeah yes so this is how we see [Music]

46:38
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